The Longest and Most Controversial Theory Thread on KHI Ever

[gelandporn]

As far as I know, this theory of yours(You need to come up with a better name for it though lol) does not contradict my Original Kingdom Hearts theory. In fact, if we were to combine both of our theories together, I'm sure it would open new pathways to even more answers and theories, based on the most elite knowledge of the Kingdom Hearts series.

Yes, they can work together, but they're two different theories. As I said in the op, I'm not concerned with why the Unversed disappear so much as I am with what they are. They could disappear for any number of reasons which don't necessarily have to connect to what they are (such as your idea of KH splitting).

If you or anyone else wants to use the ideas presented in this thread to further your own thoughts or theories, though, by all means go ahead.

I mean Namine doesn't need to have Sora's body and soul to be made from it. Did you already say something about that? I'm sorry if you did in your op, it's just...so long.

Well this is where it gets technical.

A Nobody is not literally comprised of the same vessel as their original.
We cannot say, for example, that Axel = Lea's body and soul (though most say that for convenience's sake).

Think of it like a chemical equation.
Sodium Chloride, for example, is a by-product in some chemical reactions (like the by-product of a left over body and soul becoming a Nobody).
But you don't say that Na + Cl = NaCl in the sense that (Na +Cl) and (NaCl) are the same thing. (Na + Cl) becomes (NaCl), it's a one way equation. NaCl, as a new chemical compound, has entirely different properties than a homogeneous mixture of Na and Cl.

Similarly, the leftover body and soul become a Nobody. We know that this is true because a body and soul in themselves are considered existent, yet as a Nobody they are non-existent. Plus, we can see they're not the same thing from the physical alterations the Nobody has when compared to the original body/soul.

So Namine was born as a Nobody because Sora's body and soul went into the process as the components needed, but you can't simply say Namine=Sora's body and soul.

She, like any Nobody, was born via the body and soul.
And in that respect I guess you could still argue that the reason why she ages is because her original self is still around.

I thought it was confirmed to be an acronym for 'Darkness in Zero'.

Cause, y'know. He was banished to a world of nothing, Zero, and was left with Hate and Anger, and Revenge. Darkness. Dark memories? It could actually work for your theory. Kind of.

It was. The origin of "DiZ" was to fit a phonetic "Disney" reference in as a name, and it came through the whole "Darkness in Zero" thing.

 

[OmniChaos]

I actually thought people would have a hard time thinking "No Heart" and "Another" applied to MX.

Personally, once we found out what a Replica was, I felt it was rather obvious.

It might not be for the same reason (as my theory says) but "No Heart" and "Another" must have their significance for both men.

Perhaps the significance of "No Heart" to Xehanort could be in the sense that he acts like he doesn't have a heart. Kinda like he doesn't feel emotions toward the subjects he experiments on. Like "heartless" or such. As for "Another", I wouldn't be surprised if it meant "another Xehanort".

Hm?

That XH isn't a Heartless.

So what is it exactly that you have a problem with here? That, because Xehanort's Heartless is actually memories, then it would not resort to a state of suspension when defeated (and thus Xemnas, when defeated, would not return to his original self)?

Pretty much. You can say it doesn't have to happen, but, for me, if it didn't, it'd be a pretty big let down.

Because that's exactly what I'm saying. You seem to be under the impression that Xemnas and Xehanort's Heartless have to recombine. Not in this case. That is something that (like the idea of Roxas automatically being Sora's body and soul) people take for granted without scrutinizing.

I am aware it doesn't have to happen. Like I said, if it didn't, it'd be a let down for me.

Well, where else would the memories go of a vanquished Unversed than back to the original? That is, MX's memories, released from Riku's heart, went back to whoever the original of MX was.

Which would bring up the question of whether or not the original MX was good.

Look at the DS. He splits out of MX (and is a mirror image) and turns into a dark being. Like, you know, a reflection of MX's inner darkness.

However, one could question if the splitting of DS from MX was completely canon or if it simply is hinting at something. Like maybe DS originally came from MX, but that he is not necessarily able to fuse and split with him whenever he chooses.

And conversely there are plenty of people bitching about being sick of the forms of Xehanort in each game.
It could go either way, really.

Which I kinda find disappointing, as not many of those people bitching about Xehanort are also bitching about Sora. =/

One very real possibility in my theory is the original of MX... whoever that is. So, in a sense, the main antagonist would be connected to Xehanort.

Or possibly just MX, especially if he is the one who leads to the creation of the current Xehanort.

If there's a lack of Xehanort in upcoming KH games that's based after II, then all support to them.

Well hell, then why stop at Xehanort? Why not replace Sora?

Which is exactly why Sora's not the main character in BBS, right?

Hurr Durr. I was talking about the series in general.

 

[Relix]

Personally I like this theory a lot, it had a lot of evidence to back up its credibility. The part that I admired the most out of the whole thing was the Apprentice Xehanort being the Unversed of Terra. I even posted a similar theory on this a think a week ago but I wasn't able to fit Xehanort's memory loss into it, but you covered that quite well.

My Terra having an Unversed Theory <--- That's it if you even have a chance to look at it.

The part about Roxas is a little shaky but not shaky enough to be ruled out as a possibility.
I also liked the Repliku part of your theory because, Repliku was one of my favorite characters in KH history and I strongly believed he was not simply a replica and nothing more but an Unversed. Thanks for posting this thread.

 

[gelandporn]

Perhaps the significance of "No Heart" to Xehanort could be in the sense that he acts like he doesn't have a heart. Kinda like he doesn't feel emotions toward the subjects he experiments on. Like "heartless" or such. As for "Another", I wouldn't be surprised if it meant "another Xehanort".

"Another Another"
ehh.

That XH isn't a Heartless.

I don't recall people bringing that up.

Pretty much. You can say it doesn't have to happen, but, for me, if it didn't, it'd be a pretty big let down.
I am aware it doesn't have to happen. Like I said, if it didn't, it'd be a let down for me.

┐('～`；)┌

You'd like it to happen, but there's not much to do or say about that.

Which would bring up the question of whether or not the original MX was good.

And considering how MX's own allegiance has been brought to question, that would logically follow.

However, one could question if the splitting of DS from MX was completely canon or if it simply is hinting at something. Like maybe DS originally came from MX, but that he is not necessarily able to fuse and split with him whenever he chooses.

If it was hinting at something, how would it not be canon? You mean because it was only shown in a "concept video"?

The only thing that has been confirmed to be removed are SRM's keyblades. Other than that (and the revision of MX's skin tone), there's nothing to suggest anything has or hasn't been removed/modified/whatever. So saying that a detail may not actually make it into the game is utterly pointless. There's no reason why we can't use said details in our theorizing though.

Which I kinda find disappointing, as not many of those people bitching about Xehanort are also bitching about Sora. =/

Probably because Nomura never said anything about Kingdom Hearts being Xehanort's story.

Or possibly just MX, especially if he is the one who leads to the creation of the current Xehanort.

The main villain of BbS, yes, but I doubt he'd be the main antagonist for the entire series.
He's introduced in BbS and he'll be old news by the time of KH3.

 

[Chrono Mizaki]

Well hell, then why stop at Xehanort? Why not replace Sora?

Because Xehanort does his role well as a 'manipulator from the grave'. He can still influence, no matter what. It would be best to bring in a new character who was influenced, direct or undirect, by Xehanort. If he's the so-called catalyst that brought the heartless and nobodies, then who knows... that in those 9 years, he may have warped someone.

That's why I love Xehanort as a character. Because he could've done a lot of things in 9 years.

As for Sora, I wouldn't mind if he got replaced. But he's not in a situation that almost replicates Death. I know someone will say "Xehanort has not died", but bringing him back would be a 'cheap revival'. Look at Maleficent, she's an example that Xehanort could follow. Not as a bumbling villain, but as a cliched, stereotypical villain who doesn't know when to give up and stop embarrassing himself.

 

[Iridium]

It would be best to bring in a new character who was influenced, direct or undirect, by Xehanort

So, Twilight Princess? Ok.

That's why I love Xehanort as a character. Because he could've done a lot of things in 9 years.

While that's true, I find it pretty cliched for him to just reappear as the main villain so abruptly in the story. But that's just me.

 

[Chrono Mizaki]

So, Twilight Princess? Ok.

I haven't completed TP nor even bothered to continue with it, so I don't know what you mean.

While that's true, I find it pretty cliched for him to just reappear as the main villain so abruptly in the story. But that's just me.

He was cliche and it was rushed with no solid explanation. Then we have to leave it to COM and II... and II made it less enjoyable than it sounds.

 

[OmniChaos]

I don't recall people bringing that up.

Nvm...

If it was hinting at something, how would it not be canon? You mean because it was only shown in a "concept video"?

I mean that, while it hints at something, it might not actually happen as how it is shown.
Like DS splitting from MX might hint at DS being from MX in some form or way, but not that DS can come out of MX as shown.

There's no reason why we can't use said details in our theorizing though.

Never said we couldn't. I only said that one could argue that DS splitting from MX hints at something rather than DS actually splitting from MX.

Probably because Nomura never said anything about Kingdom Hearts being Xehanort's story.

I don't see why that would really sway one's opinion of a character, but whatever...

 

[gelandporn]

Never said we couldn't. I only said that one could argue that DS splitting from MX hints at something rather than DS actually splitting from MX.

Then what's your point?
One could argue either way. I'm not. I'm taking what we saw at face value. Concept video or not.

I don't see why that would really sway one's opinion of a character, but whatever...

It doesn't.
Just means that there is no obligation to hold Xehanort in some form as the villain.

 

[Zeagal]

Well this is where it gets technical.

A Nobody is not literally comprised of the same vessel as their original.
We cannot say, for example, that Axel = Lea's body and soul (though most say that for convenience's sake).

Think of it like a chemical equation.
Sodium Chloride, for example, is a by-product in some chemical reactions (like the by-product of a left over body and soul becoming a Nobody).
But you don't say that Na + Cl = NaCl in the sense that (Na +Cl) and (NaCl) are the same thing. (Na + Cl) becomes (NaCl), it's a one way equation. NaCl, as a new chemical compound, has entirely different properties than a homogeneous mixture of Na and Cl.

Oh goodness, as if I don't get enough of these chemical equations. XD You know, you could make that even more complicated so I'm glad you didn't pull out some reverse reaction or something.

While I agree that the nobody wouldn't physically have the same exact vessel as the original, I think they would still have the body. Like NaCl still has Na and Cl there. Then again they are non-existant like you said, but they also are...so it's sticky.

 

[Dawn Rebirth]

good theory, makes sense sure, it's long but, I understood what you meant completely, though one thing about DiZ being AtW's unversed which of the two are you saying, that what Leon/Squall said, about AtW dieing while trying to save the people of Radint Garden was true and DiZ was made before, that happened?, or that the DiZ, that Riku, and the King met in CO was the real AtW, and that the one that, helped Sora get his memorie back was really, his unversed because, DiZ didn't show any anger until KH2, and I wouldn't think that an unversed could bottle up his/her anger unless, they were old enough because, you did say a "Fresh" unversed would like a new born child, and obviously Roxas is the best example but also Xion after all she didn't really react to much in the beginning of, Days so she could also, be an example not to get off subject, and the "unversed" AtW got destroyed in the explosion, and will be appearing in KH3, and tell the whole story, to sora, and the rest or niether?
Also, where exactly would, Repliku appear in the futre as an enemy, or as an allie, or is it possible that he, will appear somewhere as AtW's partner,(that is if the unversed died, and not the real, AtW) cause I could see that though just like, Namine and number's 7 through 12 he will look like just as he did when they last met, because the body dosen't age.(for nobodies and unversed)
Well, anyway those are my only question's though, you may not be able to provied, the exact answer but, I'd still like to see what, your thought's are about questions.

 

[Iridium]

Also, where exactly would, Repliku appear in the futre as an enemy, or as an allie, or is it possible that he, will appear somewhere as AtW's partner

Replica Riku is dead, so there's no chance of him returning. At the very least that replica in particular.

 

[_EX]

I like this but I have one problem. If the guardian is DS and Xemnas is made when DS leaves SoD that would mean Xemnas was made after Sora fights SoD which doesnt let Xemnas have much time to make the org. or appear in KH1 fm so i dont think it works out fully. Unless I read it wrong.

 

[gelandporn]

good theory, makes sense sure, it's long but, I understood what you meant completely, though one thing about DiZ being AtW's unversed which of the two are you saying, that what Leon/Squall said, about AtW dieing while trying to save the people of Radint Garden was true and DiZ was made before, that happened?, or that the DiZ, that Riku, and the King met in CO was the real AtW, and that the one that, helped Sora get his memorie back was really, his unversed because, DiZ didn't show any anger until KH2, and I wouldn't think that an unversed could bottle up his/her anger unless, they were old enough because, you did say a "Fresh" unversed would like a new born child, and obviously Roxas is the best example but also Xion after all she didn't really react to much in the beginning of, Days so she could also, be an example not to get off subject, and the "unversed" AtW got destroyed in the explosion, and will be appearing in KH3, and tell the whole story, to sora, and the rest or niether?

The DiZ we first meet in CoM (who is the same person through KH2) is the Unversed. We have never actually met the real AtW, save for the flashback sequence.

I have left one part of the creation of DiZ intentionally ambiguous though.
Was the replica complete before or after AtW was banished to the realm of nothing?

There's two possible scenarios I see here:
- AtW, angry over what his apprentices had been doing, creates an Unversed in the realm of Nothing. The Unversed, when becoming a full fledged replica, is under the impression that he (as the real AtW) was banished to the realm by his apprentices.
- Or AtW really was banished to the realm of Nothing and, while there, creates the Unversed DiZ. Essentially, then, AtW (the whole being) went into the realm of Nothing and DiZ (the Unversed) came out.

It's really dependent on the circumstances surrounding the birth of an Unversed- where are they born? The realm of nothing? In place of the original? Somewhere else?

Either way, though, I would say that the time in which he starts referring to himself as "DiZ" rather than AtW is the time when the Unversed has taken over and is writing the reports.

Also, where exactly would, Repliku appear in the futre as an enemy, or as an allie, or is it possible that he, will appear somewhere as AtW's partner,(that is if the unversed died, and not the real, AtW) cause I could see that though just like, Namine and number's 7 through 12 he will look like just as he did when they last met, because the body dosen't age.(for nobodies and unversed)
Well, anyway those are my only question's though, you may not be able to provied, the exact answer but, I'd still like to see what, your thought's are about questions.

Nothing really indicates Repliku will be making a return. If Xion is any hint, and she is, there's little possibility that he'll come back.

But, as I said, even if we aren't going to see him again, I think his existence made a bigger impact on the future of the series than we thought. His memories may have been involved in Riku's dual wielding.

I like this but I have one problem. If the guardian is DS and Xemnas is made when DS leaves SoD that would mean Xemnas was made after Sora fights SoD which doesnt let Xemnas have much time to make the org. or appear in KH1 fm so i dont think it works out fully. Unless I read it wrong.

You read it wrong.

Xemnas and SoD are made at the same time.
Xehanort, who is an Unversed of Terra that absorbed MX and DS, releases MX's memories, creating Xehanort's Heartless, and DS's heart, creating the Guardian. The leftover being (essentially the same as he was before he absorbed MX/DS) goes through the transformation of a Nobody (since the DS's heart was released) and becomes Xemnas.

 

[Allister Rose]

so how do the unverse get extinct? just curiosity

 

[Abbot]

so how do the unverse get extinct? just curiosity

According to his theory, they don't. It's in there. Here:

How come we’re not seeing Unversed run around in KH1 onward?
As some examples will show you, Unversed can still be created. But their waning appearances can be attributed to Xehanort’s experimentation with the darkness.

Before Xehanort’s experiments, a Heartless wasn’t created from a heart consumed by darkness and afterward, the Heartless were created. This, as I see it, implies that the nature of the heart’s darkness between the time of BbS and KH1 was altered.

Xehanort was able to retain the darkness within the heart, whereas, normally, that darkness would be released as dark memories. By additionally amplifying that darkness, it eventually was forced to consume the entire heart (instead of absorbing the memories from it) and created the first Heartless, which spread like a wildfire, effectively replacing the Unversed. Still though, that’s neither here nor there. I’m not trying to guess what happened to the Unversed (and I don’t think it’s the greatest guess anyway), just here to talk about what they are.

 

[Allister Rose]

hmm....i dont really get it 100% but there seems to be no answer to it anyways...i still don understand te difference between the replica nad unverse theory....what doesnt allow unverse to gain appearance of a certain memory?

 

[gelandporn]

what doesnt allow unverse to gain appearance of a certain memory?

They can take the appearance of a certain memory, as we see with Xion.
It's contingent on the strength of the negative emotion and the memories that the Unversed is initially made from.

The stronger the emotion, the more replica-like the Unversed is in the beginning.
And memories also contribute to appearance, naturally.

 

[Allister Rose]

i would like a summary if it's not too much to ask. i dont want to ask too much questions

 

[Dexel]

How I managed to sort through all of this in 50 minutes or so, I'll never know.

Very good theory, Grace. I may not be much of a KHFag and might be a little rusty around the corners as far as theory-judging goes, but I can't really even peck a hole in this one.

Now excuse me, as my brain will be bursting soon and I'd perfer not to get it on the comp.