(SPOILERS) Union X: The Plot Thickens

[Noivern]

Yet on the other hand, there is still the whole issue with Xigbar/Luxu having such a vivid memory of Ventus staring angrily at him that he always remarks about it even when Roxas and Sora do it. So far chronologically BBS is the "first" instance of the glare by Ven himself but in BBS he didn't even have much to do with Xigbar/Luxu.

Oh wow, that's a really good point. I never gave much attention to this before, if it actually turns out the glare happened in the distant past and not Birth by Sleep it's gonna be as big as this update revealing that the room we all thought was from Hollow Bastion was actually in Daybreak town, honestly.

I would have brushed it off before but considering the scene was important enough happen in Days before BBS even came out, hinting about who Xigbar really was, I can definitely believe that they purposely made us believe it was about his time as Braig when in reality it dated waaaay longer than that.

 

[AdrianXXII]

Well I suppose Luxu will have to briefly take an active role in KHUX to bequeathe the No Name to one of the five masters so perhaps he will be glared at then

Well it seems we've still got quite a bit of Union X left, so there's plenty of time for Ven to glare at Luxu. I'd imagine it'd either have to be a recurring thing or a memorable moment for Xigbar to make note of it the way he did.

 

[Ballad of Caius]

If Luxord ends up being in a pod, then this begs the question:
* Is Luxord originally from KHx/Ux and ended up in Verum Rex;
* Or is Luxord originally from VR and ended up in x/Ux?

 

[kirabook]

Spoiler Show

I'm still 100% positive Ven is not Strelitzia's murderer. It just doesn't make sense. Even with the new Re:Mind stuff, they reaffirmed that Ven is much too pure, even for his own good. I don't think "Darkness" has anything to do with Ven, as in, I don't think he possessed Ven and killed Strelitzia or has ever made Ven do something he didn't want to do.

I think Ven is "Darkness"'s vessel in the loosest terms possible. If the machine is the arc in the future, then Ven is the arc Darkness uses to reach it.

As for Vanitas, I'm positive that Vanitas is actually a combination of Ven's darkness (the little he had) and whoever "Darkness" is with Sora's influence coated on the very top of it all. It's why his back and forth statements on who he is and who he isn't are literally contradictory.

One moment he says his home is in Ven and he'll disappear if he goes back. In the other, he says he and Ven are not the same and have never been. So the only conclusion I can draw from that is Vanitas is MOSTLY Ven, but a little bit of "Darkness" too. I don't think Vanitas has ever acted on the whims of "Darkness" and I think Vanitas only has a surface level understanding/knowledge that he is more than just Ventus.

At the end of the day (his death), he seems to accept he will always be a part of Ven and Sora (their shadow).

"Darkness", on the other hand, seems to have a much bigger role to play than Vanitas ever has and I hope it stays that way. I do like Vanitas as an antagonist for our heroes, but I also prefer it stay... personal. If that makes any sense.

Been discussing these updates with a pal and I randomly threw out there that baldynort found amnesiac Ven in one of these pods, somehow knew "Darkness" hitched a ride in him, told Ven he was an orphan and he'd be looking out for him but in reality, Xehanort was trying to get "Darkness" to come out but soon realized Ven couldn't do it. Cause it's not Ven's darkness, but literally someone else in there.

Switching topics again. I might be misremembering, but when Ava told Strelitzia to be a new leader, that ALSO wasn't on the hill, was it? She was in town and Ava called out to her and gave her the book. Right? Neither Ven or Strelitzia met Ava on the hill?

Edit: She didn't.

 

[Any]

I really hope there’s “angst” scenes with Ventus. He lacks confidence and just for Brain to confirm that Ven wasn’t on the list/wasn’t an actual member, will probably kill Ven’s self esteem even more. If I see or hear Ventus calling himself “useless” due to that, I might cry for him.

 

[kristi-swat]

It makes sense if Subject X is Skuld and that means that Luxu recognizes her in RG and understands that she has ended up there from the past. Now looking at the other characters, then the options he has left to bequeath No Name are Brain and Ephemer since currently they are the only ones we don't know at which time they end up after time traveling. Since Eraqus resembles Brain, it might be that he is a great great(x100) grandson of Brain and it raises the possibility that Brain didn't go that far much into the future

 

[Noivern]

If Luxord ends up being in a pod, then this begs the question:
* Is Luxord originally from KHx/Ux and ended up in Verum Rex;
* Or is Luxord originally from VR and ended up in x/Ux?

Spoiler Show

I'm starting to think that the room has been there before the Union Leaders even showed up and probably has come along with the MoM, so maybe Luxord has been sleeping in a pod all along.
Considering the technology we have seen in "Shibuya" and this unexpected extremely technological device contrasting against the clog-look Daybreak Town always had and matching the Data stuff, I'm starting to think MoM is a runaway from that world and the pods may be linked to how he crossed over.
It always irked me how the MoM never seemed to fit visually with the rest of the group, his iconic outfit clashing out way too much with the ancient regal outfits the Union Leaders wore. Now I can't stop thinking about how this room also clashes with everything else in Daybreak so far.

Also, can we all agree that this room is probably what was in the tower all along?

Maybe the Dandelions weren't actually transported into the Data World Sora and Roxas do and their physical bodies are sleeping in those pods, and the reason Lauriam keeps fading in and out of the story is because he realized that and is probably scouting the possible ruins of Daybreak to look for his sister. Maybe going into the data-version of the room is the way to get out into the real world just like the mansion in Twilight Town.

Ehh, I'm just ranting at this point. lol

 

[DraceEmpressa]

One thing I remembered is that in BBS Xehanort, before inserting his heart to Terra, says Terra is "the ark that will sustain me." . And now, Darkness says the box contain an ark... The ark may not be a device, it could be someone.

 

[kristi-swat]

Spoiler Show

I'm starting to think that the room has been there before the Union Leaders even showed up and probably has come along with the MoM, so maybe Luxord has been sleeping in a pod all along.
Considering the technology we have seen in "Shibuya" and this unexpected extremely technological device contrasting against the clog-look Daybreak Town always had and matching the Data stuff, I'm starting to think MoM is a runaway from that world and the pods may be linked to how he crossed over.
It always irked me how the MoM never seemed to fit visually with the rest of the group, his iconic outfit clashing out way too much with the ancient regal outfits the Union Leaders wore. Now I can't stop thinking about how this room also clashes with everything else in Daybreak so far.

Also, can we all agree that this room is probably what was in the tower all along?

Maybe the Dandelions weren't actually transported into the Data World Sora and Roxas do and their physical bodies are sleeping in those pods, and the reason Lauriam keeps fading in and out of the story is because he realized that and is probably scouting the possible ruins of Daybreak to look for his sister. Maybe going into the data-version of the room is the way to get out into the real world just like the mansion in Twilight Town.

Ehh, I'm just ranting at this point. lol

It’s not that far fetched. It’s been established since before that the dandies would be sleeping and going to the data world in their sleep

 

[Xblade13]

Spoiler Show

Well, Darkness being a person certainly makes sense. In order for the X-blade to have been forged and then shattered, there'd have to be 13 of them. 7 Lights could be Player + 5 Union leaders + Elrena.

 

[Ballad of Caius]

I'm starting to think that the room has been there before the Union Leaders even showed up and probably has come along with the MoM, so maybe Luxord has been sleeping in a pod all along.
Considering the technology we have seen in "Shibuya" and this unexpected extremely technological device contrasting against the clog-look Daybreak Town always had and matching the Data stuff, I'm starting to think MoM is a runaway from that world and the pods may be linked to how he crossed over.
It always irked me how the MoM never seemed to fit visually with the rest of the group, his iconic outfit clashing out way too much with the ancient regal outfits the Union Leaders wore. Now I can't stop thinking about how this room also clashes with everything else in Daybreak so far.

I mean, the MoM is the Master of the Foretellers. We don't know how it happened, but it's possible that he designed their outfits. I doubt they were randomly wearing their uniforms. Also, does this mean that MoM is Verum Rex's Ardyn? He's survived various historical events, sooo...

 

[AR829038]

I'd love to know if the Thing here and the one in KH1 are actually somehow connected, or if Nomura is just reusing and repurposing the design. Or, are we supposed to understand that the room we went to in End of the World way back when was not, in fact, in Hollow Bastion, but rather Daybreak Town??? That would blow my mind, but I also wonder how it could be possible. End of the World was never a place that facilitated any kind of time travel.

 

[DraceEmpressa]

Squirming Evil playing instead of Graceful Assassin, Scythe of Petals or Lord of the Castle hinting for Lauriam is the one who will gonna be rekt hard here...

Flower boy I love you, stop biting more than you can chew gdi

 

[Ink Ribbon]

So just a bunch of jumbled thoughts. My brain is in overload right now lol.

After all of this, I wonder what has happened to Ava. I guess Darkness axed her or is preventing her from getting to the data realm altogether. Poor Ventus thinking he was getting the chance to be a union leader but got denied by fake Ava. I don't think Lauriam and Elrena are going to just believe he didn't know about being the imposter though. I'm predicting we're getting some kind of rift coming up soon.

That throwback to the End of the World machine from KH1 tho! I guess we're to assume Xehanort and the apprentices found those chambers and repurposed them for extracting hearts. MoM or Luxu could've been the one who knew where those pods were and influenced Xehanort into looking for them. I'm really going to need Project Xehanort to divulge into his time as Apprentice Xehanort and after. There's a ton of lore there to fill in some blanks during their descent into becoming Nobodies and forming the Organization.

As a random thought, if the Ark requires two points to travel to, is it possible there are multiple machines? There is the one shown there but maybe there's another in Verum Rex's world. We can assume that Luxord is Yozora's driver and was perhaps shot forward with Demyx and possibly Lauriam and Elrena too. He and Demyx could've been from there all along too though so it's hard to say with such little information. Maybe the MoM is from VR and used the machine to travel to Daybreak Town to specifically recruit keyblade wielders from that timeline.

Check out Lauriam being all badass and wielding Divine Rose. I can't see this ending well though. I have this feeling Maleficent and Lauriam are going to strike some kind of deal. Information on Strelitzia in exchange for remembering Maleficient in the future. We have seen Maleficient draw out Riku's inner powers/darkness so what's to say she doesn't do the same to Lauriam and Elrena. Could be an explanation for why they are so different now to their UX counterparts. Imagine those two with their Nobody personalities wanting to overthrow the others and get their own union leaders.

 

[Hirokey123]

So I think it's actually kind of a jump to assume it's the same machine. I think what's more likely is that what AnsemSoD said is true, Ansem the wise HAS seen Subject X (Skuld's) memories. This machine most likely exists in her memories because it's most likely how she ended up traveling across time. When Ansem the Wise was trying to figure out the mystery behind subject X and looked into her memories he most likely saw the arc and thus he tried to recreate it which is why it's not quite a 1:1 but pretty close. Thus how the arc ended up in hollow bastion, it's Ansem the Wise's copy just like when he copied ENCOM's computer system to make his own. I bet you anything that's also how Ansem the Wise learned to create a datascape, people had taken note that the set up of the Daybreak Town control room was very similar to the digital twilight town computer setup right down to even the chair being similar in design. Instead of a callback perhaps the real truth is he also learned of Daybreak Town's control room and the digital daybreak town and he used that knowledge to build his digital twilight town and computer set up.

 

[roXas2.0]

One thing I remembered is that in BBS Xehanort, before inserting his heart to Terra, says Terra is "the ark that will sustain me." . And now, Darkness says the box contain an ark... The ark may not be a device, it could be someone.

I wonder if Sora's heart acts as an ark, which is why Ventus's heart didn't go back to his timeline when he was fading away after his heart was damaged. Maybe that's why Sora can carry hearts and keep them safe: it's another form of heart time travel, where the injured/disappearing heart "arrives" in the future where it has a vessel waiting.

 

[Deleted member 252753]

Spoiler Show

I'm still 100% positive Ven is not Strelitzia's murderer. It just doesn't make sense. Even with the new Re:Mind stuff, they reaffirmed that Ven is much too pure, even for his own good. I don't think "Darkness" has anything to do with Ven, as in, I don't think he possessed Ven and killed Strelitzia or has ever made Ven do something he didn't want to do.

I think Ven is "Darkness"'s vessel in the loosest terms possible. If the machine is the arc in the future, then Ven is the arc Darkness uses to reach it.

As for Vanitas, I'm positive that Vanitas is actually a combination of Ven's darkness (the little he had) and whoever "Darkness" is with Sora's influence coated on the very top of it all. It's why his back and forth statements on who he is and who he isn't are literally contradictory.

One moment he says his home is in Ven and he'll disappear if he goes back. In the other, he says he and Ven are not the same and have never been. So the only conclusion I can draw from that is Vanitas is MOSTLY Ven, but a little bit of "Darkness" too. I don't think Vanitas has ever acted on the whims of "Darkness" and I think Vanitas only has a surface level understanding/knowledge that he is more than just Ventus.

At the end of the day (his death), he seems to accept he will always be a part of Ven and Sora (their shadow).

"Darkness", on the other hand, seems to have a much bigger role to play than Vanitas ever has and I hope it stays that way. I do like Vanitas as an antagonist for our heroes, but I also prefer it stay... personal. If that makes any sense.

Been discussing these updates with a pal and I randomly threw out there that baldynort found amnesiac Ven in one of these pods, somehow knew "Darkness" hitched a ride in him, told Ven he was an orphan and he'd be looking out for him but in reality, Xehanort was trying to get "Darkness" to come out but soon realized Ven couldn't do it. Cause it's not Ven's darkness, but literally someone else in there.

I think you are right about Ven not being the murderer but I also think the series has shown that you don't really need to be particularly bad, per se, to be taken over by darkness. This is illustrated particularly by Buzz in KH3.

Before Buzz is taken over by a heartless he isn't shown to be malevolent or evil or selfish in any way, barring a little antagonism towards SDG. What Young Xehanort uses to put him under the control of darkness is not his evil, but rather an 'emptiness' at being separated from Andy, expressed by doubt and fear.

Ironically Buzz's fear of being taken over by darkness and attacking his friends actually helps this happen by increasing his doubt and anxiety. Buzz never wants to attack his friends, the opposite in fact, but he is still forced to do so by darkness

While the toys and Buzz are an analogy for replicas and Xion (and not a great analogy, in my view) I think you could apply some of that to Ventus too.

When Ven first meets Ephemer and Skuld, he expresses doubt in his own ability and worthiness to be a Union Leader, and notes that he hasn't really had friends before (also in Toy Box, YX talks about the 'Darkness of being alone' Vs the 'Light of friendship').

Why Ven can't utilise his darkness for Xehanort in BBS isn't clear but in the cutscene where Xehanort tries to make Ven fight, I get the impression that Ven is too scared to channel his darkness, and I think heater he talks about being afraid of being taken over by Vanitas (asking Aqua and Terra to kill him if that happens).

Furthermore, in KH3 Ven's Chirithy seems to think he is happier with his new friends, which suggests there is at least pain hidden in his memories, if not darkness.

EDIT: Come to think of it, Vanitas did take over Ventus in BBS and made him attack Aqua, so we know it could definitely happen

 

[Sign]

Videos and transcripts are up in the OP. As always, thanks to goldpanner for translating! <3

 

[kaialone]

Something I just thought about:

When Darkness first told Maleficent about "the ark", they told her that in order to access it, she'd first have to exit the data world, and go to the real version of the tower, and then find the ark there.

Meaning that, if this machine is really supposed to be the ark, Maleficent, Darkness, and Lauriam must already be in the real world right now.

In turn, this means Lauriam found a way to return to the real world as well.

So either Lauriam found this way back by following Maleficent, or found a way off-screen during his research, or knew how to go back all along and kept it from the others.

Now, I don't think this next part is true for sure, but what if Lauriam is behind the glitches in some form, or at least allowed it to happen, because he was trying to access data on Strelitzia of some kind? Like wanting to see her data form in order to figure out what happened, or maybe just to see her one more time.

In any case, curious to see if this will be adressed? (Or did I misunderstand something?)

 

[Genocide]

Yet on the other hand, there is still the whole issue with Xigbar/Luxu having such a vivid memory of Ventus staring angrily at him that he always remarks about it even when Roxas and Sora do it. So far chronologically BBS is the "first" instance of the glare by Ven himself but in BBS he didn't even have much to do with Xigbar/Luxu.

That's because Xigbar was specifically referring to Roxas when that scene was written.
Nomura's writing has the benefit of seeming deep with foreshadowing, because of the "wiggle room" it has, due to it being vague.
"He used to give me that same look" has quickly been given the same retcon/mandela effect treatment as "He looks just like you" - which was Xemnas to Roxas about Sora; and "You look just like him" - Xemnas to Sora about Roxas.

Adding context to vague statements (which really aren't as vague as people think in this context) doesnt cgange anything. Xigbar was talking about Roxas. It's been long confirmed that Nomura has been making this stuff up as he goes along, and not planning things out.