The Birth By Sleep Critics Club: not as good as it could be.

[fantasy08]

Finally it's here! Joinage! I beg!

My reasons:

Story- it and the characters had the emotional impact of a puddle of mud. It's the most emotionally empty story in the series in my opinion. It's like the writers said to themselves who cares about character development, emotional investment, and interesting personalities! What we need is more gameplay features! More flash! That's the substance an RPG needs!

On paper TAV's stories seem tragic,but when it came to the actual execution in the game I felt like I was wasting my time with them and their fates. The developers just careened though plot points with not a thought to the characters themselves. It was like they had a mild form of ADD. I never got to soak up a scene. To care. Oh, and TAV are friends? Sorry, didn't buy it. They felt like coworkers to me. Lack of depth will do that.

Terra- has no real reason to act the way he does or do the things he does. His story was just filled with contrived naivety. They tried to take a lot of bits from Riku's story,but they were missing a key ingredient that made Riku's great. Soul. In order for a story to work right writers you do have to give a damn first you know.

Ven- a walking plot device. This wouldn't be so bad if he had some real depth to back it up.

Aqua- felt like the only true reason she was in the story at all was just say they had a girl in the trio. Even Final episode felt tacked on. It's like they knew her story was pointless so they had to make her do something of a bit of note just to say she wasn't completely unnecessary. Another reason why she just seemed tacked on is she lacked an inner and outer conflict of her own.

http://forums.khinsider.com/handheld-entries/154460-tav-disappointment.html
I like how this guy put it. He pretty much hit the damning nail on the head for each character.

Also the Disney worlds attempts at development for them felt really forced. It just seemed like those worlds were really there just so the developers could tell the Disney execs that something of mickey mouse and cheese was indeed in the game. That's another peeve less time should have been spent on Disney and their uninteresting problems, and more on the original characters and theirs. Or at the very least have the Disney problems tie in better with the main one without it being contrived.

The unversed were so lackluster. It's like they just threw them in for TAV could have an excuse to battle something. The heartless and nobodies brought a darkness to the series, and were better executed into the story.

The voice acting for Terra, Aqua and MX was subpar. The first two especially sounded like they were just phoning in their performances the majority of the time. I grew to tolerate their deliverers,but never like.

The three story modes, in my opinion, hurt the characters and the story more than it helped. For gameplay how the story modes were set up was okay, but that's no surprise since that does seem like all the team cared about. However even then they could have did it like the Tales series. Have the whole party be together,but switch to different characters. This way you get to play for everyone, and their fancy moves,but their still together.

Also the dialogue irritated me for the most part. How many times do I have to hear darkness, light, friendship,memories, and connected spewing out of these characters mouths. Show me these themes writers not tell.


However,even with its poor execution I did see the potential of the characters/story so that's why I'm not writing it off as complete crap just yet. I'll have to see what BBS2 has to offer before I bring down the hammer on that final nail.

 

[Relix]

Roku *fist @ desk* I demand the Mirage Arena be listed as a reason.

The Mirage Arena. Sure, it was fun, but all that plot-space gone to waste...

OMG yes. That was waste of space to be honest. All those battles and such could have been replaced with some better sh!t...like idk Jungle Book perhaps lol. Idk but seriously Mirage Arena was not a like for me.

Was anyone else sorta disappointed by Disney Town? I mean it's just me I know but for some reason...I was not enchanted by it. Disney Castle felt more disney than Disney town and the town had all the characters lol then again it could just be my distaste for Huey, Duey, and Louie horrible sportsmanship in the rumble racing.

which brings me to the command boards...was fun the first 2 times to me...then it became a suicide ride of colorful mayhem.

 

[Delsan]

*looks at front page*

I should be listed under mirage arena too.

which brings me to the command boards...was fun the first 2 times to me...then it became a suicide ride of colorful mayhem.

I like the command board. Its a fun way to bring up commands without the burden of leveling them up. Helps me a lot when I'm in the beginning as Aqua. I like everything about it except pete

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

I have a good reason:

LAGUNA WAS NOT THE KING OF MIRAGE ARENA.

 

[fantasy08]

Was anyone else sorta disappointed by Disney Town?

Disappointed? No, I hated it. Most boring and unnecessary world in the game,and that's saying something. At least Mirage Arena was never faking like it was part of the story. However, like Disney town it was worthless. All that space could have been used as development for TAV, and the villains, because god knows they need it.

which brings me to the command boards...was fun the first 2 times to me...then it became a suicide ride of colorful mayhem.

Ah, yes the command boards. After about three I pretty much said to myself so this is boring as hell. Seriously once you've played one board you've pretty much played them all.

 

[rokudamia2]

I have a good reason:

LAGUNA WAS NOT THE KING OF MIRAGE ARENA.

That's covered under lack of ff characters

And welcome fantasy08

 

[Relix]

lol but it's Laguna...he deserves his own slot lol ok maybe not but still when I heard that I was like "come on! what would that have done to make the plot confusing?!

edit: yes i know about the dissida thing..

I like the command board. Its a fun way to bring up commands without the burden of leveling them up. Helps me a lot when I'm in the beginning as Aqua. I like everything about it except pete

leveling them up on the command board was a less burden for you than leveling the ones you wanted at once in the field? especially places like Castle of Dreams and Olympus Coliseum? Nah. The only upside was the exclusive commands on the boards...which somehow were obtainable outside of the command boards...

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

That's covered under lack of ff characters

And welcome fantasy08

Nuh-uh. That is a unique situation. He was definitely going to be in this game if he hadn't been picked for Dissidia.

lol but it's Laguna...he deserves his own slot lol ok maybe not but still when I heard that I was like "come on! what would that have done to make the plot confusing?!

edit: yes i know about the dissida thing..

This. He is epic, and the fact he wasn't in the game was a pretty depressing thing considering he wouldn't have did anything to derail the plot. :<

 

[fantasy08]

How come 'unemotional story and characters' is not a front page reason? I mean did anyone here seriously come out of BBS truly caring about TAV?

More:

-Their friendship lacked depth and therefore felt forced.

-You are technically playing through the same worlds three times.

- Really cheesy dialogue

-Poor execution overall

 

[Sign]

How come 'unemotional story and characters' is not a front page reason? I mean did anyone here seriously come out of BBS truly caring about TAV?

Only Terra. Maybe Ven. Aqua... not at all. But that'll probably change if (and she probably will) she gets her Reverse/Rebirth.

-Their friendship lacked depth and therefore felt forced.

I agree. I can tolerate it because, well, for one thing it's better structured than SRK, but it's too much tell, not show. I want you to show me your amazing friendship that can withstand anything and everything life throws at you, not just tell me about it when you yourself aren't even sure.

-You are technically playing through the same worlds three times.

Strangely, this didn't bother me that much.

- Really cheesy dialogue

I personally thought BBS had one of the best scripts in the series :x

-Poor execution overall

Er, well, it certainly shouldn't be up on that high of a pedastal imo.

Nuh-uh. That is a unique situation. He was definitely going to be in this game if he hadn't been picked for Dissidia.

This. He is epic, and the fact he wasn't in the game was a pretty depressing thing considering he wouldn't have did anything to derail the plot. :<

Considering it's Laguna, it makes me wonder if he'd have been able to do it anyways xD;
BUT STILL, he should've been in there. Duodecim isn't giving him any justice. Well, asides from Lightning, it isn't giving anyone justice.

(Okay, I'll shut up now about it)

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

How come 'unemotional story and characters' is not a front page reason? I mean did anyone here seriously come out of BBS truly caring about TAV?

More:

-Their friendship lacked depth and therefore felt forced.

-You are technically playing through the same worlds three times.

- Really cheesy dialogue

-Poor execution overall

I guess because I like BBS, I did come out feeling emotions for them. And I thought their friendship was a lot less forced than SRK (which is more like SR SK) but it was missing background for them. We just know Terra and Aqua grew up in LoK with Eraqus as their master/pseudo father figure. Then Ven comes around and they watch him sleep for awhile. Then he wakes up and it is like "FRIENDSHIP LETS MAKE VEN NT BE A ZOMBIE!"

There wasn't enough history tying everything together correctly. Just enough information to let you know of certain facts, but not enough to actually make a cohesive backstory.

I found the dialogue to be the best in the series, besides Re:coded that is.

I wasn't bothered by the repetition of the worlds. I was bothered they were really short.

 

[chasespicer056]

Well I love BBS, but I have to admit, I am uncomfortable with MX's reason being curiosity. Though that does make MX that much more insane, so I guess it's a good thing.

Overall I liked the game though. By the way, what's wrong with the Mirage Arena? That actually made the game challenging once the story was over.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

I honestly believe MX has another goal, besides curiosity. Then again, this is Japanese writing and generally their villains never have a true reason for their actions. They want to rule the world...but for what? They want to destroy the world...but for what? That nihilistic concept of villainy is a Japanese storytelling trait, and honestly it is getting pretty tiring and predictable.

FFXIII: Why did the fal'cie want Fang and Vanille to become Ragnarok? To destroy Cocoon. But why? IT MAKES NO SENSE.
FFVII: Why does Sephiroth want to destroy the world? Because his mother said so. Why? WE DON'T KNOW.
BBS: Why does Xehanort want KH? Well what the hell IS Kingdom Hearts? But whatever, he wants to "see what lies beyond the Keyblade War!" Like, what does that MEAN? Do you just not want to die? Do you want to reshape the worlds to your liking? Do you want to make a universe where everybody has pointed ears and is logical? WHAT DO YOU WANT OLD MAN?

 

[Sign]

Well I love BBS, but I have to admit, I am uncomfortable with MX's reason being curiosity. Though that does make MX that much more insane, so I guess it's a good thing.

Overall I liked the game though. By the way, what's wrong with the Mirage Arena? That actually made the game challenging once the story was over.

The Mirage Arena was essentially a waste of space. If they wanted tournaments, we could've had them back at Olympus. Plus, all of the space the arena took up could've been used to expand on the story and provide more underlying details that we actually needed.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

If Laguna had been the King, it would have had more reason to exist. But they left it plotless so it is essentially fail. ):

 

[Theart]

Ironically enough I PREFER Mirage Arena over Olympus Coliseum, and part of it IS because it has no plot.

I LOVED OC in KH1, but for every game onwards, including BBS, that world has aged horridly. Mirage Arena, while being simple in design, has no plot to it, so it's just a place to do the Tournaments and challenges.

 

[fantasy08]

Only Terra. Maybe Ven. Aqua... not at all. But that'll probably change if (and she probably will) she gets her Reverse/Rebirth.

I like TAV in a generic fashion,but I don't care about them at all. If that makes sense. I care, even if it's a little bit, for SR( Kairi , I'm sorry it's impossible), Namine, Diz,RAX, and even the villains(Org, Riku replica). TAV? No. I just couldn't get emotionally attached to them.

I personally thought BBS had one of the best scripts in the series :x

I'm the exact opposite. I thought BBS had one of the worst scripts in the series. If not the worst. Days, in my opinion, had the best. Followed by Re:com. Kh2 would be an honorable mention. Kh1 I'll put on the list if it's a good day. BBS wouldn't even make it. As for Re:coded I haven't played it, or even looked at most of the cutscenes, to give a concrete opinion on it.

And I thought their friendship was a lot less forced than SRK (which is more like SR SK) but it was missing background for them.

I can't really pinpoint which one is more forced then the other since they both are imo. Also you say it's more like Sora/Riku and Sora/Kairi,but it's the same with TAV. It's Ven/Terra and Ven/Aqua.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

I can't really pinpoint which one is more forced then the other since they both are imo. Also you say it's more like Sora/Riku and Sora/Kairi,but it's the same with TAV. It's Ven/Terra and Ven/Aqua.

But it is also Terra/Aqua during the Last Episode.

 

[fantasy08]

But it is also Terra/Aqua during the Last Episode.

LE was like five minutes if that(ignoring the gameplay part). That's not nearly enough exposition for me to say 'oh so that's why you guys are friends'.Where was the rest of the depth for them before it got to that point?
Also Terra, and Ven, pretty much acted like Aqua didn't exist most of the time.

 

[Organization_42]

I'm not going to join, because I just started replaying Ven's story on Proud Mode and I'm having a blast. Originally, I was disappointed in the story execution, but I blame this mostly on high expectations. Practically everyone on KHI was talking about how incredible it was, how the writing was on par with the best games in the series, the characters were deep, the worlds fit better into the story, etc. Oh, and how the story was SO much better than Days. So, with a sigh of relief, I fired up the PSP, sat back, and prepared for some awesome story-telling, the likes of which I hadn't seen since Re:CoM.

Sadly, that wasn't what I got. Mostly because of what fantasy08 just brought up:

How come 'unemotional story and characters' is not a front page reason? I mean did anyone here seriously come out of BBS truly caring about TAV?

Well, I did, but I really only cared about TAV on an individual level. I love Terra, I love Ven, and I love Aqua, but what really bugged me about the story was how often we were told that TAV was the best of friends. It breaks one of the biggest rules in writing: show, don't tell. Especially when you're writing for a movie, TV show, or video game where things can be expressed visually. RAX had similar problems with this rule, although I found that slightly more forgiveable because, as a Nobody with no memories of his previous life, it was understandable that Roxas would keep bluntly stating how he felt about things; he didn't know any other way of expressing it. Likewise, Axel had to be pretty blunt with him too and outright state that they were best friends, because otherwise, Roxas wasn't going to get it.

With TAV, there's no excuse. When they're not fighting their way through various Disney worlds, they won't stop talking about how they either can't be pulled apart from one another, or how awful it is that they're fighting and they're terrified that they'll never be friends again. Seriously, guys? You had one argument. ONE. That's something that friends will do occasionally. It's not the end of the world.

Not to mention, their stories are pretty inconsistent. How come Ven was the one who heard awful things about Terra in Dwarf Woodlands and Enchanted Dominion, but Aqua is the one who claims to have "seen" what Terra's done on other worlds? If their roles had been reversed, it would have been a brilliant piece of storytelling: playing as Aqua and thinking that Terra was responsible for attacking some poor, defenseless princesses, and then playing as Terra and seeing how that wasn't the case at all. Not to mention, "Gee, maybe Ven's growing up and it's okay that he left home." Next world: "Ven, go home!" Ooookay. SE, you know what's all the rage these days? Plot continuity.

Terra goes throughout Disney Town, Olympus Coliseum, and Neverland learning that there are other ways to use his powers rather than resorting to the darkness. He learns in Deep Space how much he truly loves and needs his friends. Then he goes to see MX and it's, "OOPS, GONNA USE THE DARKNESS AGAIN!" -_-

Aqua goes through Castle of Dreams, Disney Town, Olympus Coliseum (where Zack outright told her how Terra had SAVED HIM from the darkness), and Deep Space hearing evidence that Terra wasn't falling off the slippery slope quite as much as she feared. Then she goes to Destiny Islands and starts talking about how horrible it is that she and Terra are surely going to have to fight each other. What.

Ven's is the only one that's pretty consistent the whole way through. Thank you, Ven. And I suppose Terra's is okay because he was tricked into believing that Eraqus was about to kill one of his best friends. But on THAT note...

...why wasn't the freakin' x-blade mentioned earlier? For suspenseful purposes? Idk, I guess so, but it just seems so random at the end. "Hiya Ven! Having fun in the Disney worlds? Oh btw, your heart is the tool I need to start the apocalypse. MUAHAHAHAHA." I know that TAV not knowing these things was crucial to MX's plans...although, maybe it wasn't, because Ven ended up fighting Vanitas anyway with full knowledge that it was what MX wanted him to do...but some hints would have been nice. Like the scene between ME and MX. Look at that scene on its own:

​

Watching that scene, we know MX wants to forge some kind of ultimate weapon and start a new Keyblade war. But does he say anything about how he plans to go about doing this, or how to forge an x-blade? Nope. Which means we could have had a scene like that earlier in the game (maybe even between him and Braig with a different outcome?); a scene that would explain MX's goal without explaining how he intends to incorporate TAV and Vanitas into his plans, thus retaining the suspense. I would've preferred that other than "TAV goes through Friendship Drama and then finds out in Act 3 that they have to stop an apocalypse." Not to mention, we only hear the most about it in Ven's story. Terra and Aqua are pretty much hearing about it for the first time. So neither one of them, like me, felt the urge to stop the fight and yell, "Wait a minute...why are we fighting? WHAT IS AN X-BLADE???"

tl;dr: The plot continuity in BBS was often EPIC FAIL and the story/character development could have been tighter. SHOW. DON'T TELL. Sora, Donald, and Goofy managed to convey that they were the best of friends without stating it all the time. But for some reason, I feel like most of the other KH friendships have never matched their standards.

...hmmm, maybe I should join after all. I still find it to be an incredibly enjoyable game overall. The gameplay is more fun than any other entry in the KH series, the music is enthralling, the graphics are beautiful, and the characters themselves are still very likeable, IMO. Not to mention, the Disney worlds WERE executed much better this time; if their plots had actually contributed to TAV's character development instead of being more like Aesop Amnesia, this game could have been, hands-down, the best in the series.

Not to mention...

Vanitas in general

BLASPHEMY!​

...okay, I realize that we mostly love him 'cause he's evil!Sora...but that's just it! evil!Sora! C'mon, it doesn't get much more epic than that! :wink: