The Identity of Chirithy's Master

[gelandporn]

So LightUpTheSky in another thread was actually taking this in a similar direction to where I wanted to go, and I want to take a second to address her post:

I think I might have just realized something that furthers the possibility of Kairi being the one dreaming about these events taking place in Key.

Mainly because it looks like to me that Dream Drop Distance's secret ending was actually foretelling II.8 all along.

We have Dream Drop Distance itself in II.8, to perhaps cover the "the darkness awakens" part with Young Master Xehanort's actions in 3D; the "the light in the darkness" part of that secret ending (where it shows Aqua) is being fulfilled by 0.2, so then all that's left is the "leads to the last key" tagline from it (where it shows Kairi). And what else is included in II.8, and has the term "key" in its title? Kingdom Hearts Key: Back Cover.

Kairi's being referred to as "the last key" at the very end of KH3D, and all of these games about the Keyblade War are called "Kingdom Hearts Key something or another". Coincidence? You tell me

I had wanted to talk about this "last key" thing, but for a slightly different reason (and I had not made the connection to the title of Chi itself, clever!).

Instead, I was going to relate it to Donald and Goofy's use of the word "key" in the chi Anniversary events:

Goofy: Oh yeah! While we're at it, the matter in the King's letter-
Donald: The "key" right? Okay, let's go look for it!

[...]

Donald, Goofy：The Key!

Goofy: In any case, it seems that this is the real "key".
Donald: Is this kid really the "key" the King told us?

[...]

Donald: This kid is definitely the "key"!

What seems immediately apparent is that Donald and Goofy are in a scenario similar to the one in Traverse Town during KH1. Searching for a "key" per the King's instruction. So they don't know what a Keyblade is?

Well, actually, they do! The above transcript comes from the 2nd Anniversary event. In the 1st Anniversary event:

Donald: Hmm... Oh yeah, the Keyblade! Why do you have one?

Donald does use the term. So why are they using "key" instead of Keyblade?
Well, notice at a couple points they call you, the Player, the "key."

A key that is not a Keyblade per se. What could they be alluding to?


The Key to Return Hearts. Nomura said that in KH3, SDG will be searching for the Key to Return Hearts without even being sure of what it is. It could be a keyblade, some other item, perhaps even a person.

As to how this relates to Kairi, it's actually pretty simple.
Remember that Kairi did something unprecedented in KH1, something that has not happened since. She just flat out returned Sora's heart, without even the use of a Keyblade.

Return. Hearts.

The "Key."

Or, as the KH3D secret ending marks Kairi, the "last key."

Now I'm not saying that Kairi necessarily is the Key to Return Hearts, but she's a damn good place to start based on her ability. So, basically, if Kairi were in the Sleeping Worlds for her Mark of Mastery, I could see Mickey, Donald and Goofy entering her dreams to look for this key.

And obviously, they're not going to find the Key since that's KH3's territory, but yeah.

Your being perfectly clear but it's apparent our arguments to you aren't. No ones saying something asinine like she's gonna sprout dark blots on the heart from anger or anything similar to it.

I don't think you understand my whole point about not saying something like "Maybe if Kairi gets mad enough she'll just develop darkness out of nowhere!"

You said in that post, and again in this one, that "[my] argument is that she basically can "just cause""... which is... not at all true. I was offering that as an example of "just because." As in, pulling an argument out of one's ass with no discernible evidence.

Now I totally admit when my theories are a stretch (if you go back in my threads, you'll notice a trend of warning labels stating something along the lines of "this idea is really out there" lol) and you're free to feel what you want about the plausibility, but my argument is "just 'cuz"? No. Like, that just makes me think you either didn't read my post or didn't understand it.

I'm arguing from analogy. Literally, I'm using evidence from one case (ie Sora and Roxas), and applying it to another (Kairi and Namine). You can't in good faith call that "just 'cuz." In fact, arguing from analogy is the bulk of theorizing that is done for this series, it's one of the few tools we have for extrapolating to figure out where things might be headed.

Your also not taking into account Namines unique existence into your own argument. Just because Sora felt something of Roxas does not mean it goes both ways. Your making jumps in assumption there.

Ummm... Namine's unique existence is what my argument hinges on lol.
Literally, I'm not sure if there would be any viable way to get darkness in Kairi's heart without some exceptional, bizarre circumstances. Like Namine. As I said.

I'm making assumptions? I'm inferring from another case to build the theory. I'm not stating it as fact. I acknowledge that it's just as well a possibility that Kairi cannot feel Namine's emotions. She either does or does not, and implementing one or the other in a theory is completely valid. We've seen with Sora and Roxas that these vicarious feelings are possible and thus the question is on the table as something that ought to be addressed. It's not something I'm pulling from nowhere... or "just because."

If your gonna use Namines unique nature to argue against the norm then the norm of Roxas-Sora must also be looked at with grains of salt.

Roxas and Sora are not a norm....

Especially when we've never seen or had written words to say or even hint that Kairi has felt Namines feelings or memories. (unlike Sora in which we see him feel moments or when Roxas shows him his memories in DDD)

This is an extremely flimsy argument. You realize we've barely seen Kairi since the events of KH2, right? There's been virtually no opportunity to address it.

Eidt: Hell for all we know it's Namines darkness just running lose within the dreams but not actually corrupting Kairis own heart. Things being in a dream in the first place leaves any concretes iffy due to the nature of dreams in general. (such as how heartless behave upon destruction in Chi or how the RoS has dream eaters which devour dreams/nightmares rather than hearts like the heartless do in other realms)

You realize this is going toward what I've been saying? I don't know if you're getting hung up on my use of the term "corrupted" because it's vague or what, but my entire point of even suggesting this in the first place was to justify the presence of Dream Eaters (darkness) in Kairi's dream.

I'm not trying to argue that Kairi is going to have her heart consumed by darkness or something. While I do think it would make for an interesting character arc if Kairi had to deal with internal darkness (if only because she never has), it doesn't have to be something heavily addressed. The presence of darkness in her in some capacity is just a natural consequence of the theory, or it at least bends in that direction.

 

[LightUpTheSky452]

Not to turn this thread into a complete discussion on if it's possible for PoH to get darkness in their hearts or not, but...

I just watched an entire English subbed walkthrough of Chi, and I noticed that Chirithy said something interesting after Snow White bit into the apple. "Fortunately, she wasn't swallowed by the Darkness. But she fell into a deep, deep slumber."

To be honest, I think Chirithy's just saying that in place of saying something like, "she didn't die", but what do you guys think? Does this deserve some thought? Is Chirithy hinting that maybe it is possible for the Princess' hearts to be consumed by darkness? And is that maybe another reason Chirithy seems so intent on making sure the player keeps an eye on Alice and Snow White?

 

[Anagram]

I don't think you understand my whole point about not saying something like "Maybe if Kairi gets mad enough she'll just develop darkness out of nowhere!"

You said in that post, and again in this one, that "[my] argument is that she basically can "just cause""... which is... not at all true. I was offering that as an example of "just because." As in, pulling an argument out of one's ass with no discernible evidence.

I understand your point perfectly and I apologize if the phrasing offended you but it truly is just an argument based on it happening just cause.
This doesn't mean it's an ass pull but that it's a theory with nothing to tip the scale in te direction or happening or not happening. It's all just big blurry what if territory which is why I neither side with you nor Sephiroth0812. My initial post was even pointing out there was nothing pointing towards either of your stances being right or wrong.

It is nothing but a possible what if or just cause and I've tried to agree to disagree respectfully to that twice and will so again after this. It's obvious your gonna continue to defend the point when I see nothing of your point to let believe this theory.

Now I totally admit when my theories are a stretch (if you go back in my threads, you'll notice a trend of warning labels stating something along the lines of "this idea is really out there" lol) and you're free to feel what you want about the plausibility, but my argument is "just 'cuz"? No. Like, that just makes me think you either didn't read my post or didn't understand it.

I'm arguing from analogy. Literally, I'm using evidence from one case (ie Sora and Roxas), and applying it to another (Kairi and Namine). You can't in good faith call that "just 'cuz." In fact, arguing from analogy is the bulk of theorizing that is done for this series, it's one of the few tools we have for extrapolating to figure out where things might be headed.

I can and I am calling this theory on just cause because it frankly is. I did read your post but it's obvious mine is being taken the wrong way. While I don't care how my posts are read I don't want you to think I'm not understanding your theory. =P (especially if you think it's on purpose)

The point is your analyzing something that isn't easily compared. There is nothing showing Kairi and Namine had the same shared moments like Roxas and Sora did.

The two versions of unique is also different enough to call any comparison of the duos into question.
Roxas, while special, is made up of Soras body as nobodies are. Namine is literally made of nothing with nothing of Kairi. Sora and Roxas coexisted which affected Roxas profoundly but didn't really affect Sora till KH2. Namine was never shown to be affected by Kairi.
You see?

The shining fact here is there is no norm, not is there enough to take this analysis as more than just cause.

Ummm... Namine's unique existence is what my argument hinges on lol.
Literally, I'm not sure if there would be any viable way to get darkness in Kairi's heart without some exceptional, bizarre circumstances. Like Namine. As I said.

I'm making assumptions? I'm inferring from another case to build the theory. I'm not stating it as fact. I acknowledge that it's just as well a possibility that Kairi cannot feel Namine's emotions. She either does or does not, and implementing one or the other in a theory is completely valid. We've seen with Sora and Roxas that these vicarious feelings are possible and thus the question is on the table as something that ought to be addressed. It's not something I'm pulling from nowhere...

Yes her unique nature is the center of your theory but only in a positive light. Your not taking into account that this unique nature could very well mean she's behaved nothing like any nobody, especially Roxas.

I never said your pulling it from nowhere. Only that it's got nothing for me to believe it or see it as more of possible. If you had an actual scene or text of Namine showing connected bonds to Kairi it'd be a different story.
In other words this is exactly what I mean in making assumptions because you are based on unique natures and things happening that we don't know if happened between two characters hardly seen.

This is an extremely flimsy argument. You realize we've barely seen Kairi since the events of KH2, right? There's been virtually no opportunity to address it.

That my friend is a two way street. Not only is Kairi hardly seen but neither is Namine. Beween KH1 (kairi), CoM (Namine) and KH2 they got more or less the same amount of screen time. =P

You realize this is going toward what I've been saying? I don't know if you're getting hung up on my use of the term "corrupted" because it's vague or what, but my entire point of even suggesting this in the first place was to justify the presence of Dream Eaters (darkness) in Kairi's dream

I'm not trying to argue that Kairi is going to have her heart consumed by darkness or something. While I do think it would make for an interesting character arc if Kairi had to deal with internal darkness (if only because she never has), it doesn't have to be something heavily addressed. The presence of darkness in her in some capacity is just a natural consequence of the theory, or it at least bends in that direction.

I do realize it. It's why I mentioned it in my first reply to you and it's why I pointed out you ignored it in my second post. Your the one that got hung up on a term of "just cause" which led us here. If you'd look back I never said your theory is half added or impossible. That I only see it as a what if due to lack of concrete support and taking unique natures as your main argument. =\

Edit. To me a theory to let me lean tkwards possible over "just cause" would be your rebirth theory. It took things we know it seen in-game and then added or backed your idea parts which is what a theory needs to me. This one is just making the assumption Namine and Kairi behaved like Roxas or Sora. I just can't back it as much for the reasons of both Kairi & Namine being barely seen and the fact that your comparing unique examples when Namines unique is much more so than Roxas.
The only character with a unique nature more akin to Roxas would be Xemnas. Because the only differences they have is Xemnas other was a heartless while Roxas other became human again.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I'm afraid I agree with the PoH and darkness part. While we can't say for sure they can't grow it we do know for a fact that so far we know not one case of any doing so and we have multiple cases of their hearts being taken by beings of darkness or being exposed to the dark realm itself without ill effect.
It would just seem hollow or counterproductive to their role if they could gain darkness. Whats the point of 7 pure lights if they can be tainted?

Just gonna have to wait and see on that one I say. But I'm not gonna go with she can for what is basically "just cause".
I will agree though that Namine could effect the situation. Even if Kairi can't be tainted or gain darkness Namine isn't of that same PoH stature and has used CoD before. Meaning even if Kairi is taint free maybe Namines darkness can form the nightmares which would attack Kairi's heart. Being pure her heart is after all a prime target.

I mean let's be fair here. While your bringing up "why can't she?" to Sephiroth, your own argument is that she basically can "just cause" when it also has no really valid backup. It's arguing a thing neither of you can really win or lose here without further proof on the matter.

I hate to say it, but it somehow gave me some "Larxene012"-vibes, which possibly why I reacted a little more fierce than normal.
It is perfectly reasonable though that Naminé's Darkness may create Nightmares, yet without actually contaminating Kairi's heart.

You would think so but the sheer lack of coherency shows he either doesn't care or know how to be coherent properly. That or they keep slamming him with so many projects that he just can't overlook properly. (maybe all of them)

True. There are some stories were a proper retcon is welcome. lmao


But that is the thing. The vagueness helped these characters. It wasn't something that needed a clarification or at least if it did it needed a better one because the clarification we were given made them not only as hollow as the apprentice but also made Xehanort completely unbelievable as a villain for his foresight and so on. (which is saying a damn lot for a magical and fantastical setting)

haha I still laugh over the Apprentice ordeal. Talk about wasted potential though I dont really mind in his case. We knew not enough about him for me to consider him a loss like Ansem or Xemnas. He is however, as your pointing out here, my main reason for considering that, as of DDD, no Xehanort had truly free thought or individuality. All just puppets to a spread out mind and heart.
Of course Xehanorts that started out as other people like Braig have that individuality.

So true. Depending on this 'will' it could make even Xehanort a puppet which would kinda suck devaluing him even further. That scene, I think, was meant to answer the amnesia question but seems to just be a part of the conundrum now. (though in my opinion it clearly shows there was only ever old Xehanort)(when you combine the scene with Xehanorts "it was all me" revelation anyway)
Sad but true. Another nail in the coffin of the fanbase after the arrival of the handheld three. They left nothing to talk about in a bad way down to even the character level.

I'm firmly believing that this comes from Nomura always thinking about the battle system first and putting more thought into flashy moves and extra (dare I say unneccessary?) gimmicks like Drive Forms rather than story coherence. Of course, him overseeing several projects at once also doesn't help, especially when in regards to KH he is (as of his own words) the only one who knows all story twists and how they connect together. It is not too surprising that scenario writers can repeatedly screw up if they don't know the whole picture or don't get enough feedback from the only one who knows.

I can get behind your reasoning all the same. Looking at how it was done, I'm almost tempted to assume that in this case, Nomura went out of his way to end the complexity in the most cheap and quick manner possible by tossing all vagueness completely out in favor of having it all Xehanort. By doing it like this, he can now "safely" ignore anything that might still need clearing up in regards to this topic and instead focus on other, new complexities that apparently now take precedence like this whole "fate" and "prophecy" mumbo-jumbo and all the additional clutter that is introduced by the Goat-Keyblade having a will and the whole x[chi]-, Foreteller- and Ephemera-stuff added on top of it.
It's almost like Nomura took up a scissors thinking "Now which mysteries do I not feel like to flesh out or explain in-depth anymore, let's cut those since I have now much more fancy ideas about the Keyblade War and the Foretellers."

KH requires a certain level of suspension of disbelief for sure as well as a certain acceptance for an overall largely idealistic fantasy setting or one might never be able to enjoy it (which is also why I don't get those people who constantly demand the series go get even more darker turns and "mature" content when it was never laid out as such from the start), but Master Xehanort is certainly straddling a thin line.
About the Apprentice I think we're more on the same wavelength as I never deemed him to be much of a special/noteworthy Xehanort to begin with. When I recall one or two forum members even declaring Apprentice Nort to be the "main villain" of the series I really had to scratch my head as we never see or hear anything of this "character" outside of two measly scenes.
The Apprentice is even more obscure than Kairi for Meow-Wows sake...

That too gives another hint towards my suspicion that Nomura simple threw out some old mysteries in favor of some new ones. The Goat-Keyblade being something "special" also did not come up until the advent of the 2.5 HD remaster which does, just as the extra scenes with Maleficent and Pete about the Book of Prophecies in Re: Coded itself, blatantly draw (almost forces) connections to x[chi] and its lore.
I still remember the times where it was said even from official sources that x[chi] would be non-canon to the official overaching story, then came that Foreteller's script which was stated to be the only canon aspect and as of now it almost seems as if the whole x[chi]-shit (pardon my language) is more important to KH III's story than the entire build-up of the handheld titles is supposed to be.

Yep, it's so bad even that Nomura most likely realized "Damn I've left too many characters of interest incapacitated that could still be explored. Time to invent the "Key to return Hearts" and fix in some comebacks."

No need to apologize but if I remember right you was arguing they had individuality while the other was arguing they basically didn't. At least in terms of beings born from Xehanort (apprentice, ansem, xemnas) so it's ironic to see you say how little they have now. lol
Sadly I agree with whoever it is you was debating with. To me it was all basically Xehanort at this point. If there was any individuality it was just fragments of Xehanorts to me at this point. (kinda like remote control xehanorts)
Might be another one of those topics for another thread at this point maybe...
I never considered much a Terra influence. I was just bringing up the topic of that time. Before DDD the influence I believed they had was largely fragmented mindsets and memory loss.

Oh, I still think that they are not just mindless drones, but after reading some essays and other posts about the whole issue around the net I did come to the conclusion that their overall portrayal in the audience's view certainly took quite a blow.
To say it practically, both Ansem and Xemnas were demoted from being major villains of their own (even main arc villains of their respective games) to be either Generals, or worse, errand boys of the supreme big bad. Kid Icarus: Uprising for the Nintendo 3DS has something similar with Medusa, the "Supreme Leader of the Underworld" which you fight for the first third of the game until the real big bad, Hades, comes into play revealing that Medusa although being a goddess herself is nothing but a higher-level servant of him. It's somewhat less jarring because it's written decently and Medusa does get quite a characterisation on her own that isn't touched by Hades being her Master at all.

I also think I got something mixed up here with the whole Influence-thing, possibly because I'm used to those who stubbornly cling to the notion that there has to be some active Terra-influence (the worst cases obviously being Ansem SoD/Riku, Xemnas/Aqua or Xemnas/Ven-shippers, eegh...) I tend to get a little stingy when that topic comes up.

Aizen is like DDD Xehanort taken up to 20 rather than eleven. His plan never fails, he's powerful on a godlike level before he's even the final boss or gets what he wants and even when he was finally defeated they couldn't kill him due to his power. Aizen is what I fear Xehanorts end result will be as of DDD. =[

The consistency was definitely thrown out for this purpose but given just how many are disinterested or even annoyed by him at this point to me says the wham-effect had an actual inverse effect. If it were just a handful I'd say it's just me but no matter where I go I rarely find people pleased or caring with Xehanorts development. At most the only Xehanort that still seems somewhat liked is the young one. lol (because he's the bishie-nort)
(sssshhhh dont mention the shippers, they lurk~)

I had to give up. It just wasn't fun anymore....in fact the more I delved the more I hated it. By taking the casuals approach I can somewhat care again and at least enjoy playing KH1, Aqua and to some extents KH2FM.
That actually is a decent scenario idea. Is there anything contradicting the Coded-DDD running parallel idea?
Surprisingly the time travel in DDD was my only major story gripe and it wasn't major at that. Thanks to other series I have followed time travel is easy for me to wrap my mind around. String theory, Novikov, alteration, I got all that time jargon down fine. What I hated about DDD was honestly it's gameplay. I literally can't stand to sit and play it.

Sadly I do not follow up on Chi. I gave up the mythos game after the final handheld BBS came about. (didn't even bother with DDD) I do plan to try unchained though if it's still free. lol (only the stubborn wont try that which is free haha)

That character sounds more like a God-mode sue than an actual character, lol, I guess it falls to KH III to show if Xehanort will end up becoming a total same case like this as well or if they manage to still "take the corner" with him.

Additionally on top of all that is that these developments make most of the efforts the other characters made throughout the whole series look inferior if not outright useless. It's one thing to have several backup plans to come back from a defeat, all but negating the defeat can surely make people sour.
Bishie-nort who trolls the heck out of everyone, competing with Braig for the title of the biggest troll in the KH-verse.
(Heh, I thought so far KHInsider is luckily rather sparsely involved with all the shipping-nonsense bar the constantly popping up Sora/Kairi-stuff because apparently all people can think of when it comes to Kairi is making her Sora's designated bedwarmer...)

It's somewhat sad when those are the only things you still enjoy about it.
The only thing I can think of at a whim that would conflict with this parallel-idea is the content of Mickey's letter at the end of KH 2 since Mickey wrote it after what he learned in Coded. But I think that's something that could be easily remedied by introducing one or two positive Retcons.
My main gripe with the whole time-travel baloney lies still within the fact that there are several concepts and scenarios that could have achieved the very same result without any substantial change while introducing less clutter. Concepts that were at least rudimentarily already established in the series' lore.

That might possibly for the better, lol, as Chi seems to become slowly a whole clusterfuck of its own without even considering its connections to the other titles in the main series.

I'm kinda surprised the castle wasn't an option myself....I was never vastly impressed with the world though. One world I was impressed with was DDD's Fantasia and Grid levels or KH1's Hollow Bastion.
Ssssshhhh, it's Nomura, he's friends with Kojima who's known for random (although often funny) random shit in games. Dont give him ideas. o_o.....

I wont lie I do love simplicity because more often than not it works best. However I have no issues with complexity either. (which you likely assume from my former nature of following the series)
Like you I love a complex puzzle but only if they are coherent, done well and present things in ways to discover the answer.
And as you know KH's complexity does none of these. It's not coherent, many of it's visual cues are easily and often misinterpreted, it's puzzle pieces are all over the damn place and it's rarely done well to the point fans have better ideas half the time. I want good puzzles, not jumbled or halfhearted ones.
Basically put I favor simplicity in KH in favor and/or comparison of what it's "complexity" offers.

Exactly my point. We didn't see that development. Just his emo/angst ride. Not that his emoness wasn't warranted but at the same time it's like Days went out of it's way to try and make me care or feel sad about him or his friends when it did the adverse by shoving it in my face constantly. (I believe it was you who once compared saying Days tried to hard and failed while BBS didn't try enough and failed)

By no means are they out of the ordinary. Remember I said having connected characters isn't bad but he just pushes it to hard. There are people, me included, that know others with personalities and mindsets so similar yet faintly different it's scary. KH just does it a bit poorly or in overly complex and unbelievable ways.

I think that's just a matter of taste on aesthetics though, as I'm generally drawn to more bright and conventionally beautiful places as well as artful architecture.
As if Nomura would read anything we write here, lol.

Yea, basically they're trying to deliver a complex puzzle to solve, but what they manage to do is deliver something that is a puzzle because it's a mess. Like if the person who's responsible of handing out the basket with the puzzle pieces constantly trips and loses a chunk of pieces along the way which are later picked up and stored elsewhere.

It's ironic since that was the initial premise Days was created to show us. As for Roxas' emoness (and sometimes cringeworthy inactivity), I blame these being a side effect of the Xion-show which absorbed nearly the whole plot. The whole thing was so much set up to be a constant pity-party for Xion and shoving it down people's throats oh how bad she has it that Roxas got drawn into it as well and got a little similar, but less grandeur-filled dose of it on the sidelines as if the creators somehow two-thirds through the game realized that Roxas was there too and supposed to be the center-character.
Would you believe me when I say that, out of all the tormented ones over TAV, Naminé, Roxas and Xion, the latter is actually the one I feel and care the least about just because how over the top and all over the place it was for 9/10 of the game?
I certainly don't consider myself a Xion-hater, but her fate, thanks to overdose, didn't really tug my heartstrings at all and if it wasn't for Shimomura's great music I guess her "death"-scene would not be that full of impact as so many claim out on the net.
Yea, I did say that once and I still stand by it. Days overdid it and BBS didn't do enough in that regard, although I personally still feel more for each individual third of the BBS-trio than I did for Xion in the end. Heck, Naminé touched me more on the inside than Xion's overdone throat-shoving drama-show.
As in several issues, KH as a series seems to have a problem finding the right balance in this field as well.

So, if I understand correctly, and remaining with the same example, you'd have less problems with Sora and Ventus being that similar in personality and traits if they had not this exceptional close heart-bond that connects them on a meta-layer?

Some scenes were moved around. The Ven scene in particular. There was another Ven scene in which Xehanort is referring to his heart which was later placed at the Badlands instead when it was previously at Olympus.
We're opposites then because, while we both hate Terras actual portrayal, I would've welcomed a Riku-like route in comparison to what I was given. Could've made them parallels in the sense that Riku is the example of redemption while Terra was the example of damnation. (i.e. it could've been done decent, maybe not grand but better than what we do have)

lol I couldn't participate myself because I can only honestly rank three.
I've never read the novels but if they're like Amano then it should be good. =D

Ah yes, I think I remember that one, it also played out slightly different than the later used scene, as in the Olympus-scene Ven did not fall to his knees clutching his head in pain but simply stood there looking worriedly at MX while Xehanort held up his hand and formed a "ball of Darkness" like in the secret ending of KH2 FM and showed it towards Ven while in the later scene he only made his usual "pedo-hand-wiggles" without any fancy energy balls, but later summoning that floating "X".
From the way the old trailers were build up though I wonder how a "damned" evil Terra would/could really have played out as even all early trailer scenes clearly show Terra to maintain a steady devotion to Ven, it's a little problematic to portray Terra to be "evil" when he still values his friendships so much.

Heh, I'd say the upper part of my signature speaks for itself on that one, and the fact that I like many characters and have no true hate-characters (although I'm still annoyed by both Pete and Demyx) hasn't really changed despite all flaws.
I can't make a full comparison between the novels and manga yet because so far I've only read the novel of the first KH, but that one has gems like Jiminy Cricket interacting with Aerith as well as Donald, Goofy and Sora together reading the parts of the Ansem Reports and trying to make sense of it.
I had not yet time to start the CoM-novel, but if you're interested in a professional assessment of the worth of the novels I think Goldpanner is the right address as she has read nearly every novel in the japanese original.

You realize this is going toward what I've been saying? I don't know if you're getting hung up on my use of the term "corrupted" because it's vague or what, but my entire point of even suggesting this in the first place was to justify the presence of Dream Eaters (darkness) in Kairi's dream.

I'm not trying to argue that Kairi is going to have her heart consumed by darkness or something. While I do think it would make for an interesting character arc if Kairi had to deal with internal darkness (if only because she never has), it doesn't have to be something heavily addressed. The presence of darkness in her in some capacity is just a natural consequence of the theory, or it at least bends in that direction.

While I can now see where this is going, I also think I know why there is somewhat an inherent adversity against this whole "darkness in Kairi's heart"-thingy.

The way you propose these things can be read as wanting to deny Kairi her Princess of Heart-status which has already caused much ruckuss around this forum some months earlier (I don't know if you were around to witness the "Larxene012"-incident), but that one left quite an impact behind and many people quite sour about anything challenging Kairi's status as a Princess of Heart.

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

Grassy wasn't even dancing in that realm, we can all take a deep breath here.

Look, it's looking really likely that X is connected to Kairi. The game uses Kairi as a framing device, and also it's currently centered on Ava who seems to at least share a color scheme with Kairi.

IF Ava is planning on using the hearts of children as a failsafe to rebuild the world and she really is connected to Kairi, there's a really cool potential parallel there with the Fairy Tale and Kairi's past.

Moreover, this gives Kairi some more agency in KH3. Because the Book of Prophecies has a counterpart in the current series, that being Jiminy's Journal and the Datascape. BUT what caused the Journal to become more than a journal in the first place?

Namine's influence.

SO, if this potential connection is actually there this gives Namine, the journal, Kairi, X, the Foretellers, the Realm of Sleep, Xehanort, the Keyblade War AND Maleficent one plotline in KH3 in one swoop. If handled correctly, this could actually solve a lot of narrative issues.

 

[Anagram]

I hate to say it, but it somehow gave me some "Larxene012"-vibes, which possibly why I reacted a little more fierce than normal.
It is perfectly reasonable though that Naminé's Darkness may create Nightmares, yet without actually contaminating Kairi's heart.

That comparison hurts. I apologize though. I'm just bluntly spoken which doesn't always work well online like me accidentally insulting gelandporn there. x(
Indeed very possible which I thought I conveyed....

I'm firmly believing that this comes from Nomura always thinking about the battle system first and putting more thought into flashy moves and extra (dare I say unneccessary?) gimmicks like Drive Forms rather than story coherence. Of course, him overseeing several projects at once also doesn't help, especially when in regards to KH he is (as of his own words) the only one who knows all story twists and how they connect together. It is not too surprising that scenario writers can repeatedly screw up if they don't know the whole picture or don't get enough feedback from the only one who knows.

I can get behind your reasoning all the same. Looking at how it was done, I'm almost tempted to assume that in this case, Nomura went out of his way to end the complexity in the most cheap and quick manner possible by tossing all vagueness completely out in favor of having it all Xehanort. By doing it like this, he can now "safely" ignore anything that might still need clearing up in regards to this topic and instead focus on other, new complexities that apparently now take precedence like this whole "fate" and "prophecy" mumbo-jumbo and all the additional clutter that is introduced by the Goat-Keyblade having a will and the whole x[chi]-, Foreteller- and Ephemera-stuff added on top of it.
It's almost like Nomura took up a scissors thinking "Now which mysteries do I not feel like to flesh out or explain in-depth anymore, let's cut those since I have now much more fancy ideas about the Keyblade War and the Foretellers."

KH requires a certain level of suspension of disbelief for sure as well as a certain acceptance for an overall largely idealistic fantasy setting or one might never be able to enjoy it (which is also why I don't get those people who constantly demand the series go get even more darker turns and "mature" content when it was never laid out as such from the start), but Master Xehanort is certainly straddling a thin line.
About the Apprentice I think we're more on the same wavelength as I never deemed him to be much of a special/noteworthy Xehanort to begin with. When I recall one or two forum members even declaring Apprentice Nort to be the "main villain" of the series I really had to scratch my head as we never see or hear anything of this "character" outside of two measly scenes.
The Apprentice is even more obscure than Kairi for Meow-Wows sake...

That too gives another hint towards my suspicion that Nomura simple threw out some old mysteries in favor of some new ones. The Goat-Keyblade being something "special" also did not come up until the advent of the 2.5 HD remaster which does, just as the extra scenes with Maleficent and Pete about the Book of Prophecies in Re: Coded itself, blatantly draw (almost forces) connections to x[chi] and its lore.
I still remember the times where it was said even from official sources that x[chi] would be non-canon to the official overaching story, then came that Foreteller's script which was stated to be the only canon aspect and as of now it almost seems as if the whole x[chi]-shit (pardon my language) is more important to KH III's story than the entire build-up of the handheld titles is supposed to be.

Yep, it's so bad even that Nomura most likely realized "Damn I've left too many characters of interest incapacitated that could still be explored. Time to invent the "Key to return Hearts" and fix in some comebacks."

That's also incredibly likely. (i dont mind flashy there there is definitely more flash and gimmick than I find necessary myself lol)
You'd think he'd give a layout of what he wants to a scenario writer in that regard. Keeping everything to himself hurts it a bit. Give the writers something so they can foreshadow and other things. Days, while I hated it, did a decent script job due to a bit of localization freedom. Even had legitimately funny moments. (like the stick or Lexeaus bitchslapping Roxas out of nowhere)

That is something I could see easily being true. Trying to reduce the maze of mysteries he's made. Though how he done it felt lacking. If he had went with the idea of Xehanort reforming and simply learning from the others mistakes it'd have been a perfect resolution to that mess.
Fans demanding darker tones usually dont look past the Disney fluff to see the dark undertones. Like Rurans pointed out several times, if you sit and think about it, there's lots of dark things happening.
Agreed. To me the apprentice was there only to explain how Ansem & Xemnas were there. Like how old Xehanort was meant to explain why the apprentice was there. Of course the old ones role got expanded in DDD however.

They actually said Chi wasn't canon at one point? Thats a bit disappointing then. Makes Chi feel a little like forced importance now....
One reason to hope this is a one time revival. Play the revival card to much and you end up with DBZ or Sailor Moon but in a less enjoyable fashion.

Oh, I still think that they are not just mindless drones, but after reading some essays and other posts about the whole issue around the net I did come to the conclusion that their overall portrayal in the audience's view certainly took quite a blow.
To say it practically, both Ansem and Xemnas were demoted from being major villains of their own (even main arc villains of their respective games) to be either Generals, or worse, errand boys of the supreme big bad. Kid Icarus: Uprising for the Nintendo 3DS has something similar with Medusa, the "Supreme Leader of the Underworld" which you fight for the first third of the game until the real big bad, Hades, comes into play revealing that Medusa although being a goddess herself is nothing but a higher-level servant of him. It's somewhat less jarring because it's written decently and Medusa does get quite a characterisation on her own that isn't touched by Hades being her Master at all.

I also think I got something mixed up here with the whole Influence-thing, possibly because I'm used to those who stubbornly cling to the notion that there has to be some active Terra-influence (the worst cases obviously being Ansem SoD/Riku, Xemnas/Aqua or Xemnas/Ven-shippers, eegh...) I tend to get a little stingy when that topic comes up.

I wouldn't say mindless but I definitely view them as drones now.
We all have one of those stingy subjects lol. For the most part I could see were they was coming from on Terra-influence but largely thought the villains as their own until DDD.

That character sounds more like a God-mode sue than an actual character, lol, I guess it falls to KH III to show if Xehanort will end up becoming a total same case like this as well or if they manage to still "take the corner" with him.

Additionally on top of all that is that these developments make most of the efforts the other characters made throughout the whole series look inferior if not outright useless. It's one thing to have several backup plans to come back from a defeat, all but negating the defeat can surely make people sour.
Bishie-nort who trolls the heck out of everyone, competing with Braig for the title of the biggest troll in the KH-verse.
(Heh, I thought so far KHInsider is luckily rather sparsely involved with all the shipping-nonsense bar the constantly popping up Sora/Kairi-stuff because apparently all people can think of when it comes to Kairi is making her Sora's designated bedwarmer...)

It's somewhat sad when those are the only things you still enjoy about it.
The only thing I can think of at a whim that would conflict with this parallel-idea is the content of Mickey's letter at the end of KH 2 since Mickey wrote it after what he learned in Coded. But I think that's something that could be easily remedied by introducing one or two positive Retcons.
My main gripe with the whole time-travel baloney lies still within the fact that there are several concepts and scenarios that could have achieved the very same result without any substantial change while introducing less clutter. Concepts that were at least rudimentarily already established in the series' lore.

That might possibly for the better, lol, as Chi seems to become slowly a whole clusterdiddly of its own without even considering its connections to the other titles in the main series.

The character sadly is a god-sue lol. He even gains immortality despite defeats and even in defeat and sealed to a chair, a CHAIR, he's more hax than most of the cast. If there was ever a troll incarnate in literature it'd be Aizen.

This is also true. While some cry it makes their sadness pointless which I'm on the fence about I do feel it made a good deal of story pointless. For instance when I look at DDD and see all these returning, now human again, characters getting screen time and plot relevance it makes me wonder what the point of KH2 and nobodies were.
(nothing is truly free or sparse of shipping sadly lol)

I see. Well if you sit on it it'd probably be possible to explain the letter negating the only thing to debunk that theory. =3
I can understand that gripe. It's why I often mention the mythos is over saturated or convoluted since you can take one of several concepts and get the same result. Time travel being one good example. I dont understand why the time travel itself is confusing for most though, it's basically improvised Novikov principle.

lol Then I may just skip it entirely.

I think that's just a matter of taste on aesthetics though, as I'm generally drawn to more bright and conventionally beautiful places as well as artful architecture.
As if Nomura would read anything we write here, lol.

Yea, basically they're trying to deliver a complex puzzle to solve, but what they manage to do is deliver something that is a puzzle because it's a mess. Like if the person who's responsible of handing out the basket with the puzzle pieces constantly trips and loses a chunk of pieces along the way which are later picked up and stored elsewhere.

It's ironic since that was the initial premise Days was created to show us. As for Roxas' emoness (and sometimes cringeworthy inactivity), I blame these being a side effect of the Xion-show which absorbed nearly the whole plot. The whole thing was so much set up to be a constant pity-party for Xion and shoving it down people's throats oh how bad she has it that Roxas got drawn into it as well and got a little similar, but less grandeur-filled dose of it on the sidelines as if the creators somehow two-thirds through the game realized that Roxas was there too and supposed to be the center-character.
Would you believe me when I say that, out of all the tormented ones over TAV, Naminé, Roxas and Xion, the latter is actually the one I feel and care the least about just because how over the top and all over the place it was for 9/10 of the game?
I certainly don't consider myself a Xion-hater, but her fate, thanks to overdose, didn't really tug my heartstrings at all and if it wasn't for Shimomura's great music I guess her "death"-scene would not be that full of impact as so many claim out on the net.
Yea, I did say that once and I still stand by it. Days overdid it and BBS didn't do enough in that regard, although I personally still feel more for each individual third of the BBS-trio than I did for Xion in the end. Heck, Naminé touched me more on the inside than Xion's overdone throat-shoving drama-show.
As in several issues, KH as a series seems to have a problem finding the right balance in this field as well.

So, if I understand correctly, and remaining with the same example, you'd have less problems with Sora and Ventus being that similar in personality and traits if they had not this exceptional close heart-bond that connects them on a meta-layer?

Ya never know. He's already through out mysteries in favor of a more simple "Xehanort did it all" so maybe he's stalking us in hopes of figuring out how to bring everything together~ x'D (or maybe reading such forums to see how many of his "twists" get figured out early)

That truly was Xions source of hate. She's not bad on her own but how she was used was horrible. It was her story but I was playing Roxas who somehow always stayed mad or angst when he didn't even understand most of what was happening around him.
I'd believe it as I have little caring for any of the tormented due how they was used respectfully. Of all them characters the only ones I ended up liking was Aqua for reasons other than torment. (Namine I find a good character but I'm not a huge fan)

To an extent. I'd have less issue with Sora and Ven's close personalities if there wasn't also two more that look just like them yet act like each other (Roxas, Vanitas). I also wouldn't mind it more if Ven at least had a different hair color to set him apart from Roxas.
Basically I dont mind them being similar or even the heart connection but I do mind that it's 4 versions of basically the same person rather than 2 similar personalities with a unique bond. (did I word that right to make sense? >__<)

Ah yes, I think I remember that one, it also played out slightly different than the later used scene, as in the Olympus-scene Ven did not fall to his knees clutching his head in pain but simply stood there looking worriedly at MX while Xehanort held up his hand and formed a "ball of Darkness" like in the secret ending of KH2 FM and showed it towards Ven while in the later scene he only made his usual "pedo-hand-wiggles" without any fancy energy balls, but later summoning that floating "X".
From the way the old trailers were build up though I wonder how a "damned" evil Terra would/could really have played out as even all early trailer scenes clearly show Terra to maintain a steady devotion to Ven, it's a little problematic to portray Terra to be "evil" when he still values his friendships so much.

Heh, I'd say the upper part of my signature speaks for itself on that one, and the fact that I like many characters and have no true hate-characters (although I'm still annoyed by both Pete and Demyx) hasn't really changed despite all flaws.
I can't make a full comparison between the novels and manga yet because so far I've only read the novel of the first KH, but that one has gems like Jiminy Cricket interacting with Aerith as well as Donald, Goofy and Sora together reading the parts of the Ansem Reports and trying to make sense of it.
I had not yet time to start the CoM-novel, but if you're interested in a professional assessment of the worth of the novels I think Goldpanner is the right address as she has read nearly every novel in the japanese original.

Not quite sure. The trailers gave me the impression of a Terra that's going down the wrong path but still cared about his friends. While similar to Riku, Terra seemed less likely to fall far enough to try and kill them as Riku did Sora. That's just subjective view based on memory of the time however.
But the fact that Terra ended up Xehanort, which was figured out long ago even then, at least made that the end to his path would be more damned that Riku's own path of redemption.

Goldpanners threads are still there? I didn't even bother to look. o_o
I like what I hear of little moments like Jimney there. The games need more of those. =D

While I can now see where this is going, I also think I know why there is somewhat an inherent adversity against this whole "darkness in Kairi's heart"-thingy.

The way you propose these things can be read as wanting to deny Kairi her Princess of Heart-status which has already caused much ruckuss around this forum some months earlier (I don't know if you were around to witness the "Larxene012"-incident), but that one left quite an impact behind and many people quite sour about anything challenging Kairi's status as a Princess of Heart.

I fear my own impact caused a slight insult when I didn't intend too, especially to a Larxene level. The basic point of my posts were that I dont see anything to lean towards it happening. Possible yes but nothing to support the idea.
As for her actually losing the status later I dont really care in all bluntness. She's have so little screen time and use and it's obvious we'll likely not get much elaboration on the PoH status or powers anyway. So if she actually did lose that status I wouldn't care. (especially if it meant her getting proper use as a wielder afterwards)

I think I best just drop arguing the idea since it's coming across wrong. Dx

 

[Wildbullet]

I don't know why people put up such a fuss over who the PoH are and what they can do. It's already established since KH1 who they are. Snow White, Aurora, Cinderella, Belle, Alice, Jasmine, and Kairi. The rest of the pure lights are induced artificially, like Ven (although I'm not sure if he's still pure light since the whole Vanitas thing, someone please clarify that in another thread or give me a link), and possibly that one other person I have in mind.

The existence of Kairi's Nobody is unique in of itself. She doesn't have a template for a body and soul, Roxas took that from her, and a Princess of Heart is incorruptible by Darkness, hence under no possible circumstance can a Nobody be made, yet there she is. Think of it like this, Naminé is what is to Kairi as what Lumina is to Claire/Lightning. It isn't so hard to believe, rather I think it's complimentary. Remember, Nobodies may have powers over Darkness (and Light, Roxas and Xemnas are able to do this), but they belong to neither. Fairy Godmother already states that you can't defeat Darkness with Light, because it creates more shadows. No doubt other omniscient beings like Yen Sid, Merlin, or even Joshua know about it. But Naminé isn't really affiliated to Darkness, but both Kairi's heart, from whom she originated, and Sora, to whom she can derive her memory-alteration capabilities from, both are known to be aligned to Light, just that she herself is a "shadow." Out of all Nobodies, she truly is the only one left unanswered, her existence in itself a contradiction, yet Kairi is incomplete without her.

But I think the topic has been derailed long enough. What has to come to mind first is not about the Master of Masters, but his apprentices and his creation, Chirithy. If you can decode every single one of them, from the Foretellers, to the mysterious Sixth Apprentice, to his creation Chirithy, only then we can start to see the links and ask proper questions to which MoM has the answer to. Which reminds me, after the end of the Xehanort Saga, what will happen to Chi/Unchained Chi?

 

[Face My Fears]

Can someone explain to me what a Chirithy is? I read that every keyblade master gets one or something?

 

[gelandporn]

I understand your point perfectly and I apologize if the phrasing offended you but it truly is just an argument based on it happening just cause.
This doesn't mean it's an ass pull but that it's a theory with nothing to tip the scale in te direction or happening or not happening. It's all just big blurry what if territory which is why I neither side with you nor Sephiroth0812. My initial post was even pointing out there was nothing pointing towards either of your stances being right or wrong.

It is nothing but a possible what if or just cause and I've tried to agree to disagree respectfully to that twice and will so again after this. It's obvious your gonna continue to defend the point when I see nothing of your point to let believe this theory.


I can and I am calling this theory on just cause because it frankly is. I did read your post but it's obvious mine is being taken the wrong way. While I don't care how my posts are read I don't want you to think I'm not understanding your theory. =P (especially if you think it's on purpose)

Do I really have to flesh out the semantics here?
"Just cause" and an asspull are the same thing, more or less.

The latter is stated much more bluntly/negatively so despite your claim, this has absolutely nothing to do with my offense at how you word your argument. "Just cause" is not offensive. Call a spade a spade, if something is bullshit, then it is bullshit, I don't take offense to that.

Except it's not a spade here lol.

"Just because" denotes an argument made with no basis, something that is pulled entirely from the imagination without anything that can be conceived as evidence. Or, you know, an asspull. I don't know how to state any more clearly that the argument from analogy means this argument is not made "just cause", even if you personally find the analogy to be lacking or whatever.

It's a pretty direct analogy considering it's literally dealing with the same overall concept--a Nobody fusing with their Somebody. It would be like comparing one house being robbed to another house being robbed. There may be some distinguishing facts but that doesn't invalidate the comparison as evidence for the argument. Again, how much you happen to find it plausible is not the issue.

So I don't know out of what definition of "just cause" you're operating, but it sure as hell isn't the common understanding of the term.

The point is your analyzing something that isn't easily compared. There is nothing showing Kairi and Namine had the same shared moments like Roxas and Sora did.

The two versions of unique is also different enough to call any comparison of the duos into question.
Roxas, while special, is made up of Soras body as nobodies are. Namine is literally made of nothing with nothing of Kairi. Sora and Roxas coexisted which affected Roxas profoundly but didn't really affect Sora till KH2. Namine was never shown to be affected by Kairi.
You see?

The shining fact here is there is no norm, not is there enough to take this analysis as more than just cause.

These are factual distinctions so I'm glad you're actually raising them as opposed to just making vapid accusations. I can actually make a substantive response!

All of those differences are irrelevant. Regardless of Namine being made of "nothing" vs Roxas being made of "something," they both became a part of their Somebody. Hence it can be reasonably inferred that anything they were comprised of is now a part of their Somebody. I've already established that Namine has darkness, so you do the math.

Actually, here! I'll give your response for you!

Namine's darkness could just as well have been cleansed by Kairi's light, given her pure-hearted nature.
Which is a totally valid idea. Both are. There are reasons to believe both are true (more than "just cause," shockingly).
And nowwwww we would be at the point where any additional arguing would be baseless, because any sort of one-upmanship would probably be based on the imagination/bordering on fanfic territory. You know, if that's what you were arguing. What you take more stock in as the deciding factor--the absoluteness of Kairi's purety as a means of vanquishing Namine's darkness vs. the precedential nature of Namine's fusing with Kairi (ie no PoH to our knowledge has ever fused with a being comprised of darkness before), can only be weighed at individual discretion. There is some merit in then analogizing with Ven's fusion with Vanitas, as I did earlier, but that could possibly warrant its own separate discussion.

That takes care of Namine's darkness, as for her emotions, I again don't see how what you pointed out would impede Kairi's ability to feel them. We know of the connections hearts can forge in this series, and this is particularly true between individuals that are a part of the same person, as it is with Roxas and Sora. Namine almost certainly gained a heart, so I don't see why the same connection (and abilities) would not be made between Kairi and Namine. The only way I can even see you reasonably combating this is by suggesting Namine never had a heart which... is not territory you want to go down.

Saying things like "Oh, but Namine was made from nothing, Roxas was made from a body/soul!" do nothing for your case. Think of how it connects to the actual claim. Does the fact that Namine was made from nothing alter any of those core facts in a relevant way---her heart, her connection to Kairi that she would gain upon fusing with her?

I'm asking that rhetorically but I also would leave it up for you to give an answer just so we can actually have a real debate and not just one over semantics.

That my friend is a two way street. Not only is Kairi hardly seen but neither is Namine. Beween KH1 (kairi), CoM (Namine) and KH2 they got more or less the same amount of screen time. =P

......... What is your point? I don't even understand how this logically is a rebuttal to what I said, so I can't even comment on it. And I feel like I have to keep explaining myself because I can only guess you don't understand why I said what I said.

You said we have not "seen or had written words" that would suggest Kairi can feel Namine's feelings.
Which is flimsy because there has been virtually no time to even have the point addressed. The only point in time we're going to know if she would be able to experience Namine's feelings is after KH2, since they fused at the end.

And Kairi has been in all of... several seconds of scenes taking place after KH2? None of which were even really focusing on her. In other words, we haven't even been given the breathing room to understand her post-KH2 state of mind yet. So your point about not having "seen or had written words" about it is... not one that should even be made. If it's something that would be established, it would have to be in a future game.

I do agree that if we had spent plenty (or even just a reasonable amount) of time with Kairi after she fused with Namine, and there was no evidence of such an idea, then that would absolutely diminish its likelihood. But... that's not the case so.... yeah???

The way you propose these things can be read as wanting to deny Kairi her Princess of Heart-status which has already caused much ruckuss around this forum some months earlier (I don't know if you were around to witness the "Larxene012"-incident), but that one left quite an impact behind and many people quite sour about anything challenging Kairi's status as a Princess of Heart.

I was not--I'm busier nowadays so I don't frequent the forums as much. Thanks for the context!

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

Can someone explain to me what a Chirithy is? I read that every keyblade master gets one or something?

Chirithy is a Dream Eater companion to the Keyblade Weilders of X.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

That comparison hurts. I apologize though. I'm just bluntly spoken which doesn't always work well online like me accidentally insulting gelandporn there. x(
Indeed very possible which I thought I conveyed....


That's also incredibly likely. (i dont mind flashy there there is definitely more flash and gimmick than I find necessary myself lol)
You'd think he'd give a layout of what he wants to a scenario writer in that regard. Keeping everything to himself hurts it a bit. Give the writers something so they can foreshadow and other things. Days, while I hated it, did a decent script job due to a bit of localization freedom. Even had legitimately funny moments. (like the stick or Lexeaus bitchslapping Roxas out of nowhere)

That is something I could see easily being true. Trying to reduce the maze of mysteries he's made. Though how he done it felt lacking. If he had went with the idea of Xehanort reforming and simply learning from the others mistakes it'd have been a perfect resolution to that mess.
Fans demanding darker tones usually dont look past the Disney fluff to see the dark undertones. Like Rurans pointed out several times, if you sit and think about it, there's lots of dark things happening.
Agreed. To me the apprentice was there only to explain how Ansem & Xemnas were there. Like how old Xehanort was meant to explain why the apprentice was there. Of course the old ones role got expanded in DDD however.

They actually said Chi wasn't canon at one point? Thats a bit disappointing then. Makes Chi feel a little like forced importance now....
One reason to hope this is a one time revival. Play the revival card to much and you end up with DBZ or Sailor Moon but in a less enjoyable fashion.

It was actually the whole back and forth that got me this impression, not just a single statement. Which is why I also pointed out that after these events in the past more than one forum member might be oversensitive about this topic so that another topic that even just seems to go into the same direction can cause an uproar.

Flashy stuff is only good if everything else is also at least decent. Otherwise the flashy stuff only serves to mask how weak the other elements of the work and the whole setting are. KH II is one of the best examples of that.
He may do that, but I get the vibe that this layout is either too basic or that he doesn't look the script over as throroughly as he should do since otherwise some discrepancies are just not explainable.
The KH series in general has many single "gem"-scenes scattered around it, be they funny, epic or emotional, it's connecting these scenes in a meaningful way to get a good story flow running where it often falls flat on its face.

Yep, and possibly getting rid of mysteries he himself no longer cares about or deems unneccessary to further delve into. When going by that mindset, he might have chosen the very first idea that came to mind to "resolve" it and "It was all orchestrated by old Xehanort" was the first one that came to mind. Being a Star Wars fan and taking a page out of Palpatine's book might also have been a factor, as Palpatine had a grand plan he followed for more than 30 years through deception, manipulation and careful improvisation in SW too. The difference is however that Palpatine always remained at the forefront of his manipulations (no offshoots like Ansem or Xemnas taking care of "subplans") and it was one single plan with different phases and different pawns used.

I admit these demands are really quite irritating to me just like the often brought up cries for a non-happy ending when the entire series so far had nothing but either bittersweet or outright downer-endings often involving fates worse than death. Heck, even Nomura himself acknowledged the series has had no true happy ending so far.
Indeed, that's why I often describe the Apprentice (if I acknowledge him as an own entity at all) as nothing but a stepping stone, certainly not the "main" villain of the entire saga.
To be fair though the indication that the "old" Xehanort would be the main antagonist of the finale was first brought up in the Re: Coded secret ending when Yen Sid explicitly spoke about Master Xehanort returning. DDD did however expand his role beyond just "returning" for sure...

It was in the first two to three months after x[chi] was first unveiled/released if I recall correctly.
The initial premise was that it would be just a fun free-to-play little browser game without any lasting impact on the main storyline. I think Spockanort, Sign or Chaser even worded it like that in the initial articles about it.
After the topic with the Foreteller's script then came up it started until Nomura somehow along the way decided to connect it wholely to the main overaching plot and weave a close connection to KH III itself.
This is the thing though, if one pays more attention to your cast of characters and does not kill them off/sacrifice them into a fate worse than deah at every possible opportunity for drama points, there would be no need for any revival cards at all. It shows also a lack of planning when you're writing off a character but then realize that oops, there is still much I could (and want to) do with them.

I wouldn't say mindless but I definitely view them as drones now.
We all have one of those stingy subjects lol. For the most part I could see were they was coming from on Terra-influence but largely thought the villains as their own until DDD.


The character sadly is a god-sue lol. He even gains immortality despite defeats and even in defeat and sealed to a chair, a CHAIR, he's more hax than most of the cast. If there was ever a troll incarnate in literature it'd be Aizen.

This is also true. While some cry it makes their sadness pointless which I'm on the fence about I do feel it made a good deal of story pointless. For instance when I look at DDD and see all these returning, now human again, characters getting screen time and plot relevance it makes me wonder what the point of KH2 and nobodies were.
(nothing is truly free or sparse of shipping sadly lol)

I see. Well if you sit on it it'd probably be possible to explain the letter negating the only thing to debunk that theory. =3
I can understand that gripe. It's why I often mention the mythos is over saturated or convoluted since you can take one of several concepts and get the same result. Time travel being one good example. I dont understand why the time travel itself is confusing for most though, it's basically improvised Novikov principle.

lol Then I may just skip it entirely.

To close that part of the debate since its obvious we're standing on different viewpoints here I will say that I reserve my final judgement on KH III and how the whole saga is wrapped up.
I have maybe three or four of such stingy subjects, and since I know I can get somewhat heated with these I sometimes try to stay out of discussions regarding those, although every so often it doesn't work. <___<
In the particular case of the Terra-influence though I can also easily acknowledge were they were coming from, what peeved me is/was that many treated it as something factual or highly probable when in actuality it is/was highly ambigious at best.

And here I was thinking Madara Uchiha (and the whole damn Uchiha-clan) from Naruto were the epitome of bad, overpowered creator's pet-examples. 0_o

Saying their sadness is pointless is as idiotic as saying their sacrifices are pointless because they aren't permanent. This whole sadness/suffering of all those characters already has huge impact on the plot as it is, specifically also for the protagonist Sora and it is also mentioned in the most recent x[chi]-story update when the Vulpeus-Foreteller, Ava, warns the Player about having sadness in his/her heart which will eventually give way to Darkness if allowed to linger for too long (after having just beat up the Player in a sparring match with Keyblades no less).
What it does make pointless is any sense of achievement the good characters (and thus the audience) had before as then there could a point be made about "Yea, Xehanort is still around but we managed to constantly throw a wrench into his plans and prevent his victory."
DDD makes it look like as if anything that was done was at best only a minor annoyance for Xehanort in the big picture rather than a true setback which he had to work around.
(I'm not even that "anti"-shipping at all, I just can't stand it if it's treated like the most important topic around and gets brought up at every possible opportunity.)

It's certainly not an impossible task to overcome and I'm convinced by now that the advantages of having Coded and DDD take place concurrently in the timeline outweigh the negatives. It would even add a whole new level of drama when Mickey and co. learn about the dangers for Sora's heart from Data-Naminé parallel to when Xehanort is already working to exploit these dangers for himself in his newest scheme.
It makes you also wonder though in-universe, if there are several ways to do the same thing, why do heroes and villains alike almost always pick the most complicated way to follow? *ggg*
Time-travel in general has quite a negative reputation in entertainment media I noticed and many people also simply do not know about the different principles that have been thought up for it.

I practically follow it a little from the sidelines, although skipping it entirely might require you to also skip the Back Cover-part of 2.8, lol.

Ya never know. He's already through out mysteries in favor of a more simple "Xehanort did it all" so maybe he's stalking us in hopes of figuring out how to bring everything together~ x'D (or maybe reading such forums to see how many of his "twists" get figured out early)

That truly was Xions source of hate. She's not bad on her own but how she was used was horrible. It was her story but I was playing Roxas who somehow always stayed mad or angst when he didn't even understand most of what was happening around him.
I'd believe it as I have little caring for any of the tormented due how they was used respectfully. Of all them characters the only ones I ended up liking was Aqua for reasons other than torment. (Namine I find a good character but I'm not a huge fan)

To an extent. I'd have less issue with Sora and Ven's close personalities if there wasn't also two more that look just like them yet act like each other (Roxas, Vanitas). I also wouldn't mind it more if Ven at least had a different hair color to set him apart from Roxas.
Basically I dont mind them being similar or even the heart connection but I do mind that it's 4 versions of basically the same person rather than 2 similar personalities with a unique bond. (did I word that right to make sense? >__<)


Not quite sure. The trailers gave me the impression of a Terra that's going down the wrong path but still cared about his friends. While similar to Riku, Terra seemed less likely to fall far enough to try and kill them as Riku did Sora. That's just subjective view based on memory of the time however.
But the fact that Terra ended up Xehanort, which was figured out long ago even then, at least made that the end to his path would be more damned that Riku's own path of redemption.

Goldpanners threads are still there? I didn't even bother to look. o_o
I like what I hear of little moments like Jimney there. The games need more of those. =D

Eugh, that would be really taking things a little too far. Stalking fan theories and then doing something completely differently just to keep that "surprising"-tick afloat...<__<
Everything would be easier to bring together if Nomura would just stick to "normal" complex storytelling and equip a given situation/scenario with one or two twists instead of five, lol.

And it is my main and major gripe with her as well. I do not have anything against her as a character herself (she's actually quite cute), but how her role was played out was barf-inducing. Normally I have a thing for sweet characters who suffer and feel with them, but in Xion's case it was so overdone that I got an overflow that eventually turned into indifference. With the other tormented ones it at least wasn't forced to the forefront so much which makes it easier for me to look past other flaws in their use.

So it's not the bond itself that's the problem but that this bond spawned two more "twins" who, for extra "derp", look nearly exactly like the one original twin they don't come from (as Roxas comes from Sora, but looks like Ven while Vanitas comes from Ven but looks like Sora).
As for Ven getting a more distinct trait to separate him from Roxas I just thought again about the glaring lack of diversity in eye-colors among the original cast, as most have either blue eyes or Xehanort-gold. Isa and Lea/Axel seem to be the only ones with green ones. Wind is an element that is often associated with the color green or white, so why not give Ven green or gray eyes in a really outstanding hue?
I think it was worded understandable enough, lol.

It would also make for something of a bitter irony if Terra did not fall "as far" as Riku and yet got the shorter stick of it in the end nonetheless. I'm completely honest when I say that until I played/saw Reverse/Rebirth in CoM I outright despised Riku and felt Sora let him off too easy when looking solely at KH 1 as he did many of his worst things before Ansem actually possessed him.

Yep they are, although I don't think they're really updated so frequently anymore.
As far as I recall the novels are full of those. Goldpanner once translated a chapter from the DDD novel of Sora's side that shows while he acts pretty carefree and childish, Sora's thoughts are sometimes quite perceptive.

I fear my own impact caused a slight insult when I didn't intend too, especially to a Larxene level. The basic point of my posts were that I dont see anything to lean towards it happening. Possible yes but nothing to support the idea.
As for her actually losing the status later I dont really care in all bluntness. She's have so little screen time and use and it's obvious we'll likely not get much elaboration on the PoH status or powers anyway. So if she actually did lose that status I wouldn't care. (especially if it meant her getting proper use as a wielder afterwards)

I think I best just drop arguing the idea since it's coming across wrong. Dx

I'm actually on that bandwagon too mostly. Not impossible, but still rather unlikely.
Kairi losing the status would open more than just one other can of worms though, the most obvious (and possibly most annoying) one being that there will be immediately hot debates and flame wars among the fandom about which seven Princesses "deserve more" to be the seven pure ones and which ones should be tossed out/cast aside in favor of someone else's favorites.

Yea, it might possibly for the best...

The rest of the pure lights are induced artificially, like Ven (although I'm not sure if he's still pure light since the whole Vanitas thing, someone please clarify that in another thread or give me a link), and possibly that one other person I have in mind.

In regards to Ven I think that cannot be clarified yet because it was never outright confirmed what exactly happened after he destroyed the proto-X-blade and Vanitas. Some people argue that Vanitas fused back into Ven's heart, yet undoing their fusion was one of the main motivations for Ven to even fight the final battle in the first place, while again others argue that Vanitas vanishing into pixie dust and restoring Ven's station symbolizes the fusion being undone and him losing any and all influence on Ventus he ever might have had.
The destruction of the X-blade severely damaged Ven's heart and he was on the verge of losing it, yet his body did not disappear (like Kairi's) so people use that as a hint that Ven's heart remains pure light even if substantially damaged. As for Vanitas, what exactly his status is right now and where the remnants of his heart of Darkness are is up to debate as well.
We do not have a definite answer for both after the end of BBS.

I was not--I'm busier nowadays so I don't frequent the forums as much. Thanks for the context!

No issue. ^__^

 

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Do I really have to flesh out the semantics here?
"Just cause" and an asspull are the same thing, more or less.

The latter is stated much more bluntly/negatively so despite your claim, this has absolutely nothing to do with my offense at how you word your argument. "Just cause" is not offensive. Call a spade a spade, if something is bullshit, then it is bullshit, I don't take offense to that.

Except it's not a spade here lol.

"Just because" denotes an argument made with no basis, something that is pulled entirely from the imagination without anything that can be conceived as evidence. Or, you know, an asspull. I don't know how to state any more clearly that the argument from analogy means this argument is not made "just cause", even if you personally find the analogy to be lacking or whatever.

It's a pretty direct analogy considering it's literally dealing with the same overall concept--a Nobody fusing with their Somebody. It would be like comparing one house being robbed to another house being robbed. There may be some distinguishing facts but that doesn't invalidate the comparison as evidence for the argument. Again, how much you happen to find it plausible is not the issue.

So I don't know out of what definition of "just cause" you're operating, but it sure as hell isn't the common understanding of the term.

No you dont but apparently your going to anyway. The only actual fact here is your taking offense to something I didn't mean to be. Even if you say there is none here you are arguing semantics and fleshing them out trying to make it so.
I dont consider it an asspull but I do see this are a case of just case or what if and I'll say so no how many times you bring it up man.

How much I find it plausible IS the issue. Trying to make it a nonissue to validate your offense isn't going to take that away. We have to cases of nobodies merging but neither was normal nor do we see the same level of connection between the focus of your argument. To me this dictates a hypothetical happening just cause based on the assumption they had this same level of interaction or connectivity.

There's no way you can word this or try to "flesh it out" without us dancing in circles here. You recognize the semantics so save us both some time and just let it go already. I too dont see how to state this more clearly that it is a theory of "just cause". If that offends you I am sorry but your blowing a small post of mine out of proportion to the extent you are now arguing semantics that wont go anywhere.

Let it go already and be done with it. "lol" =p

These are factual distinctions so I'm glad you're actually raising them as opposed to just making vapid accusations. I can actually make a substantive response!

All of those differences are irrelevant. Regardless of Namine being made of "nothing" vs Roxas being made of "something," they both became a part of their Somebody. Hence it can be reasonably inferred that anything they were comprised of is now a part of their Somebody. I've already established that Namine has darkness, so you do the math.

Actually, here! I'll give your response for you!

Namine's darkness could just as well have been cleansed by Kairi's light, given her pure-hearted nature.
Which is a totally valid idea. Both are. There are reasons to believe both are true (more than "just cause," shockingly).
And nowwwww we would be at the point where any additional arguing would be baseless, because any sort of one-upmanship would probably be based on the imagination/bordering on fanfic territory. You know, if that's what you were arguing. What you take more stock in as the deciding factor--the absoluteness of Kairi's purety as a means of vanquishing Namine's darkness vs. the precedential nature of Namine's fusing with Kairi (ie no PoH to our knowledge has ever fused with a being comprised of darkness before), can only be weighed at individual discretion. There is some merit in then analogizing with Ven's fusion with Vanitas, as I did earlier, but that could possibly warrant its own separate discussion.

That takes care of Namine's darkness, as for her emotions, I again don't see how what you pointed out would impede Kairi's ability to feel them. We know of the connections hearts can forge in this series, and this is particularly true between individuals that are a part of the same person, as it is with Roxas and Sora. Namine almost certainly gained a heart, so I don't see why the same connection (and abilities) would not be made between Kairi and Namine. The only way I can even see you reasonably combating this is by suggesting Namine never had a heart which... is not territory you want to go down.

Saying things like "Oh, but Namine was made from nothing, Roxas was made from a body/soul!" do nothing for your case. Think of how it connects to the actual claim. Does the fact that Namine was made from nothing alter any of those core facts in a relevant way---her heart, her connection to Kairi that she would gain upon fusing with her?

I'm asking that rhetorically but I also would leave it up for you to give an answer just so we can actually have a real debate and not just one over semantics.

Those differences are relevant. Every difference is relevant. The "valid idea" is nothing more than a "possible idea". I need something to actually make me lean towards that idea to see it more than just what if. A "what if" happening just because it's possible is a theory of "just cause" and I'll state that no matter how many times you feel the need to argue it.

The idea was already on the border of fancition man. That's why I see nothing to actually make your theory more than what I've stated several times. Differences are relevant because Namine is unique to any case known including Roxas.
It needs something more solid than "well if it happened with Roxas then why not!?" as a basis.
I wasn't doing oneuping on anything dude, it's clear already you took all my responses the wrong way.
All your theory does is warrant thought and possibility, nothing concrete. Especially if your gonna compare it to Ventus and Vanitas which is not only an entirely other can of worms but also a case of we dont even know what happened for sure when Ven defeated him. Did Vanitas leave? Was his darkness purified? Was it assimilated back into Ven? We just dont know and we dont know the same for Namine.
All my posts have been pointing out that we dont know. Not that it's impossible but that we have nothing more than hypothetical to take it as more than possible.

I didn't point out anything to impede it dude, seriously take off the offended glasses. I pointed out that we just dont know because we DONT SEE that same connection between Namine and Kairi. How can you seriously look at all the nobody examples and still argue this?
People that went the more "traditional" destruction then reformed route acted the same as they were when human, they inherited all those memories. Then you have Roxas who was affected by Sora all his life but Sora himself didn't even feel a thing until he merged with him in KH2. And even then Sora only felt things like sadness at times, the memories never went to him like the others. Then you have Namine. She knows who her other is, considers herself a shadow but beyond that we dont know anything of that connection.
There is to much divergence to take your theory more seriously than just case of possible. If Sora can go all that time with minimum to barely any notice then how do we know Kairi and Namnie didn't do the same? How do we know Namines connection to Kairi was strong at all due to Namine literally taking nothing?
There is just to much unknown here man. That's why I call it a possible but nothing more to back it.

Your the one that needs to think about the claims. I just point out all that unknown makes nothing more concrete to take the theory more seriously. Your the one that's dragged this down to the point of arguing semantics or oneupmanship or even claims. All my initial claims were, were that it's possible but I dont see it as more than that. You've taken it out of context and now here we are.

......... What is your point? I don't even understand how this logically is a rebuttal to what I said, so I can't even comment on it. And I feel like I have to keep explaining myself because I can only guess you don't understand why I said what I said.

You said we have not "seen or had written words" that would suggest Kairi can feel Namine's feelings.
Which is flimsy because there has been virtually no time to even have the point addressed. The only point in time we're going to know if she would be able to experience Namine's feelings is after KH2, since they fused at the end.

And Kairi has been in all of... several seconds of scenes taking place after KH2? None of which were even really focusing on her. In other words, we haven't even been given the breathing room to understand her post-KH2 state of mind yet. So your point about not having "seen or had written words" about it is... not one that should even be made. If it's something that would be established, it would have to be in a future game.

I do agree that if we had spent plenty (or even just a reasonable amount) of time with Kairi after she fused with Namine, and there was no evidence of such an idea, then that would absolutely diminish its likelihood. But... that's not the case so.... yeah???

You dont understand because your not making efforts too. You constantly assume I, or any nay-sayer apparently, can't understand your theory when I've argued it with you for a page or two now and then keep replying with explanations while I continuously try to explain why I see it as only what if. I can't tell if someone taking your theory as what if baffles you or if your just insulted but I'm done. It's obvious nothing is getting through so after this I wont be indulging you anymore. =/

You dont even comprehend that the little screen time makes your own argument flimsy which is what I was pointing out. Little screen time means there's little to show for any side of the argument that you think others are on against yours.
If it's established in a future game then good, fine, but until it is all you got is a flimsy case based on assumption yourself following the idea Namine and Kairi behaved similar to Roxas-Sora. This is indeed possible but there is nothing backing it besides the notion and undeniable fact that "yes it is possible".

All my initial post ever was, was the simple "yes it's possible but I need more to see it as more than that". If that honestly baffles you then I do not know what to tell you other than to let it go and argue it with someone else that cares enough to get into your semantics and explanations that apparently make a easy to understand theory easier to understand.
You've got hung up on the two small words of 'just cause' and now your trying to act like I can't even understand your argument. (not sure if your just trying to make me look stupid because your offended or honestly think it's that hard to comprehend) Your obviously not wanting to debate or content it's possibility if your thinking that way and so I see no more reason to continue you this.

It was actually the whole back and forth that got me this impression, not just a single statement. Which is why I also pointed out that after these events in the past more than one forum member might be oversensitive about this topic so that another topic that even just seems to go into the same direction can cause an uproar.

You did mean the part on grass's theory right? After replying to that I can see why you'd get the impression. I probably got annoyed in my above response again but to avoid it becoming like a larxene thing I'll just drop it after this. It's obvious it's going nowhere and unlike her I dont think any of us wanna argue something that's obviously going nowhere.

Flashy stuff is only good if everything else is also at least decent. Otherwise the flashy stuff only serves to mask how weak the other elements of the work and the whole setting are. KH II is one of the best examples of that.
He may do that, but I get the vibe that this layout is either too basic or that he doesn't look the script over as throroughly as he should do since otherwise some discrepancies are just not explainable.
The KH series in general has many single "gem"-scenes scattered around it, be they funny, epic or emotional, it's connecting these scenes in a meaningful way to get a good story flow running where it often falls flat on its face.

Yep, and possibly getting rid of mysteries he himself no longer cares about or deems unneccessary to further delve into. When going by that mindset, he might have chosen the very first idea that came to mind to "resolve" it and "It was all orchestrated by old Xehanort" was the first one that came to mind. Being a Star Wars fan and taking a page out of Palpatine's book might also have been a factor, as Palpatine had a grand plan he followed for more than 30 years through deception, manipulation and careful improvisation in SW too. The difference is however that Palpatine always remained at the forefront of his manipulations (no offshoots like Ansem or Xemnas taking care of "subplans") and it was one single plan with different phases and different pawns used.

If you think of it in that light Nomura bringing back the old Xehanort may have been another means of eliminating unnecessary. If you bring the old one back it makes it easier to save Terra. It also resolves the Apprentice-Ansem-Xemnas mess because everyone is restored to their original but separate form.

I admit these demands are really quite irritating to me just like the often brought up cries for a non-happy ending when the entire series so far had nothing but either bittersweet or outright downer-endings often involving fates worse than death. Heck, even Nomura himself acknowledged the series has had no true happy ending so far.
Indeed, that's why I often describe the Apprentice (if I acknowledge him as an own entity at all) as nothing but a stepping stone, certainly not the "main" villain of the entire saga.
To be fair though the indication that the "old" Xehanort would be the main antagonist of the finale was first brought up in the Re: Coded secret ending when Yen Sid explicitly spoke about Master Xehanort returning. DDD did however expand his role beyond just "returning" for sure...

It was in the first two to three months after x[chi] was first unveiled/released if I recall correctly.
The initial premise was that it would be just a fun free-to-play little browser game without any lasting impact on the main storyline. I think Spockanort, Sign or Chaser even worded it like that in the initial articles about it.
After the topic with the Foreteller's script then came up it started until Nomura somehow along the way decided to connect it wholely to the main overaching plot and weave a close connection to KH III itself.
This is the thing though, if one pays more attention to your cast of characters and does not kill them off/sacrifice them into a fate worse than deah at every possible opportunity for drama points, there would be no need for any revival cards at all. It shows also a lack of planning when you're writing off a character but then realize that oops, there is still much I could (and want to) do with them.

That kinda annoys me then. Was it really that hard for him to resist in regards to not having at least one game connected to the story?
That is true too. I blame the lack of foresight in writing as 50/50 myself. Half is his fault but at the same time he did have games unintended happen. (like nintendo asking for days)

To close that part of the debate since its obvious we're standing on different viewpoints here I will say that I reserve my final judgement on KH III and how the whole saga is wrapped up.
I have maybe three or four of such stingy subjects, and since I know I can get somewhat heated with these I sometimes try to stay out of discussions regarding those, although every so often it doesn't work. <___<
In the particular case of the Terra-influence though I can also easily acknowledge were they were coming from, what peeved me is/was that many treated it as something factual or highly probable when in actuality it is/was highly ambigious at best.

And here I was thinking Madara Uchiha (and the whole damn Uchiha-clan) from Naruto were the epitome of bad, overpowered creator's pet-examples. 0_o

Saying their sadness is pointless is as idiotic as saying their sacrifices are pointless because they aren't permanent. This whole sadness/suffering of all those characters already has huge impact on the plot as it is, specifically also for the protagonist Sora and it is also mentioned in the most recent x[chi]-story update when the Vulpeus-Foreteller, Ava, warns the Player about having sadness in his/her heart which will eventually give way to Darkness if allowed to linger for too long (after having just beat up the Player in a sparring match with Keyblades no less).
What it does make pointless is any sense of achievement the good characters (and thus the audience) had before as then there could a point be made about "Yea, Xehanort is still around but we managed to constantly throw a wrench into his plans and prevent his victory."
DDD makes it look like as if anything that was done was at best only a minor annoyance for Xehanort in the big picture rather than a true setback which he had to work around.
(I'm not even that "anti"-shipping at all, I just can't stand it if it's treated like the most important topic around and gets brought up at every possible opportunity.)

It's certainly not an impossible task to overcome and I'm convinced by now that the advantages of having Coded and DDD take place concurrently in the timeline outweigh the negatives. It would even add a whole new level of drama when Mickey and co. learn about the dangers for Sora's heart from Data-Naminé parallel to when Xehanort is already working to exploit these dangers for himself in his newest scheme.
It makes you also wonder though in-universe, if there are several ways to do the same thing, why do heroes and villains alike almost always pick the most complicated way to follow? *ggg*
Time-travel in general has quite a negative reputation in entertainment media I noticed and many people also simply do not know about the different principles that have been thought up for it.

I practically follow it a little from the sidelines, although skipping it entirely might require you to also skip the Back Cover-part of 2.8, lol.

Madara has nothing on Aizen sadly. Even Madara gets moments of surprise, Aizen has none because it's all his plan. In over 200 chapters, maybe 300, of story Aizen only had one surprise moment. He only had that due to immortality dulling his usually impossibly sharp mind. (of course he's already over it)

It is idiotic but I can see why they'd feel that way too. It some sense a poorly handled revival cheapens things though it doesn't completely erase things.

lol I know right? If you can do it several ways easier then why do it the hardest way? Even Xehanort's 'hasty' plans weren't easy by comparison to how he could do it.
Time travel, while it's concepts are largely unknown, usually gets a bad reputation because it's used as dues ex machina or complicates what doesn't need to be and so on. Time travel is usually pulled out when a writer is obviously backed into a corner basically. It's a sign the writer of whatever story is thinking "crap how do I fix this?" I myself hate time travel for that very reason, it's too often used as a cheap means of resolution.
I do excuse time travel if the story starts out revolving around this principle though such as shows like Doctor Who or the games Ocarina of Time and Chrono Trigger.

Eugh, that would be really taking things a little too far. Stalking fan theories and then doing something completely differently just to keep that "surprising"-tick afloat...<__<
Everything would be easier to bring together if Nomura would just stick to "normal" complex storytelling and equip a given situation/scenario with one or two twists instead of five, lol.

And it is my main and major gripe with her as well. I do not have anything against her as a character herself (she's actually quite cute), but how her role was played out was barf-inducing. Normally I have a thing for sweet characters who suffer and feel with them, but in Xion's case it was so overdone that I got an overflow that eventually turned into indifference. With the other tormented ones it at least wasn't forced to the forefront so much which makes it easier for me to look past other flaws in their use.

It would but it makes you wonder if he does doesn't it?~ lol
I think normal complex storytelling was his initial advice but he didn't get it. haha

A good example really is the Days manga. It's based on the game so sadly it's still forced in your face but Amano does such a good job with characters that you can actually care about Xion or how shes used in it. (he does what he can to make use of her cuteness too like when she meets pluto)

So it's not the bond itself that's the problem but that this bond spawned two more "twins" who, for extra "derp", look nearly exactly like the one original twin they don't come from (as Roxas comes from Sora, but looks like Ven while Vanitas comes from Ven but looks like Sora).
As for Ven getting a more distinct trait to separate him from Roxas I just thought again about the glaring lack of diversity in eye-colors among the original cast, as most have either blue eyes or Xehanort-gold. Isa and Lea/Axel seem to be the only ones with green ones. Wind is an element that is often associated with the color green or white, so why not give Ven green or gray eyes in a really outstanding hue?
I think it was worded understandable enough, lol.

It would also make for something of a bitter irony if Terra did not fall "as far" as Riku and yet got the shorter stick of it in the end nonetheless. I'm completely honest when I say that until I played/saw Reverse/Rebirth in CoM I outright despised Riku and felt Sora let him off too easy when looking solely at KH 1 as he did many of his worst things before Ansem actually possessed him.

Yep they are, although I don't think they're really updated so frequently anymore.
As far as I recall the novels are full of those. Goldpanner once translated a chapter from the DDD novel of Sora's side that shows while he acts pretty carefree and childish, Sora's thoughts are sometimes quite perceptive.

I'm actually on that bandwagon too mostly. Not impossible, but still rather unlikely.
Kairi losing the status would open more than just one other can of worms though, the most obvious (and possibly most annoying) one being that there will be immediately hot debates and flame wars among the fandom about which seven Princesses "deserve more" to be the seven pure ones and which ones should be tossed out/cast aside in favor of someone else's favorites.

Yea, it might possibly for the best...

Something like that yes. Kinda like I'm having this special bond forced in my face because it's so hard to see. Plus I think it takes away from all fours own individuality this way.
Hell eye color would work perfectly as well. A shade of green like Rikus or anything. Just so long as it was something you could readily see unlike the eyebrows. A distinctive feature needs to be easily seen to be distinct ya know?

You wouldn't be alone man. Many of us hated Riku lol. CoM somehow made many of the fans like him though....Not sure how. haha

I know. I thought I conveyed well I was on that bandwagon as well but apparently two words can throw that out of proportion.
Ugh just picturing those kinda debates appearing would be....so bad. A resurgence of old KHI basically.

I tried but failed...I'll just have to ignore the responses on the PoH thing to avoid it getting worse. T__T

 

[Face My Fears]

Chirithy is a Dream Eater companion to the Keyblade Weilders of X.

Are the wielders in X in Sleeping Worlds? Or can Dream Eaters leave Sleeping Worlds?

 

[Ballad of Caius]

Are the wielders in X in Sleeping Worlds? Or can Dream Eaters leave Sleeping Worlds?

It is a fact that Chirithy is a Dream Eater, but whether or not the events of KINGDOM HEARTS χ[chi]/Unchained take place in the Realm of Sleep is still a mystery (which is more than probable that chi does take place in a Sleeping World).

But the question here is: Can that Sleeping World be re-awakened?

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

It is a fact that Chirithy is a Dream Eater, but whether or not the events of KINGDOM HEARTS χ[chi]/Unchained take place in the Realm of Sleep is still a mystery (which is more than probable that chi does take place in a Sleeping World).

But the question here is: Can that Sleeping World be re-awakened?

In theory, Sora and Riku sealing the Keyholes should have awakened the Sleeping Worlds. So if that happened and Daybreak Town reformed, it only did so at the most recent point of the series.

 

[mallow]

In theory, Sora and Riku sealing the Keyholes should have awakened the Sleeping Worlds. So if that happened and Daybreak Town reformed, it only did so at the most recent point of the series.

Here's hoping we see Daybreak Town in KH3. Full of life ideally, but a ghost town more likely.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

You did mean the part on grass's theory right? After replying to that I can see why you'd get the impression. I probably got annoyed in my above response again but to avoid it becoming like a larxene thing I'll just drop it after this. It's obvious it's going nowhere and unlike her I dont think any of us wanna argue something that's obviously going nowhere.


If you think of it in that light Nomura bringing back the old Xehanort may have been another means of eliminating unnecessary. If you bring the old one back it makes it easier to save Terra. It also resolves the Apprentice-Ansem-Xemnas mess because everyone is restored to their original but separate form.


That kinda annoys me then. Was it really that hard for him to resist in regards to not having at least one game connected to the story?
That is true too. I blame the lack of foresight in writing as 50/50 myself. Half is his fault but at the same time he did have games unintended happen. (like nintendo asking for days)


Madara has nothing on Aizen sadly. Even Madara gets moments of surprise, Aizen has none because it's all his plan. In over 200 chapters, maybe 300, of story Aizen only had one surprise moment. He only had that due to immortality dulling his usually impossibly sharp mind. (of course he's already over it)

It is idiotic but I can see why they'd feel that way too. It some sense a poorly handled revival cheapens things though it doesn't completely erase things.

Yep, and I admit I had a little "ruffled feathers" as well since I noticed so far in this year that anything regarding Kairi has more or less to be treated like a raw egg, mostly because both pro-Kairi and anti-Kairi factions are nearly equally stubborn and "pushy" about their issues with some exceptions among them.
I'm neither into outright Kairi-bashing nor into the apparent sudden need to shove her in everywhere that has emerged across the net. It's also telling that for example the thread about new outfits for original characters deals almost 90% only with Kairi.
It's probably really better to rest this case.

That comes on top of it too. Although it makes one wonder what for plans there might have been initially. Blank Points made it already pretty clear from the beginning that Terra is to be among those who get saved (unlike as for example Eraqus, Isa or Vanitas who get no mention at all), so Nomura must have had something about this in mind at least in a rough concept stage. I'd imagine though that all the new "shiny" stuff Nomura wants to add now messed things up and he decided to simplify some things and cutting corners.
Unlike the initial presentations made in both BBS Blank Points and Re: Coded let to believe, saving the tormented ones does not seem to be the focal point of KH III's story anymore anyways.

Believe it or not initially it annoyed me too. It's no wonder everything becomes progressively harder to understand (and to put together by the staff as well) when nearly everything has to connect to the overaching plot. If a racing game ala "Kingdom Karts" would be made one can almost bet that Nomura would find some convoluted way to connect that to the main story too like i.e. the " Key that leads to the Key to Return Hearts" is actually the prize for an inter-dimensional grand prix of cart racing, sponsored by the "Master of Masters" and everyone and their mother from the KH cast participates in it to get that key for his/her own reasons. Of course, for tormented ones like TAV, Roxas or Naminé to participate, the whole thing has to happen in the Realm of Sleep and by winning each "race track" you can also unlock the sleeping Keyhole of another sleeping world, while time travel allows you to race in worlds that are already awake too, there will be hints and connections to the next KH game and...eeeh, this is getting out of hand...

Good I'm not really into Bleach it seems, lol.

That often also depends on how one defines "poorly handled", I'd say.
Like the fact that Sin, the towering whale-like monster that's the main enemy in FF X, actually pulls a Sephiroth and gets revived for the (supposed) FF X-3 as far as I heard?

lol I know right? If you can do it several ways easier then why do it the hardest way? Even Xehanort's 'hasty' plans weren't easy by comparison to how he could do it.
Time travel, while it's concepts are largely unknown, usually gets a bad reputation because it's used as dues ex machina or complicates what doesn't need to be and so on. Time travel is usually pulled out when a writer is obviously backed into a corner basically. It's a sign the writer of whatever story is thinking "crap how do I fix this?" I myself hate time travel for that very reason, it's too often used as a cheap means of resolution.
I do excuse time travel if the story starts out revolving around this principle though such as shows like Doctor Who or the games Ocarina of Time and Chrono Trigger.


It would but it makes you wonder if he does doesn't it?~ lol
I think normal complex storytelling was his initial advice but he didn't get it. haha

A good example really is the Days manga. It's based on the game so sadly it's still forced in your face but Amano does such a good job with characters that you can actually care about Xion or how shes used in it. (he does what he can to make use of her cuteness too like when she meets pluto)


Something like that yes. Kinda like I'm having this special bond forced in my face because it's so hard to see. Plus I think it takes away from all fours own individuality this way.
Hell eye color would work perfectly as well. A shade of green like Rikus or anything. Just so long as it was something you could readily see unlike the eyebrows. A distinctive feature needs to be easily seen to be distinct ya know?

You wouldn't be alone man. Many of us hated Riku lol. CoM somehow made many of the fans like him though....Not sure how. haha

I know. I thought I conveyed well I was on that bandwagon as well but apparently two words can throw that out of proportion.
Ugh just picturing those kinda debates appearing would be....so bad. A resurgence of old KHI basically.

I tried but failed...I'll just have to ignore the responses on the PoH thing to avoid it getting worse. T__T

It seems that the majority of the KH cast "inherited" Nomura's complexity-...complex which is no surprise since he created the most of them, lol.
The thing with KH is though that, while certainly complicated, it was not written into a corner without a way out before the release of DDD. I fear Nomura put himself more into the corner with DDD rather than (supposedly) moving out of it.
Although the "theme" of the Mysterious Figure in BBS hinted already at something time-related, it didn't have to be something that extreme.
If the whole premise of a work is centered around time travel (or as it at least as a central theme), it is most often also handled completely different from the get go. For example, Warriors Orochi 3 deals heavily with Time Travel, in fact the whole story revolves around it since the initial premise of the game is that a) the best warriors of the three-kingdoms period of China, the Sengoku period of Japan and some other "guests" like Jeanne d'Arc, Akane from Dead or Alive etc. are "summoned" to a dimensional realm by the evil Serpent King Orochi (backstory from WO 1 and 2) and b) that after Orochi's second defeat there comes a giant Hydra (not to be confused with the cheap thing from KH, this one is miles worse) under which destructive power most of the over 140 playable characters die horrible deaths or are enslaved by mind control to serve the demon army under Kiyomori Taira, a demon lord. By the start of the game only three characters remain free in a totally destroyed world, and those are then aided by a "Mystic", a member of a race of immortal beings which bestows on them the power to time travel in order to rescue and recruit as many allies as possible before finding a way to defeat the giant Hydra.
The game allows alternate timelines obviously and the memories of certain characters also play a key role as you can only travel to points in the timeline a living member of your current allies has memories of. So it happens that when you go back in time to i.e. save 6 allies, you might only be able to prevent the death of 4 while the remaining two still die. In order to avert those deaths too, you need the memories of a different ally in order to prevent the event that caused those deaths from happening (like i.e. delayed reinforcements).
The issue is then further complicated by the fact that the immense power of the giant Hydra itself causes massive distortions in the time fabric itself, making it impossible to travel to a point in time before the birth of said Hydra.

Yea, although I guess it depends on how good Nomura is with English in this case. *ggg*
Or he was too eager to fulfill it and simply overdid it big time...and nobody around him seems to have the guts to point that out.

The scenes with Pluto are so damn sweet and hilarious at the same time, even full-time jerkass Saix manages to collect some sympathy points.

Another problem with this might possibly also be that none of these four seems to have much opportunity to show more individualty in relation to the other three, because let's face it, the connections are "shoved into our faces" more through visuals than through actual interactions. Sora and Ventus had no interaction at all outside two inside-heart-conversations which Sora surely doesn't remember, the scene in DDD with the "memory-trauma" is practically the only true conversation Sora had with Roxas so far (not counting the Data-versions from Coded), Ven and Vanitas also have close to no interaction beyond Vanitas always being a stalking jerkass towards Ven while blondy-butt goes from afraid of him to being annoyed in the end-game, then kicking his ass after having enough of his villainy. Sora/Vanitas, Roxas/Ven or Roxas/Vanitas interactions deserve no mention as there are none on all sides in actual canon.
It's hard to see because for how deep and important those connections are stated to be, you get to see very little substantial about them.
Y'know, the more I think about it the more I find it a missed opportunity as colors can of course be mixed. So for example if Sora retained his blue eyes but Ven has brown ones, Roxas could get purple eyes (from mixing brown and blue) to show his status as a hybrid between Sora and Ven.

If I had to take a wild guess I'd say that many people were impressed by Riku actually freely admitting that it was mostly his own fault and that he messed up, not searching for reasons to point fingers on and place the guilt elsewhere. It is after all a rare trait for a human being to admit that they were the primary faulty party in an incident.
That combined with the fact that he really and actively wanted to make amends was probably what swayed people's opinions. At least I know it was what swayed mine on him as I essentially thought that "Riku, while I still cannot condone what you've done (destroying a world, kidnapping and attempted murder are still no trivial offenses), I appreciate your will to atone and am willing to give you another chance". Same goes for Ansem the Wise.

Having experienced this "old" KHI to some extent at least is why I'm so wary of the whole topic. Of course, if Nomura really goes down that route there will be no stopping it anyways.

Seems like it would be for the best.

In theory, Sora and Riku sealing the Keyholes should have awakened the Sleeping Worlds.

I don't remember it being said that opening the seven Keyholes would restore all sleeping worlds that there are in the Realm of Sleep. I would have to search for it since I don't have it all memorized, but I'm plenty sure that it was stated somewhere that either only those worlds whose sleeping Keyholes are opened will awake (as Riku opening Sora's sleeping Keyhole also woke only Sora's heart and not anyone elses) or that only those worlds which are asleep that should already have been restored back in KH 1 but for some reason weren't will be affected.

Even disregarding all this, Daybreak Town cannot truly be put into the same category as all the other worlds as it is practically part of an entire different universe. It's part of the ancient world from before the Keyblade War, so after the destruction of that world it should not be that easy to bring it into the current, rebuilt world of which it technically is not even a part of.

 

[Anagram]

That comes on top of it too. Although it makes one wonder what for plans there might have been initially. Blank Points made it already pretty clear from the beginning that Terra is to be among those who get saved (unlike as for example Eraqus, Isa or Vanitas who get no mention at all), so Nomura must have had something about this in mind at least in a rough concept stage. I'd imagine though that all the new "shiny" stuff Nomura wants to add now messed things up and he decided to simplify some things and cutting corners.
Unlike the initial presentations made in both BBS Blank Points and Re: Coded let to believe, saving the tormented ones does not seem to be the focal point of KH III's story anymore anyways.

Believe it or not initially it annoyed me too. It's no wonder everything becomes progressively harder to understand (and to put together by the staff as well) when nearly everything has to connect to the overaching plot. If a racing game ala "Kingdom Karts" would be made one can almost bet that Nomura would find some convoluted way to connect that to the main story too like i.e. the " Key that leads to the Key to Return Hearts" is actually the prize for an inter-dimensional grand prix of cart racing, sponsored by the "Master of Masters" and everyone and their mother from the KH cast participates in it to get that key for his/her own reasons. Of course, for tormented ones like TAV, Roxas or Naminé to participate, the whole thing has to happen in the Realm of Sleep and by winning each "race track" you can also unlock the sleeping Keyhole of another sleeping world, while time travel allows you to race in worlds that are already awake too, there will be hints and connections to the next KH game and...eeeh, this is getting out of hand...

I think many games so far have been rough concept but poorly executed. Though I've always been dying to know his initial plans myself after learning even CoM wasn't intended. That's another type of different though.
Personally the new direction he's taking seems to be leading from saving to building up this big final battle. By forcing the chi's relevance.
I'm surprised to see even you annoyed by it. That must mean forcing a connection to everything is truly getting out of hand. lol
I now half expect a kingdom karts.

That often also depends on how one defines "poorly handled", I'd say.
Like the fact that Sin, the towering whale-like monster that's the main enemy in FF X, actually pulls a Sephiroth and gets revived for the (supposed) FF X-3 as far as I heard?

It seems that the majority of the KH cast "inherited" Nomura's complexity-...complex which is no surprise since he created the most of them, lol.
The thing with KH is though that, while certainly complicated, it was not written into a corner without a way out before the release of DDD. I fear Nomura put himself more into the corner with DDD rather than (supposedly) moving out of it.
Although the "theme" of the Mysterious Figure in BBS hinted already at something time-related, it didn't have to be something that extreme.
If the whole premise of a work is centered around time travel (or as it at least as a central theme), it is most often also handled completely different from the get go. For example, Warriors Orochi 3 deals heavily with Time Travel, in fact the whole story revolves around it since the initial premise of the game is that a) the best warriors of the three-kingdoms period of China, the Sengoku period of Japan and some other "guests" like Jeanne d'Arc, Akane from Dead or Alive etc. are "summoned" to a dimensional realm by the evil Serpent King Orochi (backstory from WO 1 and 2) and b) that after Orochi's second defeat there comes a giant Hydra (not to be confused with the cheap thing from KH, this one is miles worse) under which destructive power most of the over 140 playable characters die horrible deaths or are enslaved by mind control to serve the demon army under Kiyomori Taira, a demon lord. By the start of the game only three characters remain free in a totally destroyed world, and those are then aided by a "Mystic", a member of a race of immortal beings which bestows on them the power to time travel in order to rescue and recruit as many allies as possible before finding a way to defeat the giant Hydra.
The game allows alternate timelines obviously and the memories of certain characters also play a key role as you can only travel to points in the timeline a living member of your current allies has memories of. So it happens that when you go back in time to i.e. save 6 allies, you might only be able to prevent the death of 4 while the remaining two still die. In order to avert those deaths too, you need the memories of a different ally in order to prevent the event that caused those deaths from happening (like i.e. delayed reinforcements).
The issue is then further complicated by the fact that the immense power of the giant Hydra itself causes massive distortions in the time fabric itself, making it impossible to travel to a point in time before the birth of said Hydra.

Sadly most revivals I feel are a poorly handled case, including this one and the FFX-3.

It's true that KH wasn't written into a corner. The fans having so many yet founded in mythos alternate means of doing DDD shows this. I was merely pointing out that's why time travel is usually looked down on.
That said even if it wasn't in a corner the staple of time travel being kinda like the writer is out of ideas does ring somewhat true here. I'm not sure why Nomura resorted to it only to restrict to Novikov principle.
It just leaves a poor taste since it's like Es only using to explain why there's a young Xehanort or why there's 13.

That's also what I mean. Stories revolving around time travel are handled differently but done so in a way presentable. They run with that from start to end. When you randomly throw it into an established story just to do so it just doesn't go over well.
Another issue with thrown in time travel is that usually it leaves a hole or issue somewhere in the story. Like okay YX forgets so then how does Ansem know to go back and set the time shenanigans in motion? He shouldn't remember either.

Another problem with this might possibly also be that none of these four seems to have much opportunity to show more individualty in relation to the other three, because let's face it, the connections are "shoved into our faces" more through visuals than through actual interactions. Sora and Ventus had no interaction at all outside two inside-heart-conversations which Sora surely doesn't remember, the scene in DDD with the "memory-trauma" is practically the only true conversation Sora had with Roxas so far (not counting the Data-versions from Coded), Ven and Vanitas also have close to no interaction beyond Vanitas always being a stalking jerkass towards Ven while blondy-butt goes from afraid of him to being annoyed in the end-game, then kicking his ass after having enough of his villainy. Sora/Vanitas, Roxas/Ven or Roxas/Vanitas interactions deserve no mention as there are none on all sides in actual canon.
It's hard to see because for how deep and important those connections are stated to be, you get to see very little substantial about them.
Y'know, the more I think about it the more I find it a missed opportunity as colors can of course be mixed. So for example if Sora retained his blue eyes but Ven has brown ones, Roxas could get purple eyes (from mixing brown and blue) to show his status as a hybrid between Sora and Ven.

That is likely some of the issue for some.
Purple eyes would be rather unique! I don't think anyone in the series has had that yet.

If I had to take a wild guess I'd say that many people were impressed by Riku actually freely admitting that it was mostly his own fault and that he messed up, not searching for reasons to point fingers on and place the guilt elsewhere. It is after all a rare trait for a human being to admit that they were the primary faulty party in an incident.
That combined with the fact that he really and actively wanted to make amends was probably what swayed people's opinions. At least I know it was what swayed mine on him as I essentially thought that "Riku, while I still cannot condone what you've done (destroying a world, kidnapping and attempted murder are still no trivial offenses), I appreciate your will to atone and am willing to give you another chance". Same goes for Ansem the Wise.

Having experienced this "old" KHI to some extent at least is why I'm so wary of the whole topic. Of course, if Nomura really goes down that route there will be no stopping it anyways.

This is true. It helped his character greatly since he had a maturity rarely seen. Like how Xehanort shrugs off what he's done. Riku accepts his faults.
Sadly not but one can only hope he doesn't. He's already taken routes that are disputed by fans as is. I mean just look at the fan base. Rather than a fan base of an entire series you largely have a fan base of specific entries or characters in the series.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I think many games so far have been rough concept but poorly executed. Though I've always been dying to know his initial plans myself after learning even CoM wasn't intended. That's another type of different though.
Personally the new direction he's taking seems to be leading from saving to building up this big final battle. By forcing the chi's relevance.
I'm surprised to see even you annoyed by it. That must mean forcing a connection to everything is truly getting out of hand. lol
I now half expect a kingdom karts.

That's the underlying main problem I think the series has as a whole. Nomura has many great and undoubtly highly creative ideas and makes some neat concepts for these, but when it comes to fleshing these concepts and ideas out and properly present them to the audience it falls flat in at least 7 of 10 cases leaving one facepalming at the execution of something that comes over mediocre but could be awesome otherwise.
Yep, and by mentioning this "missing page" from the prophecy-book as well as the "prophecy" plainly stating "the Darkness wins", Nomura is setting up one of his by now infamous twist filibusters, as seldom does anything that is stated totally clearly actually happen like it is stated in this series.
Nomura makes this setup plainly for throwing more surprises into it.

It annoys me specifically because it was first stated to be otherwise actually. If this goes on the KH series will eventually have an universe that is like a "city" but where of every building only the foundation walls are raised up. Instead of truly finishing the buildings that are there, each time there are put up foundation walls for a new one.

I would actually be game for a Kingdom Karts IF it would be a funny, lighthearted title without story clutter, lol.

Sadly most revivals I feel are a poorly handled case, including this one and the FFX-3.

It's true that KH wasn't written into a corner. The fans having so many yet founded in mythos alternate means of doing DDD shows this. I was merely pointing out that's why time travel is usually looked down on.
That said even if it wasn't in a corner the staple of time travel being kinda like the writer is out of ideas does ring somewhat true here. I'm not sure why Nomura resorted to it only to restrict to Novikov principle.
It just leaves a poor taste since it's like Es only using to explain why there's a young Xehanort or why there's 13.

Luckily it seems that an actual FF X-3 is not even planned (yet?). As much as I disliked FF X-2 for several reasons, I think the 100% ending of that one gave a satisfying close on Spira and the FFX-Universe as a whole.

Or Nomura has too many ideas and mixes them up in the worst possible combinations. It being done for "surprise" is also again a factor that needs to be considered, as many of the alternate interpretations and scenarios done by fans to get exactly the same result that DDD showed without the time travel often are 99,99% simpler than Nomura's used version. Maybe Nomura truly does not like "simple" at all?

That's also what I mean. Stories revolving around time travel are handled differently but done so in a way presentable. They run with that from start to end. When you randomly throw it into an established story just to do so it just doesn't go over well.
Another issue with thrown in time travel is that usually it leaves a hole or issue somewhere in the story. Like okay YX forgets so then how does Ansem know to go back and set the time shenanigans in motion? He shouldn't remember either.


That is likely some of the issue for some.
Purple eyes would be rather unique! I don't think anyone in the series has had that yet.


This is true. It helped his character greatly since he had a maturity rarely seen. Like how Xehanort shrugs off what he's done. Riku accepts his faults.
Sadly not but one can only hope he doesn't. He's already taken routes that are disputed by fans as is. I mean just look at the fan base. Rather than a fan base of an entire series you largely have a fan base of specific entries or characters in the series.

Blegh, that's why I'd rather forego it being used in any central manner ever again.

It's actually an issue I have a slight hope for KH III to remedy a little. Let them interact, damnit, and not just in a "heart"-to-"heart" connection dream jumbo...<__<
As far as KH goes, nope, purple eyes seem to be not among the characters so far. Of course, in Anime purple eyes in different shades are more common, but I think Seymour Guado from FF X also has purple eyes.

I guess that may also be why Riku is so well liked especially among the western fandom in general, he accepts his faults and works super-hard to make up for the shit he caused. Another of these things why I'm still hoping in the back of my head that there will be some interaction between Riku and Disney characters like Jasmine or the Beast and possibly Roxas again in the future.
Xehanort not only shrugs it off, he also does the pointing fingers and redirecting guilt-variant by "blaming" it all on "fate/destiny".
While it is certainly not as bad as the FF or Sonic-fandom, the KH fanbase does indeed have a whole plethora of base breakers and "dueling fandom" aspects that sometimes makes it really strenuous to enjoy the series as a whole or have (like me) several favorite characters I like equally (for example I hate it when fans go and play characters like Roxas and Ven or Naminé and Xion against each other).

 

[ShardofTruth]

I think the problem with the narrative with long-standing series like Kingdom Hearts is not unique in storytelling, especially not among videogames, but I definitely agree that most of them are indeed caused by Nomura's "obsession" to connect everything.

But unlike you, Sephiroth and Anagram, I don't think he did and does this because it just doesn't know better. We all know videogames are developed in cycles, you leave enough open questions and plot points that may be explored in further games and may even develop some concepts (like the secret movies in KH and KHII) but apart from that everything can change along the way.
Another important fact to point out is that Nomura doesn't have 100% control of the franchise, or do you really think he would have split the series on so many platforms in the first place? No, it's the other way around, the higher ups of Square Enix decide releasing a Kingdom Hearts game for a certain console would be a great idea (because market research and stuff) so someone has to make it, even a stupid freemium game about collecting thousands of cards with little gameplay whatsoever.
It's my firm believe that Nomura simply tries to make the best of the situation, even trying to give a simple browser game a reason to exist, because he adapts the overaching story for it. If you followed the development of [chi] you can clearly see that it was a different game in the beginning, at least story-wise, but got more and more fleshed out along the way when Nomura became more involved with it, the story became more "Kingdom-Hearts-y" so to speak. It simply doesn't work any other way, look how Nintendo embarrassed itself with the Legend of Zelda timeline.

From the perspective of a clean narrative it probably would have been better to exclude handheld, mobile and mindless brower games from the canon, but there is always a chance to explore a different perspective or see how the gameplay can also affect the story in a different way. It never works 100% but when does it ever?