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Sweetheart, you can fcuk another woman, but DO NOT spoon with her.



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Read this article, and then we'll talk:

'Sugarbabe' favors negotiated infidelity - CNN.com

This is an issue that's been at the forefront of my mind for a couple of weeks now. After stumbling upon this article earlier today, I decided that I wanted to hear a few more opinions on the subject, so let's discuss it.

Do you agree with the overall premise of the article? What do you think of swinger relationships where outside sex is permitted? Have you ever been in such a relationship, and if so, did it work out for you?
If not, would you be willing to participate in one?

I don't know. I really don't know. Maybe it's an inconvenient combination of insecurity, jealousy and territorialism, maybe it's the result of two decades of Judeo-Christian cultural and moral conditioning, maybe it's nonsensical, primitive alpha-male instincts that I can't seem to abandon -- I just know that I could not handle infidelity in a relationship, negotiated or otherwise. Regardless of how objectively I want to look at this, my girl is my girl, and so long as that social contract persists, there are certain parts of ourselves that we simply do not share with anybody else. It seems to me that when we start sleeping with other people, we dissolve into something indistinguishable from glorified fcukbuddies. That's not the kind of relationship that I've ever wanted to be a part of, nor one that I think the average couple is capable of sustaining in the long term. But I'm curious to see how other people feel about it, and doing my best to keep an open mind.
 

LongLiveLife

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Biologically speaking, monogamy reduces a species' chances of survival, and it is hardwired into our genetics to procreate with as many partners as possible. Humans are of the three to five percent of mammals who form lifelong pair bonds. Because of this, I agree with the premise that Nature has built us to be polygamous.

That said, I believe we have advanced as a society, and we are no longer the same animals fending for food and territory in the wild that we were aeons past. We should not succumb to our biological urges so freely. As such, I completely agree with this:

my girl is my girl, and so long as that social contract persists, there are certain parts of ourselves that we simply do not share with anybody else.

I feel awkward when people who claim to love each other so freely allow their partners to engage in outside sex. For to me, sex is, above all else, an expression of love and intimacy between people who care for each other. To have it with someone you care little for when you are already in a relationship makes no sense to me. I will never condemn another's choice, but neither will I condone this behavior.

Perhaps it is because I have never experienced firsthand this type of relationship that I make such lofty judgments. But as it stands now, I would be extremely uncomfortable if a partner suggested we try this, and I would even more firmly refuse to participate.
 

Ulti

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Like it was said, we have some basic instinct to mate with multiple partners. But this instinct is down to where we kill to eat to survive. It isn't as strong anymore. That kind of relationship does not function in our society. We have developed single unions. To suddenly allow your partner to sleep with others just makes the relationship null and void. Why bother hanging onto someone when you can just fuck anyone you like? Steady relationships are supposed to decrease our urges to just one person. We consider it wrong to be in a relationship and sleep with others. It just isn't how we work.

I know for certain that I just want one person to be in my life. Sleeping around with others ruins the current relationship as we do not hold that person as high anymore.
 

Wehrmacht

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Biologically speaking, polygamy makes more sense in terms of guaranteeing the survival of the species. In our case, monogamy is nothing more than a cultural construct that's part of a much bigger social contract that we've been abiding for a long time now.

Survival of the human species isn't really much of a concern now though. If anything, we're too good at keeping ourselves alive.

I've never been in a relationship of any kind myself, so this isn't really something that I think about very often. I guess for now I'd have to agree with Sam, but I'll have to ponder the matter a little more.
 
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Oberon

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In a lot of ways we need to look at our overall values of dating and relating to one-another through this idea of "dating" and "having a relationship." Currently having a monogamous relationship is viewed as being correct, but what Holly Hill is experimenting in is very interesting. I really wonder what it would be like for people to view relationships this way on a large scale. Would it be better or not? This is what I'm unsure of. Would it be better to allow people to be as free as they can be, letting them get out and experience other people despite having a "partner"? That "partner" begins to sound more like a calling card when you aren't getting any from other people, tbh.

Do you agree with the overall premise of the article? What do you think of swinger relationships where outside sex is permitted?
Personally, no. I'm suffering from a similar case you are. My girl is my girl, I'd have issues giving my girl permission to twat around with other penises. This mentality of "possessiveness" feels a bit parasitic now that I look at it. Kinda selfish too. Our values are kinda weird, or maybe I'm just looking at it weird.

Have you ever been in such a relationship, and if so, did it work out for you? If not, would you be willing to participate in one?
I wouldn't be the against the idea of trying it, at the very very least. It sounds like an open relationship which, when I think about it, is actually a very mature type of relationship. But because we have the burden of emotional attachment and with our current value systems, I don't know how it'd hold up.

The idea of a monogamous relationship seems much more relevant to me because it's what I grew up thinking is correct. Everything else seems okay too (open relationships and such), but I doubt I could manage to hold myself in one for more than... a month or two. Actually scratch that I don't think I could do one at all. lol
 
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I don't agree with this concept at all (though the 'spooning' part made me chuckle a bit).

I feel like if two people are truly in love (and thus in tune with each other's wants and desires), they won't feel the need to go have a prostitute serve one of them. But to be completely honest, in this point in my life, it's not hard to get sexual with girls. So I feel like this won't be a problem I'll truly understand until I get a bit older. But I feel like sex with a girl for pure sexual release would be a bit mechanical, and would lack a lot of the ardor of 'real' sex.

Plus, this breaks most of the moral boundaries I have, so I can't really support it there either.

edit: thought I'd mention, I've been in a 'friends with benefits' relationship before (itt fuckbuddies), and that was one of the least satisfying things I've ever been a part of. So I guess coming from that angle, I can't see how I would enjoy something like this.
 

The Big Lovin'

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I have mixed feelings about the article. Cheating cannot be justified. It seems that the words 'self-control' and 'loyalty' are lost somewhere. With that aside, yes, I do agree with the article that, depending on the people, that an open-relationship can work just as well, if not better, than traditional relationships. I don't believe this because they're open sexually, I believe this simply because there is communication. Sex may be the perk, but it can be substituted for almost anything. The couple that can communicate their thoughts and needs can work together rather than the couple who just abides by some unspoken code and struggles to read the 'signs'. People define what love is themselves. They define what makes a relationship worthy of -emotional- investment and what importance the -physical- aspect of it is or what that even means. Personally, I am A-okay with open relationships. I was recently in one which didn't work out too well because a lack of communication. It wasn't the sex aspect, it was other issues with our relationship that just didn't work. Sex is sex. Love is love. If you want to make the two synonymous, that is on you. Sex can be purely physical. Love can be purely emotional.
 

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There's nothing in The Big Lovin's post that I don't agree with, and this, too, is coming from someone who has not only partaken in an open relationship, but has been maintaining one for more than two years. Of course there have been a lot of bumps along the way, but it's true that communicativeness is absolutely the key to getting over them. I've been very lucky to have found the very best friend in my man, and making love with him has always been a hugely different experience in comparison to any casual sexual encounters: A fusion of the emotional and the physical, as opposed to just the physical gratification by itself.

And honestly? The idea that sex should be so definitive of a relationship has always seemed a little shallow to me anyway. But that's me.
 

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I personally think that for some people being poly can be a sexual orientation, just like being gay or being straight or whatever:

I believe that being poly is as much hardwired into me as being bisexual is; it's part of my personality. I naturally form close emotional bonds with lots of people, and I need all of those relationships to make me really happy and fulfilled. I also feel a lot of anxiety at the thought of trying to fulfill all of the emotional and physical needs of another person; it just seems like too much pressure to me, since my own experience is that no one person can do all of that for me. It is certainly possible to be in a poly relationship or lifestyle without feeling that way -- my husband says that he'd be okay being either monogamous or polyamorous, and a lot of other people in our community also feel that they have adapted polyamory rather than being born that way. It's a matter of personal experience and understanding.

BUT. There is a huge difference between cheating and being in a poly/open relationship.

The highest value of the poly community is honest communication. If you're lying to any of your partners about the nature of your relationship, it's not poly. Not all poly households feel the need to "clear" every new partner or activity with each other, but it's pretty common practice; most of us have pretty regular talks about how our relationships are going and whether we feel okay with them. If you feel jealous or neglected or otherwise angsty in a poly relationship, it's generally considered a good idea to talk about it with your partner right away and try to work out the situation as maturely as possible. A lot of the time just talking about feelings of jealousy can actually go a long way towards exorcising them. Drama sometimes happens, but for the most part we try to avoid it by communicating as openly as we can. A lot of us are really insulted by the use of the word "cheating" to refer to what we do, because "cheating" implies lying and trickery, and that's the opposite of what we're about.

I think it's not very good to stereotype men and say 'ALL MEN WILL CHEAT CAUSE IT'S IN THEIR NATURE,' like the article did, too. Maybe I'm naive, but I'd like to believe that there are men out there who really do find fulfilment in a steady monogamous relationship. I think it's just like any other thing relating to human sexuality; individual and personal.
 
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I think it's not very good to stereotype men and say 'ALL MEN WILL CHEAT CAUSE IT'S IN THEIR NATURE,' like the article did, too. Maybe I'm naive, but I'd like to believe that there are men out there who really do find fulfilment in a steady monogamous relationship. I think it's just like any other thing relating to human sexuality; individual and personal.
I didn't like how the article assumed the "nature" of men that way, either. Even if MOST men are lying, cheating bastards, we need to take into account the value systems and culture we live in. Sometimes the culture almost -wants- you to do those things. I mean, shit, it's considered a good thing that a man is a "ladies" man and gets a lot of tail, but if a woman does that makes her a slut. This notion of men getting a lot of action surely has some play in how men view relationships, because now it's okay for them to sleep around.

I honestly think that some men buy into that culture while others are more adamant about having a monogamous relationship that turns out very benefiting in the long run.

But again, it's really just about how you view it. Personally, I'm more of a monogamous guy. It's just the whole jealousy thing and sleeping around with other penises that bothers me and makes me uncomfortable. lol
 
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I've never cheated in my life. Never felt compelled to cheat, never had any interest in cheating. Even if my partner approached me and gave her permission, I almost definitely would not follow through with it, and I know I would feel like shit if I did. I would also find myself questioning why she was okay with it -- does she just not care? A little bit of possessiveness in a relationship can be a good thing and a sincere way of showing affection. Of course nobody wants to be with somebody who is overly clingy, but I would think that not wanting me to have sex with another woman might pass as a bare minimum.

Also, this doesn't apply to all open relationships, consider the rationale of the article itself -- "I can't trust you, and I know you're going to cheat on me anyway, so I may as well embrace it and use it to my advantage." What does this say about the state of the relationship from the very beginning, and the people involved in it?
 

Gildragon

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Its completely sexist
it ruins the validity of the relationship and what connection you had
you bring a 3rd person in and all the relationship is, is sex.
 

The Big Lovin'

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I've never cheated in my life. Never felt compelled to cheat, never had any interest in cheating. Even if my partner approached me and gave her permission, I almost definitely would not follow through with it, and I know I would feel like shit if I did. I would also find myself questioning why she was okay with it -- does she just not care? A little bit of possessiveness in a relationship can be a good thing and a sincere way of showing affection. Of course nobody wants to be with somebody who is overly clingy, but I would think that not wanting me to have sex with another woman might pass as a bare minimum.

That's because sex is more to you than just -sex-.

Also, this doesn't apply to all open relationships, consider the rationale of the article itself -- "I can't trust you, and I know you're going to cheat on me anyway, so I may as well embrace it and use it to my advantage." What does this say about the state of the relationship from the very beginning, and the people involved in it?

That's totally on an individual basis. I don't think if you're mature enough to handle a traditional relationship, I definitely don't see those people working in an open relationship. An open relationship takes a lot of trust and understanding to work. That sounds like it has more issues in it's self than just the sex aspect.

Its completely sexist
it ruins the validity of the relationship and what connection you had
you bring a 3rd person in and all the relationship is, is sex.

wuuut. Depends on how you value sex.
 

The Enigmatic Man

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I've never cheated in my life. Never felt compelled to cheat, never had any interest in cheating. Even if my partner approached me and gave her permission, I almost definitely would not follow through with it, and I know I would feel like shit if I did. I would also find myself questioning why she was okay with it -- does she just not care? A little bit of possessiveness in a relationship can be a good thing and a sincere way of showing affection. Of course nobody wants to be with somebody who is overly clingy, but I would think that not wanting me to have sex with another woman might pass as a bare minimum.

I absolutely agree with you. I too have never cheated and although I definitely look...and flirt, I know deep down I would not be able to live with myself if I cheated. After my girlfriend and I became sexual, she repeatedly told me to never have sex with anyone else and how much it would anger/hurt her. I didn't need the reminder to stay faithful but it would always pop into my head every now and then whenever a good looking girl passes by. While I am definitely intrigued by the concept of this "negotiated infidelity" I have absolutely no interest in experimenting with it in my own relationship. There is no way I would ever encourage the idea that my girlfriend go have sex with someone else because it would naturally infuriate me, as I know it would for her if I did the same. I don't view it as clingly, or obsessively possessive but rather, as you stated, just caring. If she let me go and have sex with anyone, I would get the idea that she just doesn't care which would make me question the relationship entirely. In the end it definitely depends on how important sex is considered in your relationship and in my opinion, sex is very important so infidelity, negotiated or not, is a no-go. For those who do it, hey more power to ya but it's not for me.

But psychology professor Lawrence Josephs believes it is more personality type than gender that indicates whether a person might cheat.

I literally said "thank you" to my screen when I read this. I have heard from too many women that "all men are the same. All men cheat. You can't trust any man." It annoys me so much because after a woman gets screwed over by some guy, the next guy she talks to unfortunately pays for it by hearing the same "I don't trust men" bullshit.
 

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wow this is a good article i might have to use it for my psych paper this semester thanks sam

as much as i agree with sam and hate the idea of multiple partners, i can see what ric is saying. it depends on a number of factors, especially on how you view sex. personally, i don't see how you can have sex purely for pleasure, but that's just me. some people grow up differently, and it can potentially be healthy.

perhaps i'm just old-fashioned, but whatever. due to past experience, i can say with absolute certainty that i never intend to cheat on someone i'm involved with. on the other hand, if my partner cheated on me once or twice, sure i'd be really pissed, but i'd eventually get over it and move on as long as we both cared about each other. but for her to be so unsatisfied, bored, or whatever with me sexually that she sleeps with other people purely to satisfy her 'needs', i can't help but have a pessimistic attitude about our relationship.

short version: works for some, but most definitely not for all

Also, this doesn't apply to all open relationships, consider the rationale of the article itself -- "I can't trust you, and I know you're going to cheat on me anyway, so I may as well embrace it and use it to my advantage." What does this say about the state of the relationship from the very beginning, and the people involved in it?

an excellent point -- any relationship would fall apart without trust. monogamy, polygamy, masturbation, etc. none of them can work if you can't trust the people involved. which is why i can't really take this article seriously, because to base the idea of polygamy on that principle is ludicrous.
 

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Its completely sexist
it ruins the validity of the relationship and what connection you had
you bring a 3rd person in and all the relationship is, is sex.

The article may be sexist, but it's not very nice of you to completely dismiss happy and healthy poly relationships along with it. Some people need to 'connect' as you say with more than one person on that level to be sexually and emotionally fulfilled, and I see nothing wrong with that as long as there is communication and trust and everyone is okay with it.

Letting a man 'cheat' is not the same thing at all, though.
 

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itt: the jealous type

there is a difference between having sex with someone who isn't your significant other and cheating. fyi cheating is bad because it's a betrayal of trust. if he/she is okay with sex outside the relationship then there is no betrayal.
 

Gildragon

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The article may be sexist, but it's not very nice of you to completely dismiss happy and healthy poly relationships along with it. Some people need to 'connect' as you say with more than one person on that level to be sexually and emotionally fulfilled, and I see nothing wrong with that as long as there is communication and trust and everyone is okay with it.

Letting a man 'cheat' is not the same thing at all, though.


if its a sex relationship? sure fine. go ahead and sleep around
I however don't believe there is such a thing as a lasting serious relationship where one or both people involved gets to sleep around...and the original be serious.
 

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if its a sex relationship? sure fine. go ahead and sleep around
I however don't believe there is such a thing as a lasting serious relationship where one or both people involved gets to sleep around...and the original be serious.
And that's where you'd be wrong -- that's not an opinion; it's a fact. It's fine that you disapprove or misunderstand, but neither is a reason to simply dismiss it as fairytale.

I'm certainly not claiming that poly relationships are for everyone, or that it's the only thing that works, or that they can't be unhealthy, because that would be exactly as dumb and close-minded as what you're saying right now. It works for some people in the same way that mono relationships work for others, and there are gray areas. Contrary to your idyllic vision, romantic and serious polyamorous/polygamous relationships are not only possible, but happen.
 
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