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Spoilers ► The Foretellers and what could await us with them



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Tobi

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(i hope this is the correct place to post something like this... but looking at some other threads it seems to be the case)

As it was foreshadowed in the ending of KH3 it looks like the next big clash is going to be between Sora & Co. versus The Foretellers, Luxu & MoM. So that has me thinking since I saw that scene and the reappearance of four of the five masked idiots Masters how all of this is even supposed to play out? Other than before these guys aren’t your typical bad guys... well for the most part atleast (Aced and Luxu, Gula just maybe, but we lack, as far as I know, confirmation in his case). On top of that other than both of the Organisations - or the Disney villain syndicate of KH1 - they already proved that they have a hard time with sticking together in order to reach a shared goal. Yes, both Organisations had a hard time with traitors, too, but they atleast were capable of coming close to fulfilling their goals - or they thought so for the most part. They on the other hand did the exact opposite of what they initially planned to do.

Aside from Luxu none of them should even have control over most known enemy types. Maybe they can get some planless-Nobodies on their side (if they even want them) or Dreameater spirits, but so far they seem to lack something like this. Is a new enemy type coming or are they going to operate on their own? Or could a dark-turned Ava or Luxu, who acts in the old ways, while the others aren’t looking, give us something in that direction? Vanitas & Malefiz could maybe jump in here and there, but would be more like a third party, but i digress...

There are probably a lot more questions, which could be asked about this, which are admittedly hard to answer at the time. Still I’ld like to share some ideas of my own regarding all of this. Maybe someone elses imagination has already worked out something similar or has anything to add to all of this.

So where to start? First of all I should mention that I forgot about the one year time skip while writing this - as in what they have done in the meantime - so that is an aspect I didn’t considered. Maybe they just used the time in order to get a picture of the state of the worlds now?

Important to all of this would be a look at what the goals of each one of The Foretellers are going to have. For this there is already some ground work given to us by the whole chi/UX/whatever.

A shared goal between them - or most of them - is likely to getting MoM and Ava back, so they need to gather information. But the way they are going to approach this is already a point where they are likely to separate from one another. I do think each of them is going to visit one of the KH original worlds in order to follow their own agenda, but also working for getting more information about what happened to the people mentioned above. Additionally we can get some character introduction, without letting the GoL know from the start that they are the enemy, so the introductions aren’t bound to be hostile in most cases (looking at both Orgs. here and most Disney villains, MX at the start of BBS is the only exception I can think of atm)

Currently I see them separating like this:

Ira
World: Twilight Town
Goals: Reforming the old keyblade society, which came close to dying out.

As the former (?) leader of the Foretellers it’s likely that Ira will put effort into trying to bring the numbers of Keyblade wielders back to the state it once was together with getting them on a reasonable skill level... or atleast as good as it’s possible. Together with Invi he was one of the more reasonable Foretellers, who cared deeply about his duties, so it wouldn’t be a suprise if he would try to fix what he has helped breaking.

Twilight Town doesn’t only already have three potentially recrutable keyblade wielders, it’s also the world where the most potential new recruits should be findable (aside from Radiant Garden and other worlds we don’t know yet). Seifer as example could be jealous of RAX + Isa, since they can now easily push him away when he’s once again trying to act as if he is the top dog of the town (Isa vs. Seifer when? I’ld like to see that onesided beatdown). He would search for ways to become more even with the others and getting a keyblade would be one way (or falling for the powers of darkness Riku KH1 style, but I hope for something new). This doesn’t mean Ira is going to ask just everyone, but he would scout for recruits. As an example a new struggle tournament would be very fitting to this.

The mansion would serve as Ira’s base, which could become a place where new keyblade wielders could be trained. The connection between him and the mansion was made before (the unicorn statue), so I think it’s atleast a good bet.

Thematically all of this would also clash really well with RAX dynamic, who would be very suspicious of anyone trying to recruit people in some group, even more when that man starts to try to get themself joining. It would clash with their wish to live more relax and normal lives with their friends (okay, we don’t really know what they want, but I do think it should come close to this). It’s unlikely that someone like Ira would pass the chance to get them on his side, but he wouldn’t use force against them. Except... I wonder if the (former?) nobodies have still access to the corridors of darkness and if they still use them in order to visit the others? Because if they do, the Unicorn could see a reason to become more hostile. This could happen either by violence or - which I’ld like a bit more - by mouth propganda and starting claiming among his students that they are evil just because they use the Darkness in any way, which i can think of becoming a shared theme among the Foretellers.

I’m also wondering what the Foretellers are thinking about Isa, if Luxu is telling them anything about him. If he (Luxu) leaves nothing out - which is a question on it's own - the same could be said about himself, but a former, voluntary member of the Seeker of Darkness isn’t going to get a easy time with these guys around. Atleast I have a hard time thinking about it otherwise.


___

Aced
World: Land of Departure
Goals: Becoming a king, searching for people who could serve him. More quality, allready-trained focused than Ira in that regard.

He wishes to become a king, so he is going to a world with a throne in it. Well, ‘The world which never was’ has thrones as well, but the Land of Departure is more fitting in my mind. Ven, Aqua and Terra are all professional trained keyblade wielders, one of them even a master and Aced will surely try to get them as his knights (a king needs knights, thats so simple, I see him using this argument)... with force, when they decline. For now they are in the Dark Realm, but I’m sure they will at some point clash with him and will provide us with the first serious combat interaction between a Foreteller and the GoL (when they return and find him sitting on the throne?). Aced is the biggest troublemaker and should serve as a good warning for the others GoL, which power level these guys have. My prediction is that Aced is going to beat them on the first clash. I’ld favor one by one - or only one of them - in order to avoid damaging their reputation to much (as bad as it would already be). Sidenote: I wonder if one of the Foretellers is going to recognize Ven as a former Union member, but I can’t imagine it to be Aced. Ven doesn’t strike me as someone, who would join Aceds Union, if he is even a little bit informed about him.

With Terra we even have a potential rivalry between him and Aced. They share a lot of traits (big strength, not the smartest), but also have something what makes them different from one another. Terra once failed to control his emotions and darkness, but learned from his mistakes. Aced on the other side is Terras (once) worst traits taken to the worst. Short temperament, trust issues and tends to solve his problems by force. On the other side, Terra having an affinity to Darkness could easily turn into a reason for Aced to eliminate him on the spot. This is also in my eyes the most likely spark to ignite a fight between him and the wayfinder trio and by extension the other GoL once they are getting informed. It would lead to more distrust when they have to deal with the other Foretellers.

Additionally, this whole scenario would also be a good setup to get Castle Oblivion back, atleast if Aqua is given the time and chance. It’s a far more better place to run and hide from Aced and a return of it is kinda needed in my opinion in order to release Vens lost memories (Aceds memories of Daybreak town -> trigger for Ven and maybe the others from back then, too if Lauriam isn’t going to do that for them). Plus we still need to see Luxord in there in action. It should be also a great tool in order to confuse Aced... yes I wanna see that.

Aside from all of this the Land of Departure could also provide knowledge for the Foretellers. I can’t imagine that this place has no library or anything similar. It would serve the shared goal of the Foretellers of searching for clues.


____


Invi
World: Radiant Garden
Goals: Helping in Iras plans, but is more focused on gathering information about the lost

Other than the other two, I don’t have any big lore reasons why she should visit this place. But some points are there. Aside from Ira she is the most fitting for coming into contact with Ansem the wise and his students. She is calmer as the rest and the whole water theme in Radiant Garden would fit her aswell. It’s a stretch, I admit that, but in my head she just fits in there.

She wouldn't antagonize anyone, atleast not on the same levels as the others. But her worldview and how much she looked up to the MoM and the whole deal with the betrail of the students or Ansem the Wise, who became unloyal and ended up regretting everything, should give us potential for an interesting conflict.

___

Gula
World: Traverse Town?
Goal: Trying to find Ava?

No good idea yet in his case. Maybe Traverse Town? Visiting the world where people whose worlds were swallowed by darkness are stranding should serve as a possible starting point. If not for MoM then atleast for Ava, who was the closest to him being a friend. After all, after their keyblade war the world was covered in darkness, so if she didn’t manage to do the same thing as the others, she would most likely end up here. But that’s probably not in the slightest the case, since she would still need to make the jump through time.

Other places he could be visiting would be places connected to Kingdom Hearts. He planned to summon it previously in order to lure out MoM, so he could still be interested into learning new details about it. But I don't see this being the case, when MoM haven't been reappearing at the other occasions, where KH appeared.
___

Luxu
Worlds: Everywhere and nowhere - mostly the Keyblade Gravejard as a place to hide?
Goal: No idea

His case is of course more difficult. Everyone of the main cast knows him solely as a bad guy - which he probably still is - so showing any kind of connection to the others would be a bad move, if they intend to make a non hostile approach at first. He will most likely stay in the shadows, pop up here and there in front of the protagonists and is going to make sure that the others aren’t starting to smash their heads in again.

All of this would be the more interesting approach in my opinion, the other and shorter would be, that my guess on the black box is correct, there is something in it what is going to corrupt them (my bet is on a sturdy mirror) and turn them into bad guys. Sort of what I imagine happened to Luxu. He opened the box after the Fortellers war, looked into it (MoM with a dubious voice: “You’ll see.”), got corrupted into the Braig/Xigbar we know and is going to do the same with his buddies, so they can fit their sin. Well... both the above and this could happen in some other way.



At the start the Foretellers aren't going to work closely together with the others (exception Ira and Invi) - any maybe even step in when as example Aced is causing troubles again - so pushing one of them away, if they overstep boundaries, by working together, could work out, but the further we go in the new saga, the more they are going to work together again - probably then thanks to the comeback of MoM - and won't become less of a threat.
By this time there should also have been enough time for introducing some kind of enemy type, which they are going to commend, if they don't simply fall to darkness.

One final note, Scala is my guess for their meeting world. The top of the tower to be precise. If that world doesn't exists at the moment, they could have a way to get it back.
___

So overall my guess with them is, that most of them won't start as being antagonistic towards the GoL, but over the course of time they will rub against each other more and more with their different worldviews, especially their view on Darkness (any user of darkness, no matter if former or not = bad vs. it's dangerous, but not everyone who has ties to darkness is automatically bad (Terra, Riku, Anems students)) and their other goals. They would be more of grayish type of antagonists, opposed to the all-evil Xehanorts we have learned knowing and hating before.


This was now a big wall of text, but I hope I was capable to give you a picture of how I imagine our new bad guys could work in a way, which we haven't had yet in KH and that you developed some ideas of your own regarding this - something which could add up to this (as example to the Gula part, where I'm mostly clueless) or something else^^ Or just take it apart, because of some other aspects I didn't thought about.
 

LoneFox

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Luxu
Worlds: Everywhere and nowhere - mostly the Keyblade Gravejard as a place to hide?
Goal: No idea
Goal: Challenging and unmasking the Master of Masters. He was already doing this in KHUX, putting Ava in berserk mode with it.
With all the biblical stuff around, the Lux (light) in his name, and the goat as his symbol, it seems clear to me that he is meant to be the equivalent of Lucifer.

Also, look for him in Dark Road. It is likely that he will show up there, obviously in a different body.
 

Tobi

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Goal: Challenging and unmasking the Master of Masters. He was already doing this in KHUX, putting Ava in berserk mode with it.
With all the biblical stuff around, the Lux (light) in his name, and the goat as his symbol, it seems clear to me that he is meant to be the equivalent of Lucifer.

Also, look for him in Dark Road. It is likely that he will show up there, obviously in a different body.
So basically... he would help the others in finding MoM only to put an end to him once they find him? I can see this happen. It would give him also a reason to try to track Sora down, too in order for him to find out what happened to MoM.

As for Dark Roads, I wouldn't be suprised if Luxu is using the body of their master from some point onwards or even from the very beginning. Because although Brain seems to become the first one who is going to train students at Scala (similarities to Eraqus), Luxu plans to keep an eye on the upcoming generations of keyblade wielders and - more importantly - he needs a keyblade in order to transfer his heart into someone else. So he either needs the bodies of keyblade wielders - if this allows him to use their keyblades - or needs to use No Name while nobody else is looking.
Or am I overseeing another option?

Slimmed down it would come to Master (Luxu) -> finds x students -> after some time one of the students (the one who is supposed to inherit No Name?) is getting possessed by Luxu by him using No Name -> once in the new body he puts it back -> finds x new students [...] until Xehanort comes along and Luxu ends this chain by targeting Braig.

This chain of events feels incomplete to be honest... I mean where would it start? Already with Brain (who, after some theories looks similar to Eraqus) or whoever is the first?

I mean there could still be some truth about it, if there is a system designed by Luxu, which makes things for him easier, plus explain why there is such a small number of keyblade wielders by the time of BBS. Something like a system of always two students and one master. Ven joined Terra and Aqua only later and Xehanort and Eraqus were also only two students as far as we know.
So Luxu posessing always the one, who isn't going to train the next two students/ isn't becoming "ruler" of Scala could maybe work out, but the hole thing with No Name staying at Scala would stay tricky... I better stop at this point :D
 

Ballad of Caius

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Goal: Challenging and unmasking the Master of Masters. He was already doing this in KHUX, putting Ava in berserk mode with it.
With all the biblical stuff around, the Lux (light) in his name, and the goat as his symbol, it seems clear to me that he is meant to be the equivalent of Lucifer.

Also, look for him in Dark Road. It is likely that he will show up there, obviously in a different body.
Luxu having different forms and using possession could also be a reference to Lucifer. You could also make an argument that he isn't one of the MoM's "angels", seeing as how Luxu isn't exactly a Foreteller.
 

Dreq the Dreck

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My only "critique" is that it doesn't introduce enough of my headcanon rivalries:
  • aqua vs invi
  • riku vs ira
  • ventus/roxas vs gula
They all seem too similar to ignore.
 

Tobi

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My only "critique" is that it doesn't introduce enough of my headcanon rivalries:
  • aqua vs invi
  • riku vs ira
  • ventus/roxas vs gula
They all seem too similar to ignore.
No wonder, if they all end up to be related to each other or something down this line...
(regarding something which was datamined)
Spoiler Spoiler Show


But I have no idea how these guys could collide. Well, maybe there's something with Aqua & Invi, but for the rest, no idea.
 

Raz

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These are all really great ideas!

I hope Luxu gets a new moves set. I'm kind of tired of fighting Xigbar/Braig.
 

Alpha Baymax

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I love this theory, the division of protagonists into their groups definitely seem intentional. I'd love to see each trio have a personal rivalry against a Foreteller.

My only "critique" is that it doesn't introduce enough of my headcanon rivalries:
  • Aqua vs Invi
  • Riku vs Ira
  • Ventus/Roxas vs gula
They all seem too similar to ignore.
My personal headcanon rivalry would be this:

Roxas, Xion, Lea, Isa vs. Ira and Invi (through 358/2 Days successor)
Terra, Ventus, Aqua vs. Gula and Aced (through Birth By Sleep successor)
Riku, Kairi vs. Ava and Luxu (through Dream Drop Distance successor)

With all these games leading to Kingdom Hearts IV. Sora and gang versus the Foretellers.
 

Dreq the Dreck

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Yeah that's the thing though. A part of me vehemently believes that (primarily) roxas and xion are functionally dead.

Nomura already has a clusterfuck of characters to deal with and roxas and xion have nothing going for them for saga 2. It'd be quite easy to write them out and focus on lauriam&co. and yozora&co.

This worried me for years. Roxas is my favorite but I stopped wishing for his return when I realized he'd have no purpose thus would be demoted to a cameo.

.... I can kinda see xion pushing subject x to MoM's side by "replacing" her alongside isa and lea, but that's absolutely it.
 

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Ehh, I've been ignoring this thread (and subject) for quite a while, but it does bug me that everyone is kinda automatically assuming the Foretellers are going to be the enemies of the new saga, they have never been villains in the first place either.

The situations they end up facing in X leading up to the Keyblade War was because of MoM's shenanigans envolving manipulation, withelding important information and essentially setting them up to a fight they had no choice but to take part in. But not one of them had ill intentions, they all thought they were doing the good thing.

Almost like Riku in KH1 or to a lesser scale Terra in BBS, they were just a bunch of puppets. I guess the revelation that Braig is Luxu made everyone just assume they would join forces, but then again, Even was also an insider in the New Org, so I wouldn't doubt that Luxu himself barely cares for what he's doing as long as he suceeds in his mission for the MoM.

I'm not saying they aren't going to be a en enemy nor would I be exactly surprised if that turned out to be the case, but automatically grouping them as the new villains for the next saga doesn't exactly sit right with me. lol
 

Tobi

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I'm not saying they aren't going to be a en enemy nor would I be exactly surprised if that turned out to be the case, but automatically grouping them as the new villains for the next saga doesn't exactly sit right with me. lol
True, but then again, I highly doubt that they won't become enemies at some point, because of some reason(s). They are builded up in X as extremely powerful as in player vs. them, the player doesn't stand a chance. This is usally done with villains, so they can appear as threatening once you face them again. Think of Seymour in FFX or Sephiroth. Both of them were shown to us in their respective games in ingame battles (as party members) and in these they were shown as powerful in comparison to The Foretellers were in X (Seymour a bit less, but no doubt in Sephiroths case). Many levels beyond what the player was at that stage (or atleast presumely was in FFX's case). Yes, I'm writing here about characters where we already knew or atleast had reason to highly assume, that they are or are going to be evil. But the point still stands, these cases are similar, atleast to me and I'ld have a hard time to believe these battles weren't made in this way with a thought behind them.

But they won't be immediately hostile because as you said, they had and probably still have good intentions. But we have villains, who can act between "now" and the point where they cross some line with these intentions. It's not hard to believe they are going to continue to act with a good will, but the way they do it is going to be off putting. As example, do we know if they are aware of the world order and that it shouldn't been treated careless?
Basically, in most cases - Aceds case atleast in my imagination for the most part aside - there are going to be misunderstandings, which will let to these conflicts, but also clear reasons for both sides to clash against each other.

As an example on The Foretellers side, they are likely to view the ones with an affinity to darkness as a possible threat. Questionable because of Luxu, but also not completly out of the window.
On the other side there would be Luxu's connection with The Foretellers. If anyone on the GoL side would find out about it, it would create more distrust, since the GoL - as long as they aren't given a believeable explanation - would be likely to see them less trust worthy.

Almost like Riku in KH1 or to a lesser scale Terra in BBS, they were just a bunch of puppets. I guess the revelation that Braig is Luxu made everyone just assume they would join forces, but then again, Even was also an insider in the New Org, so I wouldn't doubt that Luxu himself barely cares for what he's doing as long as he suceeds in his mission for the MoM.
That's true, they could also become very disappointed in Luxu or even threatening him, if he would tell them everything, which we don't know yet. A scenario where they explain to the GoL early on the whole deal with Luxu would be possible... But to be honest, I don't see that happening. If the GoL are going to find out that the person they know as Braig is in truth an old keyblade master, it's more likely revealed by himself as a suprise to them.
 

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Kingdom Hearts usually has pretty poor writing and in the few situations where they had the opportunity to do better and write better characters that aren't automatically either good or evil, the writing team fails miserably (biggest ex: Terra, Eraqus. But also Axel and Saïx, who both felt more and more lost in their motives as the games went on. Ansem The Wise being the only character close to having some resemblance of neutrality but even then we never see his actual development, he just goes from a complete asshole to a pathetic old man desesperately asking to atone, but he never even apologizes, really.), so I'm not expecting the Foretellers to get anything actually good and will most likely just hang between good and evil until ultimately they are redeemed like everyone else.

But, and this is a huge but, KH3 started to dwelve into the realm of unknow that we haven't really approached since Chain of Memories. And I don't say this as in the writing got darker (BBS and Days were much darker), but as in its starting to deal with different aspects that we haven't seen in the franchise before and opening the doors to new themes and new writing teams, specially with the Verum Rex stuff.

So I would love if instead of being "Good" or "Evil", the Foretellers end up being a neutral party. Their return bringing back some old, ancient Keyblade world with them (either Scaia or Daybreak Town or even something else) and them serving as some sort of authority between Keyblade wielders without necessarily siding with any side.

For those who have watched the british series Doctor Who (more specifically the classic saga, not the 2005 soft reboot), I would love something similar to the Time Lords and their relationship with The Doctor. Something like Riku and Co trying to bring Sora back only for them to be judged by the Foretellers for dwelling with the laws of nature in the process, risking the world order and stuff. And instead of raw fights against them to protect Sora, we would have the protagonists go on an assigment for them to fix things and have them help bring our lovely main character back or something.
 

SweetYetSalty

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The Zoo-Keys/Foretellers have to be the main antagonist for the dream matches with them. I want to see the heroes battle these guys, plus how can I see Gula beatup and vanquished if he isn't a villain. I need my justice! I must see Gula beaten and broken before the heroes. And best of all...

Spoiler Spoiler Show
 

Face My Fears

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Ehh, I've been ignoring this thread (and subject) for quite a while, but it does bug me that everyone is kinda automatically assuming the Foretellers are going to be the enemies of the new saga, they have never been villains in the first place either.

The situations they end up facing in X leading up to the Keyblade War was because of MoM's shenanigans envolving manipulation, withelding important information and essentially setting them up to a fight they had no choice but to take part in. But not one of them had ill intentions, they all thought they were doing the good thing.

Almost like Riku in KH1 or to a lesser scale Terra in BBS, they were just a bunch of puppets. I guess the revelation that Braig is Luxu made everyone just assume they would join forces, but then again, Even was also an insider in the New Org, so I wouldn't doubt that Luxu himself barely cares for what he's doing as long as he suceeds in his mission for the MoM.

I'm not saying they aren't going to be a en enemy nor would I be exactly surprised if that turned out to be the case, but automatically grouping them as the new villains for the next saga doesn't exactly sit right with me. lol
The thing that makes me think they'll be the villains is that their pieces were on Xehanort's side of the board at the end of KH3. Eraqus used (seemingly) one piece, which could allude to Sora. The only way I can see them not being villains is if:
Spoiler Spoiler Show
 

Noivern

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The thing that makes me think they'll be the villains is that their pieces were on Xehanort's side of the board at the end of KH3. Eraqus used (seemingly) one piece, which could allude to Sora. The only way I can see them not being villains is if:
Spoiler Spoiler Show
You have a point and I don't doubt that's what the ending was trying to hint at! But Eraqus also says this is a new game with new rules, and we are now going to get Dark Road focusing on Xehanort, so while the previous game had Nort representing Darkness and his 13 selves against Eraqus standing in for Light as a reference to the Dark Seeker saga, the new set of pieces could mean anything.

This is just me trying to be optimistic that we may get a more-developed story rather than Light VS Darkness PT2: Attack Of The Furries.
 

Face My Fears

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You have a point and I don't doubt that's what the ending was trying to hint at! But Eraqus also says this is a new game with new rules, and we are now going to get Dark Road focusing on Xehanort, so while the previous game had Nort representing Darkness and his 13 selves against Eraqus standing in for Light as a reference to the Dark Seeker saga, the new set of pieces could mean anything.

This is just me trying to be optimistic that we may get a more-developed story rather than Light VS Darkness PT2: Attack Of The Furries.
Spoiler Spoiler Show
 

OneDandelion

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Kingdom Hearts usually has pretty poor writing and in the few situations where they had the opportunity to do better and write better characters that aren't automatically either good or evil, the writing team fails miserably (biggest ex: Terra, Eraqus. But also Axel and Saïx, who both felt more and more lost in their motives as the games went on.
Say what you will about the writing in KH, but I don't think it's accurate to suggest the characters have been "automatically either good or evil". The only ones that really fit that description are maybe Sora, Kairi, Mickey, Dark Riku, and Vanitas. The rest have gone through some kind of transformation or have a somewhat nuanced take on good and evil like Xehanort and presumably Riku. In the case of Axel and Saix it really seemed to me like they simply have no screen time and I've felt the same way about Terra, Aqua, and Ven. It's only easy to call them one dimensional characters because they're fighting Xehanort so the player naturally assumes they're stereotypical good guys and there are no amplifying details that tell us otherwise.

I think the real issue is that the characters have no down time or opportunities to express how they really feel. KH3 desperately needed a real hub world like Radiant Garden or Traverse Town where the characters could come together and share small moments of significant dialogue like in KH1 and KH2. Twilight Town simply did not serve that purpose. And it's a real shame because it's going to be near impossible to recover from the lack of character development in KH3, the pacing is completely screwed up - the entire game felt like they squeezed a book into 2 hours worth of cutscenes by cutting off all amplifying character details, as if they condensed the plot of the book into bullet points and turned those bullet points into cutscenes

For example, people don't often stop to think about how important the 5 minutes worth of cutscenes highlighting Sora, Kairi, and Rikus friendship in KH1 was. It was quick, but it was significant enough that it made me care about rescuing Kairi and Riku. Or the cheesy little scene where Kairi gives Sora the Oathkeeper charm. The small scenes of Riku becoming jealous of Sora when he sees him with Donald and Goofy. The cutscenes in KH3 look great, but theres nothing of substance telling us anything about the characters or what they're feeling. I love that scene with Kairi and Axel in merlins book visually, but it doesn't tell us a single thing about Kairi and Lea we didn't already know. Anyway, sorry if I misinterpreted your post? this turned into a bit of a rant
 

Tobi

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Kingdom Hearts usually has pretty poor writing and in the few situations where they had the opportunity to do better and write better characters that aren't automatically either good or evil, the writing team fails miserably (biggest ex: Terra, Eraqus. But also Axel and Saïx, who both felt more and more lost in their motives as the games went on. Ansem The Wise being the only character close to having some resemblance of neutrality but even then we never see his actual development, he just goes from a complete asshole to a pathetic old man desesperately asking to atone, but he never even apologizes, really.), so I'm not expecting the Foretellers to get anything actually good and will most likely just hang between good and evil until ultimately they are redeemed like everyone else.
The problems with the sometimes questionable writing across the games - where I agree with you to an extent - is something where I think we can be more optimistic from now on. In the old saga, a huge part of the problem lies within what was planned at the start of it versus what was planned later on and needed to be added on the old stuff.
KH1 and KH2 had plot points, which allowed a continuation (KH1 more than 2, both before they got FM versions), but at the start it was probably hard to tell how well these games are going to sell and how much future it has and that let to a few problems. The whole thing with Subject X/ "the girl" and Lea and Isa as an example were probably not even thought of when the characters were designed.

But now Nomura knows how far he can go and should already know for the most part, what he want for each character and the story itself. Or atleast I think a masterplan should exists, which was missing at the start what is nowadays the Xehanort saga. The more we drive off from the old saga we have atleast the potential of getting a better writing.

In my opinion part of this is already prepared in the Limit Cut episode. The trios have been splitted and have now the chance to show some character developement in a smaller circle of other characters they have to share to spotlight with.
 

Noivern

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Say what you will about the writing in KH, but I don't think it's accurate to suggest the characters have been "automatically either good or evil". The only ones that really fit that description are maybe Sora, Kairi, Mickey, Dark Riku, and Vanitas. The rest have gone through some kind of transformation or have a somewhat nuanced take on good and evil like Xehanort and presumably Riku. In the case of Axel and Saix it really seemed to me like they simply have no screen time and I've felt the same way about Terra, Aqua, and Ven. It's only easy to call them one dimensional characters because they're fighting Xehanort so the player naturally assumes they're stereotypical good guys and there are no amplifying details that tell us otherwise.

I think the real issue is that the characters have no down time or opportunities to express how they really feel. KH3 desperately needed a real hub world like Radiant Garden or Traverse Town where the characters could come together and share small moments of significant dialogue like in KH1 and KH2. Twilight Town simply did not serve that purpose. And it's a real shame because it's going to be near impossible to recover from the lack of character development in KH3, the pacing is completely screwed up - the entire game felt like they squeezed a book into 2 hours worth of cutscenes by cutting off all amplifying character details, as if they condensed the plot of the book into bullet points and turned those bullet points into cutscenes
What do you mean Axel had no screen time? He was one of the main leads of 358/2 Days and was probably the Org member with the most screentime in both CoM and 2. CoM has him as this mysterious assassin with hidden motives working for a superior force, 2 reduces him to a one liner (Got it memorized!- Ad Eternum) who is constantly crying over his missing friend and then he just sort of dies on us? We had that cutscene showing he was buds with Roxas in Twilight Town, but all the ambiguity he had in CoM is kinda thrown into the garbage bin, and his character just feels a bit lost to me.
Days is the worst offender because it comes back to hinting at his hidden agenda through his conversations with Saïx, but nothing really comes down to it and he just turns into Roxas and Xion's babysitter and Xemnas' lapdog to make sure his 2 kids stay in the Org.
The mysterious flame-wielding assassin that was introduced 3 games prior turns into a sad man in his mid twenties that just wants to be friends, so evil in one game and good-ish in the other. Then he returns in DDD as full on good.

Saïx is the worst offender because he was supposed to be this neutral character playing in the hands of Xehanort just as an excuse to investigate and get his missing friendback, not caring if he had to hurt a lot of people in the process. Part of his actions against Roxas and Co. should be motivated by jealously because he feels like his best friend dropped him (which he did. Saix totally had a point here, Axel was a clown). But we never get to actually see this as he's bad in 2 games, hinted to have a hidden agenda in Days (in one small cutscene dropped in the middle of Xion's plot and almost forgotten afterwards) and then is back to regular evil throughout all of 3 only for the ending to be like "Oh hey, I'm sorry, btw. Let me sit here and enjoy some Ice-Cream with the kids whose life I turned into hell and my ex-best friend that I almost literally beat to death with a guitar like 2 days ago)."

Funnily enough, the only character I can think that actually has some neutrality to her besides the Foretellers in X is Maleficent. I know that it's kind of a running joke between the fandom that she turns into a laugh by 2 onwards and people in this forum always say Pete should have been alone on 2, but I like that after she returns she is sort of doing her own thing and even helps Sora a few times for her own benefits. She's still villain-coded, but she's doing it for her own goals and not just to get to Kingdom Hearts like everyone else, really.


The problems with the sometimes questionable writing across the games - where I agree with you to an extent - is something where I think we can be more optimistic from now on. In the old saga, a huge part of the problem lies within what was planned at the start of it versus what was planned later on and needed to be added on the old stuff.
KH1 and KH2 had plot points, which allowed a continuation (KH1 more than 2, both before they got FM versions), but at the start it was probably hard to tell how well these games are going to sell and how much future it has and that let to a few problems. The whole thing with Subject X/ "the girl" and Lea and Isa as an example were probably not even thought of when the characters were designed.

But now Nomura knows how far he can go and should already know for the most part, what he want for each character and the story itself. Or atleast I think a masterplan should exists, which was missing at the start what is nowadays the Xehanort saga. The more we drive off from the old saga we have atleast the potential of getting a better writing.

In my opinion part of this is already prepared in the Limit Cut episode. The trios have been splitted and have now the chance to show some character developement in a smaller circle of other characters they have to share to spotlight with.
I definitely agree with you here, while there are some plot threads that I'm sure he at least had some idea of way back in the beginning (like the idea of the Organization back during KH1, which was altered by the time of the final product. I always thought that weird hunchback coat that SoD uses when he shows up in Destiny Island would have been replaced by the classic dark coat we are used to nowadays. I also think Subject X was probably in his mind way back in BBS too, but the idea to throw part of that plot in UX instead of a console game probably came by later), but Kingdom Hearts as a whole is a franchise about retconning.

This wouldn't be bad by itself, but Nomura and his team takes things too serious and instead of simply doing revisions as time goes by, they go out of their way to make things allign instead of just.. rewriting them? Half of the mess we have to deal with could be solved if they just released a "Hyrule Historia" style book for Kingdom Hearts explaining most of the lore and the world, but instead we just get new jiminy journal entries and new secret reports and have to make sense of them however we see fit.
 

Ballad of Caius

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  • Final Fantasy XV
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • In the Grid
  • Bravely Default
  • Kingdom Hearts Unchained χ
These are all really great ideas!

I hope Luxu gets a new moves set. I'm kind of tired of fighting Xigbar/Braig.
I want two things with Luxu:
* Keyblade battle with No Name
* If the MoM ends up reclaiming No Name, give Luxu a Keyblade of his own, which will most certainly be based on Braig's Arrowguns and it could serve as a reason to combine both type of combats with Luxu: close quarters with Keyblade and long range with his Arrowgun abilities.
 
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