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(SPOILERS) Melding the Past and Present (Theory)



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kirabook

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I’ve been thinking about the recent events of [Chi]/Union X/whatever a lot over the past few days. I don’t know how I feel about the newest reveal, but right now they can be summed up as “It’s interesting, but I don’t care enough to be happy or upset”

In general, I’m not entirely please with what Nomura is doing with this game, but like with other questionable decisions he made… I want to try and piece things together even if they don’t go together. For my own sanity.

As I mentioned previously, even WAY back when I wrote on the theory about Ventus being a Dandelion, I don’t think time travel is going on here. Not the kind of time travel Xehanort was using. I believe another catastrophic event is going to basically send everyone whirling through time unintentionally or maybe intentionally for a few.

I thinking (and hoping) although Ven and Marly might be from the distant past, their past selves aren't going to play a major plot breaking role. I don't think they will have any real knowledge that will affect the future other than knowing what happened in the past.

Imagine this, the great calamity happens and the 5 union leaders are thrust into different points in time with little to no memory of who they were or where they came. Nothing they knew or experienced affected the plot of KH that we know so far (BbS - DDD). They just happened to set a lot of stuff in motion that resulted in them ending up in the future. So even if one of them, Marly, were trying to cause havoc or purposely travel to the future, even he wouldn't have made the transition from past to present properly and he too would have lost himself.

The 'time travel' could simply them being dragged into and then spit out of the dream realm. This how I originally theorized Ven ended up in the future give [Chi]/Union X has a lot to do with the "Unchained" and sleeping.

If it's like this where the past had no real effect on the future even if they are the same characters, I think I would be ok with that. As long as Nomura isn't trying to imply Marly had this all planned out for centuries and was still working toward that goal in the BbS-DDD timeline. I would prefer if Marly got wrecked and ended up just as amnesiatic as Ven Ven and didn't plan jack.

Thoughts?
 

gosoxtim

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I’ve been thinking about the recent events of [Chi]/Union X/whatever a lot over the past few days. I don’t know how I feel about the newest reveal, but right now they can be summed up as “It’s interesting, but I don’t care enough to be happy or upset”

In general, I’m not entirely please with what Nomura is doing with this game, but like with other questionable decisions he made… I want to try and piece things together even if they don’t go together. For my own sanity.

As I mentioned previously, even WAY back when I wrote on the theory about Ventus being a Dandelion, I don’t think time travel is going on here. Not the kind of time travel Xehanort was using. I believe another catastrophic event is going to basically send everyone whirling through time unintentionally or maybe intentionally for a few.

I thinking (and hoping) although Ven and Marly might be from the distant past, their past selves aren't going to play a major plot breaking role. I don't think they will have any real knowledge that will affect the future other than knowing what happened in the past.

Imagine this, the great calamity happens and the 5 union leaders are thrust into different points in time with little to no memory of who they were or where they came. Nothing they knew or experienced affected the plot of KH that we know so far (BbS - DDD). They just happened to set a lot of stuff in motion that resulted in them ending up in the future. So even if one of them, Marly, were trying to cause havoc or purposely travel to the future, even he wouldn't have made the transition from past to present properly and he too would have lost himself.

The 'time travel' could simply them being dragged into and then spit out of the dream realm. This how I originally theorized Ven ended up in the future give [Chi]/Union X has a lot to do with the "Unchained" and sleeping.









If it's like this where the past had no real effect on the future even if they are the same characters, I think I would be ok with that. As long as Nomura isn't trying to imply Marly had this all planned out for centuries and was still working toward that goal in the BbS-DDD timeline. I would prefer if Marly got wrecked and ended up just as amnesiatic as Ven Ven and didn't plan jack.

Thoughts?
i would like that but we have to see though espically with the his nobdy in tangled and nomura say every old orgination story will be complete so this make this this was the start of it
 

Ballad of Caius

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This all sounds like when Terranort was sent flying into Radiant Garden by the Xblade's explosion. But what if this happened with a real Keyblade War and a complete Xblade? KH is an overnatural force, whose to say a force like that can't pull time shennanigans?
 

Alpha Baymax

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Imagine this, the great calamity happens and the 5 union leaders are thrust into different points in time with little to no memory of who they were or where they came. Nothing they knew or experienced affected the plot of KH that we know so far (BbS - DDD). They just happened to set a lot of stuff in motion that resulted in them ending up in the future. So even if one of them, Marly, were trying to cause havoc or purposely travel to the future, even he wouldn't have made the transition from past to present properly and he too would have lost himself.

The 'time travel' could simply them being dragged into and then spit out of the dream realm. This how I originally theorized Ven ended up in the future give [Chi]/Union X has a lot to do with the "Unchained" and sleeping.

Thoughts?

Believe it or not, that was my thought as to how Ventus ended up in the present era before Lauriam was introduced. The Unchained Realm seems to be a bubble unaffiliated with the real world (pretty much like a Sleeping World or Timeless River). Time is presumably standing still in the Unchained Realm hence why the characters never age: Union X is the Bugsy Malone of Kingdom Hearts.

Having them all be spat out in different era's of time outside the Unchained Realm justifies every one of those character's placement in the present time. A lot of people are erroneously working their way backwards as to why a pre-established character like Ventus and Marluxia is part of the past, when in reality, you have to think the opposite way round and guess how they got from the Unchained Realm to their current destinations.
 

Ballad of Caius

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Believe it or not, that was my thought as to how Ventus ended up in the present era before Lauriam was introduced. The Unchained Realm seems to be a bubble unaffiliated with the real world (pretty much like a Sleeping World or Timeless River). Time is presumably standing still in the Unchained Realm hence why the characters never age: Union X is the Bugsy Malone of Kingdom Hearts.

Having them all be spat out in different era's of time outside the Unchained Realm justifies every one of those character's placement in the present time. A lot of people are erroneously working their way backwards as to why a pre-established character like Ventus and Marluxia is part of the past, when in reality, you have to think the opposite way round and guess how they got from the Unchained Realm to their current destinations.
Making more sense out of Marluxia coming from the KHx era, this means that, whatever happened, he's spit out of the Unchained Realm, a Heartless attacks him, and his Nobody is born at the spot, because I think Xigbar found him unconscious or just born.
 

kirabook

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This all sounds like when Terranort was sent flying into Radiant Garden by the Xblade's explosion. But what if this happened with a real Keyblade War and a complete Xblade? KH is an overnatural force, whose to say a force like that can't pull time shennanigans?

Yes, exactly. The concept is the same even though the situation is quite different.

Maybe the Keyblade War Xehanort read about was not the first one we just witnessed, but a second one to come. And then that's where all the [Chi]blade stuff is going to come into play. And that's how the characters we recognize end up in random spots in the future. They might have ended up in different... "states" too.

Take Ven for example. It seems he got spit out exactly as he was. Same name, same appearance except his hair has grown out. Same age? (11 years old).

For Marly, it may just be my eyes, but he looks taller than them or something. He could've gotten spit out in a terrible state and lost his heart and became a nobody. But I don't think that is the case because he still had enough memory left to remember his name. I think he got spit out with some memory loss and went on to live a normal "dangerous" life and eventually, lost his heart and became a nobody. When he got spit out is questionable, but it is certainly post Birth by Sleep

Blaine, who knows. Same for Ephemera and Skuld. If Blaine is Ienzo, he might've gotten spit out in the worst state. Or, maybe if Ienzo is Blaine, then the 'reincarnation' theory could be true where Blaine's heart already returned to Kingdom Hearts and was reborn again centuries later as Ienzo with no real connection to Blaine.
 

Ballad of Caius

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Yes, exactly. The concept is the same even though the situation is quite different.

Maybe the Keyblade War Xehanort read about was not the first one we just witnessed, but a second one to come. And then that's where all the [Chi]blade stuff is going to come into play. And that's how the characters we recognize end up in random spots in the future. They might have ended up in different... "states" too.

Take Ven for example. It seems he got spit out exactly as he was. Same name, same appearance except his hair has grown out. Same age? (11 years old).

For Marly, it may just be my eyes, but he looks taller than them or something. He could've gotten spit out in a terrible state and lost his heart and became a nobody. But I don't think that is the case because he still had enough memory left to remember his name. I think he got spit out with some memory loss and went on to live a normal "dangerous" life and eventually, lost his heart and became a nobody. When he got spit out is questionable, but it is certainly post Birth by Sleep

Blaine, who knows. Same for Ephemera and Skuld. If Blaine is Ienzo, he might've gotten spit out in the worst state. Or, maybe if Ienzo is Blaine, then the 'reincarnation' theory could be true where Blaine's heart already returned to Kingdom Hearts and was reborn again centuries later as Ienzo with no real connection to Blaine.
I also wonder if youngs Eraqus' and Xehanort's Master will come into play. I mean, it's possible KH3 will explore that phase of their lives, so it's reasonable to expect the narration to show who their master is. And judging by how their master told them about the lost masters, it's possible this person is either could the KHx era, or he knows.
 

Alpha Baymax

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Making more sense out of Marluxia coming from the KHx era, this means that, whatever happened, he's spit out of the Unchained Realm, a Heartless attacks him, and his Nobody is born at the spot, because I think Xigbar found him unconscious or just born.

I also wonder if youngs Eraqus' and Xehanort's Master will come into play. I mean, it's possible KH3 will explore that phase of their lives, so it's reasonable to expect the narration to show who their master is. And judging by how their master told them about the lost masters, it's possible this person could either be from the KHx era, or he knows.

Yeah, that seems fairly accurate in my book. Unlike everyone from Radiant Garden who was struck down by Terra-Xehanort, Marluxia's Nobody could have been formed from a more conventional manner. Or alternatively, he could have lost his Heart to the Darkness thus forming a Heartless and Nobody.

Funny that you mention Young Eraqus and Xehanort. I wouldn't be surprised if they learn about the Dandelion Union leaders: Ephemer, Skuld, Ventus, Blaine and "Lauriam". It'd make Xehanort's find of Ventus all the more ambitious and would make Eraqus freak out behind the scenes when Xehanort bring Ventus in to be taken under Eraqus.
 

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Yeah I kinda feel like it gets overlooked that Marluxia's current appearance in terms of age makes sense without any real jumping around so long as you remember to count the time frozen age gap. If they both get spit out around the same time then everything adds up because while it's easy to forget, there was in fact a 10 year gap that Ventus just stopped aging. Let's say Marluxia is 15 and Ventus is 11 they both get spit out then around 4 years later Ventus is now 15 and Marluxia is like 20. Then you add in the fact Ventus went into ageless hibernation so while he's remained 15/16 Marluxia would have aged up to around 25-30 give or take when he became a Nobody (had to be relatively late he was one of the last members and they were setting up base in Castle Oblivion when they got him). This lines up very well with the modern day Marluxia's appearance in CoM/Days.
 

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What if the events of Unchained are a dream repeating in an infinite loop? Think of it as the Buddhist concept of Samsara, where life and death is a never-ending cycle that is broken when one reaches Nirvana (enlightenment). Ventus and Lauriam (maybe the others too) could have broken free from one of the cycles somewhere down the timeline and emerged in the real world in the future.
 

Ballad of Caius

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Yeah I kinda feel like it gets overlooked that Marluxia's current appearance in terms of age makes sense without any real jumping around so long as you remember to count the time frozen age gap. If they both get spit out around the same time then everything adds up because while it's easy to forget, there was in fact a 10 year gap that Ventus just stopped aging. Let's say Marluxia is 15 and Ventus is 11 they both get spit out then around 4 years later Ventus is now 15 and Marluxia is like 20. Then you add in the fact Ventus went into ageless hibernation so while he's remained 15/16 Marluxia would have aged up to around 25-30 give or take when he became a Nobody (had to be relatively late he was one of the last members and they were setting up base in Castle Oblivion when they got him). This lines up very well with the modern day Marluxia's appearance in CoM/Days.
It's also possible that Marluxia as a Nobody could have grown a heart and aged since then. It happened with Zexion.
What if the events of Unchained are a dream repeating in an infinite loop? Think of it as the Buddhist concept of Samsara, where life and death is a never-ending cycle that is broken when one reaches Nirvana (enlightenment). Ventus and Lauriam (maybe the others too) could have broken free from one of the cycles somewhere down the timeline and emerged in the real world in the future.
I wouldn't doubt this, seeing as how that's where things seem to be looking into. Maybe this is what the MoM intends: to create an artificial Kingdom Hearts that is more ambitious than whatever Xehanort envisioned in the past.

...or what if Kingdom Hearts IS an infinite loop that needs a cataclysmic event in order to break that cycle and harness its power?
 

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It's also possible that Marluxia as a Nobody could have grown a heart and aged since then. It happened with Zexion.
Where has this been stated? I know that Xemnas talked about how the body would try to replace the heart the first moment it gets, but nowhere did we see that Zexion grew a heart? Nobodies age, period, no matter what Nomura said before, he pretty much established that with Ienzo, Lea and Isa posing as young kids in BBS.
Even more so, this is something I've wondered before, if a Nobody grew a heart for themselves, wouldn't defeating them mean either killing them or creating a new Heartless+Nobody? If that is the case, Zexion would've never come back as Ienzo if he had grown a heart (same with Axel, that's why I believe Axel especially might've been in the process of growing a heart but never finished it).
 

Ballad of Caius

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Where has this been stated? I know that Xemnas talked about how the body would try to replace the heart the first moment it gets, but nowhere did we see that Zexion grew a heart? Nobodies age, period, no matter what Nomura said before, he pretty much established that with Ienzo, Lea and Isa posing as young kids in BBS.
Even more so, this is something I've wondered before, if a Nobody grew a heart for themselves, wouldn't defeating them mean either killing them or creating a new Heartless+Nobody? If that is the case, Zexion would've never come back as Ienzo if he had grown a heart (same with Axel, that's why I believe Axel especially might've been in the process of growing a heart but never finished it).
I think the heart a Nobody grows for itself is a new heart. If their Heartless is defeated, then that original heart goes on a stasis, and when the Nobody is defeated, the body meets with the original heart. I don't know what happens with the new heart, but seeing as how Braig is conscious of his past life as a Nobody, maybe they meld? Regardless, I wouldn't put it past Xemnas to say that Nobodies can grow hearts, when in reality, it could mean that Master Xehanort seeded them and that part of his heart could grow into a whole one inside of them.
 

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I think the heart a Nobody grows for itself is a new heart. If their Heartless is defeated, then that original heart goes on a stasis, and when the Nobody is defeated, the body meets with the original heart. I don't know what happens with the new heart, but seeing as how Braig is conscious of his past life as a Nobody, maybe they meld? Regardless, I wouldn't put it past Xemnas to say that Nobodies can grow hearts, when in reality, it could mean that Master Xehanort seeded them and that part of his heart could grow into a whole one inside of them.
Ugh, I hate how DDD just messed that part up, seriously. I mean the whole "Nobodies can grow hearts" part seems to be only put in for Roxas and Xion (and hopefully Naminé), to explain how the two of them can return in the future. I mean, for them, growing a new heart at least makes sense.
But then again, Xemnas only mentioned it as a possibility, not a necessity that happened, so I'm still leaning toward believing that nobody actually managed to grow a new heart apart from Roxas, Naminé and Xion (with Axel coming close since he started to show more emotions and was constantly in the proximity of two growing hearts + Ven's heart).
 

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Nah. It was certainly hinted at that nobodies could grow hearts since KH2/KH2 Final Mix. Even Sora mentions it, "You can't cry unless you have a heart!" Something like that.

Roxas certainly did a lot of crying. Axel cried a bit. Xion got her own crying too I guess? Namine certainly cried all the way at the end of Chain of Memories.

I truly don't believe Roxas's story was ever going to end with him just being happy to be inside of Sora. No one gets that depressed over summer vacation ending and insisting that they're their own person just to lay down and "die" so to speak. As soon as Sora found out about him, I've always felt Sora would do something about it.
 

Ballad of Caius

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Nah. It was certainly hinted at that nobodies could grow hearts since KH2/KH2 Final Mix. Even Sora mentions it, "You can't cry unless you have a heart!" Something like that.

Roxas certainly did a lot of crying. Axel cried a bit. Xion got her own crying too I guess? Namine certainly cried all the way at the end of Chain of Memories.

I truly don't believe Roxas's story was ever going to end with him just being happy to be inside of Sora. No one gets that depressed over summer vacation ending and insisting that they're their own person just to lay down and "die" so to speak. As soon as Sora found out about him, I've always felt Sora would do something about it.
Pretty much this. DDD just outright confirmed the idea of Nobodies growing hearts. But as to how that works when the Nobody is defeated and is reunited with its former heart, I don't know.
 

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I mean all of it makes sense, but there is no denying that it does clash a little with the whole "defeat a Heartless and the Nobody and the Somebody will be reformed" idea. Like I said, if a Nobody grows a heart, shouldn't they be a complete being once again? That's where both ideas start to clash. I mean it could be possible that the hearts just become one, but I for one wouldn't be too happy with that explanation, seeing as up until now, hearts never really became one (Ventus and Sora coexist, everyone inside of Sora still coexists, Terra and Xehanort coexist).
 

Ballad of Caius

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I mean all of it makes sense, but there is no denying that it does clash a little with the whole "defeat a Heartless and the Nobody and the Somebody will be reformed" idea. Like I said, if a Nobody grows a heart, shouldn't they be a complete being once again? That's where both ideas start to clash. I mean it could be possible that the hearts just become one, but I for one wouldn't be too happy with that explanation, seeing as up until now, hearts never really became one (Ventus and Sora coexist, everyone inside of Sora still coexists, Terra and Xehanort coexist).
Well, we're comparing hearts from different entities. What if the same entity had two hearts? It's certainly something that should be cleared in KH3, but I think it'll be ignored.
 

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Well, there's also something to say, which is that the plot only cares for SOME Nobodies to grow a heart and becoming their own persona.
No one, for example, is being really vocal about bringing Axel back and making him living his own life detatched from Lea.
And that is because Lea and Axel are basically the same person: the only Nobodies that are different from their Somebodies are Roxas, Naminé and Xemnas, because there were special circumstances (Sora and Xehanort mantaining sense of self even as Heartless and Kairi not having one at all).

This is what is known and proven, or at least it should be according to my knowledge. Now, I think it's possible this extends also to the whole developing a heart of your own thing: perhpas is possible only for special Nobodies, while standard ones are destined to either accept one from someone else (Xemnas' Kingdom Hearts) or wait to be vanquished and eventually reform as the original Somebody.
While the special ones can obtain their own heart and living their own life, or something.

And yes, Xemnas is a special Nobody but was "used" in a classic way... then again, nothing says he could've picked a different path, it's just that he (Xehanort) didn't want him to.
Also, he was used to bring Xehanort back BUT he will still be present for the battle anyway, so in a way he also has his own life detatched from the Somebody.
 

Ballad of Caius

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Yeah. That's a good point. Only Special Nobodies developing a Heart seems valid.
 
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