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The Nobodys' Goal



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Twilight

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I'm sorry, but would it not solve EVERYONE's problem if all the heartless and all the nobodies were reunited with their proper parts?

Was not Xemnas' goal essentially going to have the same outcome as Sora's/the Keybladers'?

And I am curious why, after Xehanort split himself into his heartless and into his nobody, why his heartless wanted to send everything else into darkness - as he did - while his nobody wanted to - essentially - reunite with it's heart.

However, I guess Xemnas went about it the wrong way. That many hearts would obviously more more than a enough to reconstitute Organization XIII. I am curious, though, how they thought Kingdom Hearts could fix their problem. It seems DiZ found a way of simply having Roxas and Sora come face-to-face.

Perhaps the fact that Xehanort's Heartless was defeated and cast into oblivion/darkness drove Xemnas mad and forced him into developing this plan to find it.

What do y'all think? Any contradiction here? Am I confused?
 

xickae

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I'm sorry, but would it not solve EVERYONE's problem if all the heartless and all the nobodies were reunited with their proper parts?
It wouldn't because not all heartless have Nobodies, so even if all of the Nobodies fused back with their respectively with their heartless, there would still be heartless around (the one without nobodies and the new ones that would eventually show up from every darkness in everyones' hearts)

Was not Xemnas' goal essentially going to have the same outcome as Sora's/the Keybladers'?
Sorry but don't understand what you mean by that.


And I am curious why, after Xehanort split himself into his heartless and into his nobody, why his heartless wanted to send everything else into darkness - as he did - while his nobody wanted to - essentially - reunite with it's heart.
Well, his heartless wanted more power he didn't care by being whole (once he had a heart - full of darkness - but still a heart) while Xemnas was suffering by the lack of a heart and wanted one like all the Nobodies.

However, I guess Xemnas went about it the wrong way. That many hearts would obviously more more than a enough to reconstitute Organization XIII. I am curious, though, how they thought Kingdom Hearts could fix their problem.
Because KH had many harts and they thought about using the power of all those hearts to make them whole


It seems DiZ found a way of simply having Roxas and Sora come face-to-face.
That's truth. But it appears no other Org. member had their original body in one piece like Sora. All the others Org. body were most probably heartless (some think those heartless are actually the bosses we fight in the first game).


Perhaps the fact that Xehanort's Heartless was defeated and cast into oblivion/darkness drove Xemnas mad and forced him into developing this plan to find it.
That's an interesting idea, but, don't get me wrong, impossible once for KH have that many hearts, Xemnas and other members would have to work in that for years maybe even a little before the first game and during the same, so I don't think Xemnas could have the idea of KH after his heartless was destroyed.


What do y'all think? Any contradiction here? Am I confused?
Hope I helped you.
 

Riku Fan1415

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All the others Org. body were most probably heartless (some think those heartless are actually the bosses we fight in the first game).

Yeah, I've heard a rumor that the Phantom of the Clock Tower is Luxord's Heartless, which would make sense, because of the whole "cursing the clock to send Sora's partners to Oblivion" thing, but I don't think it's ever been confirmed, has it?
 

Wehrmacht

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It's never been confirmed who any of the Organization member's heartless. For all we know they could have been one of the countless shadows we fought.
 

Bh325

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Well, Xemnas wanted to have a heart so he would get more power. The fact that he wanted to get a new heart from Kingdom Hearts, was because all Org.XIII members were not able to fuse with their original selves, and there were like a million heartless around. It would be highly unlikely to find the correct heartless and merge. But that's just my opinion.:toungesmile:
 

shadywinters

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It wouldn't because not all heartless have Nobodies, so even if all of the Nobodies fused back with their respectively with their heartless, there would still be heartless around (the one without nobodies and the new ones that would eventually show up from every darkness in everyones' hearts)


Sorry but don't understand what you mean by that.



Well, his heartless wanted more power he didn't care by being whole (once he had a heart - full of darkness - but still a heart) while Xemnas was suffering by the lack of a heart and wanted one like all the Nobodies.


Because KH had many harts and they thought about using the power of all those hearts to make them whole



That's truth. But it appears no other Org. member had their original body in one piece like Sora. All the others Org. body were most probably heartless (some think those heartless are actually the bosses we fight in the first game).



That's an interesting idea, but, don't get me wrong, impossible once for KH have that many hearts, Xemnas and other members would have to work in that for years maybe even a little before the first game and during the same, so I don't think Xemnas could have the idea of KH after his heartless was destroyed.



Hope I helped you.

U probably just answered the questions right there. I haven't got a clue... But it'll come up soon!
 

Twilight

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"It wouldn't because not all heartless have Nobodies, so even if all of the Nobodies fused back with their respectively with their heartless, there would still be heartless around (the one without nobodies and the new ones that would eventually show up from every darkness in everyones' hearts)"

I was working under the assumption that yes, all heartless DO have nobodies. According to the original Ansem reports, they do. I think you are refering to the fact that not all heartless have nobodies that have a physical human-like form.


"Sorry but don't understand what you mean by that."

I meant whether there are no heartless/nobodies by Sora destroying them all, or by all of them recombining, Sora would be happy.


"Well, his heartless wanted more power he didn't care by being whole (once he had a heart - full of darkness - but still a heart) while Xemnas was suffering by the lack of a heart and wanted one like all the Nobodies."

Yes, that is what I just said. I'm asking WHY the heartless didn't want a body while the body wanted a heartless.


"Because KH had many hearts and they thought about using the power of all those hearts to make them whole."

Uh, ok. Why? How? Use the power to make them whole? They didn't think finding their original heart could do that?


"That's truth. But it appears no other Org. member had their original body in one piece like Sora. All the others Org. bodies were most probably heartless (some think those heartless are actually the bosses we fight in the first game)."

OK, first of all, Sora did not have his body. His heart merely retained it's body's physical form. Roxas was the body. And Xemnas also achieved this. And your statement doesn't answer the root question of why Roxas and Sora merely coming into contact allowed them to recombine.


"That's an interesting idea, but, don't get me wrong, impossible once for KH have that many hearts, Xemnas and other members would have to work in that for years maybe even a little before the first game and during the same, so I don't think Xemnas could have the idea of KH after his heartless was destroyed."

OK well we don't know when Xemnas started his plan to use Kingdom Hearts to become whole again, so it's not impossible.


"Hope I helped you."

Nope, but thanks for trying buddy.
 

Leonforbrawl

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I think that the entire Nobody idea didn't work out well... And I KNOW that the whole Ansem/Xeahnort thing did not work at all.

Ansem in Kingdom Hearts was not a Heartless. Proof of this is he is not listed in the Heartless part of the journal. He did not show any real Hearless qualities, other than a necklace with the symbol on it, until he did God-knows-what to himself in the final battle. Yeah, I really hate that battle. So anyway, Ansem (Alright, Xeahnort's Heartless) was originally not a Heartless.

This was only established in 2. Ansem also referred to himself as Ansem, which is why KH2 had to do a massive (And in my opinion, pointless) retcon. After all, why would Xeahnort's Heartless (And Xeahnort himself) call himself Ansem? It makes no sense. Xemnas suffers from much of the same problem.

The reason why Ansem wanted darkness to flood the realm of light is is identical to the reason the Disney villains wanted to do it. For power.

As for the Nobody wants hearts thing, that is simply because KH2 did not explain the motives of the Organization well. They don't have emotions, yet they can desire, which is an emotion. Plus, Saix (In battle), Demyx (In the Underworld, AND before you kill him), Axel (Obvious), and Roxas (Really obvious) all directly contradict this.

Don't try saying that they pretended to have emotions. Fear is NOT an emotion you would want to pretend to have. You wouldn't get the adrenelin rush of real fear, so what benefits are there? Same with anger. It would impede your logical thought. Not a good thing for a thing "without emotions."

So, after the whole emotions thing, we get to Kingdom Hearts. First of all, it shouldn't be there. Or, if it should, it shouldn't be the real thing. The real Kingdom Hearts was in the Endless Abyss. It was not floating above a giant castle.

Then, why do the Nobodies need so many hearts? It's because the story team needed an excuse for them to want to get hearts. There is no reason why they couldn't just choose any old random heart (Unless there is an example, in which case, state it.). We saw the Dusks trying to grab the hearts falling from Kingdom Hearts. We never saw a Dusk grab a heart, so it isn't certain that they could or couldn't rejoin with a random heart.

In conclusion, the Kingdom Hearts story team did not really explain why. Therefore, we shall have to believe their (Unbelievably contradicting) views. Stupid Ansem conspiracy.
 

Organization_42

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I think that the entire Nobody idea didn't work out well... And I KNOW that the whole Ansem/Xeahnort thing did not work at all.

Ansem in Kingdom Hearts was not a Heartless. Proof of this is he is not listed in the Heartless part of the journal. He did not show any real Hearless qualities, other than a necklace with the symbol on it, until he did God-knows-what to himself in the final battle. Yeah, I really hate that battle. So anyway, Ansem (Alright, Xeahnort's Heartless) was originally not a Heartless.

This was only established in 2. Ansem also referred to himself as Ansem, which is why KH2 had to do a massive (And in my opinion, pointless) retcon. After all, why would Xeahnort's Heartless (And Xeahnort himself) call himself Ansem? It makes no sense. Xemnas suffers from much of the same problem.

Yes, that "Ansem" was Xehanort's Heartless. Mickey explains it when the trio reunites with him at Hollow Bastion, and it's also explained more fully in the Secret Ansem Reports. Years before the first game happened, the real Ansem the Wise found Xehanort barely alive with no memories, and took him in. Xehanort became one of his apprentices and together he, Ansem, and the other five apprentices worked to try and solve the mysteries of the heart. It was when they started doing tests on a human subject (Xehanort, who hoped to regain his lost memories) that everything started going wrong. Xehanort began to tamper with the darkness and lost himself to it. He also led the other five to follow him. They sealed Ansem in the Realm of Darkness, and sometime later, they themselves lost their hearts. Once that happened, their former selves became Heartless and their Nobodies were Xemnas, Xigbar, Xaldin, Vexen, Lexaeus, and Zexion.

Now, due to the unique circumstances in which Xehanort lost his heart (Ansem believed he willingly gave it up) his Heartless possessed a will of its own and remembered who it was. Also, not surprisingly, his Nobody was a powerful being who could retain a human appearance. While Xemnas was off doing his thing, Xehanort's Heartless was unleashing his little army and causing the havoc that would lead to KH1.

Why did they call themselves Ansem? We don't really know for sure, all we know is that at some point Xehanort started doing things in his master's name, including writing the Ansem Reports from KH1. After he sealed Ansem in the Realm of Darkness, he took on Ansem's identity.

The reason why Ansem wanted darkness to flood the realm of light is is identical to the reason the Disney villains wanted to do it. For power.

Yeah, and I believe Xemnas has similar motives. I'll get to that in a minute.

As for the Nobody wants hearts thing, that is simply because KH2 did not explain the motives of the Organization well. They don't have emotions, yet they can desire, which is an emotion. Plus, Saix (In battle), Demyx (In the Underworld, AND before you kill him), Axel (Obvious), and Roxas (Really obvious) all directly contradict this.

I have a theory that the Nobodies can feel, but barely. Their hearts still exist, whether in the form of Heartless or suspended in darkness. Roxas' heart, of course, exists in the form of Sora. I think that he and Namine have the strongest sense of emotion, because their Other exist and they feed off of that. Axel could also feel stronger than most because of his friendship with Roxas, and I think they formed a connection that caused him to indirectly feed off of Roxas' emotions, which came from Sora. That's why they both made him feel like he had a heart.

Their bodies allow them to retain human form. Their souls allow them to keep their personalities. I think they still can sense their hearts, but with those hearts no longer united with body and soul it makes it difficult for Nobodies to feel. But it's not impossible, which is why you have examples like Axel and Roxas' friendship, Saix' Berserk state, Demyx' fear, and Namine's guilt.

Then, why do the Nobodies need so many hearts? It's because the story team needed an excuse for them to want to get hearts. There is no reason why they couldn't just choose any old random heart (Unless there is an example, in which case, state it.). We saw the Dusks trying to grab the hearts falling from Kingdom Hearts. We never saw a Dusk grab a heart, so it isn't certain that they could or couldn't rejoin with a random heart.

I believe that Xemnas was lying like a rug when he told the other Nobodies how they could regain hearts. Either way, he really didn't care about becoming whole except so that he could have more power. Once he became complete, he could continue to harness the power of those captured hearts. Whether or not the other Nobodies became whole wasn't his problem. He just recognized the power in them and decided to use it to his advantage. Look at how he treats Roxas. The descriptions we've gotten of 358/2 Days says that Roxas MUST collect hearts every single day. It's all he's ever allowed to do. Xemnas obviously saw him as a useful tool, and nothing more.

My point is that I don't think Xemnas was really after what the rest of the Organization claimed they were after. He told them it would make them whole and they believed it. I don't know why they thought it would work, but they did, and so they followed his orders, and paid the price later on.
 

Cael

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As for the Nobody wants hearts thing, that is simply because KH2 did not explain the motives of the Organization well. They don't have emotions, yet they can desire, which is an emotion. Plus, Saix (In battle), Demyx (In the Underworld, AND before you kill him), Axel (Obvious), and Roxas (Really obvious) all directly contradict this.

Don't try saying that they pretended to have emotions. Fear is NOT an emotion you would want to pretend to have. You wouldn't get the adrenelin rush of real fear, so what benefits are there? Same with anger. It would impede your logical thought. Not a good thing for a thing "without emotions."

You can look sad. You can say you're sad. That does not mean you really are sad. That does not mean you feel sad.
They're not really faking having emotions more like they are acting out the emotions from what they remember when they actually had them.

The Organization deserve to win Oscars and Emmy's for their wonderful performance in the KH series. They did a hell of a lot better job than Ansem (KH1) and he was a heart.
 

Leonforbrawl

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Oscars and Emmys? That's going too far. The Organization was kind of hit or miss. Xemnas was not, in my opinion, as well done as Ansem, since he acted almost just like him. I liked Luxord, Demyx, and Saix, but they all weren't THAT good. I saw better characterization for Riku in KH, and the replica in KH: COM.

Axel was one big mess. He was really two characters: A playful, evil, insane manipulator, and a guilt-ridden friend. Plus, he seemed to be WAY too obsessed with Roxas, who was my favorite out of the Organization in terms of development.

Also, if Demyx acted like he felt fear, what is the difference between that and real fear? Why did he choose to act cowardly? Why did he choose to pretend to be angry at Sora, and thus be killed by him? Where's the advantage in that?
 

Twilight

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trying to manipulate Sora into letting his own emotions get the better of him, obviously
 

Princess of KH

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I skipped over all the other posts in this thread cause i just wanted to say this: i don't think Org. XIII is bad. I really don't. They want a good outcome, they just have a bad method of trying to see it through. I mean, put yourself in their place. You don't have a heart - it was taken from you. Wouldn't yo want it back? They just wanted their hearts back - i can understand that - can you?
 
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