The realization that Sora probably knew everything that he could die makes the KH3 ending for me even sadder.



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS

Nukara

Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
281
Awards
0
Age
21
Location
Russia.
Recently reading the tumblr post where the scene analysis on the keyblade graveyard was at the end, the game and the author of the text claimed that Sora knew he would die. What I really believe. What if Sora knew about his death at the moment where he met the young Xehanort in the world of Big Hero 6? Another question was whether Riku and the others (with the exception of Mickey) knew about this?
In general, any reminder of Sora hurts me now (Plus the recent things for Avatars in UX are related to him) and even if he comes back in the future while he is dead. I do not know about others and did anyone have the same feelings?
 

Face My Fears

She's not an "it"!
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
3,246
Awards
0
I just beat KH3 again and went through the Keyblade Graveyard sequence. I'm pretty sure that Sora knew he could/would die using the Power of Waking to save Kairi. After they died the first time around at the start of the Keyblade Graveyard, I think it really hit Sora - true love and sacrifice; realizing what death actually is.

Something tells me that Xehanort himself knew that Sora would die at the end of it all. Maybe the Master of Masters told him (but kept it vague making Xehanort think he does the deed)? Young Xehanort even tells Sora something along those lines after you kill him.

Knowing that Sora probably was aware that he was about to genuinely die -- not turn into a heartless, or some flash of light, or fall into the realm of darkness, but actually die -- makes me feel for the Sora/Kairi relationship even more, and really like that the series is going in the direction of actual death. It makes it feel like real stakes can be on the line in the future.
 

Muke

whatever
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Messages
6,089
Awards
35
Location
Vienna
  • Savage Nymph
  • Key of Destiny
  • Graceful Assassin
  • Come So Far
  • The Gambler of Fate
  • Melodious Nocturne
makes me feel for the Sora/Kairi relationship even more, and really like that the series is going in the direction of actual death. It makes it feel like real stakes can be on the line in the future.
I mean is death really a real stake? They all got revived anyway through magical time travel mumbo jumbo, who’s to say it won’t happen again?
 

Divine Past

Bronze Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2013
Messages
1,281
Awards
7
Location
NYC
  • Steadfast Heart
  • Ever Gentle and Kind
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • Quack Attack
  • Rising Star
  • Plum Goofy
I mean is death really a real stake? They all got revived anyway through magical time travel mumbo jumbo, who’s to say it won’t happen again?

I will say Sora killing himself in KH1 for Kairi was more emotional because A) He physically stabbed himself in the heart in front of his friends B) He had no idea what was going to happen to him after the stabby stabby.
 

DarkosOverlord

Bronze Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
2,808
Awards
4
Age
24
Location
Rome, Italy
  • Keyblade Master
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • The Foreteller
  • Savage Nymph
I will say Sora killing himself in KH1 for Kairi was more emotional because A) He physically stabbed himself in the heart in front of his friends B) He had no idea what was going to happen to him after the stabby stabby.
Yeah.
The "dumb smile" he gives Donald and Goofy there works wonders because it has completely different meaning than the first time and because there were stakes to it (despite how quickly it was resolved).

In KH III it feels like another thing to cross off the list.
Even without knowing the newest plot devices that will happen to ensure Sora's return, the player already knows 4-5 different methods to bring him back.

Crazy thought that just popped into my mind: maybe it would've even been better if they didn't play that scene so seriously as they did, and Sora was just his optimistic self. At least then everyone else not giving two craps about Kairi would've been less irritating, and it would've lulled the player into a false sense of "yeah, everything's going to be okay" only to see Sora disappearing at the end.
By playing it dramatic since the beginning, it's like you're asking me to relive every single instance in which "death" didn't matter.
 

Oracle Spockanort

the only villain on staff
Staff member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
32,261
Awards
54
Age
27
Location
California
Website
twitter.com
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • 15th Anniversary
  • Just Short of the Mark
  • Advanced Chain of Memories
  • Beauty Within
  • No Name
I guess in the moment of playing it is emotional, but there is no permanence when it comes to death in this series. The knowledge that his death is going to just get reversed in time for whatever crazy stuff starts happening in the new saga with the Foretellers takes the wind out of his sacrifice.

Like I will say that it is sad. It literally sucks the energy out of the ending of KH3 and makes fans feel awful, but again at the end of the day we know he’s coming back. I can’t feel completely devastated by that.
 

DarkosOverlord

Bronze Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
2,808
Awards
4
Age
24
Location
Rome, Italy
  • Keyblade Master
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • The Foreteller
  • Savage Nymph
Oh right, I guess having literally the next thing after Sora's gone being supposedly dead people coming back wasn't the greatest pairing too, haha.

It's this middle way that's detrimental to the moment: I can't despair over Sora being gone because I know he'll be back, and I can't just emotionally stroll along because it IS a sad moment.
I don't even need Sora to be gone for good (I think it would be harmful in the long run), but if only I had some concrete negative consequences for his actions (and I needed them now, not when the next title will drop).

For now, I just feel like Sora's on vacation. It's the DDD ending all over again.
 

FudgemintGuardian

"Indeeeeeeeeeeeeed."
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
5,654
Awards
32
  • The Foreteller
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Savage Nymph
  • Come So Far
  • Beauty Within
  • O, Purest of Hearts
Crazy thought that just popped into my mind: maybe it would've even been better if they didn't play that scene so seriously as they did, and Sora was just his optimistic self. At least then everyone else not giving two craps about Kairi would've been less irritating, and it would've lulled the player into a false sense of "yeah, everything's going to be okay" only to see Sora disappearing at the end.
By playing it dramatic since the beginning, it's like you're asking me to relive every single instance in which "death" didn't matter.
This would have been great. Instead of pretending the bajillion methods of bringing someone back doesn't exist so we can have some fake drama, have that knowledge affect how the good guys act.
 

Oracle Spockanort

the only villain on staff
Staff member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
32,261
Awards
54
Age
27
Location
California
Website
twitter.com
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • 15th Anniversary
  • Just Short of the Mark
  • Advanced Chain of Memories
  • Beauty Within
  • No Name
Besides his vanishing act, we really don’t see any consequences for Sora’s actions in relation to Sora himself. He’s in the “abyss”, but what does that mean? What state is Sora in? Is he emotionally in a bad place as well? What is he experiencing that makes his sacrifice hurt all the more?

By having the visual of Shibuya in the secret ending only serves to tease and not to properly set up the audiences understanding of where Sora stands after his sacrifice. We can assume only if we are meant to believe that this is related to TWEWY’s Shibuya. Is Shibuya even the “abyss”?

We are missing all of that context.
 

Face My Fears

She's not an "it"!
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
3,246
Awards
0
Yeah.
The "dumb smile" he gives Donald and Goofy there works wonders because it has completely different meaning than the first time and because there were stakes to it (despite how quickly it was resolved).

In KH III it feels like another thing to cross off the list.
Even without knowing the newest plot devices that will happen to ensure Sora's return, the player already knows 4-5 different methods to bring him back.

Crazy thought that just popped into my mind: maybe it would've even been better if they didn't play that scene so seriously as they did, and Sora was just his optimistic self. At least then everyone else not giving two craps about Kairi would've been less irritating, and it would've lulled the player into a false sense of "yeah, everything's going to be okay" only to see Sora disappearing at the end.
By playing it dramatic since the beginning, it's like you're asking me to relive every single instance in which "death" didn't matter.
I mean they made it different though and creepy (to me at least). Showing the Reaper Heartless and Young Xehanort going out of his way to let Sora know that it is a different kind of heartless made to usher hearts to the afterlife, let alone creating The Final World where Chirithy informs Sora about death and that he pretty much died if it weren't for Kairi. Compared to KH1 where we knew that Sora would turn into a heartless, KH3 was actually addressing actual death. Sure, in KH1 we knew that Sora would survive and the scene was done way better, but I like the direction (at least I hope) that the series is going with ACTUAL death.

What you described for the ending happened to me lol. I thought that everyone was so nonchalant about Kairi's death because they probably thought they could reverse it easily, which explains Riku's line about going back to Yen Sid's. So when Sora went off, I was pretty comfortable and happy thinking we'd get the big happy ending with everyone... and then Sora disappears and I break down.

Besides his vanishing act, we really don’t see any consequences for Sora’s actions in relation to Sora himself. He’s in the “abyss”, but what does that mean? What state is Sora in? Is he emotionally in a bad place as well? What is he experiencing that makes his sacrifice hurt all the more?

By having the visual of Shibuya in the secret ending only serves to tease and not to properly set up the audiences understanding of where Sora stands after his sacrifice. We can assume only if we are meant to believe that this is related to TWEWY’s Shibuya. Is Shibuya even the “abyss”?

We are missing all of that context.
If you consider that the ending is just Sora vanishing and we have no other information to go off of because it's meant for the next game. The Shibuya stuff is just teaser, so I don't think it's fair to expect them to explain what Shibuya is or Sora's state of mind or what's going on in a very short teaser trailer.

Another Side, Another Story set nothing up except for someone who looked like Riku fighting some guy with Oathkeeper and Oblivion in a world we never saw before, with both wearing black coats. Chain of Memories would explain the black coats and KH2 would explain Roxas. But just from beating KH1, there was no way to link that Another Side, Another Story was about the consequence of Sora's sacrifice at Hollow Bastion. At least we know Shibuya must be a consequence of his abuse of the Power of Waking due to what we know from The World Ends With You and what Young Xehanort said before.
 
Last edited:

Zettaflare

Ice Queen
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
10,206
Awards
2
Location
California
  • Anguis Union
  • Nothing's Like Before
Besides his vanishing act, we really don’t see any consequences for Sora’s actions in relation to Sora himself. He’s in the “abyss”, but what does that mean? What state is Sora in? Is he emotionally in a bad place as well? What is he experiencing that makes his sacrifice hurt all the more?

By having the visual of Shibuya in the secret ending only serves to tease and not to properly set up the audiences understanding of where Sora stands after his sacrifice. We can assume only if we are meant to believe that this is related to TWEWY’s Shibuya. Is Shibuya even the “abyss”?

We are missing all of that context.
I dont think Shibuya is the Abyss. I think Sora ending up in that city saved him from ending up in the place Young Xehanort intended for him to go. He has a chance at returning to the land of the living through the Reaper's Game. Were had he ended up in the Abyss he could have been lost for good
 

Divine Past

Bronze Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2013
Messages
1,281
Awards
7
Location
NYC
  • Steadfast Heart
  • Ever Gentle and Kind
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • Quack Attack
  • Rising Star
  • Plum Goofy
Knowing that Sora probably was aware that he was about to genuinely die -- not turn into a heartless, or some flash of light, or fall into the realm of darkness, but actually die -- makes me feel for the Sora/Kairi relationship even more, and really like that the series is going in the direction of actual death. It makes it feel like real stakes can be on the line in the future.
But if actual death can just be undone then I don't know much fans can really invest in a character dying at least at this point of the saga. Like sure it can be sad but I don't think death is as scary as Ven being in a coma for 10 years. Or at the very least I don't see why death needs to be played up when it's reversible when Nomura has written sad outcomes for heroes before like what ended up happening to the BBS trio at the end of the game.
 

Face My Fears

She's not an "it"!
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
3,246
Awards
0
But if actual death can just be undone then I don't know much fans can really invest in a character dying at least at this point of the saga. Like sure it can be sad but I don't think death is as scary as Ven being in a coma for 10 years. Or at the very least I don't see why death needs to be played up when it's reversible when Nomura has written sad outcomes for heroes before like what ended up happening to the BBS trio at the end of the game.
Well we only saw death undone because Sora went back in time and had Namine contact Lingering Will to change the future; all of this was only possible because Kairi was able to hold Sora back from actually dying. Everyone else had actually died. So I don't think there will always be the "undone" option.

Although I do agree that Nomura has had sadder scenarios happen than "death", most notably what happens to Xion in Days (is this actual death?) and Roxas rejoining with Sora. I think this whole death thing is actually more useful in developing Sora's character and maturing him. He's always been goofy and carefree, but now he's faced with actual consequences and I am interested to see what direction that takes his character. We all know Sora won't actually die (unless it was like the confirmed last game), but I think it will be helpful for his character to grow from this and Nomura can use this as a tool to mature the series and make it a little more serious. Games, people's attitudes, and the world has changed so much since KH1 was released. The endlessly optimistic and happy protagonist isn't really going to cut it in 2019.
 

Veevee

Active member
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
Messages
736
Awards
8
Location
darkness within darkness
  • Red Travels the Farthest
  • Savage Nymph
  • The Gambler of Fate
  • 15th Anniversary
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5+2.5 ReMIX
  • Unicornis Union
Honestly, it made me feel nothing. We see him die after being able to abuse a power he had just learned to the point where he can break the laws of the universe (this still goes over my head - what has waking up sleeping hearts to do with reversing time and how does he even know how to do it??) and about 10 minutes later, he is already revived in the secret ending. Even if he has to fight himself back to life in the Reaper's game, we still know he'll remain the protagonist, so I don't see how I am supposed to get grand feelings about that when they already spoilered it won't last and it ultimately just soils a happy ending. Eraqus touched me more because it was quite obvious it's a passing; he said his goodbyes and finally left the world after being able to apologize to his students. This was an actual redemption arc (or as close to it as you can actually come in KH), from doing terrible things in BBS (trying to kill Ven) over spiritually being by Terra's side (even though they never delved into that further) and ultimately being able to express remorse to the people he damaged and kinda stop Xehanort in the process. That felt good to me.
 

DarkosOverlord

Bronze Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
2,808
Awards
4
Age
24
Location
Rome, Italy
  • Keyblade Master
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • The Foreteller
  • Savage Nymph
Ansem the Wise's original redemption death was still the best we've got for me.
Dude didn't even got to ascend to KH heaven, he got mixed up in all that escalated from his original mistakes.
All he got was to call Xemnas dumb, and it wasn't even a "you're dumb I'm great", Ansem says "We're both losers. Only difference is, I accepted it."

Eraqus was okay. Definitely better than what I thought, walking into KH III I feared Eraqus was going to become this Dumbledore character who actually had this uber secret plan laying around, and luckily that didn't happen to be the case.
Still, he was made smarter and... more "justified" than his role in BbS has earned him.
I'd still would love to know why that happened, too. I suspect Nomura realized later in the series he burned the Good Master character way too quickly.

This would have been great. Instead of pretending the bajillion methods of bringing someone back doesn't exist so we can have some fake drama, have that knowledge affect how the good guys act.
That's what I'm saying! Just send Sora off with a cheer and then if you really want to hit that sour note have the Lollipop Guild realize he's gone by the very end and work from there.
Don't act like you're sending him towards his death, not only we all know it's not what's happening, I guarantee you people had quite enough of that.

Like, do they realize "character sacrifices themselves and gets trapped" is how BbS ends for all three protagonists?
 

Oracle Spockanort

the only villain on staff
Staff member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
32,261
Awards
54
Age
27
Location
California
Website
twitter.com
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • 15th Anniversary
  • Just Short of the Mark
  • Advanced Chain of Memories
  • Beauty Within
  • No Name
I dont think Shibuya is the Abyss. I think Sora ending up in that city saved him from ending up in the place Young Xehanort intended for him to go. He has a chance at returning to the land of the living through the Reaper's Game. Were had he ended up in the Abyss he could have been lost for good
I don’t disagree. My point is that by creating this teaser, it opens itself to all of these questions that undermine the impact of the ending.

If you consider that the ending is just Sora vanishing and we have no other information to go off of because it's meant for the next game. The Shibuya stuff is just teaser, so I don't think it's fair to expect them to explain what Shibuya is or Sora's state of mind or what's going on in a very short teaser trailer.
You’re missing my point. Why release a secret ending that, instead of enhancing Sora’s sacrifice, exists to show that Sora isn’t gone like we thought and that he’s might only just be a tad bit dead? Fans went from “Damn Sora’s actually gone” to “oh nvm he’s fine. Like always”

Do you not see what is wrong with that?

Another Side, Another Story set nothing up except for someone who looked like Riku fighting some guy with Oathkeeper and Oblivion in a world we never saw before, with both wearing black coats. Chain of Memories would explain the black coats and KH2 would explain Roxas. But just from beating KH1, there was no way to link that Another Side, Another Story was about the consequence of Sora's sacrifice at Hollow Bastion. At least we know Shibuya must be a consequence of his abuse of the Power of Waking due to what we know from The World Ends With You and what Young Xehanort said before.
The different between ASAD/DD is that those secret endings were visually engaging and mysterious. They were telling us a story that we didn’t have the full picture to and it was fun to imagine what what happening in them.

Yozora isn’t mysterious in the same way. It’s boring. There are definitely questions that come up, but it comes at the expense of ruining the shock value and sadness over Sora’s sacrifice.
 

Divine Past

Bronze Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2013
Messages
1,281
Awards
7
Location
NYC
  • Steadfast Heart
  • Ever Gentle and Kind
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • Quack Attack
  • Rising Star
  • Plum Goofy
Well we only saw death undone because Sora went back in time and had Namine contact Lingering Will to change the future; all of this was only possible because Kairi was able to hold Sora back from actually dying. Everyone else had actually died. So I don't think there will always be the "undone" option.

Although I do agree that Nomura has had sadder scenarios happen than "death", most notably what happens to Xion in Days (is this actual death?) and Roxas rejoining with Sora. I think this whole death thing is actually more useful in developing Sora's character and maturing him. He's always been goofy and carefree, but now he's faced with actual consequences and I am interested to see what direction that takes his character. We all know Sora won't actually die (unless it was like the confirmed last game), but I think it will be helpful for his character to grow from this and Nomura can use this as a tool to mature the series and make it a little more serious. Games, people's attitudes, and the world has changed so much since KH1 was released. The endlessly optimistic and happy protagonist isn't really going to cut it in 2019.
I just don't think Sora is going to learn anything given what he knows about his character. What is he going to learn, not save his friends? You can argue that he learns about death but I assume he knew in any given battle he can die right? Like what did he think was going to happen if he lost versus Jafar. So I imagine even if Nomura never told us this that Sora is aware that death is possible during any fight. Which is always a confusing part of the story whether Sora is in actual danger of death or not in his journey.

Maybe Sora does have a character change because he died but since we might have to wait like 3 years to find out doesn't really excuse the flat-ish ending. Like Spockanort said we have no context to what Sora is feeling now which can give an idea if anything changed. I believe in BBS (it's been a while since I played it) Aqua was shown as losing hope in the realm of darkness and then deciding she needs to keep fighting. At least that gives us some insight as a cliff hanger ending.
 

FudgemintGuardian

"Indeeeeeeeeeeeeed."
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
5,654
Awards
32
  • The Foreteller
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Savage Nymph
  • Come So Far
  • Beauty Within
  • O, Purest of Hearts
That's what I'm saying! Just send Sora off with a cheer and then if you really want to hit that sour note have the Lollipop Guild realize he's gone by the very end and work from there.
Don't act like you're sending him towards his death, not only we all know it's not what's happening, I guarantee you people had quite enough of that.

Like, do they realize "character sacrifices themselves and gets trapped" is how BbS ends for all three protagonists?
Heck, they even had a party at the end like they were ready to celebrate with both Kairi and Sora once they got back. As if they thought it'd be all okay.

*sigh* If everyone believed Sora was gonna be just fine then his death would have hit hard. (Granted, it'd still be kinda ruined knowing he's in Shibuya, but it's not like the characters know.) It just sucks how so much of KH3's story was handled.
 

Divine Past

Bronze Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2013
Messages
1,281
Awards
7
Location
NYC
  • Steadfast Heart
  • Ever Gentle and Kind
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • Quack Attack
  • Rising Star
  • Plum Goofy
Heck, they even had a party at the end like they were ready to celebrate with both Kairi and Sora once they got back. As if they thought it'd be all okay.

*sigh* If everyone believed Sora was gonna be just fine then his death would have hit hard. (Granted, it'd still be kinda ruined knowing he's in Shibuya, but it's not like the characters know.) It just sucks how so much of KH3's story was handled.
It was also weird that like no one show urgency to save Kairi bar Sora. All the hero's who did not fight MX just stood around during the fight so they could have tried something to save her? Because the implication was Riku could also save her with the magic power.

But after MX dies, Sora said I am going to save her and Riku was like no let's rest up for so I guess Kairi was not an immediate danger so they knew she was ok? Was Kairi just chilling in a garden or something?
 

FudgemintGuardian

"Indeeeeeeeeeeeeed."
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
5,654
Awards
32
  • The Foreteller
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Savage Nymph
  • Come So Far
  • Beauty Within
  • O, Purest of Hearts
It was also weird that like no one show urgency to save Kairi bar Sora. All the hero's who did not fight MX just stood around during the fight so they could have tried something to save her? Because the implication was Riku could also save her with the magic power.

But after MX dies, Sora said I am going to save her and Riku was like no let's rest up for so I guess Kairi was not an immediate danger so they knew she was ok? Was Kairi just chilling in a garden or something?
It's just...weird how it's like Sora is the only one who cares about what's happening. Same when Xehanort summoned Kingdom Hearts. The complete non-concern as if Xehanort drew a mustache on a billboard advert. This is supposed to be serious!
 
Top