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Terra's Heartless?



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Korai

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I was watching a video on youtube,and I thought it was very interesting. Basically what it said was that ansems guardian could actually be terra's heartless, being controlled by ansem. so, with ansem completely defeated by kh2, (this includes the fragments that survived his initial destruction in kh1) what do you think the guardian is doing now? is the guardian ansem from the past uses in kh3d also from the past, or is he the guardian from the current time?
 

billyzanesucks

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That theory would be completely acceptable were it not for the fact that Terra-Xehanort summoned the Guardian in BbS, before he became a Heartless (Ansem, Seeker of Darkness).

I can think of three reasonable scenarios for the Guardian's existence and continual attachment to Terra-Xehanort:
1. It's just some random Heartless that Xehanort has bent to his will (this brings into question why MX never used it).
2. It's an artificial manifestation of Xehanort's darkness.
3. It's the form that Vanitas's darkness took after his defeat, which was drawn to Xehanort due to having a piece of Xehanort's heart.

I feel like #1 and #2 would come off as poor and irrelevant explanations. #3 would better match the timing of the Guardian's first appearance.
 

Korai

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That theory would be completely acceptable were it not for the fact that Terra-Xehanort summoned the Guardian in BbS, before he became a Heartless (Ansem, Seeker of Darkness).

I can think of three reasonable scenarios for the Guardian's existence and continual attachment to Terra-Xehanort:
1. It's just some random Heartless that Xehanort has bent to his will (this brings into question why MX never used it).
2. It's an artificial manifestation of Xehanort's darkness.
3. It's the form that Vanitas's darkness took after his defeat, which was drawn to Xehanort due to having a piece of Xehanort's heart.

I feel like #1 and #2 would come off as poor and irrelevant explanations. #3 would better match the timing of the Guardian's first appearance.
here is the composition of terranort: terras body, made live by xehanort's soul, commanded by xehanorts heart, and terra's heart is also in there, but it is being held down by xehanorts. xehanort has great skill with controlling the darkness. over the course of BBS, xehanort was building up the darkness in terras heart so that when he posessed terra, he would be able to use terras darkness to hold down or otherwise control terras heart. however, terras heart ended up being able to resist xehanort better than MX expected. (due to eraqus's presence in terras heart) i believe that what happened in the battle aqua v terranort is this: xehanort used terras darkness to turn his heart into a heartless, but terra still resisted, even as a heartless. perhaps xehanort was not "summoning" the guardian, rather he was trying to expel it (note that it comes out of his chest) so that he could still have enough control of terras body to fight aqua, and due to terras new heartless nature, he couldnt help but aid xehanort. this "terras heartless" theory is also supported in the cutscene after aqua defeats him. xehanort says: "stop fighting back!" speaking to terra. he then says: "this'll teach you... get out of my heart!" and stabs himself with his keyblade, attempting to force terra from his body. immediately after he stabs himself, he drops the keyblade, and the guardian appears behind him. I'll link a video of this battle and cutscene here for reference.
 

billyzanesucks

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here is the composition of terranort: terras body, made live by xehanort's soul, commanded by xehanorts heart, and terra's heart is also in there, but it is being held down by xehanorts. xehanort has great skill with controlling the darkness. over the course of BBS, xehanort was building up the darkness in terras heart so that when he posessed terra, he would be able to use terras darkness to hold down or otherwise control terras heart. however, terras heart ended up being able to resist xehanort better than MX expected. (due to eraqus's presence in terras heart) i believe that what happened in the battle aqua v terranort is this: xehanort used terras darkness to turn his heart into a heartless, but terra still resisted, even as a heartless. perhaps xehanort was not "summoning" the guardian, rather he was trying to expel it (note that it comes out of his chest) so that he could still have enough control of terras body to fight aqua, and due to terras new heartless nature, he couldnt help but aid xehanort. this "terras heartless" theory is also supported in the cutscene after aqua defeats him. xehanort says: "stop fighting back!" speaking to terra. he then says: "this'll teach you... get out of my heart!" and stabs himself with his keyblade, attempting to force terra from his body. immediately after he stabs himself, he drops the keyblade, and the guardian appears behind him. I'll link a video of this battle and cutscene here for reference.
I don't believe it was ever suggested that Terra-Xehanort held Xehanort's soul rather than Terra's (the Lingering Sentiment was said to contain Terra's will and emotions, not his soul). Also, Xehanort's line about him fighting back doesn't particularly suggest that the Guardian was Terra's darkness; just that Terra was fighting back.
 

Korai

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I don't believe it was ever suggested that Terra-Xehanort held Xehanort's soul rather than Terra's (the Lingering Sentiment was said to contain Terra's will and emotions, not his soul).
im pretty sure that "will","spirit", and "soul" are all interchangeable in the kingdom hearts universe.
Also, Xehanort's line about him fighting back doesn't particularly suggest that the Guardian was Terra's darkness; just that Terra was fighting back.
i meant that terra was fighting back as a heartless inside terranort
 

billyzanesucks

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im pretty sure that "will","spirit", and "soul" are all interchangeable in the kingdom hearts universe.
There's still nothing to confirm it, as far as I know.

i meant that terra was fighting back as a heartless inside terranort
I know what you meant, but my point is that Xehanort could have easily been referring to Terra's heart itself, which would be the default hypothesis in that situation.
 

Korai

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I know what you meant, but my point is that Xehanort could have easily been referring to Terra's heart itself, which would be the default hypothesis in that situation.
i dont know if you know this, its not very well explained in the game and it actually took me quite a while to figure this out, but heartless dont "come from" the heart, a heartless actually IS a heart, corrupted by darkness. if the guardian is terras heartless, that means that it IS terras heart, corrupted by darkness.
There's still nothing to confirm it, as far as I know.
actually i think something about it was written in one of the secret ansem reports, let me check

*edit: heres an excerpt from the secret ansems report 4:
Three elements combine to create a life: a heart, a soul, and a body.But what of the soul and body left behind when the heart is lost?When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves?A being does not perish when its heart leaves its body. The heart alone disappears into the darkness.
three elements. that means that if terras body and heart are seperate from the lingering armor whatchamacallit, there is only one element left over, the soul. it is simply referred to with different names like will and spirit
 
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billyzanesucks

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i dont know if you know this, its not very well explained in the game and it actually took me quite a while to figure this out, but heartless dont "come from" the heart, a heartless actually IS a heart, corrupted by darkness. if the guardian is terras heartless, that means that it IS terras heart, corrupted by darkness.
That's only true of Terra-Xehanort's and Sora's Heartless. Only someone who willingly becomes a Heartless retains their heart and selfhood. Other Heartless are simply mindless and impulsive.
 

Korai

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That's only true of Terra-Xehanort's and Sora's Heartless. Only someone who willingly becomes a Heartless retains their heart and selfhood. Other Heartless are simply mindless and impulsive.
that describes their nature and how they act, but not their actual composition. all heartless, pureblood and emblem, are simply hearts corrupted by darkness. the ones who give in willingly retain their selfhood, but they all have the same composition, much like the nobodies. they are all bodies and souls devoid of hearts upon birth (with the exception of some of the organization members), but the stronger ones retain their selfhood. otherwise all nobodies have the same composition. (at first)
 

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*edit: heres an excerpt from the secret ansems report 4:
three elements. that means that if terras body and heart are seperate from the lingering armor whatchamacallit, there is only one element left over, the soul. it is simply referred to with different names like will and spirit
That doesn't include the sub-components of the heart, such as memories and emotions. As I mentioned in the other thread, the LS has Terra's mind, which both bodiless (sentient Heartless) and heartless (Nobodies) have been shown to possess, so the mind is exclusive to the heart, body nor soul. The same is true of memories; CoM tells us that memories are contained within their heart, but Nobodies retain the memories of their previous lives despite having lost their hearts.
 

Korai

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That doesn't include the sub-components of the heart, such as memories and emotions. As I mentioned in the other thread, the LS has Terra's mind, which both bodiless (sentient Heartless) and heartless (Nobodies) have been shown to possess, so the mind is exclusive to the heart, body nor soul. The same is true of memories; CoM tells us that memories are contained within their heart, but Nobodies retain the memories of their previous lives despite having lost their hearts.
not all nobodies are lacking a heart. i am of the belief that roxas was born already containing ventus's sleeping heart, and xemnas's speech at the end of soras story in kh3d suggests that if a body does not contain a heart, it will spawn and nurture a new one, no matter what. i think that axel meeting roxas caused him to spawn his own heart, and the same goes for xion. xemnas, xigbar, and saix all contain part of xehanort's heart, and most of the other members spawned hearts just because of the nature of the body to make a new one in the absence of a heart. however, i do think that lexeaus is an example of a nobody that DIDNT grow a new heart, because he never really showed any emotions, even upon his death. xaldin may also be an example. though he did scream upon his death, it was probably just from pain, not fear
 

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im pretty sure that "will","spirit", and "soul" are all interchangeable in the kingdom hearts universe.
Not necessarily because in kh the soul is the battery of the body. As mentioned in the reports in kh2 life consists of a heart, body and soul. The soul give the body life, any body lacking a soul is a dead one (or as close to dead as kh can get).

It'd be more accurate to say that will, spirit and consciousness are interchangeable.
 

Korai

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Not necessarily because in kh the soul is the battery of the body. As mentioned in the reports in kh2 life consists of a heart, body and soul. The soul give the body life, any body lacking a soul is a dead one (or as close to dead as kh can get).
is the lingering will not considered living?
 

Korai

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Not really seeing as how it's just armor that is being animated by the lingering will of it's master.
i suppose there isnt really a correct answer until nomura actually says what it is but i always saw it as a suit of armor being animated by terras soul

but this thread isnt about the lingering will. what do you guys think about the whole guardian being terras heartless theory?
 

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not all nobodies are lacking a heart. i am of the belief that roxas was born already containing ventus's sleeping heart, and xemnas's speech at the end of soras story in kh3d suggests that if a body does not contain a heart, it will spawn and nurture a new one, no matter what. i think that axel meeting roxas caused him to spawn his own heart, and the same goes for xion. xemnas, xigbar, and saix all contain part of xehanort's heart, and most of the other members spawned hearts just because of the nature of the body to make a new one in the absence of a heart. however, i do think that lexeaus is an example of a nobody that DIDNT grow a new heart, because he never really showed any emotions, even upon his death. xaldin may also be an example. though he did scream upon his death, it was probably just from pain, not fear
We're clearly not on the same page here. This is my point: a secondary component (such as a mind or memories) of a being can be transferred outside of the primary component (such as the heart) from which it originates to a space within another being that lacks a similar component to the original primary component of the first being. I realize all of this may be very confusing, so here's an example:

Josh (first being) is a person with a strong heart (original primary component). Josh's heart falls into darkness. Josh leaves behind a Nobody, Joshx (other being). Joshx retains memories (secondary component) of his previous life, but, while he has yet to grow a heart, his memories are kept in a space outside of a heart.

What does this mean for the Lingering Sentiment/Will? It means that Terra's mind (secondary component) can be transferred to an empty space in the LS from Terra's heart or body (primary components) regardless of Xehanort's ownership of those primary components. "Mind"/"will" could easily be a secondary component rather than another name for the soul. As we know that the likelihood of a Nobody developing from an abandoned body and soul is dependent on the strength of the heart that went with them, it's pretty much a fact that sentience and will depend on a strong heart, so it would be fair to say that the LS was created as a result of the will of Terra's heart in particular.

that describes their nature and how they act, but not their actual composition. all heartless, pureblood and emblem, are simply hearts corrupted by darkness. the ones who give in willingly retain their selfhood, but they all have the same composition, much like the nobodies. they are all bodies and souls devoid of hearts upon birth (with the exception of some of the organization members), but the stronger ones retain their selfhood. otherwise all nobodies have the same composition. (at first)
That's irrelevant to your argument. If Terra's heart (as it originally was) has no control over its Heartless counterpart, then it has no ability to independently fight back.
 

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i suppose there isnt really a correct answer until nomura actually says what it is but i always saw it as a suit of armor being animated by terras soul

but this thread isnt about the lingering will. what do you guys think about the whole guardian being terras heartless theory?
I think it's terras darkness manifested into a weapon. It has feelings, and I suppose a heart based off of that split second of "pain" it looked it was feeling.
 

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I really like that theory and it's very plausible that it's true. If Terra gave in to the darkness to save Aqua from Xehanort like Sora did in KH I he should still have retained his mind with the help of Eraqus and been able to fight back.

Also I think it was rjk42 who said that heartless all start of the same when they are first created and I just wanted to add that the more darkness you have in your heart the stronger the heartless become (already at creation).
Terra had a lot of darkness in his heart so his heartless should be pretty strong, this might also be the reason why he can't control himself and Xehanort is able to use him in fights but Terra's heart is still strong enough to put up a resistance and keep his mind.
 

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Also I think it was rjk42 who said that heartless all start of the same when they are first created and I just wanted to add that the more darkness you have in your heart the stronger the heartless become (already at creation).
yeah, when they're born they all have different levels of darkness, but i meant they are all made of the same materials (regardless of potency) upon birth
 
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