The Identity of Chirithy's Master

[Morgenstern]

There has to be a reason as to why one of the Foretellers eventually turns decisively against the other four, a sort of trigger if you so want.

Why not Ava? She seems to be the one doubting the unions (how own included) and it seems likely that if she realizes that their actions are not preventing the War, but just making it inevitable, would try to do something to end it.

Plus all we know that there is a traitor, we do not know if they are evil or not (Do we? I haven't caught up with chi due to language barriers and not finding Unchained videos that are up to date storywise).

 

[Alpha Baymax]

The Master of Masters is most likely Anem The Wise Reincarnated.

 

[Audo]

The Master of Masters is most likely Anem The Wise Reincarnated.

You have that backwards.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I not only realize but wonder every day how even he knows. lol


I'd see it as being one of the most likely reasons. It's existence keeps KH present but it also puts everything in danger by allowing access to that which no access should be had.


The point I'm making is that we have no confirmations. You gave one example and I gave another to show that anything really goes at this point. I personally just see a remorseful villain unlikely.
I just assume foreteller for now. As always though I also find their master an awfully suspect individual too.


I'm not on a premise that it could only be a foreteller. Just the absence of the 6th leaves me, for now, under the assumption they're either the big bad or in on it.
The fact a page is missing from a book held by their master yet with five copies among, meaning as far as we know now it's an exclusive text, tells me a foreteller is more likely involved than some random master thief.

Basically going by most logical deduction for now.


Your making an assumption the traitor is a Riku then. I'm mostly was throwing an example to show we know not much. I do however highly doubt the instigator was remorseful. Now whether that main catalyst is a foreteller or otherwise I dont dare try to defend or confirm. Like you just going on assumptions of what I know now combined with the notion that I doubt any bringer of armageddon knows remorse.

It is the "oldest" and from what I see of your posts keyblades were original ill intent so I think it being bad is an 80%. It's also why I find the master more suspect than any of them. The foretellers can make keyblades or whatever it is they do to get such big guilds so quick.
To me that leaves two possibilities. 1) their master, with his eyes or other means, found a way to replicate that which shouldn't be (the Xblade) 2) they're using their tomes which views the future to make them in some form of temporal paradox like situation

Naturally 2 goes against the notion they was ill intended to begin with since, like you just said, at least 4 to 5 of that group wanted more positive outcomes. Which is what leans me to option 1 and their master being an incredibly questionable being.

I'm not putting it past Nomura arranging such parallels intentionally, especially since he also hinted at X[chi] finally shedding some light on the reasons for Xehanort's obsession with Kingdom Hearts.

Putting it that way makes one wonder who was the "idiot" that created something as tempting and dangerous as the X-blade in the first place. If something has so much power that mortal/flawed beings such as humans should have no access to it, there should be no means for access provided to begin with.
There are indeed quite some honorable, strong willed and reliable humans around, but humanity as a whole holds also many individuals with too high ambitions (Xehanort being only one extreme example) who are all to easily tempted by the prospect of gaining access to such power.

That was my entire point about it too, lol.
Since we have no confirmations yet, I personally also refrain designating this particular individual a villain yet. An antagonist certainly, but not necessarily a villain.
The Great Grand Master (GGM, as I refuse to use MoM for Master of Masters as an abbreviation, we already use that one otherwise) needs indeed to be kept on the list, because of several reasons actually.

I'm very wary of using the moniker big bad for the chi-time period yet as I'm pretty convinced we haven't yet met him/her at all. Xehanort is the big bad of the present, so much is to more than 90% clear I'd say, yet in chi there are several candidates running for the position and I'm reluctant to give it even to the traitor-foreteller, as all five are supposed to have at least the same end goal. Bringing about the apocalypse goes completely against that end goal.
On the missing page though I just realize: Is the page in question missing from the original and thus not in the copies the Foretellers have or has it been ripped from the five copies?
In the former case, they could try to gain knowledge on what the missing page contains by reading the original.

I was using the Riku-"type" of character as an alternate example to what the traitor could be about, yes, while I had more the impression that you gave the "Xehanort"-type as the more likely character frame for him/her.
Since we really don't know very much the traitorous Foreteller can be any character type or even something completely new in that regard, so while I agree that the instigator of the armageddon won't be likely to be remorseful, it is not yet clear that the traitorous Foreteller is that instigator.
In KH 1 many also thought that we had the big bad at hand with Maleficent at first only for it to be someone entirely different working from the shadows in the end.

It is the most ancient known Keyblade, yes, so it either is THE prototype meaning the first Keyblade crafted in the image of the X-blade or it is a part of the first or second set of Keyblades made. We have only Yen Sid's words and the glossary in DDD to go by which state that the Keyblades were originally created to "conquer the light", so while the Foreteller's goals and even intentions may be noble, the person or force who created the first man-made Keyblade had certainly not so noble intentions.
It remains to be unraveled if the person/force who created the first man-made Keyblades and the one who gave the Foretellers the means to create even more of them is the same or if the Foretellers got the procedure to make Keyblades from someone who does not know about the malevolent original intent for which the man-made Keyblades are made.
After all, most of the present Keyblade Wielders are using the weapon to do mostly good deeds and aren't aware of the original intent they were made for.

This has some striking resemblance to the Clone Troopers and the Grand Army of the Republic in Star Wars, which was outwardly presented and used to help the Jedi defend the Galactic Republic from the evil Droid armies of the Sith-backed Separatist-Confederacy. In reality though the Clone Army had an underlying sinister, second purpose which was to eradicate the Jedi once a certain order was given to it by the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic (who is in reality the Sith Lord who also controls the Separatists, making the whole Clone Wars nothing but a years-long elaborate trap to annihilate the Jedi and replace the Republic with a Sith-dominated Empire).
The man-made Keyblades in x[chi] might have a similar thing going on with them being presented as a tool to save the light to the Foretellers who thus decide to use them (just like the Jedi Council and the Galactic Senate agreed to defend the Republic by making use of the Clone Army), but the underlying purpose is to actually lead them to destroy everything from the outset.
This overall manipulating force can be the sixth Apprentice, it can be the Grand Master, it can even be Ephemera or someone we do not know yet...and the overall goal of this manipulating force may also be similar to Palpatine of Star Wars: It was to replace the current, galaxy-wide democratic government of the Galactic Republic with a sith-style autocratic tyranny, or worded otherwise, to replace the current galactic order with a new order modeled after Palpatine's ideals and ambitions.
In KH, there's also a force which seeks to destroy the current (universal) order in order to impose a new one based on own ideals. Now am I speaking about the ominuous big bad of the chi-time period or of Xehanort? ;P

I always knew that Xehanort, especially old Master Xehanort, has some eerie similarities to Palpatine, but since I just rewatched Star Wars: Episode III again last weekend I've it still fresh in my mind that even their manner of speech is highly similar to each other:

Someone must tear down this tyranny of light and reorganize the World around the darkness which then creeps back in.

In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire for a safe and secure society.

The wording is different as Palpatine in that speech has already reached the goal Xehanort wants to get to, but the core meaning is nearly the same.
Just like Xehanort uses the "balance of light and dark" as an excuse, Palpatine uses "security and stability" in order to justify his ascension to autocrat and toppling the current world order.

Eeeh?
Sorry, that last paragraph with all the comparisions to Star Wars went a little off the rails I realize...jeez, I've had too much SW input recently...

Why not Ava? She seems to be the one doubting the unions (how own included) and it seems likely that if she realizes that their actions are not preventing the War, but just making it inevitable, would try to do something to end it.

Plus all we know that there is a traitor, we do not know if they are evil or not (Do we? I haven't caught up with chi due to language barriers and not finding Unchained videos that are up to date storywise).

Of course she could be it too. I'm not ruling out anyone as for that we simply do not know enough of the Foretellers as individuals yet. So far we got some glimpses of Ava, but these certainly do not rule her out yet.

Exactly, we do not even know what exactly the traitorous act (or acts) are yet. It's entirely possible that for example telling someone from the outside (like Ephemera) something about the book of Prophecies might already be seen as "treason" by the Foretellers regardless of the reasons why it was done.

 

[BlackOsprey]

Eeeh?
Sorry, that last paragraph with all the comparisions to Star Wars went a little off the rails I realize...jeez, I've had too much SW input recently...

Ha, there's no such thing as "too much Star Wars input." Especially when you can draw comparisons like that from it. And we also have to take into consideration that SE has quite a few Star Wars fanboys in their staff. I wouldn't be surprised if all those parallels you pointed out were deliberate, or at least inspired by the events of a galaxy far, far away.

 

[Anagram]

I'm not putting it past Nomura arranging such parallels intentionally, especially since he also hinted at X[chi] finally shedding some light on the reasons for Xehanort's obsession with Kingdom Hearts.

Putting it that way makes one wonder who was the "idiot" that created something as tempting and dangerous as the X-blade in the first place. If something has so much power that mortal/flawed beings such as humans should have no access to it, there should be no means for access provided to begin with.
There are indeed quite some honorable, strong willed and reliable humans around, but humanity as a whole holds also many individuals with too high ambitions (Xehanort being only one extreme example) who are all to easily tempted by the prospect of gaining access to such power.

That was my entire point about it too, lol.
Since we have no confirmations yet, I personally also refrain designating this particular individual a villain yet. An antagonist certainly, but not necessarily a villain.
The Great Grand Master (GGM, as I refuse to use MoM for Master of Masters as an abbreviation, we already use that one otherwise) needs indeed to be kept on the list, because of several reasons actually.

I'm very wary of using the moniker big bad for the chi-time period yet as I'm pretty convinced we haven't yet met him/her at all. Xehanort is the big bad of the present, so much is to more than 90% clear I'd say, yet in chi there are several candidates running for the position and I'm reluctant to give it even to the traitor-foreteller, as all five are supposed to have at least the same end goal. Bringing about the apocalypse goes completely against that end goal.
On the missing page though I just realize: Is the page in question missing from the original and thus not in the copies the Foretellers have or has it been ripped from the five copies?
In the former case, they could try to gain knowledge on what the missing page contains by reading the original.

I was using the Riku-"type" of character as an alternate example to what the traitor could be about, yes, while I had more the impression that you gave the "Xehanort"-type as the more likely character frame for him/her.
Since we really don't know very much the traitorous Foreteller can be any character type or even something completely new in that regard, so while I agree that the instigator of the armageddon won't be likely to be remorseful, it is not yet clear that the traitorous Foreteller is that instigator.
In KH 1 many also thought that we had the big bad at hand with Maleficent at first only for it to be someone entirely different working from the shadows in the end.

It is the most ancient known Keyblade, yes, so it either is THE prototype meaning the first Keyblade crafted in the image of the X-blade or it is a part of the first or second set of Keyblades made. We have only Yen Sid's words and the glossary in DDD to go by which state that the Keyblades were originally created to "conquer the light", so while the Foreteller's goals and even intentions may be noble, the person or force who created the first man-made Keyblade had certainly not so noble intentions.
It remains to be unraveled if the person/force who created the first man-made Keyblades and the one who gave the Foretellers the means to create even more of them is the same or if the Foretellers got the procedure to make Keyblades from someone who does not know about the malevolent original intent for which the man-made Keyblades are made.
After all, most of the present Keyblade Wielders are using the weapon to do mostly good deeds and aren't aware of the original intent they were made for.

This has some striking resemblance to the Clone Troopers and the Grand Army of the Republic in Star Wars, which was outwardly presented and used to help the Jedi defend the Galactic Republic from the evil Droid armies of the Sith-backed Separatist-Confederacy. In reality though the Clone Army had an underlying sinister, second purpose which was to eradicate the Jedi once a certain order was given to it by the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic (who is in reality the Sith Lord who also controls the Separatists, making the whole Clone Wars nothing but a years-long elaborate trap to annihilate the Jedi and replace the Republic with a Sith-dominated Empire).
The man-made Keyblades in x[chi] might have a similar thing going on with them being presented as a tool to save the light to the Foretellers who thus decide to use them (just like the Jedi Council and the Galactic Senate agreed to defend the Republic by making use of the Clone Army), but the underlying purpose is to actually lead them to destroy everything from the outset.
This overall manipulating force can be the sixth Apprentice, it can be the Grand Master, it can even be Ephemera or someone we do not know yet...and the overall goal of this manipulating force may also be similar to Palpatine of Star Wars: It was to replace the current, galaxy-wide democratic government of the Galactic Republic with a sith-style autocratic tyranny, or worded otherwise, to replace the current galactic order with a new order modeled after Palpatine's ideals and ambitions.
In KH, there's also a force which seeks to destroy the current (universal) order in order to impose a new one based on own ideals. Now am I speaking about the ominuous big bad of the chi-time period or of Xehanort? ;P

I always knew that Xehanort, especially old Master Xehanort, has some eerie similarities to Palpatine, but since I just rewatched Star Wars: Episode III again last weekend I've it still fresh in my mind that even their manner of speech is highly similar to each other:

The wording is different as Palpatine in that speech has already reached the goal Xehanort wants to get to, but the core meaning is nearly the same.
Just like Xehanort uses the "balance of light and dark" as an excuse, Palpatine uses "security and stability" in order to justify his ascension to autocrat and toppling the current world order.

Sadly I can't put him past parallels either I just wish he wouldn't. To much parallel just gets stale and unoriginal to me. Like having a good portion of your original cast being copies/nobodies/clones of another one. His shock of Aqua being so popular due to lack of existing bonds just speaks of it. (some of it might be her being a female too though I guess)

Assuming the old world itself wasn't the result of a reality rewrite (i.e someone getting to KH) then the Xblade was likely a natural occurrence or a divine one. In more than one mythology the divine can be just as flawed as humanity~
But it does make you wonder how it all came about.

I dont designate 100% myself but try to steer from the traitor or 6th being misguided since I wont want yet another Riku/Terra plot. lol
(I just call him Grand Master myself haha) Tbh I think the Grand Master is currently the most suspect individual since the chain and history of keyblades starts with him.

It's best to not give monikers yet. We was just throwing examples around is all. =3
I've been wondering that since a missing page was mentioned. I'm leaning toward the final page being ripped from the original since I doubt even the best thief could sneak past each Foreteller and remove a page from their precious books lol. (unless, that is, it was the master who removed that final page before making said copies)

I wasn't really giving a Xehanort type, just the typical villain type of lacking remorse. Naturally Xehanort has this common villain trait.
A foreteller may not be an instigator at all. Placing myself in that situation I know that rather than building forces of my own it'd be WAAAAYYYYY simpler to just cause an instigation between large factions. Someone could've made a foreteller out as a 'traitor' or set them up to do something traitorous. Lots of possibility.

Personally I think of the goat-blade (yes I'm totally going with that name for now) is THE first or just the second set along with the Foretellers five. It's the most ancient currently so it's either the first or whatever the Master & Foretellers had vanished with them.
There is a phrase that "The path to hell is paved with good intentions". So you think something gave the first to the Master? To be the "master of masters" and master of all keyblade masters he had to have had something.
One reason I find him more suspicious. Though he himself could've been a victim of something or, as much as I'd rather not see it, he could've been a *cringes to say it* Ansem-The-Wise parallel and made it out of scientific intrigue only for it to go out of hand. (like emblem heartless)

Whatever our force was the possibility of a keyblade being a 'clone troopers ploy' seems valid. The foretellers thought their goal noble and clearly idolized this master to some extend. The contradicting legends of the keyblade from older games could be a nod to it. (remembers the Kh2 ending saying "one legend says it's wielder saved the world, while another says he destroyed it")
No matter who it's revealed to be I'm sure the Master and the 6th will be at the center. The fact that both are gone and that the 6th was denied a book means something. Like maybe the master had two sides to him, the benevolent one that has students and makes Chrithy, and a bad one that takes over his 6th students body. (I just realized the master is as contradicting as the keyblades legends are....)

Ha, there's no such thing as "too much Star Wars input." Especially when you can draw comparisons like that from it. And we also have to take into consideration that SE has quite a few Star Wars fanboys in their staff. I wouldn't be surprised if all those parallels you pointed out were deliberate, or at least inspired by the events of a galaxy far, far away.

I find that highly arguable tbh. lol
But it is a fun tidbit that Nomura chose Spock and Hamill as voices. (right?)

 

[Wildbullet]

Star Wars aside (not really a fan), I like this theory. But, something doesn't add up.

We all know that Chi is a "fairy-taled (i.e. Disneyfied)" version of what was a darker and destructive story. I read the rebirth theory recently myself and while it was good, it was full of holes I can nitpick apart. This theory, while good and I actually support it until the canon material says what's really true, just adds to my numerous doubts. We already also know that there are seekers of darkness who masquerade as those who guard the light, that much is obvious. We also can't forget that no matter what the alignment, regardless of the directive, the Unions were responsible for their own infighting that led to great mass murders(?) that dragged even the worlds that weren't involved into the war, and cost a lot of lives. That's the way war is. I think I'll address all those holes of both theories here then, since they will ultimately question just who or what the Master of Masters is and why he acts the way he did.

Who is the sixth apprentice? Could it really have been a Xehanort incarnation? I find it hard to believe because why would Xehanort be trying to repeat the Keyblade War to see the result because if he was the sixth apprentice wouldn't he have already witnessed the result of the original and know the knowledge of what could happen in that event?

Why the exclusion of the sixth apprentice? Was it that like Eraqus, he saw darkness in the sixth and therefore deemed unworthy? A hidden back-up plan and last resort contingency in case the five foretellers had gone rogue?

Who is the unknown who met with the five foretellers in the Daybreak Town tower? Is he actually the sixth apprentice, or at least a connection?

Why create Chirithy? How could Chirithy coexist with the Heartless then, if Chi is a world or sub-story submerged in sleep only meant to retell the past?

Why is there a non-existent world constructed to collect the light of the current one World?

Why do Heartless in Chi drop light (LUX) when defeated? Is it because in the deepest darkness there is a light that never goes out? Or is it something more sinister by someone who is pulling strings in the non-existent world during the Chi missions? Could it be that the Heartless in the missions and Daybreak Town are actually an illusion made by that someone? It's possible since Xion and Roxas nearly fought to the death thinking the other was a Heartless. If that is so, wouldn't those Heartless actually be... and that those lights were actually lights that didn't come from Heartless but other... and...

What was the structure of the one World before it fell? Where is the non-existent world that was made situated?

Who are the ones who masquerade and pretend, sowing discord among the Keyblade Masters in that time? The Foretellers all claim to defend the light but are there also those who falsify and pretend? Was this paranoia and insecurity that helped in hastening the start of the War when trust was lost and they started fighting over the light (LUX)?

What about Ephemera? How is he not bound to a Union?

Was the Master of Masters aware about the infighting and the intrigue that his apprentices would cause? Did he know what exactly would culminate in the Keyblade War? If he knew, why did he do what he did and why does he act the way he is? What was his story? When was he active during the Age of Fairy Tales?

That's probably it for now. If I have more questions I'll post them.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Ha, there's no such thing as "too much Star Wars input." Especially when you can draw comparisons like that from it. And we also have to take into consideration that SE has quite a few Star Wars fanboys in their staff. I wouldn't be surprised if all those parallels you pointed out were deliberate, or at least inspired by the events of a galaxy far, far away.

To be honest it largely depends on how the input from another work affects the work in question.
Having parallels and shoutouts inspired by the other work is ok as long as they do not get overbearing.

As an avid Star Wars fan myself, I'm somewhat amused by many of the parallels, but what I certainly don't want to see is the great Keyblade War being something similar in fashion as the Clone Wars in Star Wars, as in being a conflict where one person/faction in secret controls all sides of the war itself through different pawns with the sole goal to gain ultimate power for him/herself.

Sadly I can't put him past parallels either I just wish he wouldn't. To much parallel just gets stale and unoriginal to me. Like having a good portion of your original cast being copies/nobodies/clones of another one. His shock of Aqua being so popular due to lack of existing bonds just speaks of it. (some of it might be her being a female too though I guess)

Assuming the old world itself wasn't the result of a reality rewrite (i.e someone getting to KH) then the Xblade was likely a natural occurrence or a divine one. In more than one mythology the divine can be just as flawed as humanity~
But it does make you wonder how it all came about.

The more I think about it the more I get the feeling that making those parallels in between several "generations" of major characters is a sort of "tick" Nomura has just like the need to make everything "surprising". Both can help the work if used in the right doses, but overdoing it can quite hurt it.
Having a cast with several copies/clones whatever can be done well, but ONLY when each copy gets enough coverage and attention so that the audience can differentiate the characters by things other than appearance. This leads again back to Star Wars, but there they did it mostly right as in the CGI-TV series "The Clone Wars" there are several episodes who focus on individual groups of the titular Clone Troopers and despite all looking the same, several of them develop unique personalities and quirks. In fact, most of the Jedi encourage them to build an own individualty as despite being clones they're still living individuals.
As for Nomura's reaction to Aqua's popularity, I'm not sure but this could also be at least partly general difference of culture between Japan and the rest of the world.
It does make one wonder nonetheless though as while Nomura was still only involved with Final Fantasy as a character designer, he had to create very diverse casts with very few clones among them.
Ephemera luckily seems to be not totally based on any known character so far, despite the silver hair.

Good point, the "divine" or gods can sometimes even be vastly bigger jerkasses than humanity.
If the X-blade's occurrence was truly natural, I wonder where the knowledge to make copies of it in its image came from. At least one sentient being needs to have seen it (the original) at least once for this to work.

I dont designate 100% myself but try to steer from the traitor or 6th being misguided since I wont want yet another Riku/Terra plot. lol
(I just call him Grand Master myself haha) Tbh I think the Grand Master is currently the most suspect individual since the chain and history of keyblades starts with him.

It's best to not give monikers yet. We was just throwing examples around is all. =3
I've been wondering that since a missing page was mentioned. I'm leaning toward the final page being ripped from the original since I doubt even the best thief could sneak past each Foreteller and remove a page from their precious books lol. (unless, that is, it was the master who removed that final page before making said copies)

I wasn't really giving a Xehanort type, just the typical villain type of lacking remorse. Naturally Xehanort has this common villain trait.
A foreteller may not be an instigator at all. Placing myself in that situation I know that rather than building forces of my own it'd be WAAAAYYYYY simpler to just cause an instigation between large factions. Someone could've made a foreteller out as a 'traitor' or set them up to do something traitorous. Lots of possibility.

Ah I see, lol, so we're both not wanting a certain antagonist plot recycled, just a different primary one.
Agreed, although the notion that he/she seemingly "vanishes" after giving the copies of the book to the Foretellers makes me feel uneasy even more.
Depending on if the disappearance was voluntary or not we might already get a hint on the nature of this entity as I cannot really imagine a caring Master with good intentions leaving his pupils alone with a prophecy about Armageddon in their hands completely without guidance.
It's likely the Foretellers do not have the "eye to see the future" themselves so them being left alone with handling all the things just screams for one or more of them going bonkers under the pressure and do something stupid.

Seems reasonable. So that means if it was truly ripped from the original book and it was not the Grand Master him/herself who removed it, it still needs to be someone who knows where that book is kept and who is allowed to enter that location, which could apply to both the "traitor" Foreteller as well as the ominuous Sixth Apprentice (as I doubt that the Grand Master's cleaning lady would get up and damage the property of her employer).

Yep, that's more around the setup I was thinking about. While they have the same end goal, the Foretellers cannot agree on the most effective method and yet there's much pressure because the fate of the entire world is at stake.
In such an environment I could imagine that it'd be rather easy for someone good with words and persuasion to subtly sow distrust and discord among the Foretellers, possibly with even more than one to work towards an escalation that causes so much ruckus so the last remnants of trust between them are destroyed.

Personally I think of the goat-blade (yes I'm totally going with that name for now) is THE first or just the second set along with the Foretellers five. It's the most ancient currently so it's either the first or whatever the Master & Foretellers had vanished with them.
There is a phrase that "The path to hell is paved with good intentions". So you think something gave the first to the Master? To be the "master of masters" and master of all keyblade masters he had to have had something.
One reason I find him more suspicious. Though he himself could've been a victim of something or, as much as I'd rather not see it, he could've been a *cringes to say it* Ansem-The-Wise parallel and made it out of scientific intrigue only for it to go out of hand. (like emblem heartless)

Whatever our force was the possibility of a keyblade being a 'clone troopers ploy' seems valid. The foretellers thought their goal noble and clearly idolized this master to some extend. The contradicting legends of the keyblade from older games could be a nod to it. (remembers the Kh2 ending saying "one legend says it's wielder saved the world, while another says he destroyed it")
No matter who it's revealed to be I'm sure the Master and the 6th will be at the center. The fact that both are gone and that the 6th was denied a book means something. Like maybe the master had two sides to him, the benevolent one that has students and makes Chrithy, and a bad one that takes over his 6th students body. (I just realized the master is as contradicting as the keyblades legends are....)

Goat-blade is the best term because nearly everyone knows which Keyblade is meant and it's faster to say than "Master Xehanort's Keyblade", *ggg*.
Both are highly possible scenarios due to the similarity between the Goat-blade and the Foreteller ones. It is either part of the same set or the "parent" of the Foreteller ones (which would bring in another eerie parallel to the Lord of the Rings with the Goat-blade being the "Master"-Ring while the Foreteller-blades are the "human"-rings whose bearers in LotR were eventually turned into the Nazgul, servants neither alive nor dead and enslaved to the Master-Ring, always doing its bidding).
I've had that Grand Master/Ansem the Wise parallel in mind as well for some time, especially since there being five apprentices with an odd sixth one being true for both of them as well as the fact there's one initial traitor (one Foreteller/Braig) and the sixth one (unknown/Xehanort) may turn out to be very dangerous.

The contradicting legends of the Keyblade actually reinforce the whole issue, as in the "normal" galactic populace the Clone Troopers were also either regarded as valiant defenders of order and peace who help the Jedi to protect the Republic or as a juggernaut of destruction which helped paving the way for the oppression and tyranny of the Empire into which the Republic was transformed. Which interpretation is dominant depends on where in the galaxy you are and where the majority of loyalty of a particular planet lies.

Indeed, apart from the question what flowerboy Ephemera really is, the 6th and the Grand Master are arguably the most intriguing characters of the chi-era.

Star Wars aside (not really a fan), I like this theory. But, something doesn't add up.

We all know that Chi is a "fairy-taled (i.e. Disneyfied)" version of what was a darker and destructive story. I read the rebirth theory recently myself and while it was good, it was full of holes I can nitpick apart. This theory, while good and I actually support it until the canon material says what's really true, just adds to my numerous doubts. We already also know that there are seekers of darkness who masquerade as those who guard the light, that much is obvious. We also can't forget that no matter what the alignment, regardless of the directive, the Unions were responsible for their own infighting that led to great mass murders(?) that dragged even the worlds that weren't involved into the war, and cost a lot of lives. That's the way war is. I think I'll address all those holes of both theories here then, since they will ultimately question just who or what the Master of Masters is and why he acts the way he did.

Who is the sixth apprentice? Could it really have been a Xehanort incarnation? I find it hard to believe because why would Xehanort be trying to repeat the Keyblade War to see the result because if he was the sixth apprentice wouldn't he have already witnessed the result of the original and know the knowledge of what could happen in that event?

Why the exclusion of the sixth apprentice? Was it that like Eraqus, he saw darkness in the sixth and therefore deemed unworthy? A hidden back-up plan and last resort contingency in case the five foretellers had gone rogue?

Who is the unknown who met with the five foretellers in the Daybreak Town tower? Is he actually the sixth apprentice, or at least a connection?

Why create Chirithy? How could Chirithy coexist with the Heartless then, if Chi is a world or sub-story submerged in sleep only meant to retell the past?

Why is there a non-existent world constructed to collect the light of the current one World?

Why do Heartless in Chi drop light (LUX) when defeated? Is it because in the deepest darkness there is a light that never goes out? Or is it something more sinister by someone who is pulling strings in the non-existent world during the Chi missions? Could it be that the Heartless in the missions and Daybreak Town are actually an illusion made by that someone? It's possible since Xion and Roxas nearly fought to the death thinking the other was a Heartless. If that is so, wouldn't those Heartless actually be... and that those lights were actually lights that didn't come from Heartless but other... and...

What was the structure of the one World before it fell? Where is the non-existent world that was made situated?

Who are the ones who masquerade and pretend, sowing discord among the Keyblade Masters in that time? The Foretellers all claim to defend the light but are there also those who falsify and pretend? Was this paranoia and insecurity that helped in hastening the start of the War when trust was lost and they started fighting over the light (LUX)?

What about Ephemera? How is he not bound to a Union?

Was the Master of Masters aware about the infighting and the intrigue that his apprentices would cause? Did he know what exactly would culminate in the Keyblade War? If he knew, why did he do what he did and why does he act the way he is? What was his story? When was he active during the Age of Fairy Tales?

That's probably it for now. If I have more questions I'll post them.

Those are all valid and good questions, nonetheless I'm confident to say that as of now I can't answer a single of them with certainty.

 

[Alpha Baymax]

You have that backwards.

Yes, you are right. Point being, Ansem The Wise has always been looked as a wise figure. A previous version of him being The Masters of Masters isn't too far out of the question.

 

[Michael Mario]

Star Wars aside (not really a fan), I like this theory. But, something doesn't add up.

We all know that Chi is a "fairy-taled (i.e. Disneyfied)" version of what was a darker and destructive story. I read the rebirth theory recently myself and while it was good, it was full of holes I can nitpick apart. This theory, while good and I actually support it until the canon material says what's really true, just adds to my numerous doubts. We already also know that there are seekers of darkness who masquerade as those who guard the light, that much is obvious. We also can't forget that no matter what the alignment, regardless of the directive, the Unions were responsible for their own infighting that led to great mass murders(?) that dragged even the worlds that weren't involved into the war, and cost a lot of lives. That's the way war is. I think I'll address all those holes of both theories here then, since they will ultimately question just who or what the Master of Masters is and why he acts the way he did.

Who is the sixth apprentice? Could it really have been a Xehanort incarnation? I find it hard to believe because why would Xehanort be trying to repeat the Keyblade War to see the result because if he was the sixth apprentice wouldn't he have already witnessed the result of the original and know the knowledge of what could happen in that event?

Why the exclusion of the sixth apprentice? Was it that like Eraqus, he saw darkness in the sixth and therefore deemed unworthy? A hidden back-up plan and last resort contingency in case the five foretellers had gone rogue?

Who is the unknown who met with the five foretellers in the Daybreak Town tower? Is he actually the sixth apprentice, or at least a connection?

Why create Chirithy? How could Chirithy coexist with the Heartless then, if Chi is a world or sub-story submerged in sleep only meant to retell the past?

Why is there a non-existent world constructed to collect the light of the current one World?

Why do Heartless in Chi drop light (LUX) when defeated? Is it because in the deepest darkness there is a light that never goes out? Or is it something more sinister by someone who is pulling strings in the non-existent world during the Chi missions? Could it be that the Heartless in the missions and Daybreak Town are actually an illusion made by that someone? It's possible since Xion and Roxas nearly fought to the death thinking the other was a Heartless. If that is so, wouldn't those Heartless actually be... and that those lights were actually lights that didn't come from Heartless but other... and...

What was the structure of the one World before it fell? Where is the non-existent world that was made situated?

Who are the ones who masquerade and pretend, sowing discord among the Keyblade Masters in that time? The Foretellers all claim to defend the light but are there also those who falsify and pretend? Was this paranoia and insecurity that helped in hastening the start of the War when trust was lost and they started fighting over the light (LUX)?

What about Ephemera? How is he not bound to a Union?

Was the Master of Masters aware about the infighting and the intrigue that his apprentices would cause? Did he know what exactly would culminate in the Keyblade War? If he knew, why did he do what he did and why does he act the way he is? What was his story? When was he active during the Age of Fairy Tales?

That's probably it for now. If I have more questions I'll post them.

Hrm... Let me take a crack at some of them.

As far as the Master of Masters and the sixth Foreteller go, it's impossible to tell which one could be responsible for leading the Foretellers to instigate the Keyblade War for sure right now. It all depends on who the original wielder of Master Xehanort's Keyblade was, and THAT depends on how Young Xehanort's statement about said Keyblade being the most ancient Keyblade in existence is to be taken. That Keyblade, along with Xehanort's own curiosity and his future self, is what led our main antagonist down his path. It's worth noting, though, that while the sixth Foreteller being the mastermind would have a lot of Apprentice Xehanort parallels, the Master of Master would have more parallels with MASTER Xehanort. That tells me it could very well be both of them working together in some way.

I honestly hope the sixth apprentice/the Master of Masters (which one was the original wielder of Xehanort's Keyblade) isn't Xehanort's original incarnation or something. No doubt there's likely a connection between them, but that connection doesn't need to be reincarnation. The Goat-blade remained "alive" while the other Foreteller Keyblades presumably vanished for a reason, and not to become Xehanort's evidently since it's not the one he started with.

I think Chirthy being a Dream Eater in a realm where Heartless exist is a little less complicated than I've seen people make it out to be. The Master of Masters made him, so he was probably made from the same kind of Darkness as the Dream Eaters of the Realm of Sleep.

The imitation worlds in [chi], according to Ephemera, were made by the Book(s) of Phrophecies. How they're gathering light from the current one World through them... Good question. My guess is that the light from the Heartless in [chi] is PROBABLY from the hearts they've taken, but I could be proven wrong.

 

[Anagram]

The more I think about it the more I get the feeling that making those parallels in between several "generations" of major characters is a sort of "tick" Nomura has just like the need to make everything "surprising". Both can help the work if used in the right doses, but overdoing it can quite hurt it.
Having a cast with several copies/clones whatever can be done well, but ONLY when each copy gets enough coverage and attention so that the audience can differentiate the characters by things other than appearance. This leads again back to Star Wars, but there they did it mostly right as in the CGI-TV series "The Clone Wars" there are several episodes who focus on individual groups of the titular Clone Troopers and despite all looking the same, several of them develop unique personalities and quirks. In fact, most of the Jedi encourage them to build an own individualty as despite being clones they're still living individuals.
As for Nomura's reaction to Aqua's popularity, I'm not sure but this could also be at least partly general difference of culture between Japan and the rest of the world.
It does make one wonder nonetheless though as while Nomura was still only involved with Final Fantasy as a character designer, he had to create very diverse casts with very few clones among them.
Ephemera luckily seems to be not totally based on any known character so far, despite the silver hair.

Sadly I think this "tick" is just as damaging as his need to "surprise" people with things they see coming years ahead. It was fine when you just had Roxas as it made sense with the mythology of Nobodies but now? Replicas? Random blonde boys you encounter the day your born? That blonde kids darkness? Yeah your just taking it too far at that point.

Nomuras shock to Aquas popularity, I'd say, is a mix of cultural difference, her being a female that actually does something in the series, and actually being a character that's both not a clone nor having any in a series of nothing but "Sora's & Xehanort's, Riku and Axel".
It's because of his final fantasy designer background that baffles me over so many in his own series being nearly identical visually or feature wise. (only differing in hair or hair color at times)

Haha You say that now but just wait, Euphemia will be proto-nort.

Good point, the "divine" or gods can sometimes even be vastly bigger jerkasses than humanity.
If the X-blade's occurrence was truly natural, I wonder where the knowledge to make copies of it in its image came from. At least one sentient being needs to have seen it (the original) at least once for this to work.

lol To the point that many of mans own idiocies or ass behavior is because of their gods~
I'd say that's were our 'master of masters' eyes come into play. If he can see the future then he could likely see images of a time when the Xblade is found and used. Or it's possible he and his apprentices came across it by chance in some way. Or maybe in accordance with the keyblades own nature the Xblade also chose masters.

Ah I see, lol, so we're both not wanting a certain antagonist plot recycled, just a different primary one.
Agreed, although the notion that he/she seemingly "vanishes" after giving the copies of the book to the Foretellers makes me feel uneasy even more.
Depending on if the disappearance was voluntary or not we might already get a hint on the nature of this entity as I cannot really imagine a caring Master with good intentions leaving his pupils alone with a prophecy about Armageddon in their hands completely without guidance.
It's likely the Foretellers do not have the "eye to see the future" themselves so them being left alone with handling all the things just screams for one or more of them going bonkers under the pressure and do something stupid.

Seems reasonable. So that means if it was truly ripped from the original book and it was not the Grand Master him/herself who removed it, it still needs to be someone who knows where that book is kept and who is allowed to enter that location, which could apply to both the "traitor" Foreteller as well as the ominuous Sixth Apprentice (as I doubt that the Grand Master's cleaning lady would get up and damage the property of her employer).

Yep, that's more around the setup I was thinking about. While they have the same end goal, the Foretellers cannot agree on the most effective method and yet there's much pressure because the fate of the entire world is at stake.
In such an environment I could imagine that it'd be rather easy for someone good with words and persuasion to subtly sow distrust and discord among the Foretellers, possibly with even more than one to work towards an escalation that causes so much ruckus so the last remnants of trust between them are destroyed.

I think a good portion of us are tired or recycled ideas haha.
His "disappearance" can only be either voluntary or involuntary. Stating the obvious I know but when you say it you realize it leaves limited outcomes to why he disappeared. Foul play could be his own machinations or another's. In turn voluntary would mean he would've had to have had a great reason to see too that required him to leave. The more chi stuff that comes out the more it'll lean to one of the two.
Them relying so much on copied texts says to me they didn't have this foresight.

That's the pitfall when you think about it. There's not just the mystery 6th apprentice but also 5 others that we know nothing about in terms of personality. The master could've also had other allies we know not about.
Another big question to keep in mind is; "If the Foretellers have copies then what became of the original book?"

It's both grounds for a good manipulator and for great stupidity. Even a mere suggestion, whether intended or not, can cause a domino effect in that kinda high stress situation.

Goat-blade is the best term because nearly everyone knows which Keyblade is meant and it's faster to say than "Master Xehanort's Keyblade", *ggg*.
Both are highly possible scenarios due to the similarity between the Goat-blade and the Foreteller ones. It is either part of the same set or the "parent" of the Foreteller ones (which would bring in another eerie parallel to the Lord of the Rings with the Goat-blade being the "Master"-Ring while the Foreteller-blades are the "human"-rings whose bearers in LotR were eventually turned into the Nazgul, servants neither alive nor dead and enslaved to the Master-Ring, always doing its bidding).
I've had that Grand Master/Ansem the Wise parallel in mind as well for some time, especially since there being five apprentices with an odd sixth one being true for both of them as well as the fact there's one initial traitor (one Foreteller/Braig) and the sixth one (unknown/Xehanort) may turn out to be very dangerous.

The contradicting legends of the Keyblade actually reinforce the whole issue, as in the "normal" galactic populace the Clone Troopers were also either regarded as valiant defenders of order and peace who help the Jedi to protect the Republic or as a juggernaut of destruction which helped paving the way for the oppression and tyranny of the Empire into which the Republic was transformed. Which interpretation is dominant depends on where in the galaxy you are and where the majority of loyalty of a particular planet lies.

Indeed, apart from the question what flowerboy Ephemera really is, the 6th and the Grand Master are arguably the most intriguing characters of the chi-era.

lol Then Goat-blade it is!
Going along this route it's also possible he made the goat-blade but realizing he'd made an error seals it. Kinda reflecting the KH3 trailer with it being hung on a wall which implies Xehanort took it. Someone else perhaps stole it from the master originally. The 'foreteller set' may have been a more improved process post goat-blade creation or perhaps ones he made to combat the goat-blade once he realized it was stolen.
The goat-bale can be the oldest but that makes it likely to be no ones keyblade just as likely as it makes it either the 6ths or the Masters.

 

[ShardofTruth]

In my opinion accounting the similarities between those two sets of characters and events on something as the rebirth theory is thinking too rigid, it all falls in the same old "time repeats itself because of reasons" category, a theme Kingdom Hearts hasn't explored or even only pointed at yet.
On the other hand we've seen similar scenarios before, the most obvious being the character trio constellations.

Seeing future events, something the master of masters can do, is an extremely powerful talent. So maybe he is exploring certain scenarios, even repeating them to some extent, to search for a solution (aka Sora being Sora) to an unavoidable dilemma.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Sadly I think this "tick" is just as damaging as his need to "surprise" people with things they see coming years ahead. It was fine when you just had Roxas as it made sense with the mythology of Nobodies but now? Replicas? Random blonde boys you encounter the day your born? That blonde kids darkness? Yeah your just taking it too far at that point.

Nomuras shock to Aquas popularity, I'd say, is a mix of cultural difference, her being a female that actually does something in the series, and actually being a character that's both not a clone nor having any in a series of nothing but "Sora's & Xehanort's, Riku and Axel".
It's because of his final fantasy designer background that baffles me over so many in his own series being nearly identical visually or feature wise. (only differing in hair or hair color at times).

Haha You say that now but just wait, Euphemia will be proto-nort.

To be honest I find the "surprise"-tick still worse as it can (and has) mucked up the whole narrative, while the "parallels"-tick just can result in eventual minor annoyance if used too often.
As for this "mythology" of Nobodies, I don't recall that ever being an official thing. As far as I remember the notion that Nobodies look "slightly" different to their original personas was only a widely consensus made from fan-interpretations before the release of KH 2 Final Mix (which gave the very first look on Ventus' appearance).

The main reason why I'm lenient with Nomura on the Sora/Roxas/Ven-issue is because he had that one already planned since KH 2, the very first title which prominently featured Roxas. According to him he always knew that Ventus should look like either Roxas or Sora, but he wasn't sure with which variant to go, only finalizing the decision when they were making KH 2 FM. Had he decided otherwise, we would probably have Ven now as a blond-haired Sora while Vanitas would be a black-haired Roxas, not really much of a difference, eh?
KH's big theme has always been the heart and the connections made by/with it, and Nomura chose to portray the (literal) closest connections with the visual cue/stylistic device of physical appearance.
I'm drawing a line here with the Foretellers though because not only are they from so far into the past that it isn't really logical for Sora (or any of our established main characters) to have such an literal close heart connection with them that makes them sharing appearance feasible nor is the notion of the same heart (aka the heart of a Foreteller) being reincarnated as a new being truly compatible with the notion that hearts can be born and grown everywhere when the circumstances are right. So why would Sora, Mickey, Naminé, Roxas, Xion and countless others get to have an original, own heart, but just Kairi, Riku, Ventus, Aqua and Terra get "recycled" hearts that originally belonged to someone else?

Heh, the point "she's a female that does something" is actually one I personally don't understand. Why would he be shocked about that? An active female character is nothing new in fictional works, is it? It's also not like she's totally exempt from the whole parallels and connection-web as she does have tight connections to Ven and Terra as well as being considered a comrade/friend to Mickey (which is something where she actually parallels Riku rather than Kairi, her "designated" parallel).
Axel/Lea is in sofar an interesting case in that he's both a fan- and staff-favorite, which probably played more than a minor role in his ascendancy from major villain/anti-villain (CoM) over important support character (Days/KH 2) up to main character (DDD).

Well yeah, Ephemera does have quite a curious streak about him, but I'm still hoping that this is merely a parallel to Xehanort rather than actually designating him as ancestor-nort.
The combination silver hair/green-blue eyes could also hint at something Rikuish though while Ephemera's apparent fondness for having friends is something more Sora/Ventus-like...;P

lol To the point that many of mans own idiocies or ass behavior is because of their gods~
I'd say that's were our 'master of masters' eyes come into play. If he can see the future then he could likely see images of a time when the Xblade is found and used. Or it's possible he and his apprentices came across it by chance in some way. Or maybe in accordance with the keyblades own nature the Xblade also chose masters.


I think a good portion of us are tired or recycled ideas haha.
His "disappearance" can only be either voluntary or involuntary. Stating the obvious I know but when you say it you realize it leaves limited outcomes to why he disappeared. Foul play could be his own machinations or another's. In turn voluntary would mean he would've had to have had a great reason to see too that required him to leave. The more chi stuff that comes out the more it'll lean to one of the two.
Them relying so much on copied texts says to me they didn't have this foresight.

That's the pitfall when you think about it. There's not just the mystery 6th apprentice but also 5 others that we know nothing about in terms of personality. The master could've also had other allies we know not about.
Another big question to keep in mind is; "If the Foretellers have copies then what became of the original book?"

It's both grounds for a good manipulator and for great stupidity. Even a mere suggestion, whether intended or not, can cause a domino effect in that kinda high stress situation.

Yea, that and in some cases that certain idiotic behaviour is believed by man to get them favour with some of the aforementioned god, such as i.e. waging war to suck up to Ares (greek) or Mars (roman) being just one of countless examples where humanity manages to do shitty things because they believe it might please some divine entity.
These are all valid possibilities, although the X-blade itself choosing a master might be certainly the most intriguing one.

I'm normally pretty lenient on the prospect of recycling an idea, but there is a limit on how often you can recycle the same stuff in the same arc/saga before it gets stale.
On this aspect the "Grand Master" has actually some similarities to Isa out of all characters, since like him he/she is still open to fall into several already established character categories, but can also take a middle ground between already established archetypes.
Agreed, with such foresight available to them they also would have no need to make such a fuss over a missing page.

X[chi] back cover is shaping up to be an intriguing experience with all of these open questions.

Indeed, then lift possible hot-blooded personalities among the Foretellers, some overreactions and possible poor communication skills on top (Ava did mention to Ephemera that she's the easiest one to approach among them) and you have things escalating into conflict pretty fast. From there, it won't take long for outright outbreak of war especially when there gets also propaganda around where one or more unions get effectively denounced and demonized regardless of the actual truth.

lol Then Goat-blade it is!
Going along this route it's also possible he made the goat-blade but realizing he'd made an error seals it. Kinda reflecting the KH3 trailer with it being hung on a wall which implies Xehanort took it. Someone else perhaps stole it from the master originally. The 'foreteller set' may have been a more improved process post goat-blade creation or perhaps ones he made to combat the goat-blade once he realized it was stolen.
The goat-bale can be the oldest but that makes it likely to be no ones keyblade just as likely as it makes it either the 6ths or the Masters.

Good Idea. The Goat-blade might be the flawed prototype...heck it might even be flawed in the first place because someone nabbed it from the Master before it was completely finished.
Like, maybe the Grand Master wanted to introduce some seals/checks to its power but the blade was stolen before he/she could actually apply those to it.

 

[Anagram]

To be honest I find the "surprise"-tick still worse as it can (and has) mucked up the whole narrative, while the "parallels"-tick just can result in eventual minor annoyance if used too often.
As for this "mythology" of Nobodies, I don't recall that ever being an official thing. As far as I remember the notion that Nobodies look "slightly" different to their original personas was only a widely consensus made from fan-interpretations before the release of KH 2 Final Mix (which gave the very first look on Ventus' appearance).

Oh there's no doubt the surprise tick is still worse given how it's shaped things.
Last I recall that appearance but was stated in the game somewhere or some bygone quote. Either way the near identical appearances in game mean more than anything. That may be a topic for another day though. (doesn't like the nobody concept enough to ponder it further)

The main reason why I'm lenient with Nomura on the Sora/Roxas/Ven-issue is because he had that one already planned since KH 2, the very first title which prominently featured Roxas. According to him he always knew that Ventus should look like either Roxas or Sora, but he wasn't sure with which variant to go, only finalizing the decision when they were making KH 2 FM. Had he decided otherwise, we would probably have Ven now as a blond-haired Sora while Vanitas would be a black-haired Roxas, not really much of a difference, eh?
KH's big theme has always been the heart and the connections made by/with it, and Nomura chose to portray the (literal) closest connections with the visual cue/stylistic device of physical appearance.
I'm drawing a line here with the Foretellers though because not only are they from so far into the past that it isn't really logical for Sora (or any of our established main characters) to have such an literal close heart connection with them that makes them sharing appearance feasible nor is the notion of the same heart (aka the heart of a Foreteller) being reincarnated as a new being truly compatible with the notion that hearts can be born and grown everywhere when the circumstances are right. So why would Sora, Mickey, Naminé, Roxas, Xion and countless others get to have an original, own heart, but just Kairi, Riku, Ventus, Aqua and Terra get "recycled" hearts that originally belonged to someone else?

I still can't get behind the Sora-Ven-Roxas issue. It feels lazy or unneeded to me. He could've at least gave Ven a different hair color or something so that so many of his fans didn't think Roxas=Ven.
Preachin to the querier sir. As good as that theory is I don't like nor want to see continual cloning. Especially if cloning is what he thinks will make us care about these characters like older ones.

Heh, the point "she's a female that does something" is actually one I personally don't understand. Why would he be shocked about that? An active female character is nothing new in fictional works, is it? It's also not like she's totally exempt from the whole parallels and connection-web as she does have tight connections to Ven and Terra as well as being considered a comrade/friend to Mickey (which is something where she actually parallels Riku rather than Kairi, her "designated" parallel).
Axel/Lea is in sofar an interesting case in that he's both a fan- and staff-favorite, which probably played more than a minor role in his ascendancy from major villain/anti-villain (CoM) over important support character (Days/KH 2) up to main character (DDD).

Ha sir that's like asking why he'd be so shocked a character that isn't a clone nor has any (Aqua) would be popular. His use of Kairi and Namine, or lack of, and the overall male casting to me says he's not sure how to use female characters making Aqua a type of experiment. He's likely shocked at its success.
Not to make it sound like some feminist jargon. But I could see shock if someone doesn't know how to use female characters.
Axel is the biggest case of fanservice in recent years. lol

Well yeah, Ephemera does have quite a curious streak about him, but I'm still hoping that this is merely a parallel to Xehanort rather than actually designating him as ancestor-nort.
The combination silver hair/green-blue eyes could also hint at something Rikuish though while Ephemera's apparent fondness for having friends is something more Sora/Ventus-like...;P

Yea, that and in some cases that certain idiotic behaviour is believed by man to get them favour with some of the aforementioned god, such as i.e. waging war to suck up to Ares (greek) or Mars (roman) being just one of countless examples where humanity manages to do shitty things because they believe it might please some divine entity.
These are all valid possibilities, although the X-blade itself choosing a master might be certainly the most intriguing one.

I'm normally pretty lenient on the prospect of recycling an idea, but there is a limit on how often you can recycle the same stuff in the same arc/saga before it gets stale.
On this aspect the "Grand Master" has actually some similarities to Isa out of all characters, since like him he/she is still open to fall into several already established character categories, but can also take a middle ground between already established archetypes.
Agreed, with such foresight available to them they also would have no need to make such a fuss over a missing page.

X[chi] back cover is shaping up to be an intriguing experience with all of these open questions.

Think so? The idea came to me since normal Keyblades choose people and they're copies so that could be something the Xblade also does.
Recycling can't be avoided in long term but what bothers me is the proximity it has in this story. It's nearly at every turn rather than spaced out. When it's spaced out it can be nostalgic but when spammed it's just annoying and off putting.
Assuming that Nomura will answer questions for once rather than the standard answer one leave three. It'll be neat to see their perspective in Black Cover regardless.

Indeed, then lift possible hot-blooded personalities among the Foretellers, some overreactions and possible poor communication skills on top (Ava did mention to Ephemera that she's the easiest one to approach among them) and you have things escalating into conflict pretty fast. From there, it won't take long for outright outbreak of war especially when there gets also propaganda around where one or more unions get effectively denounced and demonized regardless of the actual truth.

Good Idea. The Goat-blade might be the flawed prototype...heck it might even be flawed in the first place because someone nabbed it from the Master before it was completely finished.
Like, maybe the Grand Master wanted to introduce some seals/checks to its power but the blade was stolen before he/she could actually apply those to it.

It'd be kinda funny if Ava was the only sensible one haha. Such cases personalities would make you also question the master further for choosing such unstable personalities as students.

Also possible. You could also add possibilities of the flawed Goatblade be notified post theft to be imprinted with its owners will or such. (to explain Xehanort)

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Oh there's no doubt the surprise tick is still worse given how it's shaped things.
Last I recall that appearance but was stated in the game somewhere or some bygone quote. Either way the near identical appearances in game mean more than anything. That may be a topic for another day though. (doesn't like the nobody concept enough to ponder it further)

On this note I have the small wish in the back of my head that Nomura might turn to Sakaguchi again for advice and that then Sakaguchi would advise him that while complexity is good and needed to a degree, one shouldn't go overboard with some concepts by using them more than five times in a single story.
Since all the KH games so far essentially do tell a single story in several stages, the notion that Nomura took the initial advice too literally is plainly clear.

I certainly don't remember it, although on some level I do agree that it would maybe have been better if this whole "Nobody"-shit had never been invented in the first place. All the characters of the Organisation, including Roxas, should have been full characters of their own instead of "rip-offs" from other characters.

I still can't get behind the Sora-Ven-Roxas issue. It feels lazy or unneeded to me. He could've at least gave Ven a different hair color or something so that so many of his fans didn't think Roxas=Ven.
Preachin to the querier sir. As good as that theory is I don't like nor want to see continual cloning. Especially if cloning is what he thinks will make us care about these characters like older ones.


Ha sir that's like asking why he'd be so shocked a character that isn't a clone nor has any (Aqua) would be popular. His use of Kairi and Namine, or lack of, and the overall male casting to me says he's not sure how to use female characters making Aqua a type of experiment. He's likely shocked at its success.
Not to make it sound like some feminist jargon. But I could see shock if someone doesn't know how to use female characters.
Axel is the biggest case of fanservice in recent years. lol

Roxas' blond hair had to come from somewhere though as Sora is undeniably a brunette and always was, which actually shows in Roxas having brown eyebrows as a callback to the fact that he actually comes primarily from Sora. Then again though, they do manage to get a decent color-contrast going with Sora and Vanitas in hair-, eye- and skin-color, so for the sake of simplicity there probably should have been at least one distinct physical difference between Roxas and Ven that goes beyond eyebrow-color.
That being said though, only dumbasses or those who didn't play/paid attention to BBS think Roxas=Ven. It has been made clear more than once that they are two different individuals and people weirdly do not seem to have any issue regarding this when it comes to Riku and the Riku Replica despite it being explicitly stated that the Replica was made from some data collected from the real Riku.

Right on spot.
That theory certainly has its merits, what irks me most though is that some people already seem to regard it as almost-facts and actually use it to try and shoot down other theories. The fact that it proposes another set of "clones" comes then on top of this.
If I care about a character or not is not totally up to appearance or connections with established characters, but to how he/she fits into the existing setting and what their personality/motivations are.

I don't deny that being the case, yet it is still dumb. Including an interesting, well-rounded female character should not be something special snow-flakey but something that is done parallel and in the same vein as it is done with any male character.
If Nomura isn't sure how to properly introduce or use a female character, he should get an actual female advisor/confidant on his team who can aid with planning out a scenario for such a character.
Amano does the female characters in the manga version pretty well for example.
Not all of feminist jargon is wrong, although some demands really seem to get blown out of proportion (like complaining about the main party in FF XV being an all-male cast, FF X-2 also had an all-female cast), quite a chunk of the complaints are spot on and valid.
Definitely, the sheer increase of Axel's role during the series the further it goes clearly demonstrates this. It is almost an inverse progress to Kairi as the more the series goes on, Kairi sinks more and more into obscurity while Axel/Lea's role keeps increasing with every entry.
To be honest though, while you may be largely indifferent to the BBS cast, I am the same when it comes to Axel/Lea. I don't mind him, but he's certainly not that interesting or super-cool like the hype makes him out to be.

Think so? The idea came to me since normal Keyblades choose people and they're copies so that could be something the Xblade also does.
Recycling can't be avoided in long term but what bothers me is the proximity it has in this story. It's nearly at every turn rather than spaced out. When it's spaced out it can be nostalgic but when spammed it's just annoying and off putting.
Assuming that Nomura will answer questions for once rather than the standard answer one leave three. It'll be neat to see their perspective in Black Cover regardless.


It'd be kinda funny if Ava was the only sensible one haha. Such cases personalities would make you also question the master further for choosing such unstable personalities as students.

Also possible. You could also add possibilities of the flawed Goatblade be notified post theft to be imprinted with its owners will or such. (to explain Xehanort)

Yea, that's one viable possibility. Keyblades are said to be picky, so I would imagine the X-blade being very picky. Imagine Xehanort finally getting his hands on it and the thing giving him an literal middle finger by teleporting out of his hand, essentially saying "why would I entrust someone who treats other hearts as dirt with my power, screw off you old fart!"
Overusing stuff in short order is the biggest problem this series has in general in my view, alongside the issue that introducing new concepts and ideas takes precedence over fleshing out and properly explaining already existing ones.
A ficitional universe with many concepts, procedures and mythology is a nice and rich thing to have, but as with many things it should be quality over quantity. I'd rather have seven fully fleshed out, understandable concepts in such an universe rather than thirteen vague ones that are not only just partly explained but also are capable of making each other redundant or outright contradict each other.

I'm honestly less interested in answered questions and more in getting some impressions on each of the Foretellers and possibly Ephemera. It's hard to theorize with characters you basically know close to nothing about as all we know about them is from hearsay and some arguably "historic" sources.
There's also a small hope that I foster that it might put some dents into the Rebirth-theory so that we may see the Foretellers as actually being characters of their own instead of "Former-life-of-Kairi", "Former-life-of-Riku" and so on.

Yep, imagine the Foretellers bickering and debating in their Tower for hours with Ava just sitting there continuously facepalming before chewing them out for acting like squabbling children in the sandbox. ;P
Who knows, maybe the Grand Master didn't know about the unstable personalities of one or two of them OR their personalities didn't become unstable until the Grand Master vanished?
Personalities becoming unstable might even possibly be a side effect of that vanishing act itself.

That's also a viable possibility. If you can sent a part of a heart into a new body, into Darkness or elsewhere, it should also be possible to seal the part of a heart (or even the whole thing) into a Keyblade.

 

[Anagram]

On this note I have the small wish in the back of my head that Nomura might turn to Sakaguchi again for advice and that then Sakaguchi would advise him that while complexity is good and needed to a degree, one shouldn't go overboard with some concepts by using them more than five times in a single story.
Since all the KH games so far essentially do tell a single story in several stages, the notion that Nomura took the initial advice too literally is plainly clear.

I certainly don't remember it, although on some level I do agree that it would maybe have been better if this whole "Nobody"-shit had never been invented in the first place. All the characters of the Organisation, including Roxas, should have been full characters of their own instead of "rip-offs" from other characters.

Roxas' blond hair had to come from somewhere though as Sora is undeniably a brunette and always was, which actually shows in Roxas having brown eyebrows as a callback to the fact that he actually comes primarily from Sora. Then again though, they do manage to get a decent color-contrast going with Sora and Vanitas in hair-, eye- and skin-color, so for the sake of simplicity there probably should have been at least one distinct physical difference between Roxas and Ven that goes beyond eyebrow-color.
That being said though, only dumbasses or those who didn't play/paid attention to BBS think Roxas=Ven. It has been made clear more than once that they are two different individuals and people weirdly do not seem to have any issue regarding this when it comes to Riku and the Riku Replica despite it being explicitly stated that the Replica was made from some data collected from the real Riku.

Makes ya wonder if it's respectable he took such advice so seriously or just him unsure how to do it any other way.

Kinda surprised you agree but yeah nobodies were one of the first big mistakes. Like the Xblade or ceremonies it sounds good on paper but once in practice it falters. =\

No necessarily. The nobodies are supposed to be different but the same so blonde hair needed no source or reason. Just something to differ. That's all I'm saying, for the sake of simplicity and common sense, at least one feature needed to differ them. =\
Hate to burst you bubble man but even the most intelligent and faithful fans don't know they're different. With a series of convoluted myth and backstory in interviews it's not really fair to call them stupid for it. As far as some know Roxas being Ven is one of those convoluted things they're familiar with.

Right on spot.
That theory certainly has its merits, what irks me most though is that some people already seem to regard it as almost-facts and actually use it to try and shoot down other theories. The fact that it proposes another set of "clones" comes then on top of this.
If I care about a character or not is not totally up to appearance or connections with established characters, but to how he/she fits into the existing setting and what their personality/motivations are.

I don't deny that being the case, yet it is still dumb. Including an interesting, well-rounded female character should not be something special snow-flakey but something that is done parallel and in the same vein as it is done with any male character.
If Nomura isn't sure how to properly introduce or use a female character, he should get an actual female advisor/confidant on his team who can aid with planning out a scenario for such a character.
Amano does the female characters in the manga version pretty well for example.
Not all of feminist jargon is wrong, although some demands really seem to get blown out of proportion (like complaining about the main party in FF XV being an all-male cast, FF X-2 also had an all-female cast), quite a chunk of the complaints are spot on and valid.

Preachin to the flock again man. As much as I miss and like good old grass theories I too do not want yet another set of recycled designs and personalities being passed off as "characters".
A characters value should be use not how much they look/act like another character.

Agreed. I dont mind snow-flaky, the typical role and I certainly love the strong woman characters but I dont mind which route they use them so long as they actually use them in a way that makes them likable. (I do however look down on the damsel in distress troupe since it's vastly overused)
Nomura just lets them fall into obscurity rather figuring out what to do with his female characters.
A female adviser would be good. Or hell just having Amano as a scenario writer would be good. His use of characters is one reason I find the manga series far better than the games at this point. =/

That's the sad thing to me personally. Feminist jargon definitely isn't wrong. Many complaints true down to the dime however it's often taken to far in social media areas. Gives rise to those "justice warriors" anonymity to hide behind and bitch about any old thing. Sometimes getting just as bad as a hate group by attacking anything so long as they can rant. That too may be another topic for another thread though. Dont want any such anonymity fools swarming here because of this topic. (but just in case anyone is reading this thinking they can make a case you best move on I wont respond to you, I see many using the feminist group as an excuse to bitch or rant about anything rather than the actual issues this movement focuses on)

Definitely, the sheer increase of Axel's role during the series the further it goes clearly demonstrates this. It is almost an inverse progress to Kairi as the more the series goes on, Kairi sinks more and more into obscurity while Axel/Lea's role keeps increasing with every entry.
To be honest though, while you may be largely indifferent to the BBS cast, I am the same when it comes to Axel/Lea. I don't mind him, but he's certainly not that interesting or super-cool like the hype makes him out to be.

haha Sir let me tell you now I'm neither a fan nor indifferent to Axel. I'm rather annoyed and dissatisfied with his shoehorned presence based solely on fanservice. I liked his Chain of Memories performance but after that his character lost all interest, especially in Days which ruined it for me entirely.
I'd have liked him if he had stayed dead/gone after his fight with Roxas in KH2.

Yea, that's one viable possibility. Keyblades are said to be picky, so I would imagine the X-blade being very picky. Imagine Xehanort finally getting his hands on it and the thing giving him an literal middle finger by teleporting out of his hand, essentially saying "why would I entrust someone who treats other hearts as dirt with my power, screw off you old fart!"
Overusing stuff in short order is the biggest problem this series has in general in my view, alongside the issue that introducing new concepts and ideas takes precedence over fleshing out and properly explaining already existing ones.
A ficitional universe with many concepts, procedures and mythology is a nice and rich thing to have, but as with many things it should be quality over quantity. I'd rather have seven fully fleshed out, understandable concepts in such an universe rather than thirteen vague ones that are not only just partly explained but also are capable of making each other redundant or outright contradict each other.

haha Now THAT would be a good ending to KH3. Xehanort finally wins only for the Xblade to vanish from his hands like normal keyblades did in KH1 & 2.

Likewise. The oversaturated mythology can be seen when fans can make up not one, not two but three or several alternate ways to do many things in this story without actually altering the story.

I'm honestly less interested in answered questions and more in getting some impressions on each of the Foretellers and possibly Ephemera. It's hard to theorize with characters you basically know close to nothing about as all we know about them is from hearsay and some arguably "historic" sources.
There's also a small hope that I foster that it might put some dents into the Rebirth-theory so that we may see the Foretellers as actually being characters of their own instead of "Former-life-of-Kairi", "Former-life-of-Riku" and so on.

Quite surprising to hear given your obvious love of lores but you are speaking my language right now! I loved the ambiguity of the series earlier years. The stark drop in theory, discussions and even shitty youtube videos since the handhelds and interviews appeared kinda show just how much the process of answering and not answering questions hurt the fanbase. Your old enough to remember the older days I speak of I'm sure. Days when you had flaming but the occasional deep conversation based on interruption and in-game story alone.

Yep, imagine the Foretellers bickering and debating in their Tower for hours with Ava just sitting there continuously facepalming before chewing them out for acting like squabbling children in the sandbox. ;P
Who knows, maybe the Grand Master didn't know about the unstable personalities of one or two of them OR their personalities didn't become unstable until the Grand Master vanished?
Personalities becoming unstable might even possibly be a side effect of that vanishing act itself.

That's also a viable possibility. If you can sent a part of a heart into a new body, into Darkness or elsewhere, it should also be possible to seal the part of a heart (or even the whole thing) into a Keyblade.

Good points as well. If this master was a parental figure or revered then his loss would have a strong affect on minds that relied on his presence. Though usually such personalities aren't to stable to begin with since it's the presence of their most important person that gives the stability.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Makes ya wonder if it's respectable he took such advice so seriously or just him unsure how to do it any other way.

Kinda surprised you agree but yeah nobodies were one of the first big mistakes. Like the Xblade or ceremonies it sounds good on paper but once in practice it falters. =\

No necessarily. The nobodies are supposed to be different but the same so blonde hair needed no source or reason. Just something to differ. That's all I'm saying, for the sake of simplicity and common sense, at least one feature needed to differ them. =\
Hate to burst you bubble man but even the most intelligent and faithful fans don't know they're different. With a series of convoluted myth and backstory in interviews it's not really fair to call them stupid for it. As far as some know Roxas being Ven is one of those convoluted things they're familiar with.

Who knows, but I did read somewhere that Nomura considers Sakaguchi a mentor, so it might be a bit of both. His best friend being Hideo Kojima who with his Metal Gear-series also has some quite complex "bombs" story-wise may also play into this issue.

The level of agreement I am on refers to all the way back to Chain of Memories though, as only when cutting the whole "Nobody"-issue already there it could work in a different way that maybe would do all these characters, Roxas included, better justice.
It is one thing that really annoys me about Nomura sometimes that he introduces potentially interesting characters only to inflict a horrible fate possibly worse than death already in the same entry they're introduced or in the next one on them.
Since we already know the ultimate outcome of the era x[chi] is set in, this to 99.9% holds true for the Foretellers and Ephemera as well.
With such a general approach, it is no wonder that the series' story practically has to resort to revivals in order to make more (and possibly better) use of a whole bunch of characters.

Strictly spoken there is a physical feature to differentiate in their different colored eyebrows, but apparently that isn't distinct enough for some people.
To be honest I don't see much of a bubble here, lol. When I stroll around other parts of the net, especially outside of informed fan forums, I often get to see people claiming them to be the same corrected one or two comments/posts later. Even in (figurative) hell-holes like Youtube comments the memo seems to have finally spread a little.
The thing is you don't even need backstory from interviews to confirm that one, scenes from several of the games and some journal notes are enough to get it across. You do not even need to be overly intelligent to see that they are two distinct individuals, the only requirement is to not get fooled by the physical appearance. Not to mention that the Kingdom Hearts series is certainly not the first fictional work which has two nearly identical looking characters who are not one and the same.

Preachin to the flock again man. As much as I miss and like good old grass theories I too do not want yet another set of recycled designs and personalities being passed off as "characters".
A characters value should be use not how much they look/act like another character.

Agreed. I dont mind snow-flaky, the typical role and I certainly love the strong woman characters but I dont mind which route they use them so long as they actually use them in a way that makes them likable. (I do however look down on the damsel in distress troupe since it's vastly overused)
Nomura just lets them fall into obscurity rather figuring out what to do with his female characters.
A female adviser would be good. Or hell just having Amano as a scenario writer would be good. His use of characters is one reason I find the manga series far better than the games at this point. =/

That's the sad thing to me personally. Feminist jargon definitely isn't wrong. Many complaints true down to the dime however it's often taken to far in social media areas. Gives rise to those "justice warriors" anonymity to hide behind and bitch about any old thing. Sometimes getting just as bad as a hate group by attacking anything so long as they can rant. That too may be another topic for another thread though. Dont want any such anonymity fools swarming here because of this topic. (but just in case anyone is reading this thinking they can make a case you best move on I wont respond to you, I see many using the feminist group as an excuse to bitch or rant about anything rather than the actual issues this movement focuses on)


haha Sir let me tell you now I'm neither a fan nor indifferent to Axel. I'm rather annoyed and dissatisfied with his shoehorned presence based solely on fanservice. I liked his Chain of Memories performance but after that his character lost all interest, especially in Days which ruined it for me entirely.
I'd have liked him if he had stayed dead/gone after his fight with Roxas in KH2.

If I'm completely honest at the start I didn't want to have any new characters at all. We had a sound premise and a big cast of characters to work with already. Coded, Blank Points and DDD have delivered enough material that if used creatively could have resulted in an engaging story for KH III.
Since we have to deal with at least five (eight if you also count Grand Master, 6th student and Ephemera) new characters though, they should certainly have a bigger impact than the next "Attack of the Clones". I may be more lenient/patient on this general issue than you, but even I have my limits, lol.

Going with that I have to say, despite all my hatred for her when considering personality and traits, I think Larxene was a female character done relatively well in terms of using her effectively. She's by no means likeable in the normal sense, but in terms of how effectively evil she comes over I'd say she rivals Xehanort himself.
Yep, the damsel-trope gets even more annoying when it is always the same character who has to fill it.
Sad but true, Aqua and Naminé (to an extent as her role is practically also a glorified Ms. Exposition) are so far the only original females who haven't fallen into total obscurity.

Amano would do wonders for the story pacing and characterisations in the series, I agree.
The written works, meaning both the manga and novels, seem to generally outclass the games in both characterisation and story pacing, making me wonder if it is possibly a problem of the medium with KH specifically.

It seems to be a general problem of humanity that we tend to blow everything into extremes and go too far. Once one extreme is made unacceptable by the larger society, people tend to fall fast into the opposite extreme causing even more damage instead of choosing a healthy and probably working middle way.
Right, better we drop that topic, lol.

I'm mostly indifferent towards him because a) ranting or being annoyed doesn' t help, is thus wasted energy and b) there might still be some of those great character moments (of which Audo posted so many examples in that one DDD thread) in store with him involved.

haha Now THAT would be a good ending to KH3. Xehanort finally wins only for the Xblade to vanish from his hands like normal keyblades did in KH1 & 2.

Likewise. The oversaturated mythology can be seen when fans can make up not one, not two but three or several alternate ways to do many things in this story without actually altering the story.


Quite surprising to hear given your obvious love of lores but you are speaking my language right now! I loved the ambiguity of the series earlier years. The stark drop in theory, discussions and even shitty youtube videos since the handhelds and interviews appeared kinda show just how much the process of answering and not answering questions hurt the fanbase. Your old enough to remember the older days I speak of I'm sure. Days when you had flaming but the occasional deep conversation based on interruption and in-game story alone.

Yep, and bonus points if the entire cast good and evil alike makes very stupid "I'm baffled" faces when it happens. I'm thinking along the faces made by Donald, Goofy and Yen Sid when Lea suddenly summons his Keyblade. The "Whaaaaaat!?" is optional.
Of course Xehanort's expression would be the most hilarious one.

Indeed, that's the sign of a mythology with more blank points (no pun intended)/holes in it than swiss cheese. It's like building the foundation walls of a building, but then instead of finishing the building you build the foundation walls of another building right beside the first one leaving both unfinished.

Oh, I do love the lore and mythology, but in the current situation we already have enough material on the lore and mythology of the x[chi]-era to start theorizing. What's missing is some "color" to the central characters of that era as they're up to now all more or less bland cardboard cutouts. Even Ephemera, who we saw more than once already, is still rather mysterious and we get only glimpses of his personality and possible worldviews. In order to make some profound theories that also have a factual base to go with, we need some info about both the lore and the characters, yet not so much that we can already deduce more than 60% of the whole scenario. x[chi] is so far severely lacking on the characters-part of that mix. Drop in theories can also come from the fact when some basic info you need to properly theorize is missing. There's a difference between theorizing and just making shots into the blue.
Certainly I remember those days, as I also vividly remember wanting to pull some of my hairs out at some outright stupid theories that were made in those days due to some rather "unconventional" personal interpretations/headcanons.
Therefore on this issue, I'm actually glad that some questions do get answered. It is the way how it is done which grinds my gears.

Good points as well. If this master was a parental figure or revered then his loss would have a strong affect on minds that relied on his presence. Though usually such personalities aren't to stable to begin with since it's the presence of their most important person that gives the stability.

Indeed, yet we do not know why the Grand Master took in apprentices to begin with. The initial premise might not have been to train them into battle masters and/or lay the burden on them to try and prevent the Apocalypse, so one or more of the Foretellers having an innate unstable personality might have been not of much concern in the beginning.
Of course, if we assume the other way around and suspect the Grand Master to be a shady figure, he/she might have chosen some unstable beings on purpose.

 

[Anagram]

Who knows, but I did read somewhere that Nomura considers Sakaguchi a mentor, so it might be a bit of both. His best friend being Hideo Kojima who with his Metal Gear-series also has some quite complex "bombs" story-wise may also play into this issue.

He should take advice from Kojoma since he does complexity right. lol

Strictly spoken there is a physical feature to differentiate in their different colored eyebrows, but apparently that isn't distinct enough for some people.
To be honest I don't see much of a bubble here, lol. When I stroll around other parts of the net, especially outside of informed fan forums, I often get to see people claiming them to be the same corrected one or two comments/posts later. Even in (figurative) hell-holes like Youtube comments the memo seems to have finally spread a little.
The thing is you don't even need backstory from interviews to confirm that one, scenes from several of the games and some journal notes are enough to get it across. You do not even need to be overly intelligent to see that they are two distinct individuals, the only requirement is to not get fooled by the physical appearance. Not to mention that the Kingdom Hearts series is certainly not the first fictional work which has two nearly identical looking characters who are not one and the same.

Dude don't be one of those guys. A feature you can only see by close up comparison of their two models hardly counts as a true distinguishing feature. Especially when those eyebrows look the same from the games typical zoomed out camera outside cutscenes. Something to distinguish, if your gonna bother making a differing feature, should be noticeable immediately like Vanitas black hair. So it not being "distinct enough" is perfectly reasonable.

It's true they should notice the different personalities better after Days and let's be fair here. Most of those other series with identical characters do it better and in a way you know immediately.

If I'm completely honest at the start I didn't want to have any new characters at all. We had a sound premise and a big cast of characters to work with already. Coded, Blank Points and DDD have delivered enough material that if used creatively could have resulted in an engaging story for KH III.
Since we have to deal with at least five (eight if you also count Grand Master, 6th student and Ephemera) new characters though, they should certainly have a bigger impact than the next "Attack of the Clones". I may be more lenient/patient on this general issue than you, but even I have my limits, lol.

Seems your reaching your limit. lol
Not having "new"/clone characters would've been nice.

Going with that I have to say, despite all my hatred for her when considering personality and traits, I think Larxene was a female character done relatively well in terms of using her effectively. She's by no means likeable in the normal sense, but in terms of how effectively evil she comes over I'd say she rivals Xehanort himself.
Yep, the damsel-trope gets even more annoying when it is always the same character who has to fill it.
Sad but true, Aqua and Naminé (to an extent as her role is practically also a glorified Ms. Exposition) are so far the only original females who haven't fallen into total obscurity.

I hate Larxene but as it stands now I find her and Marluxia the best villains we've had solely because they was just them, simple motives and wrapped in a good plot of triple agents and betrayal. But mostly because they're not a freakin Xehaort or part of his "it was all meeeee!!!!" plot.

I'm mostly indifferent towards him because a) ranting or being annoyed doesn' t help, is thus wasted energy and b) there might still be some of those great character moments (of which Audo posted so many examples in that one DDD thread) in store with him involved.

I disagree, ranting helps vent things that shouldn't be bottled~ Shouldn't rant to much though since it's just bitching at that point.
Ehhh I've never considered anything Axel did great character moments after CoM.

Oh, I do love the lore and mythology, but in the current situation we already have enough material on the lore and mythology of the x[chi]-era to start theorizing. What's missing is some "color" to the central characters of that era as they're up to now all more or less bland cardboard cutouts. Even Ephemera, who we saw more than once already, is still rather mysterious and we get only glimpses of his personality and possible worldviews. In order to make some profound theories that also have a factual base to go with, we need some info about both the lore and the characters, yet not so much that we can already deduce more than 60% of the whole scenario. x[chi] is so far severely lacking on the characters-part of that mix. Drop in theories can also come from the fact when some basic info you need to properly theorize is missing. There's a difference between theorizing and just making shots into the blue.
Certainly I remember those days, as I also vividly remember wanting to pull some of my hairs out at some outright stupid theories that were made in those days due to some rather "unconventional" personal interpretations/headcanons.
Therefore on this issue, I'm actually glad that some questions do get answered. It is the way how it is done which grinds my gears.

Deducing the scenario, a problem since KH2FM when the entire Ven-Roxas Terra>Xehanort plot was figured out. haha
Some answers should definitly always be given but sadly if you answer to many or answer things that don't need them, outside the actual medium itself at that, then you just develop a messed up and overly layered mythology like it has now.
Gotta leave some things to discuss ya know?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

He should take advice from Kojoma since he does complexity right. lol

I have to take these words at face value as I'm not familiar with the Metal Gear series beyond some character names and the fact that the story is known to be very complex with many twists.

Dude don't be one of those guys. A feature you can only see by close up comparison of their two models hardly counts as a true distinguishing feature. Especially when those eyebrows look the same from the games typical zoomed out camera outside cutscenes. Something to distinguish, if your gonna bother making a differing feature, should be noticeable immediately like Vanitas black hair. So it not being "distinct enough" is perfectly reasonable.

It's true they should notice the different personalities better after Days and let's be fair here. Most of those other series with identical characters do it better and in a way you know immediately.

I guess I have then just to concur on that one as my view might be more unique due to me probably being handicapped from spending several years with actual identical twins in the same school class. In a situation like that you simply learn to look for small distinguishing traits rather than distinct ones over time, which may be why I have noticeable less issues with this than others as well as some difficulties to understand why some people make such a fuss about it.

The differences should actually already been clear with just BBS, lol, at least that was originally planned as this bit from a Famitsu-interview from 2007 shows:

Moreover, what about the mystery surrounding the existence of Ven and Roxas?
These are keys that will be revealed from playing Birth By Sleep. You will be able to separate Ven from Roxas with ease;

Apparently BBS failed to truly do that in a definite manner or these "problems" wouldn't exist. <__<

Seems your reaching your limit. lol
Not having "new"/clone characters would've been nice.


I hate Larxene but as it stands now I find her and Marluxia the best villains we've had solely because they was just them, simple motives and wrapped in a good plot of triple agents and betrayal. But mostly because they're not a freakin Xehaort or part of his "it was all meeeee!!!!" plot.

Apparently, lol.
Well, there is still hope yet that the Foretellers and Ephemera won't be clones at all despite extremely popular theories which hint at that.

True dat, I'm also willing to make a case for Master Xehanort, Ansem SoD and Xemnas as good villains if their plans and schemes in BBS, KH I and KH II are viewed separately, which was still possible until the advent of DDD.
I'm curious though what they will do with and for Aqua in this new episode. With that, they have a chance to not only flesh out a female character more but also to give some more substance for one third of the woefully underused BBS-trio. That Terra and Ven can't receive the same opportunity is kinda logical considering their "status" at the time BBS 0.2 takes place, but I have hope yet that they get "polished" somewhat better in KH III itself as well.

I disagree, ranting helps vent things that shouldn't be bottled~ Shouldn't rant to much though since it's just bitching at that point.
Ehhh I've never considered anything Axel did great character moments after CoM.


Deducing the scenario, a problem since KH2FM when the entire Ven-Roxas Terra>Xehanort plot was figured out. haha
Some answers should definitly always be given but sadly if you answer to many or answer things that don't need them, outside the actual medium itself at that, then you just develop a messed up and overly layered mythology like it has now.
Gotta leave some things to discuss ya know?

While I agree that one should not bottle things that bother oneself, I direct that one more towards serious RL problems rather than some misgivings about something that is supposed to be no more than a piece of entertainment. If I couldn't live with KH's flaws I would have abandoned the series long ago.
Heh, I'm pretty sure among Audo's examples were quite some involving him as well.

Granted, that was also fostered by most of the BBS trailers not only being way too long but also way too story-heavy. I still remember the early BBS-Trailers which almost exclusively used Fate of the Unknown as background music until at some point the very first new music piece revealed for BBS was a trailer that used Ven's character theme (of course back then no one knew that it actually is Ven's theme). At that point the cutscene snippets and conversation pieces increased nearly to an insane degree.
That the way how it is done is absolute bullshit to phrase it harshly I think isn't really that contested anymore, however which things need answers and which not is an issue of personal interpretation. Anyone of us and the creators as well might designate something different as not needing of an answer.
Things and concepts on which new titles are slated to expand upon also simply cannot be left open for discussion anymore in 9 of 10 cases and thus one of the possibly dozens of circulating interpretations has to be designated as the correct one.
If we take the Keyblades themselves as an example, it is plainly clear that this is a thing Nomura is hellbent on expanding upon to the end. It started slowly in KH 2 FM with Xigbar giving some ominuous statements and the secret ending, then got expanded in BBS. The mere introduction of x[chi] shows that Nomura most likely plans to reveal not only the origin of the Keyblades but much more about them, possibly even how they function and how they are created.

 

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I have to take these words at face value as I'm not familiar with the Metal Gear series beyond some character names and the fact that the story is known to be very complex with many twists.

I guess I have then just to concur on that one as my view might be more unique due to me probably being handicapped from spending several years with actual identical twins in the same school class. In a situation like that you simply learn to look for small distinguishing traits rather than distinct ones over time, which may be why I have noticeable less issues with this than others as well as some difficulties to understand why some people make such a fuss about it.

The differences should actually already been clear with just BBS, lol, at least that was originally planned as this bit from a Famitsu-interview from 2007 shows:

Apparently BBS failed to truly do that in a definite manner or these "problems" wouldn't exist. <__<

I've never played MGS either however dozens of people I know or met have. They understand it's story perfectly given how they all hold the same version of it's tales and complexities. Which with these friends being both across internet and real life tells me it must at least present puts the info to understand it where it should be, in the game, which KH doesn't do for most things.

Your situation is understandable in it's own right but due to the rarity of twins it's also definitely unique. Twins run in my own family actually and my cousins are the latest to appear. Like you I have learned to notice the subtle differences, namely I can tell them apart based on their voices, but distinguishing identical people like that takes time which most dont get. (for instance the only twins I can tell apart at first sight ARE my cousins, any other set would easily fool me)
Basically put most dont get the 'training' of knowing twins to look for slight variances. I myself never looked at eyebrows of in-game models and simply knew them different based on personality but I also understand a more visible distinguishing feature wouldn't hurt. It'd especially go a long way into making them more original rather than just carbon model copies. (add more to the identity as it were)

I think it's painfully obvious BBS failed in that regard and several others. lol

Apparently, lol.
Well, there is still hope yet that the Foretellers and Ephemera won't be clones at all despite extremely popular theories which hint at that.

True dat, I'm also willing to make a case for Master Xehanort, Ansem SoD and Xemnas as good villains if their plans and schemes in BBS, KH I and KH II are viewed separately, which was still possible until the advent of DDD.
I'm curious though what they will do with and for Aqua in this new episode. With that, they have a chance to not only flesh out a female character more but also to give some more substance for one third of the woefully underused BBS-trio. That Terra and Ven can't receive the same opportunity is kinda logical considering their "status" at the time BBS 0.2 takes place, but I have hope yet that they get "polished" somewhat better in KH III itself as well.

While I agree that one should not bottle things that bother oneself, I direct that one more towards serious RL problems rather than some misgivings about something that is supposed to be no more than a piece of entertainment. If I couldn't live with KH's flaws I would have abandoned the series long ago.
Heh, I'm pretty sure among Audo's examples were quite some involving him as well.

Here's hoping but my hope isn't to high. Not because of popular theories but just track record. haha T_T

Sadly this is true. Individually they had something to them. Ansem & Xemnas in particular were much more unique this way because you could view it as two beings warped by separation and memory loss. Not knowing who to be they were a mess. Master Xehanorts role was to explain the former and he did that perfectly. Doing what DDD honestly just cheapened all of them and even threw out all the possibilities of "is it terra or xehanort!?" of the two in scenes. (personally I think it would've been better if, instead of Xehanort being "it was all me!", that it could've just been "oh I've learned from my mistakes" ya know like an actual human would)

Aqua is honestly the only interest I have in 2.8. I'm curious to see what her short story will be and hope it gives her a development lacking in not only female characters but most characters in general. Also dark realm with destroyed light realm exploration, it'll be like one big version of End Of The World from KH1. (hopefully anyway)
Sadly I'm not sure Ven or Terra or salvageable at this point. Ven is to much like playing Sora for most and Terra's general consensus isn't great among fans. haha

Probably another topic for another thread but bottling anger in any form, RL or here, can bleed into the other making other things being ignored bad. Best to just vent and accept what's annoying you. (of course most would just rather do it continuously which is basically just bitching)
Meh even Audo's examples dont give him credit or elevate his character to me. To me Axel will always just be shoehorned fanservice. (I just dont gripe about him as much because he's more original than most of the cast lol)

Granted, that was also fostered by most of the BBS trailers not only being way too long but also way too story-heavy. I still remember the early BBS-Trailers which almost exclusively used Fate of the Unknown as background music until at some point the very first new music piece revealed for BBS was a trailer that used Ven's character theme (of course back then no one knew that it actually is Ven's theme). At that point the cutscene snippets and conversation pieces increased nearly to an insane degree.
That the way how it is done is absolute bullshit to phrase it harshly I think isn't really that contested anymore, however which things need answers and which not is an issue of personal interpretation. Anyone of us and the creators as well might designate something different as not needing of an answer.
Things and concepts on which new titles are slated to expand upon also simply cannot be left open for discussion anymore in 9 of 10 cases and thus one of the possibly dozens of circulating interpretations has to be designated as the correct one.
If we take the Keyblades themselves as an example, it is plainly clear that this is a thing Nomura is hellbent on expanding upon to the end. It started slowly in KH 2 FM with Xigbar giving some ominuous statements and the secret ending, then got expanded in BBS. The mere introduction of x[chi] shows that Nomura most likely plans to reveal not only the origin of the Keyblades but much more about them, possibly even how they function and how they are created.

Answers truly are subjective however even among that subjected atmosphere any fan group can agree some things are pointless or not needing in answer. Naturally things that do warrant answers can also be answered and elaborated poorly leaving many dissatisfied.
The case in point of keyblades. Nothings wrong with elaboration, nothings wrong with them being weapons of mass destruction but things like inheritance ceremonies for example is answering something that already had an answer and worst yet it's a superfluous one proven by it's own story of Sora bypassing it. (you already have established from KH1 that the keybalde itself chooses, that was enough) (teachers and students also needed no elaboration as any tradesmen will seek out apprentices to carry on that trade which could've been the older masters reasoning)
The Xblade too, while good on paper, felt handled poorly. Not because it's original but because its kinda just cheap as hell.