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The Identity of Chirithy's Master



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Absent

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Seems odd to me that you can ever have light without having some shadow to go with it. I'm willing to bet that both have always existed, it's just the darkness in people's hearts that was a new thing. And conjecture or not, it's a habit of mine to try and rationalize this stuff. :D

My bad I should have gone in more detail. Darkness must have existed in some form since the XBlade has some in it, but I mean in the RoL. The woes of KH fans, grasping for any bit of data for rationalization.
 

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I always kind of imagined it as both the Realm of Light and Darkness always existed it's just that they were separated. The light side was filled with nothing but light, and the dark nothing but dark. Two sides to one coin, never really mixing. Until darkness was born in the hearts, and then the Light side was plunged into total darkness. This be how KH ended up in the Realm of Darkness after all.
 

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darkness has always existed it is when people were getting greedy with light that the darkness in people hearts grow
 

Sephiroth0812

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Instead of having an active hand in the (partial) restoration of the world (remember that this "restored" world is but a few million spots of light still in a sea filled with Darkness) I tend more towards the notion that the seven PoH were "created"/chosen as a key part of the new "security system" that was supposed to keep the remnants of the light world safe as the border between the Light Realm and the Dark Realm (which I too believe already existed, but completely undetected and undisturbed) was broken through the apocalyptic fighting during the Keyblade War.
This new "security system" which involves the Door to Darkness, the Keyblade of Heart (which is confirmed to have come into existence only after the Reorganisation of the world), apparently both Land of Departure and Radiant Garden (it was the opening of the door to the Heart of that world and its downfall which brought about the invasion of the Heartless into the whole Light Realm, furthermore the Final Keyhole is also located there) and the Final Keyhole, seems to be a sort of "replacement" for the old border between realms that is outfitted with several locks, with the Door to Darkness being the last one and the Keyblade of Heart (and thus the seven Hearts of the Princesses) being its key.
Land of Departure and Radiant Garden are possibly other locks which Xehanort systematically teared down during his "crusade" throughout the series. LoD already in BBS when he orchestrated the downfall of its Guardian Eraqus and then sunk the world itself in Darkness. Aqua transforming it into Castle Oblivion presumably protected the world's heart and prevented it from being completely destroyed, and thus possibly kept the lock intact, although weakened.
Radiant Garden Xehanort worked to bring down from within by assuming a place in the world's ruler's inner circle and just like Eraqus, Xehanort eventually orchestrated Ansem the Wise's downfall, followed by the fall of the world itself in which he more or less used the "help" of Maleficent again.
With both LoD and Radiant Garden either severely weakened or otherwise out of the picture, Xehanort went on to try and break the last one, which much of Ansem SoD's plan in KH 1 revolved around. Had Ansem succeeded and the door remained open, I guess this whole artificial border separating the realms would have collapsed for good and a flood of Heartless would have brought about the end, reaching Xehanort's goal of drowning the universe in Darkness without having to fight an apocalyptic war beforehand.


Back to the Princesses, they as a collective are said by Yen Sid to be the "replacement" for the true KH which was lost to the Darkness and they do NOT have the seven light shards of the X-blade which apparently several people falsely claim.
And the light from the broken Chi-blade was then divided into seven, to protect the number of pure hearts in the world.
This part clearly mentions the light shards independently from the "number of pure hearts in the world" which refers to the Princesses.

The "security system" apparently worked very well for a long time and the safety of the Princesses is imperative for it, which is why Eraqus stresses as much during BBS.

Now since the Princesses are the "replacement" of the true KH and also apparently a key for the border separating the light and dark realms, I come to the assumption that the original true KH served as much the same purpose for the original world.
It is said several times in the legend that the true KH was the source of all light (for the Light Realm), but since light casts a shadow, KH had one too which actually IS the Realm of Darkness. The true KH thus acted as a lock/security to its own shadow, separating the Realm of Light from the Realm of Darkness.
This would also explain why the X-blade is made of both Light AND Darkness. The X-blade is the counterpart, Guardian and key to Kingdom Hearts all in one. Like the Keyblade of Heart is the key to the Door of Darkness, the last lock of the "new" security system in absence of KH (with the Princesses as substitutes, hence their importance to it), the X-blade is in actuality the Key of the original "security system" that separated the realms for good due to its own position, the true KH itself.
As the key for this lock though, the X-blade needs to be compatible with the true KH and therefore the two elements that make it up were taken from KH itself, it was made from both KH's light (the light half) and KH's shadow (the dark half).
It is said that the X-blade is the perfect crossing between Light and Dark, which is true insofar as it was created from the perfect Light (KH) and the perfect Darkness (KH's own shadow).

When the people became greedy for the light and tried to obtain the X-blade to unlock KH and thus gain its power, they forgot/ignored/didn't know that this would also mean unlocking the border between KH and its own shadow, causing the heart that is KH to fall to its own darkness, which is exactly what happened at the end of the war and what was replicated on a smaller scale in KH I itself.
The Keyblade War led to the X-blade being shattered, but by now I believe the X-blade shattered only after someone already successfully used it. The true KH was unlocked, the border shattered and KH's own shadow (the Realm of Darkness) rushed forward to blank the universe in Darkness, swallowing KH itself in the process. With the X-blade destroyed, all means to relock the border were lost and thus no one could save the true KH nor the Realm of Light.
The hearts of the Princesses might probably have been the last hearts born from the true KH before it was swallowed and they were sheltered/saved by the children who eventually rebuild the world (much like Sora took in the "newborn" hearts of Roxas and Xion and Kairi with Naminé). As we know by now that hearts can spawn from other hearts, this might also explain how the hearts of the Princesses need not to be exactly the same hearts over all generations, as the hearts of the current Princesses might have been spawned by the hearts of a previous generation of Princesses and since we have yet to see a heart spawning a new heart of the opposite gender (Xion doesn't really count, as she wasn't spawned by a heart per se but her heart was built from a bunch of memories and then nurtured by connections), we might have an explanation as to why the Princesses are always all female: Because the originals were.
Those children who restored the world however eventually found a different way to reestablish the border that worked without the true KH and the X-blade, most likely using the hearts of the Princesses and the hearts of worlds like LoD and Radiant Garden, thus establishing the system we see in the current series.
Without the true KH though the Light Realm could not be fully restored, or as Yen Sid puts it: "even the brightest world will have its dark corners". It is entirely possible though that the surviving children did not even want to fully restore everything as the memory of the catastrophe the citizens of the united world eventually spawned was still so fresh. This was why they established the new rules of all smaller worlds being isolated from each other, possibly limited the number of active Keyblades and repurposed them from weapons of conquest to weapons of protection.

Looking at KH I, it is Sora who replicates the process from the end of the Keyblade War on a smaller scale. By using the Keyblade of Heart he unlocked his own heart which was swallowed by its own Darkness. In the process releasing Kairi's heart which also completed the Keyblade of Heart in the process.
With all seven hearts together (even if it was only for a short time), the replacement for the true KH was complete and the last lock (the Door to Darkness) was unlocked.
After the unlocking, the Keyblade of Heart shattered just like the X-blade and the border was about to come crashing down again. This time however the Princesses were already around (in contrast to the time of the Keyblade War) so they could hold the Darkness back, preventing the border from totally collapsing again.
Eventually, Sora and Mickey stabilized the border again by using yet another different way, by using a Light Keyblade and its fitting Dark Counterpart, which again replicates the core function of the X-blade and the Keyblade of Heart.
 

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^ This is either madness or brilliance. I now wonder what or who tried to claim when the Xblade initially shattered.
The Xblade shattering after use would make sense to me. It exists is that KH can't be used so it's kinda have no purpose if it ever was used.
 

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Wow, this thread got into a whole different direction, but nevertheless here are the quotes for Madam Ava's (アヴァ様) name:

Boy with blue hair at Fountain Plaza:
確か、キツネの仮面の
予知者様だったから、
アヴァ様じゃないかな?
最近、噴水広場で
よく見かけるよ

Translation by Kazr10:
I think it is the Foreteller with a fox's mask. Could it be Madam Ava? Recently, she is frequently seen at the Fountain Plaza.

Girl with long pink hair:
エフェメラって
銀髪の子でしょ?
アヴァ様と話してるのを
見かけたなぁ。
アヴァ様のことを
よく知ってる友達が
一人いるんだけど……
今はミッションに出かけていて
街を離れてるの。
戻ったら話を聞くといいよ

Translation by Kazr10:
Ephemera? You mean the kid with the silver hair? I saw him talking with Madam Ava recently. I have a friend who knows more about Madam Ava, but he is out of town on a mission. I'll ask him when he returns.
 

Sephiroth0812

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^ This is either madness or brilliance. I now wonder what or who tried to claim when the Xblade initially shattered.
The Xblade shattering after use would make sense to me. It exists is that KH can't be used so it's kinda have no purpose if it ever was used.

Madness? This. is. Kingdom Hearts!

But seriously, I'd say it is probably a bit of both as KH is not exactly known for true subtlety, but does have its fair share of allusions and similarities happening across generations.

I wonder about that though. If the X-blade would automatically shatter after being used, all possibilities of undoing the damage or keep it in check would also be gone, which is why I theorized that the surviving children had to come up with this new method involving the Princesses' hearts as substitutes in order to rebuild the world.
Thus, I wouldn't exactly say that the X-blade shattered automatically, but after whoever used the X-blade at the end of the apocalyptic war, another event happened that actually caused the X-blade's destruction.
There are rumors about one of the Foretellers being a traitor, but to who does he or she betray the others to? The Darkness? Last time I checked, the Darkness as an element has no will of its own. The ominuous sixth Apprentice? Possible...
However, what I mainly wanted to point out is that maybe the traitorous Foreteller eventually regretted his/her actions and tried to set things right again by either attacking the one who took possession of and used the X-blade or by trying to use the X-blade him-/herself to try and undo the vast damage caused, but it was already too late for that and the X-blade was either destroyed during the following struggle or shattered by the sheer pressure of the events happening around.

As a metaphor, maybe we should look at what happened when Ventus finally won his very final battle: He managed to destroy the proto-X-blade as well as Vanitas, but since his heart was a part of this proto-blade too it got heavily damaged in the process.
In the scene right after the battle when Ven gives the relieved smile before starting to fade, his Keyblade shatters, most likely because of the damage to his heart as Keyblades are said to be connected to the hearts of their wielders.
Now the X-blade is tied to the true KH as its counterpart, Guardian and key, and the condition that made the X-blade shatter I theorize would be the moment when the true KH is finally fully swallowed by the Darkness.


Haha, my mind just got blown, again. That actually explains a lot.

It is a possible explanation, yes.
It's nonetheless just a theory/interpretation of mine though so it should probably not be taken as the definite explanation just yet. ;)
 

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I wonder about that though. If the X-blade would automatically shatter after being used
I was mainly going by the comparison. The keyblade in KH1 shattered immediately so just went with that. xD

However, what I mainly wanted to point out is that maybe the traitorous Foreteller eventually regretted his/her actions and tried to set things right again by either attacking the one who took possession of and used the X-blade or by trying to use the X-blade him-/herself to try and undo the vast damage caused, but it was already too late for that and the X-blade was either destroyed during the following struggle or shattered by the sheer pressure of the events happening around.
Tbh I'd find it hard to believe that a person who would bring on armageddon would feel regret at any point.
 

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Tbh I'd find it hard to believe that a person who would bring on armageddon would feel regret at any point.

Post-armageddon remorse is hardly the most absurd thing this franchise has given us.

It might also help if we knew the exact circumstances of the betrayal: who did it, what exactly did he/she betray the others to, and why. The traitor might have done it because they were plotting to annihilate the universe for the lolz... or maybe they were mislead by someone *cough sixthapprentice cough* and realized too late that their actions just doomed everyone. As Mr. Robe Guy would say, "One who knows nothing can understand nothing." That's kinda our problem here... we don't know enough.
 

Sephiroth0812

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^It's a well thought out theory, nonetheless.

Thanks, it mainly came to me when I was looking into parallels and similarities again.
You seldom go wrong in the KH series when looking/searching for parallels and similarities, even when the events and persons in question are generations apart, because Nomura apparently just likes to include these themes in the series again and again.
He may not give a damn about blood relations and family, but the characters being deeply connected with each other otherwise has been often his shtick.

In a way, although some people may disagree, I see the current wave of speculation and theories regarding Ephemera and the Foretellers as very similar to the time when the secret ending of KH II Final Mix was first revealed and it was confirmed by Nomura that the scene in question was ten years before KH 1.

Back then, everyone and their Xehanort was speculating and theorizing about how the three unknown Keyblade Knights, especially the one looking like Roxas, the Unknown Elder Mage having Ansem SoDs outfit and the Unknown Soldier in Dark Riku's Hula-Uniform relate and/or connect to the current established cast of characters.

Now, with the Foretellers, the Unknown Sixth Apprentice and Ephemera the whole thing repeats again. They're persons from even further in the past and we have an even bigger established cast of characters to connect them to.

I was mainly going by the comparison. The keyblade in KH1 shattered immediately so just went with that. xD

Tbh I'd find it hard to believe that a person who would bring on armageddon would feel regret at any point.

Ah, I see, yea, that train of thought makes sense. Strictly spoken though the Keyblade of Heart is also only an imitation of the X-blade (albeit a more special one than the others), so the original X-blade might be a little more durable.
And what if the traitorous Foreteller didn't want to bring about Armageddon?
Shinji Ikari, the main character of Evangelion, unwittingly nearly caused the destruction of the Earth and humanity twice due to manipulation from the secret Organisation SEELE and his own father while having no real malice himself.
We do not know any of the reasons as to why one of the Foretellers betrays the others, what we do know is however that all five of them want to ultimatively protect the universe and avert the dark prophecy. Whatever the reasons for the betrayal will be, I'm doubtful that it would be because of "lol, screw the ultimate goal, I want to cause the Apocalypse now instead".
Then there are two more things to keep in mind:
a) the prophecy in the tomes does not state exactly how the victory of Darkness and the Apocalypse will come to pass
b) as the newest trailer for 2.8 implies, there seems to be at least one page that is missing from the tomes. Depending on what this missing page contains, the entire situation and scenario might get a different meaning.

That being said, a page in the tomes missing actually strengthens my suspicions that the Foretellers are deliberately set up to inadvertently cause the very calamity they are trying to prevent.
Main questions remaining in this regard are however:
Was the page in question missing from the beginning or did someone/something remove it from the tomes after the Foretellers already got it.
Who removed this page and how was he/she able to do so?

Post-armageddon remorse is hardly the most absurd thing this franchise has given us.

It might also help if we knew the exact circumstances of the betrayal: who did it, what exactly did he/she betray the others to, and why. The traitor might have done it because they were plotting to annihilate the universe for the lolz... or maybe they were mislead by someone *cough sixthapprentice cough* and realized too late that their actions just doomed everyone. As Mr. Robe Guy would say, "One who knows nothing can understand nothing." That's kinda our problem here... we don't know enough.

As you say, if the traitorous Foreteller has other goals than actually causing the Apocalypse, I can imagine him/her being utterly devastated and in despair once he/she realizes what his/her actions ultimatively caused.
Think about Terra inadvertently helping in the defeat of Master Eraqus. All he wanted to do was protect Ventus, he never intended to actually harm Eraqus and certainly didn't expect Xehanort to step in and blast Eraqus from behind.
For the traitorous Foreteller, it might be similar but of course with a much much bigger impact as it leads to everyone but the children who will rebuild the universe (which I suspect to be the ones who are recruited across unions by Vulpeus/Madam Ava) perishing and the downfall of the true KH.
 

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Ah, I see, yea, that train of thought makes sense. Strictly spoken though the Keyblade of Heart is also only an imitation of the X-blade (albeit a more special one than the others), so the original X-blade might be a little more durable.
Normally I'd agree but given that we know the original Xblade did shatter leads me to think its not exactly durable itself.
Kinda like a nuke. Both weapons of vast destruction but both can easily be set off. However that could just mean someone shattered it intentionally as well. (like as a last act to stop whoever is after it from getting it)

Sephiroth0812 said:
And what if the traitorous Foreteller didn't want to bring about Armageddon?

That being said, a page in the tomes missing actually strengthens my suspicions that the Foretellers are deliberately set up to inadvertently cause the very calamity they are trying to prevent.
Main questions remaining in this regard are however:
Was the page in question missing from the beginning or did someone/something remove it from the tomes after the Foretellers already got it.
Who removed this page and how was he/she able to do so?
That's something that goes both ways though mate. Unlike Shinji, this person (whoever they were) intentionally took the last page that told the end, set up what he could to bring it about by betraying the others and so on.
Whether it was purposely evil or righteous in the persons own mind they still weren't the kind to suddenly find remorse. (If they were it'd be incredibly horrible writing imo)

For all we know this person was like Xehanort and wanted to reshape the world and did anything they could to do so.
My basic point is this set up doesn't leave much room for a personality that wouldn't know they was brining mass destruction nor feel remorse. If they didn't intend Armageddon then I'd see them being more pissed at their failure than guilt ridden over it. (possibly leaving behind things to carry on their will to try again) (like a certain keyblade)
 

Sephiroth0812

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Normally I'd agree but given that we know the original Xblade did shatter leads me to think its not exactly durable itself.
Kinda like a nuke. Both weapons of vast destruction but both can easily be set off. However that could just mean someone shattered it intentionally as well. (like as a last act to stop whoever is after it from getting it)
I guess we just don't know enough about the X-blade and what exactly happened that made it shatter (does anyone realize that we're all basically going Xehanort right now? Contemplating about what happened during and after the first Keyblade War?)

Someone intentionally shattering it is of course also possible, that's the decision Ventus made too with the incomplete prototype. Eraqus too said something along the lines that the X-blade has no place in any world, so it being shattered/destroyed is probably the safer state.

That's something that goes both ways though mate. Unlike Shinji, this person (whoever they were) intentionally took the last page that told the end, set up what he could to bring it about by betraying the others and so on.
Whether it was purposely evil or righteous in the persons own mind they still weren't the kind to suddenly find remorse. (If they were it'd be incredibly horrible writing imo)

For all we know this person was like Xehanort and wanted to reshape the world and did anything they could to do so.
My basic point is this set up doesn't leave much room for a personality that wouldn't know they was brining mass destruction nor feel remorse. If they didn't intend Armageddon then I'd see them being more pissed at their failure than guilt ridden over it. (possibly leaving behind things to carry on their will to try again) (like a certain keyblade)

Do we have any confirmation that it was the traitorous Foreteller who removed that page though? Even if he/she did it, we don't know the reason why, I think it's a little early to designate the traitor among the Foretellers as an ax-crazy lunatic ala Xehanort and the big mastermind behind everything. The Traitor-Foreteller might also be something similar to KH 1-Riku, Terra or Lea/Axel in type, it doesn't have to be the "Xehanort"-type.
That being said, I get the feeling that we are looking at this situation from an entirely different premise. I am not going by the assumption that the traitor among the Foretellers is the central main villain who orchestrates everything, but rather a secondary antagonist who helps the true orchestrator reaching his/her goal and that possibly without knowing that true goal. There is still the Sixth Apprentice to keep in mind as well as the original "Seekers of Darkness" mentioned in x[chi]. I do not follow chi constantly, but as far as I know these original Seekers have not made a single appearance in chi yet nor is it really known how many there are of them.

This personality you mention here is likely out there in the old world of fairytales and would probably also act as you describe, that I agree with, I'm just not yet convinced that person definitely being the traitor among the Foretellers. The initial story premise says that all five Foretellers share the same ultimate goal to prevent the prophecy and save the light, yet each of them uses vastly different methods. If one of them would be like Xehanort the premise that they all share the same ultimate goal would be false.
There has to be a reason as to why one of the Foretellers eventually turns decisively against the other four, a sort of trigger if you so want. What if, for example, this Foreteller somehow gets convinced that the other Foretellers are the "bad guys" and no longer following the ultimate goal? Manipulation, Coercion and well placed Misinformation can sometimes work wonders, especially if the target already has some insecurity, jealousy or other emotional issues to deal with.
The Goat Keyblade is not in possession of any of the Foretellers as far as we know nor did it appear in Chi anywhere yet, although the hints of it being heavily involved with the "evil" that orchestrated the whole catastrophic events in the past are definitely palpable
 

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I think we should forge the X-Blade anew and throw rocks at it to see what happens

So you mean like an "endurance test" for the X-blade?

Well, the Empire in Star Wars once did such a thing with Stormtroopers (rocks were part of it too):
[video=youtube;wcbkWgCy4Gg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcbkWgCy4Gg[/video]

Although I do doubt that the X-blade can dance like that Stormtooper...;P
 

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I guess we just don't know enough about the X-blade and what exactly happened that made it shatter (does anyone realize that we're all basically going Xehanort right now? Contemplating about what happened during and after the first Keyblade War?)
I not only realize but wonder every day how even he knows. lol

Someone intentionally shattering it is of course also possible, that's the decision Ventus made too with the incomplete prototype. Eraqus too said something along the lines that the X-blade has no place in any world, so it being shattered/destroyed is probably the safer state.
I'd see it as being one of the most likely reasons. It's existence keeps KH present but it also puts everything in danger by allowing access to that which no access should be had.

Do we have any confirmation that it was the traitorous Foreteller who removed that page though? Even if he/she did it, we don't know the reason why, I think it's a little early to designate the traitor among the Foretellers as an ax-crazy lunatic ala Xehanort and the big mastermind behind everything. The Traitor-Foreteller might also be something similar to KH 1-Riku, Terra or Lea/Axel in type, it doesn't have to be the "Xehanort"-type.
The point I'm making is that we have no confirmations. You gave one example and I gave another to show that anything really goes at this point. I personally just see a remorseful villain unlikely.
I just assume foreteller for now. As always though I also find their master an awfully suspect individual too.

That being said, I get the feeling that we are looking at this situation from an entirely different premise. I am not going by the assumption that the traitor among the Foretellers is the central main villain who orchestrates everything, but rather a secondary antagonist who helps the true orchestrator reaching his/her goal and that possibly without knowing that true goal. There is still the Sixth Apprentice to keep in mind as well as the original "Seekers of Darkness" mentioned in x[chi]. I do not follow chi constantly, but as far as I know these original Seekers have not made a single appearance in chi yet nor is it really known how many there are of them.
I'm not on a premise that it could only be a foreteller. Just the absence of the 6th leaves me, for now, under the assumption they're either the big bad or in on it.
The fact a page is missing from a book held by their master yet with five copies among, meaning as far as we know now it's an exclusive text, tells me a foreteller is more likely involved than some random master thief.

Basically going by most logical deduction for now.

This personality you mention here is likely out there in the old world of fairytales and would probably also act as you describe, that I agree with, I'm just not yet convinced that person definitely being the traitor among the Foretellers. The initial story premise says that all five Foretellers share the same ultimate goal to prevent the prophecy and save the light, yet each of them uses vastly different methods. If one of them would be like Xehanort the premise that they all share the same ultimate goal would be false.
There has to be a reason as to why one of the Foretellers eventually turns decisively against the other four, a sort of trigger if you so want. What if, for example, this Foreteller somehow gets convinced that the other Foretellers are the "bad guys" and no longer following the ultimate goal? Manipulation, Coercion and well placed Misinformation can sometimes work wonders, especially if the target already has some insecurity, jealousy or other emotional issues to deal with.
The Goat Keyblade is not in possession of any of the Foretellers as far as we know nor did it appear in Chi anywhere yet, although the hints of it being heavily involved with the "evil" that orchestrated the whole catastrophic events in the past are definitely palpable
Your making an assumption the traitor is a Riku then. I'm mostly was throwing an example to show we know not much. I do however highly doubt the instigator was remorseful. Now whether that main catalyst is a foreteller or otherwise I dont dare try to defend or confirm. Like you just going on assumptions of what I know now combined with the notion that I doubt any bringer of armageddon knows remorse.

It is the "oldest" and from what I see of your posts keyblades were original ill intent so I think it being bad is an 80%. It's also why I find the master more suspect than any of them. The foretellers can make keyblades or whatever it is they do to get such big guilds so quick.
To me that leaves two possibilities. 1) their master, with his eyes or other means, found a way to replicate that which shouldn't be (the Xblade) 2) they're using their tomes which views the future to make them in some form of temporal paradox like situation

Naturally 2 goes against the notion they was ill intended to begin with since, like you just said, at least 4 to 5 of that group wanted more positive outcomes. Which is what leans me to option 1 and their master being an incredibly questionable being.
 
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