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The Abortion Exception



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Phoenix

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Whether or not a soul enters, or exits this world, it is not up to you. It shouldn't be up to you or anybody else.

Way to force your religious idea of a "soul" on us. Never mind the fact that the Bible never says "zygotes have souls".

If it is going to live, let it be, regardless of the circumstances of it's birth. Give it a chance to do something great, or do something horrific.

This bothers me. It's like, unless you can make up to every single tortured, raped and murdered person that suffered because of, say, Hitler, you really shouldn't be talking about potential brutalities as if they were so trivial.

It's not like people abort because of this, or that it would be a good reason to do so, but your reasoning is kind of twisted.

Shouldn't be your call either way.

Nor yours. It's the individual person's call, because it's the woman's reproductive system, and it's her choice to whether or not keep something that amounts to a parasite.

If you get pregnant and you want to keep it, then you're more than welcome. But don't say that a mass of a few hundred, or thousand, cells has the same right an actual person does.
 

Nirv

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Personally I think people should usually have the baby and give it up for adoption, but it's their choice if they want to abort at the end of the day. What does annoy me about pro-life though is when they argue that a baby should never be aborted even when it's a massive risk to the mother's health, or that the baby wont be alive for long. I dunno if anyone knows the Ms. D case, but basically she was a ward of the state and she wanted an abortion because when her child would be born it would be born missing parts of it's body and would be in agonizing pain it's entire life which would last about 6 hours tops. But because abortion is illegal here and she was a ward of the state the government were trying to stop her going to Britain to get it aborted, anyways my point is during this entire thing pro-life people were going ape that she should have the baby and that any creature should be given life no matter how short etc.
 

pwninator

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I honestly don't understand how people on this thread can be so condescending and arrogant towards the beliefs and opinions of others. I know by saying that I am Pro-Life and have conservative views on this matter is going to begin a maelstrom of belief bashing and inappropriate jeers. I'm not trying to change anyone's views I just feel that people spend all this time considering whether to abort the baby or not, when they could be using this time to find adoptive parents. I always try to think of it like what if you or I where one of the aborted embryos, or maybe someone close to you like a brother or a sister. I just see abortion as a selfish way of getting yourself out of a situation you created on your own, this mentality has sadly carried over to many areas in today's society.
 

Lifes.Lover

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Here's how I feel about it.

No matter what the reason is, it's the mother's choice.

Fetuses are parasites. They do nothing but suck the life out of the mother: every vitamin, every nutrient: it all goes to the baby. Why do you think women are put on pre-natal vitamins?

Being pregnant can be extremely taxing on a woman. My sister's second pregnancy was hell on her body. Her immune system went to crap, she was constantly exhausted, and she had nightmares every time she went to bed: nightmares of her husband leaving her, the baby being malformed, the baby being sick or diseased. She had to deal with daily nausea, and a taxing weight upon her body that didn't let her leave her bed for most days. My sister didn't get rid of it because she'd wanted the baby. But what about those who had to go through it and didn't even want the baby?

Or what about the women who experience ectopic pregnancies? Should they be forced to carry that baby to term, at risk to both the baby and the mother, simply because there are those who feel that a bunch of cells have any right to exist when they're not even breathing?

And in the case of rape, I don't blame a mother for getting rid of it. Why live through nine months of pure hell to bare a child that you didn't want, never wanted, and hate? Even if you do put it up for adoption, you still have to deal with the nine months of caring for something you hate.

This kind of decision should be left to the mother and to her immediate family. The consequences of this decision shall only weigh upon the mother, not any pro-life believers.
 

Ehres

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I'm lenient in my views, I guess. Or at least I don't give enough of a shit to really be bothered about it. First of all, I think that a woman should be able to choose whatever the fuck she wants to do with her body. In the circumstances of rape I'm all for her getting rid of the child because of the traumatic experience associated with it. You might bring up the argument that the baby didn't ask for the mother to be raped and didn't ask for itself to be conceived, but at the end of the day, a basic instinct is self-preservation. If a woman feels that a baby is threatening her feelings or her sanity or how she is going to live her life because of the rape, I'm fine with the abortion. I'm also fine with a mother aborting a child if it has severe disabilities such as being born brain dead or having a painful, unenjoyable life where death would be kinder. Not wanting your child to be put through absolute hell in its life? I wouldn't see that as cruel.

On the other hand, I'm not completely in agreement with a woman aborting a baby which is the product of a one-night-stand. My policy on this is that if you make the choice to open your legs and not use a condom, knowing full well that you have a chance of getting pregnant, then you can also give birth to the child and raise it. It shouldn't have to be on the receiving end of your dumb, thoughtless actions fueled by the fact that you need a fuck and you'll sleep with any man just to get some. But if she wants to abort it, then she can go ahead and do it because at the end of the day, it's her life filled with guilt, not mine.

So in conclusion, I'm really pro-choice, no matter how the woman got pregnant. I mean, I think it's unethical to flush a baby out of your system after a one-night-stand, but who am I to stop it? It's her body, she can do whatever she wants to it. As far as I'm concerned, a baby is just a collection of cells that grow into a living thing over a period of time. You can preach to me about how I'm a bad, wrong person and all that but don't give me biblical bullshit about souls.
 

Phoenix

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I just feel that people spend all this time considering whether to abort the baby or not, when they could be using this time to find adoptive parents.

Because we don't have enough orphaned kids, right?

I always try to think of it like what if you or I where one of the aborted embryos, or maybe someone close to you like a brother or a sister. I just see abortion as a selfish way of getting yourself out of a situation you created on your own, this mentality has sadly carried over to many areas in today's society

And if you're pregnant, you're more than welcome to do whatever the hell you want to do. What pro-choice want is not have your beliefs literally forced on us.
 

pwninator

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Because we don't have enough orphaned kids, right?

If we can go and adopt kids from countries like Africa and China, obviously we don't have many available for adoption here.

And if you're pregnant, you're more than welcome to do whatever the hell you want to do. What pro-choice want is not have your beliefs literally forced on us.

I'm not forcing anything on you, stop trying to use that. I'm tellin you how I see it and I am curious to why you are so against it considering that I am not using religion, but rather logic.
 

Orion

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I'm not forcing anything on you, stop trying to use that. I'm tellin you how I see it and I am curious to why you are so against it considering that I am not using religion, but rather logic.

Somehow I just fail to see pro-life as the more logical option.
 

pwninator

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∞;4532965 said:
Somehow I just fail to see pro-life as the more logical option.

Well thats your opinion, I'm not gonna say your wrong but I just disagree.
I just hate the way you guys act towards us like we are these close-minded idealogical know-it-alls.
Thats not true at all, I do understand there are some grey areas on this subject, but I personally just feel very strongly toward my position.
 

Monkey

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i was anti aboriton till i found out my mom had an abortion before giving birth to me, but apparently that was for good reason, something about medical complications
 

pwninator

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If there are "grey areas" in your argument, you don't feel "strongly" about it.

Grey areas in the discussion, not in my feeling on the subject. The issue of rape and incest are the areas I am refering to, many feel that these are the main exceptions. Another area, which personally repulses me is women having an abortion after finding out the child will have a disability like down syndrome or many other kind of handicaps.
 

Annoyance

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Grey areas in the discussion, not in my feeling on the subject. The issue of rape and incest are the areas I am refering to, many feel that these are the main exceptions. Another area, which personally repulses me is women having an abortion after finding out the child will have a disability like down syndrome or many other kind of handicaps.
That's a parental choice.

It's a personal thing, but having a child with a defect scares the living hell out of me. I want kids in the future, but I can't think of how I'll go through raising a child with down syndrome. I'm just not able to do it.
Plus, those classes don't come cheap. Those short buses, the classes, the extra courses, doctor visits.
It isn't fun.

Granted, some disabilities I think the parents can suck it up. But for others... I just don't want to be a parent and put my own child through torment like that.
 

Phoenix

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If we can go and adopt kids from countries like Africa and China, obviously we don't have many available for adoption here.

Excuse me?

I'm not forcing anything on you, stop trying to use that. I'm tellin you how I see it and I am curious to why you are so against it considering that I am not using religion, but rather logic.

You know what pro-life is, right? It's the position that, if someone gets pregnant, you will force the person to have the baby. You are aware of this, right?

Saying that you would never abort is not pro-life, people from both camps can think this. Someone who believes in pro-choice, however, would say that they're not going to force other people to live their lives in a certain way.

How is forcing someone to deliver a baby not shoving beliefs down someone's throat? It's the very definition of belief-shoving!
 

Soughtdragon

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Honestly, I don't care. I used to know a girl in my highschool that had multiple abortions almost as a form of birth control, and I didn't care then, of course, neither did she. If she wants to have so many abortions then that is her deal and she'll have to deal with those repercussions, whatever those may be, later, or maybe not, just depends on the person. People can argue forever and it doesn't really solve a thing.
 

krexia

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Grey areas in the discussion, not in my feeling on the subject. The issue of rape and incest are the areas I am refering to, many feel that these are the main exceptions. Another area, which personally repulses me is women having an abortion after finding out the child will have a disability like down syndrome or many other kind of handicaps.
Saying things like, "It's okay to abort in cases of rape, but not one night stands," is begging the fundamental question here. That question being, "Is abortion intrinsically morally wrong?"

If it isn't, abortion should be acceptable under all circumstances at the sole discretion of the mother.

If abortion is intrinsically morally wrong, the next question is, "Why?"

Yes, a foetus is living - but taking life isn't morally wrong. We spray spiders in our homes, we wolf down cheeseburgers, we kill countless animals for sport, food, research and more every second of every day, and society at large has no qualms about it. When we say that 'killing is wrong' we're talking about killing human beings; we're the only special case to whom the right to life applies.

So the debate comes down to a question of what constitutes a human being. Some people hold superstitions about 'souls' or other intangible unprovable evidence of humanity, but such ideas can not hold any kind of weight in legal, practical scenarios.

In society at large, a human being is defined primarily by their mind, specifically their capacity for consciousness and sentience. This is why, even in countries that prohibit euthanasia, it's okay to harvest organs from a human body whose brain has been irreparably destroyed. Whole-brain death is legally considered death of the human being, even if their body survives or is kept alive artificially. Without the capacity for consciousness, no human being exists.

"Current neurology suggests that a foetus doesn't possess enough neural structure to harbor consciousness until about 26 weeks, when it first seems to react to pain. Before that, the fetal neural structure is about as sophisticated as that of a sea slug and its EEG as flat and unorganized as that of someone brain-dead." (Source, paraphrased from Michael Gazzaniga's The Ethical Brain).

That is, according to current scientific evidence coupled with societal and legal views of humanity, a foetus is not a human being before about 26 weeks into a pregnancy. Aborting a foetus at 22 weeks is destroying life, but it is not killing a human being.

Given all this, I have to wonder on what basis - other than the entirely untenable position derived from the supposed existence of 'souls' - one might claim that early-term abortion is intrinsically morally wrong.
 
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