(SPOILERS) Melding the Past and Present (Theory)

[kirabook]

I think it more depends on how the nobodies were made. The "special" ones.

Roxas became his own person because Sora quickly regained his sense of self, leaving Roxas with nothing. Roxas had no memories or sense of self. It was all formed while he was in the organization entirely separate from Sora. He didn't even know who Sora was. Xion is just a replica, just like Repliku. I know many feel Repliku probably deserves to be his own person too like Xion.

That is different from people like Axel who never lost his memories or had to reshape who he was from scratch. Axel was always Lea, he just changed his name.

Hearts are formed of the people you meet, your experiences, your feelings, all of that right. Then Roxas's "heart" is not Sora's heart.

Xemnas is a special case like Sora. I won't even try to explain his situation since it's such a sad mess (as in, sad for Terra whose probably still fighting in there somewhere)

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Like Darkos and Kirabook said, the crux of the whole issue is how the Nobody in question was made and the available/accessible memories in the newly grown heart in question.

Identity/sense of self is formed by the accumulation of memories which is even outright stated in-series so a "new" heart which gets memories from the "old" lost heart at its base will just "continue" the sense of self that is already there which applies to most of the human-shaped Nobodies because it was explicitly stated they all had all the memories from their lives before becoming a Nobody.
Any newly grown heart which adds additional new memories from the "Nobody"-life gets attached to the still intact Chain of Memories of their old heart which is thus easily integrable with the possible replacement. There is no incompatibility between them, hence why Axel/Lea or Lexaeus/Aeleus aren't really that different from another.

Special cases like Roxas and Naminé who started out with nothing build an entire new memory chain and thus an independent "replacement" heart.
Since their "origins" were still functioning and also creating new memories, these hearts could be called incompatible or simply different from their origins in contrast to the above regular cases.

Xion and Repliku are Replicas which started with already existing but empty hearts which got then filled with some pre-existing memories as a base, but these were unjointed pieces and not a full functioning Chain of Memories which would allow a continuation like with "normal" Nobodies. In Xion's case, they were memory pieces sampled by Xemnas from Sora and in Repliku's case they were pieces sampled by Vexen from the original Riku during battle, which he outright confirms and taunts Riku with in CoM.

Saix/Isa is a murky case due to possible Xehanort-infection and of course Xemnas is probably the biggest mess out of all due to possibly three different origin hearts being involved plus any eventual "replacement" Xemnas might have started to grow.
Lea even lampshades this in DDD with "I guess Xehanort doesn't count" as this can be applied to several rules of the possible working of hearts and memories in regards to him.

The same overall rule can also be applied to Ventus and Vanitas as well despite it not being a Somebody/Nobody-case.
Vanitas started out empty like Roxas and Naminé according to Xehanort and Ventus is zombie-like just like Roxas (which was pointed out by Nomura already in 2010 in the BBS Ultimania) since the trauma and injury to his heart made him lose his memories (and most likely crashed Ventus' chain of memories as well since Naminé mentions in CoM that some parts of it also reside within the dark parts of ones heart, the chain was ripped apart just like the heart itself).

Hence in Vanitas' case he's similar to both Roxas and Naminé (having no memories of his "origin" self) and Xion and Repliku (in that he already has a pre-existing piece of heart, possibly filled with some unjointed pieces of Ven's original memories as a base) and through accumulation of new memories developed into a being of his own apart from Ventus.
The development/growth of this new heart being "overseen" and "tampered" by Xehanort for four years results in the messed up result the audience gets to see as "ax-crazy stalker evil" Vanitas.
Ventus on the other hand interestingly has, additionally to the similarity of his starting situation to Roxas, also some heavy similarities to Sora post-CoM (as in his memories are still there, but unhinged and scattered around his broken heart) and Repliku post-Naminé-crushing-his-heart (In order to protect Sora, Naminé shatters Repliku's artificial chain of memories in CoM, Xehanort did the same to Ventus' chain in a more extreme manner when he literally cut a piece out of it).

Interestingly, this could mean that despite the differing origin story Ventus and Vanitas might eventually come into a similar situation as Sora and Roxas in the sense of that Vanitas might hold some unjointed pieces of Ventus' memory just like Roxas held some of Sora due to Naminé's and the Organisation's meddling (which was planned and instigated by Xehanort nonetheless).
In their case Xehanort's direct meddling might be the cause yet Ventus might need those unjointed pieces back to fully restore his old memories just like Sora did. Just like with Roxas though, that wouldn't change the fact that Vanitas has developed a heart independent of Ventus and is thus pretty much his own person just like Roxas or Naminé are from their origins.

In the end, it comes down to the general workings of the heart and memories as one of its primary components.

---

Eh, pondering about all that I actually realize that all these memory shenanigans could be a pretty good starting point for a sort of story arc for Naminé.
Naminé has those memory powers which are said she can use on Sora and those closely connected to him. The connection between Sora and Ventus is described as very close and special so it would work.
Maybe this time Naminé can use her powers to do something beneficial for someone without causing further harm in the process? It would certainly help with her still apparent guilt issues which are i.e. partly displayed in Re: Coded.

 

[Karrawong]

Like Darkos and Kirabook said, the crux of the whole issue is how the Nobody in question was made and the available/accessible memories in the newly grown heart in question.

Identity/sense of self is formed by the accumulation of memories which is even outright stated in-series so a "new" heart which gets memories from the "old" lost heart at its base will just "continue" the sense of self that is already there which applies to most of the human-shaped Nobodies because it was explicitly stated they all had all the memories from their lives before becoming a Nobody.
Any newly grown heart which adds additional new memories from the "Nobody"-life gets attached to the still intact Chain of Memories of their old heart which is thus easily integrable with the possible replacement. There is no incompatibility between them, hence why Axel/Lea or Lexaeus/Aeleus aren't really that different from another.

Special cases like Roxas and Naminé who started out with nothing build an entire new memory chain and thus an independent "replacement" heart.
Since their "origins" were still functioning and also creating new memories, these hearts could be called incompatible or simply different from their origins in contrast to the above regular cases.

Xion and Repliku are Replicas which started with already existing but empty hearts which got then filled with some pre-existing memories as a base, but these were unjointed pieces and not a full functioning Chain of Memories which would allow a continuation like with "normal" Nobodies. In Xion's case, they were memory pieces sampled by Xemnas from Sora and in Repliku's case they were pieces sampled by Vexen from the original Riku during battle, which he outright confirms and taunts Riku with in CoM.

Saix/Isa is a murky case due to possible Xehanort-infection and of course Xemnas is probably the biggest mess out of all due to possibly three different origin hearts being involved plus any eventual "replacement" Xemnas might have started to grow.
Lea even lampshades this in DDD with "I guess Xehanort doesn't count" as this can be applied to several rules of the possible working of hearts and memories in regards to him.

The same overall rule can also be applied to Ventus and Vanitas as well despite it not being a Somebody/Nobody-case.
Vanitas started out empty like Roxas and Naminé according to Xehanort and Ventus is zombie-like just like Roxas (which was pointed out by Nomura already in 2010 in the BBS Ultimania) since the trauma and injury to his heart made him lose his memories (and most likely crashed Ventus' chain of memories as well since Naminé mentions in CoM that some parts of it also reside within the dark parts of ones heart, the chain was ripped apart just like the heart itself).

Hence in Vanitas' case he's similar to both Roxas and Naminé (having no memories of his "origin" self) and Xion and Repliku (in that he already has a pre-existing piece of heart, possibly filled with some unjointed pieces of Ven's original memories as a base) and through accumulation of new memories developed into a being of his own apart from Ventus.
The development/growth of this new heart being "overseen" and "tampered" by Xehanort for four years results in the messed up result the audience gets to see as "ax-crazy stalker evil" Vanitas.
Ventus on the other hand interestingly has, additionally to the similarity of his starting situation to Roxas, also some heavy similarities to Sora post-CoM (as in his memories are still there, but unhinged and scattered around his broken heart) and Repliku post-Naminé-crushing-his-heart (In order to protect Sora, Naminé shatters Repliku's artificial chain of memories in CoM, Xehanort did the same to Ventus' chain in a more extreme manner when he literally cut a piece out of it).

Interestingly, this could mean that despite the differing origin story Ventus and Vanitas might eventually come into a similar situation as Sora and Roxas in the sense of that Vanitas might hold some unjointed pieces of Ventus' memory just like Roxas held some of Sora due to Naminé's and the Organisation's meddling (which was planned and instigated by Xehanort nonetheless).
In their case Xehanort's direct meddling might be the cause yet Ventus might need those unjointed pieces back to fully restore his old memories just like Sora did. Just like with Roxas though, that wouldn't change the fact that Vanitas has developed a heart independent of Ventus and is thus pretty much his own person just like Roxas or Naminé are from their origins.

In the end, it comes down to the general workings of the heart and memories as one of its primary components.

---

Eh, pondering about all that I actually realize that all these memory shenanigans could be a pretty good starting point for a sort of story arc for Naminé.
Naminé has those memory powers which are said she can use on Sora and those closely connected to him. The connection between Sora and Ventus is described as very close and special so it would work.
Maybe this time Naminé can use her powers to do something beneficial for someone without causing further harm in the process? It would certainly help with her still apparent guilt issues which are i.e. partly displayed in Re: Coded.

While I agree with how Roxas, Naminé and Xion became their own person. Vanitas and Ventus do still have those links to the chain of memories that the original Ventus in kh union cross had. I find that this further complicates their situation compared with Roxas, Naminé and Xion's situation, where they all started as a blank slate with basically little to non of the original links of the chain of memories of their original somebodies (excluding Xion in this case as she was siphoning Sora's memories due to being a replica of him).

Vanitas and Ven don't seem to have this, as Vanitas can still feel what Ven feels to a extant, meaning the two halves of their heart are still somewhat connected as well as in the scene where Ven remembers the memory of his time with Xehanort before he was split in two, it seems that the chain of memories of both the light and the dark half of his heart are still connected.

On a side note I do also want to make a point if Vanitas is fine existing by himself as a separate being as (based on the novel) he can only feel negative emotions and destroying the unversed (which spawn from him consciously or not) causes him pain.

My own idea of why at the end of BBS when Ven and Vanitas fused and Vanitas took control instead of Ven regaining most of his original heart seemed to be because of 2 factors:

1) It was because of the piece of Xehanort's heart inside Vanitas.

2) Ventus was resisting and didn't want to fuse with Vanitas and so they both became two conscious's in one body.

I think its a combination of the two (mostly (1) though) that lead to the outcome in BBS instead of what happened with Roxas and Sora at the end of KH2.

I also want to comment on how Sora's newborn heart at the beginning of BBS mentioned that Ven would win back the piece of his heart (his dark half) that he lost back. I don't think I have heard anyone mention this detail when discussing this topic, it may be brought up in KH3.

I'm sorry if I get some points wrong, I haven't been keeping up with Kingdom Hearts news as much as I used to.


On the kirabook's original post, I do find it believable and very interesting.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

While I agree with how Roxas, Naminé and Xion became their own person. Vanitas and Ventus do still have those links to the chain of memories that the original Ventus in kh union cross had. I find that this further complicates their situation compared with Roxas, Naminé and Xion's situation, where they all started as a blank slate with basically little to non of the original links of the chain of memories of their original somebodies (excluding Xion in this case as she was siphoning Sora's memories due to being a replica of him).

They both only have unjointed broken links though, which is no different to what both Xion and Roxas had as an underlying base, although one difference that is indeed there is that Roxas got the broken links of Sora's memories only later after Naminé started her memory manipulation with Sora in CoM. That's why he falls into a coma for a while in Days and both Xemnas and Saix speak about that "now much hinges on Castle Oblivion".
Roxas (and Xion) having those links was what prevented Naminé from fully restoring Sora's memories and what in the end made it necessary for both of them to join with Sora in the first place.

In BBS Eraqus explicitly states that Ventus can't remember anything and Nomura deliberately made a comparison between Ventus' and Roxas' "zombie-phases", but the broken links of the old memories being possibly present in both Ventus and Vanitas doesn't have any impact on Vanitas still being his own person just like Roxas. The memories Ventus made in the four years between Vanitas' creation and BBS itself are solely his while those made by Vanitas are his own as well.
These remaining old memory pieces/links though belong solely to Ventus and have nothing to do with the newly grown heart that is the being called "Vanitas" just like Roxas doesn't really connect with the memory flashes of Sora's memories he gets to witness in dreams/visions.

Ventus' heart was nursed back to health and "formed" by Terra, Aqua and Eraqus so he could more or less fully function again, meaning he doesn't need Vanitas to function.
Vanitas on the other hand got his heart nurtured and "formed" by Xehanort so he doesn't need Ventus to function either.

Both were functionable on their own so they don't need the other. Sora and Roxas actually were the same...until Naminé's memory messing and the siphoning ability of Xion came in.

Vanitas and Ven don't seem to have this, as Vanitas can still feel what Ven feels to a extant, meaning the two halves of their heart are still somewhat connected as well as in the scene where Ven remembers the memory of his time with Xehanort before he was split in two, it seems that the chain of memories of both the light and the dark half of his heart are still connected.

Nonetheless both Ven and Vanitas are described to be "amnesiac" and "empty" respectively so their situation is comparable. The comparison has even be explicitly made already.
Sora and Roxas are also still deeply connected, as is shown during both CoM and Days (where do you think Vexen got the memories to make the Twilight Town card in CoM from? He got them from Roxas, gaining access through his connection with Sora, that's what he means with the cryptical "other side of your heart"-remark).

So of course Ventus and Vanitas are still connected, just like Sora and Roxas are, but not through an actual functioning and/or intact memory chain.
It's in all cases, Roxas, Xion and Vanitas (I'm excluding Naminé because no one knows if she even got anything to begin with) loose old links of a severed memory chain belonging to someone else which they can't consciously access or in any form feel belong to themselves.
It cannot be any different in terms of connection anyways because Vanitas only gained his current appearance through his connection with Ventus. Ventus is connected with Sora and Vanitas gained Sora's looks through his own connection with Ven.

On a side note I do also want to make a point if Vanitas is fine existing by himself as a separate being as (based on the novel) he can only feel negative emotions and destroying the unversed (which spawn from him consciously or not) causes him pain.

My own idea of why at the end of BBS when Ven and Vanitas fused and Vanitas took control instead of Ven regaining most of his original heart seemed to be because of 2 factors:

1) It was because of the piece of Xehanort's heart inside Vanitas.

2) Ventus was resisting and didn't want to fuse with Vanitas and so they both became two conscious's in one body.

I think its a combination of the two (mostly (1) though) that lead to the outcome in BBS instead of what happened with Roxas and Sora at the end of KH2.

I also want to comment on how Sora's newborn heart at the beginning of BBS mentioned that Ven would win back the piece of his heart (his dark half) that he lost back. I don't think I have heard anyone mention this detail when discussing this topic, it may be brought up in KH3.

I'm sorry if I get some points wrong, I haven't been keeping up with Kingdom Hearts news as much as I used to.

Vanitas being fine existing by himself is actually outright stated and shown in BBS itself, as
a) Xehanort was perfectly willing to ditch Ventus on Destiny Islands and let him fade away without any concern that it would affect Vanitas and
b) Vanitas himself showed no qualms trying to annihilate Ventus and trying to do the "X-blade-date" with Aqua as a substitute instead.

One doesn't need any secondary sources for this one.

Ventus himself makes it pretty clear on Destiny Islands that he wants nothing to do with Vanitas and the declarations to undo their fusion as well as the X-blade were also pretty straightforward.
Roxas eventually gave in and let the merge happen, Ventus didn't, that's the difference.

Winning back what you lost may indeed be a theme, although it would just like with Sora and Roxas refer to only the parts that actually belong to Ventus, which were in Sora's case loose memory links and which may also be the same in Ventus' as the proof that a damaged heart can be nursed back to health without explicitly needing the original part back has already been shown in the games themselves, so it may have a more metaphorical meaning rather than literal.

 

[kirabook]

To round this back to the original topic, I'm thinking people like Ven and Marluxia (or maybe just Ven) will not regain their complete memory from way back when.

I imagine it will be more like when Ven remembered what Xehanort did to him. Ven doesn't seem to remember anything else except that moment. If this is brought up in KH3 or beyond, I think Ven and Marluxia will probably remember what happened to them (if they got willingly/unwillingly thrust into whatever landed them into the future), but probably not their entire lives leading up to that point.

I think Marluxia will have a clearer idea of what happened in the past, but still not a complete picture which may f*ck him over at some point. Ven will probably only know enough to know something bad is going to happen or will happen (much like not knowing with the [chi]blade is, but it still scares him to death)

How this can play into the plot? I don't know. Maybe Marluxia will end up being a vessel? Maybe Marluxia will be the... 5th? side of this war (Xehanort, Maleficent, Sora's crew, the heartless which technically follows no one in particular). Maybe once Marluxia returned to his true self, he remembered some fragments of his past so he has a new interest in Sora, Roxas, and Ven and is interested in "helping" out.

Just imagine that. Marluxia returns pretending to be a reformed guy (like Axel/Lea) just so he can get to Ventus for whatever reason. Maybe Ven really has been the key to the [chi]blade all along or he had the remaining Book of Prophesies.

If that is the case, then I might be ok with that because Xehanort has ALWAYS had an interest in Ven. He even seemed disappointed when it seemed like Ven was going to die. Even when Xehanort was split into multiple pieces, he was STILL trying to get to Ven.

So if Ven does have the Book of Prophesies or knowledge of something both Marly and Xehanort has always wanted, I think it fits. Marluxia not as much, but he was pretty obsessed with the keyblade and Sora.