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The explanation of nobodies



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rokudamia2

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Guys,we've known since KH2 the theme of the series is all life has a heart. And in CoM, KH2, Days, and Re:Coded we had many instances where things without hearts are implied to have hearts born in them.

CoM it's very very vague
KH2 it's more obvious with Roxas and Axel
Days it's almost like it's trying to tell us the answer but without doing it.
Re:Coded that's the entire theme of the game.
DDD confirms the heart thing for a fact.
 

Zero Sora

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Actually this makes perfect sense. If Sora can make a new body out of nowhere after first becoming a heartless, then why can't nobodies make new hearts?
 

Caxm

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Wait so in the Kingdom Hearts universe lone hearts can form new bodies (Sora becoming whole from Kairi's light/ Vanitas creating a body out of darkness).

And lone bodies and souls can develop new hearts (Axel during CoM / Roxas during Days / Xion during Days / Almost all organization)

Does anyone else see the flaw in this? We could literally make infinite hearts and bodies XD
 

Samhain

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Actually this makes perfect sense. If Sora can make a new body out of nowhere after first becoming a heartless, then why can't nobodies make new hearts?

First of all sora did not make a new body out of nowhere

Sora was a heartless and since a heartless is a heart covered in darkness when kairi purified him she removed all the darkness out of him and he was an existence of a heart. he didnt have a body.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Wait so in the Kingdom Hearts universe lone hearts can form new bodies (Sora becoming whole from Kairi's light/ Vanitas creating a body out of darkness).

And lone bodies and souls can develop new hearts (Axel during CoM / Roxas during Days / Xion during Days / Almost all organization)

Does anyone else see the flaw in this? We could literally make infinite hearts and bodies XD

You're mixing up some things here.

Lone hearts can't form new bodies on their own, there can only be a projected shell/vessel around it by someone else with enough power.
Sora didn't really become whole, he got a shell made of light by Kairi's princess powers, Roxas was inhabiting Sora's body.
Vanitas' newborn heart of darkness also didn't create its body by itself, it was Master Xehanort who formed a vessel for it to reside in.

As for the other way around now with new hearts growing, Xemnas explicitly points out that not all Nobodies are capable of giving birth to a new heart. "Each individual is different."
 

flurryflames

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As for the other way around now with new hearts growing, Xemnas explicitly points out that not all Nobodies are capable of giving birth to a new heart. "Each individual is different."

Well Xenmas was wrong maybe at first, but during the time. Half of the organization had hearts without him even knowing about it. He just tried to brain wash them in thinking they didn't have hearts or emotions. They talk about memories and what it felt like to have hearts so this must mean in a sense some of them believed they actually did have hearts. Maybe the memory was also a form of their heart. This is the problem when Japanese get the FM and other countries don't. Things are contridicted and changed and confuses the whole aspect for everyone.

Some of those cutscenes that were in KH2 FM were a key element where some of the nobodies expressed themselves and then getting shot down of not having emotions by Xenmas. So it was hinted all long we just didn't get it.

Though what about the lesser nobodies? Dusk, creepers, assassins, gamblers, dragoons, dancers, free shooters, sorcerors, samuari. Do they fit it with the heart cateogory as well?
 

Sephiroth0812

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Maybe the memory was also a form of their heart. This is the problem when Japanese get the FM and other countries don't. Things are contridicted and changed and confuses the whole aspect for everyone.

Some of those cutscenes that were in KH2 FM were a key element where some of the nobodies expressed themselves and then getting shot down of not having emotions by Xenmas. So it was hinted all long we just didn't get it.

Memories are a very important part that form a heart, that was made clear already way back in Chain of Memories. I agree with that notion, another one is also that often in Japanese sentences can have different meanings depending on how they are read as well that we never get the Ultimanias, which also add tremendously to the series overall mythos.

There are so many things that are hinted very subtly along the way, as shown with my long post in #19 on this page. Many parts of the audience however either don't get it or dismiss it as just symbolic, which we now come to realize it really isn't.
 

Straythe

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Of course not. Just the nobodies with human form.

Though, while we have no idea what's going on inside Xehanort, and ignore Terra's fate, maybe Roxas actually grew Ven's heart. That would be a nice surprise ! Allowing both to live.

Just like Axel grew back a heart similar to Lea's, when he was reborned it actually made no difference.

If Sora can somehow send Roxas' heart to Ven, both might come back as "one" like Lea and Axel.

As for Terra, no idea how he can come back. Not through Xemnas, for sure.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Of course not. Just the nobodies with human form.

Though, while we have no idea what's going on inside Xehanort, and ignore Terra's fate, maybe Roxas actually grew Ven's heart. That would be a nice surprise ! Allowing both to live.

Just like Axel grew back a heart similar to Lea's, when he was reborned it actually made no difference.

If Sora can somehow send Roxas' heart to Ven, both might come back as "one" like Lea and Axel.

As for Terra, no idea how he can come back. Not through Xemnas, for sure.

Why would Roxas growing Ven's heart allowing both to live? It would only help the healing process of Ven's heart and do nothing for Roxas.
You can't compare Axel/Lea with Roxas and Ventus because they are completely different characters. Roxas was primarily born from Sora, not from Ven, he only has Ven's appearance. So if Roxas has a grown heart on his own it would now be inside Sora'sm beside Ven's and (possibly) Xion's.
The only thing Ventus needs is having his heart healed and put back into its body, as he never spawned a Nobody there is no "Nobody-heart counterpart" to Ventus.

For Terra it would depend who has his body atm. The body would need to be recovered and Terra's heart placed back into it, that should do it.
 

Straythe

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If the nobodies are "the bodies", then Roxas shouldn't have Ven's body. Yet he does. That means he's just as much from Sora as he is from Ven (both hearts were lost when becoming a heartless).

Roxas was a blank page. But all nobodies were at first(besides Xemnas). They had no memories of their old self, that happened while their hearts grew back.

Now with Roxas it's more complicated than that, he had to remember Sora's life, then Ansem erased his memories etc... We can't know if he was eventually gonna remember Ven's life.

What I meant is, since I REALLY doubt Vanitas is ever gonna fuse with Ven, maybe using Roxas to heal Ven and fuse them can bring Ven back, with Roxas' memories. I don't think there would be any conflict, they might be (or not, it's just a theory) the same person only they went through different experiences. They would be the same. Just like Lea retained all of Axel's memories.
 

Epic_Finale722

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I'm begining to think of hearts as more of a gooey amorphous substance that can be linked, and divided by memories. So, Normal nobodies like Lea which don't loose memories upon loosing their heart can develop a heart then gain their old heart while still having one heart because they have one person's memories.

While a freak like Sora has many sets of memories that divide his gooey emotional stuff into several hearts.

A person's heart has no form without memories to shape.
 

Sephiroth0812

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If the nobodies are "the bodies", then Roxas shouldn't have Ven's body. Yet he does. That means he's just as much from Sora as he is from Ven (both hearts were lost when becoming a heartless).

Roxas was a blank page. But all nobodies were at first(besides Xemnas). They had no memories of their old self, that happened while their hearts grew back.

Now with Roxas it's more complicated than that, he had to remember Sora's life, then Ansem erased his memories etc... We can't know if he was eventually gonna remember Ven's life.

What I meant is, since I REALLY doubt Vanitas is ever gonna fuse with Ven, maybe using Roxas to heal Ven and fuse them can bring Ven back, with Roxas' memories. I don't think there would be any conflict, they might be (or not, it's just a theory) the same person only they went through different experiences. They would be the same. Just like Lea retained all of Axel's memories.

Ouch, from where did you get this stuff? Roxas does NOT have Ven's body. Ven's body is sleeping inside the Chamber of Waking for over 10 years now.
Roxas has Sora's body and soul because he is/was Sora's nobody. Roxas is more from Sora than from Ven because Roxas was born from Sora's heart falling to darkness and he was using Sora's body and soul.
The only thing from Ven was that he carried Ven's broken heart, which made Sora's body look like Ventus, hence Roxas looking like Ventus.

Wrong, Roxas was the only Nobody that was in a blank page at first. He had to develop completely from nothing. This and that he co-existed with Sora is what makes him so special.
Naminé and Xion also had no memories, but these aren't really Nobodies.

All other human-shaped Nobodies always had the memories from their original selves.

Roxas only "remembered" bits of Sora's life because Naminé messing around with Sora's memories caused some to flow into him, he never associated these memories with himself.

They aren't the same person, that has already been confirmed. Roxas and Ven aren't the same so there would be no benefit from fusing them.
Roxas can't be counted in the same vein as Axel/Lea because of his special status. They can't be compared, especially not with Ventus who never had a Nobody.

I'm begining to think of hearts as more of a gooey amorphous substance that can be linked, and divided by memories. So, Normal nobodies like Lea which don't loose memories upon loosing their heart can develop a heart then gain their old heart while still having one heart because they have one person's memories.

While a freak like Sora has many sets of memories that divide his gooey emotional stuff into several hearts.

A person's heart has no form without memories to shape.

Well, Nomura did once say that hearts do not really have a definitve, tangible form, so that may play in here.

Axel not becoming "different" that Lea would be explainable with the old memories being used as a base, so the sense of self created is then astoundingly similar if not the same, yet with persons who have more than one heart in play or co-exist with their Nobody the Nobody develops differently and diverges from the original self (and therefore also the new heart of that Nobody).

That last sentence makes much sense, as the main form (let's call it the core) would be the bud, the unrefined base of a heart. Only by creating memories and a true sense of self and identity a true heart is formed.
This "forming" of a heart was also hinted by Nomura describing Ventus' state after his heart was heavily injured the first time and when he was brought to Eraqus:
BBS Ultimania said:
-- Ventus awakens with Sora's help, but at first his eyes are blank, and when he first meets Terra and Aqua he falls asleep under their barrage of questions.

Nomura: At that time, although Ventus has awakened, his heart is not fully formed.

Coincidence? I would think not.
As Ventus began to recover over the four years between this scene and the actual BBS-game under Terra's, Aqua's and Eraqus' care I would say that was when his heart grew and became more stable again, also in big part due to him forming new memories that helped forming his wounded heart back.
 

Straythe

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Roxas had no memories and got a heart.

He still had a heart when he lost his memories for the second time.

Oh and the obvious "chain of memories", Sora still had his heart.


Are we sure all the nobodies besides Roxas kept their memories at first ? I had the impression they were all born without them, it came back slowly. (I remember Xemnas lying about it)

edit :

huh gotta read that post above x.x
 

Dawn Rebirth

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Ouch, from where did you get this stuff? Roxas does NOT have Ven's body. Ven's body is sleeping inside the Chamber of Waking for over 10 years now.

Roxas has Sora's body and soul because he is/was Sora's nobody. Roxas is more from Sora than from Ven because Roxas was born from Sora's heart falling to darkness and he was using Sora's body and soul.
The only thing from Ven was that he carried Ven's broken heart, which made Sora's body look like Ventus, hence Roxas looking like Ventus.

Wrong, Roxas was the only Nobody that was in a blank page at first. He had to develop completely from nothing. This and that he co-existed with Sora is what makes him so special.

Naminé and Xion also had no memories, but these aren't really Nobodies.

All other human-shaped Nobodies always had the memories from their original selves.

Roxas only "remembered" bits of Sora's life because Naminé messing around with Sora's memories caused some to flow into him, he never associated these memories with himself.

Without trying to warrant your offense, be honest, when was the last time you looked through the reports in KH2 and Days?

Secret Ansem Reports X :
Sora went to sleep in order to recover the memories he had lost in Castle Oblivion. It would take quite some time to bring back all the memories he had created in his lifetime. But Organization XIII held sway over Castle Oblivion. Sora would need to be kept someplace more secure. I persuaded Naminé to move the slumbering Sora to Twilight Town for safekeeping. Naminé. As I have written before, she is a most unusual being. Born of the same process as a Nobody, but lacking virtually all the elements of a Nobody. Perhaps she continues drawing in hopes of capturing that which she lacks: the memories of others, especially Sora. I have arrived at a hypothesis. I believe that Naminé was born as a special type of Nobody when Sora attacked himself with the Keyblade, causing his and Kairi's hearts to leave their bodies simultaneously. Naminé emerged as Kairi's Nobody...but the body and soul necessary to exist as a Nobody belonged to Sora. When a person's heart is stolen, a Heartless is born with no sense of self, and the body and soul left behind give rise to a Nobody. But what if one willingly releases one's heart from one's body? Sora and Xehanort retained their selfhood even after becoming Heartless. Then there are Kairi and Naminé. Kairi was exceptional for having had no darkness within her heart. Also exceptional was that her heart, once freed, migrated to a new vessel—Sora. The combination of the two theoretically unlikely exceptions may be behind this anomaly. There are matters I must attend to while Sora is sleeping. A new ally has appeared on the scene: Riku.

Ansem Report XII :
Apart from Naminé, Nobodies retain their memories of their time as humans, but Sora's Nobody, Roxas, has lost Sora's memories. This is likely because Sora's time as a Heartless was short, having recovered his heart and returned to his human form soon after leaving behind Roxas, his Nobody. It would seem Roxas is much like Naminé. Naminé is Kairi's Nobody, but came into being via Sora's body and soul. Likewise, Roxas is Sora's Nobody, but was left behind because Sora's Heartless regained human form using Kairi's heart instead of his own. It may be that Sora's memories are slow to return because the half of him that Roxas is still lacking. I must convert Roxas into data and return him to Sora. As a member of Organization XIII, it was exceedingly difficult to bring Roxas in. Having lost to Roxas once, Riku laid everything on the line and used the power of darkness in their second battle, only just managing to bring Roxas back with him. But Organization XIII grows ever nearer. Here, Twilight Town, is where Roxas was reborn as a Nobody. This is where Roxas first encountered Organization XIII and joined its ranks. They are bound to search this place thoroughly. First I shall convert all of Twilight Town into data and construct a "world duplicate" in Sora's memories. I shall place Roxas within that world to live out his days and regain those memories. There is little time. The Organization's schemes must be making steady progress as well.

Day 23: Research Entry 326

The Program is largely on target. No. i, my finest Replica, has proven an even greater success than anticipated. I intend to take the other vessel - judged unfit for number status - to Castle Oblivion, where I will subject it to further testing. One thing is clear: could these Replicas not be classified as a special sort of Nobody?
Author: Vexen

Now we can just dismiss these as theories, or what have you with Vexen, that haven't been proven(For that's what they are on the surface). But, why would they exist without meaning?

Even if you didn't bring this up, one of the Xehanort's reports most likely exists to show how Xehanort's noble goal has changed to the diabolical master plan, which in-depth makes us shudder at Xehanort's very existence.

So why should either of these have no purpose? Honestly, I can't recall a single thing after or prior to them that has proven them false. None from which wasn't uttered to give the character a sense of dispair or being wortheless, and not to inform them with some sort of real truth.
 
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