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(SPOILERS) KINGDOM HEARTS X[chi] Special Episode



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Sephiroth0812

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In retrospect, it's kind of hilarious that the player doesn't just rip off the bangle after that scene - you still do guilt damage in the fights after Nightmare Chirithy.

Gameplay and story segregation at its finest.
Strictly spoken, anyone who doesn't want to "become" a traitor to the light and turn into a Seeker of Darkness should refrain from using any dark medals/cards at all as they're also represent the power of Darkness just like the guilt/sin.

---

As for the question if Maleficent traveled to the past or the "Player" to the present it is also possible that neither is correct because in the Realm of Sleep there is no time flow. If this is all a dream/in a dream world present day-Maleficent just entered that dream world, she didn't really time travel.
Dreams have to do with sleep, one of Maleficent's primary attributes so it is feasible that she's good in this stuff.

There's also this part from Ansem SoD in DDD that might become relevant to Chi-characters as well:
Dreams hold our memories. Sleep holds our dreams. And darkness--it holds our sleep.
 

Ballad of Caius

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Holy crap, what a curveball. The best plot twist in the KH series in my humble opinion.

So what I imagine happened is that the Dandelions were taking shelter inside the Book of Prophecies itself. That's how they survived the apocalypse, because the book did. After the apocalypse they all left. Skuld and Ephemera still saw that their friend was mortally wounded and couldn't be taken outside the stasis of the Book of Prophecies. They left him in there to heal, and possibly sleep in peace for eternity after all he did. (Although one or both could have very well have stayed behind to watch over him... I'm just assuming the former because he was alone aside from Chirithy when he woke up. Hopefully Skuld, simply because Ephemera is supposed to be the leader of the Dandelions, right? Hopefully he wouldn't shirk his duties.)

And there he slept... until Maleficent kicked in the door to the Book of Prophecies. The Player is now awake. He doesn't know that the most blatantly dark being he'll have ever seen face to face is in the Book with him. Doubtful he even knows he's in the book unless Chirithy tells him. And Maleficent, in turn, has no idea that a hundred million year old Keyblade Wielder is inside the book with her, and able to stop her in Sora's place since she seems so confident he can't follow her.

One thing is for sure: It's Maleficent time. She is officially Priority One and Xehanort's on the back burner. Because Xehanort needs seven of us to fight them to complete the X Blade. If we don't fight, no X Blade, at which point he has to go find the Princesses and threaten to fight them instead, which would take time. HE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE HIS THIRTEENTH SEAT FILLED.

Maleficent, on the other hand, has the Book of Prophecies. She HAS it. NOW. If she figures out how to draw power from characters in the tome like we've been doing... holy shit. Even if Xehanort gets ahold of the X Blade, if she figures out how to use the Book, SHE COULD USE IT TO USE THE POWER OF XEHANORT WITH THE X BLADE FOR HERSELF. She could actually use the book to counter an X Blade wielding Xehanort!

Again. Forget Xehanort for now. At long last, it's Maleficent time. And if the Player doesn't figure out exactly who is in there with him and stop her... I truly believe only someone with the all powerful X Blade would be able to stop her.

Holy **** Maleficent. I love you for taking the spotlight back, but calm down.
I just had a thought: what if the universe of Kingdom Hearts in itself is a constant loop? I mean, the Book of Prophecies foretells the future. It has the power to conjure images from the future. What if, after the Keyblade War plunged everything into darkness, the Dandelions used Ava's copy of the Book, or even the other ones, not to "restore" the world, but rather to conjure the future worlds into their present? This could technically mean that KHx doesn't necessarily take place that distant in the past of the timeline, meaning that Ephemera, Skuld and the rest of the Dandelions could still be alive.

Think of it this way: the Book is a PC restore point, only that it has content from the future. Maybe the Book is meant to be a backup server for Kingdom Hearts...? xD
 

Saken

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Wait, how is it more plausible that we traveled to the future? If anything, I think it's more plausible Maleficent traveled back in time.

Not saying we travelled to the future either. There's something more going on. Think more like a Ven, stuck in a constant state of sleep and we were either awakened, or maleficent was able to enter that dream world we are currently in. As for why we're in a dream world in the first place, it could either be due to reliving the memories of the book of prophecies, or because since the keyblade war the player has been stuck in some constant state of endless dream, like what would of happened to Sora if Riku didn't save him, which makes the player constantly relive the memory of the keyblade war. Something like that. I don't think time travel has anything to do with it.

Chirithy is an exception to the Dream Eater rule because they were man made. They have had to exist in the real world in order to have been created by the Master of Masters in the first place. It wouldn't be a retcon for Chirithy's to exist in the real world.

They were man made, sure, but by a man already in the dream world. From the beginning the story of X took place in some dream land. And the master of masters purposely placed everyone in there and "created" spirits, as in, they already existed there and he just manifest them and attached them to each player. In fact the "master of masters" probably got the hell of out there once he set up the scene. That's why no one could locate him. He simply wanted to observe. Remember Luxu said his task was to observe, so perhaps it was simply an experiment purposely created in the dream world to reenact the scene of the keyblade war to see how it all went down? Then you also have Luxu saying the master didn't care about the world, but simply how the "key" would guide us. To me it really does sound like some twisted experiment.
And again if my theory that there is some direct parallel between ansem the wise and the master of masters is true then it's not beyond him to try something that twisted :)
 
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AurisFlown

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Sorry if I'm joining this convo real late, I came back after a long break.

I wonder though....If its possible that the Player doesn't truly "exist", so to speak.

What if the player that we control is someone who doesn't exist in the past but only inside the Book of Prophecies. It would make sense as why we are able to Customize our Players gender and look.

Sure, we can just say that we are just a Random Player from the past, but it wouldn't make sense with all the important things that did happen and with the Special Episode showing us a place that doesn't exists from the Chi Timeline.

Although, I do agree that by Maleficent appearing within the Book of Prophecies, its possible it shifted the Timeline within itself and tried to correct itself by changing the "past'.

Hmm...this sounds very confusing and not convincing at all.
 

Taochan

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It definitely sounds like Maleficent has the Book of Prophecies.

---

Maleficent in Chi:

Maleficent: "Not even Sora and his friends can meddle in this world."

I don't think she's referring to the normal Realm of Light Enchanted Dominion. Why wouldn't Sora be able to get there?

I decided to look through older Maleficent cutscenes to put all of the relevant dialogue together.

---

Maleficent in 2.5:

Maleficent: "It's said to be capable of transcribing events that have yet to take place."

"--legend has it the book can also conjure, making an entire world filled with beings and powers that have yet to exist."

She's learned of the Book of Prophecies and sees the potential to reach her goals.

----

Maleficent in Dream Drop Distance:

Maleficent: "--he shared everything with me - how to go about winning a heart over to the darkness, and, most gloriously, about the seven hearts of pure light - the ones that would grant me the power I need to conquer all worlds."

"However, the worlds were too complex, too much even for me to contain. It seemed I had miscalculated. Then it came to me-of course! I could go about conquering other worlds in my own manner. You do have the "data" for all the worlds, do you not? And now you will hand it over to me."

"I now know that what I seek lies within these walls."

The fact she mentions those two things back to back makes it apparent what she's trying to do; digitally recreate the 7 Princess of Heart worlds.

---

And what do we do in Unchained? Visit 4 out of 7 of the PoH worlds with a 5th appearing in the Special Episode/a Keyblade for the 5th appearing in the data.

Aaand we know Chi/Unchained's plots diverge. I imagine we'll travel to more worlds in Unchained after we catch up to the Chi plot.

Back Cover/the Chi credits are probably the true events of the Keyblade War (no player in either/BC is what's being used to catch people up for 3) while Chi and Unchained definitely seem like Maleficent's meddling to achieve her goals.
 
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Foxycian

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so does that mean all this time we were inside a world of dreams or book of propheciec since dream eaters like chirithy can only exist in a dream but what about the war event that can't be a dream when keyblade graveyard exist in the real world
 

Sephiroth0812

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It definitely sounds like Maleficent has the Tome of Prophecies.

---

Maleficent in Chi:

Maleficent: "Not even Sora and his friends can meddle in this world."

I don't think she's referring to the normal Realm of Light Enchanted Dominion. Why wouldn't Sora be able to get there?

I decided to look through older Maleficent cutscenes to put all of the relevant dialogue together.

---

Maleficent in 2.5:

Maleficent: "It's said to be capable of transcribing events that have yet to take place."

"--legend has it the book can also conjure, making an entire world filled with beings and powers that have yet to exist."

She's learned of the Book of Prophecies and sees the potential to reach her goals.

----

Maleficent in Dream Drop Distance:

Maleficent: "--he shared everything with me - how to go about winning a heart over to the darkness, and, most gloriously, about the seven hearts of pure light - the ones that would grant me the power I need to conquer all worlds."

"However, the worlds were too complex, too much even for me to contain. It seemed I had miscalculated. Then it came to me-of course! I could go about conquering other worlds in my own manner. You do have the "data" for all the worlds, do you not? And now you will hand it over to me."

"I now know that what I seek lies within these walls."

The fact she mentions those two things back to back makes it apparent what she's trying to do; digitally recreate the 7 Princess of Heart worlds.

---

And what do we do in Unchained? Visit 4 out of 7 of the PoH worlds with a 5th appearing in the Special Episode/a Keyblade for the 5th appearing in the data.

Aaand we know Chi/Unchained's plots diverge. I imagine we'll travel to more worlds in Unchained after we catch up to the Chi plot.

Back Cover/the Chi credits are probably the true events of the Keyblade War (no player in either/BC is what's being used to catch people up for 3) while Chi and Unchained definitely seem like Maleficent's meddling to achieve her goals.

*reads*
Hmm yea, I really like that approach and it makes sense with what we know from before as well.

So Maleficent is definitely trying to do her own thing, which means that maybe in KH III we will see a three-way conflict between Yen Sid, Sora & co., Xehanort's nortys and Maleficent.
 

JR199913

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Chirithy is an exception to the Dream Eater rule because they were man made. They have had to exist in the real world in order to have been created by the Master of Masters in the first place. It wouldn't be a retcon for Chirithy's to exist in the real world.
It's also possible Chirithies are just creatures in the real world and when they enter the RoS they become Dream Eaters. Like Riku became a Dream Eater, but what are the requirements for a creature to become a Dream Eater though.
In retrospect, it's kind of hilarious that the player doesn't just rip off the bangle after that scene - you still do guilt damage in the fights after Nightmare Chirithy.
Gameplay and story segregation at its finest.
Strictly spoken, anyone who doesn't want to "become" a traitor to the light and turn into a Seeker of Darkness should refrain from using any dark medals/cards at all as they're also represent the power of Darkness just like the guilt/sin.

---

As for the question if Maleficent traveled to the past or the "Player" to the present it is also possible that neither is correct because in the Realm of Sleep there is no time flow. If this is all a dream/in a dream world present day-Maleficent just entered that dream world, she didn't really time travel.
Dreams have to do with sleep, one of Maleficent's primary attributes so it is feasible that she's good in this stuff.

There's also this part from Ansem SoD in DDD that might become relevant to Chi-characters as well:
I am curious what they will do with the bangle in Unchained X. Are they just gonna blame it on, it was all a dream it's safe to use?

But the dream technically describes event of the past. So when I say she traveled back in time I mean that she uses the RoS or the ToP to travel back in time. So I guess that wasn't clear, thought I said that a few pages back...
Between those two, I think that she uses the ToP.
Not saying we travelled to the future either. There's something more going on. Think more like a Ven, stuck in a constant state of sleep and we were either awakened, or maleficent was able to enter that dream world we are currently in. As for why we're in a dream world in the first place, it could either be due to reliving the memories of the book of prophecies, or because since the keyblade war the player has been stuck in some constant state of endless dream, like what would of happened to Sora if Riku didn't save him, which makes the player constantly relive the memory of the keyblade war. Something like that. I don't think time travel has anything to do with it.
Yeah, I can get behind that.

It definitely sounds like Maleficent has the Tome of Prophecies.

---

Maleficent in Chi:

Maleficent: "Not even Sora and his friends can meddle in this world."

I don't think she's referring to the normal Realm of Light Enchanted Dominion. Why wouldn't Sora be able to get there?

I decided to look through older Maleficent cutscenes to put all of the relevant dialogue together.

---

Maleficent in 2.5:

Maleficent: "It's said to be capable of transcribing events that have yet to take place."

"--legend has it the book can also conjure, making an entire world filled with beings and powers that have yet to exist."

She's learned of the Book of Prophecies and sees the potential to reach her goals.

----

Maleficent in Dream Drop Distance:

Maleficent: "--he shared everything with me - how to go about winning a heart over to the darkness, and, most gloriously, about the seven hearts of pure light - the ones that would grant me the power I need to conquer all worlds."

"However, the worlds were too complex, too much even for me to contain. It seemed I had miscalculated. Then it came to me-of course! I could go about conquering other worlds in my own manner. You do have the "data" for all the worlds, do you not? And now you will hand it over to me."

"I now know that what I seek lies within these walls."

The fact she mentions those two things back to back makes it apparent what she's trying to do; digitally recreate the 7 Princess of Heart worlds.

---

And what do we do in Unchained? Visit 4 out of 7 of the PoH worlds with a 5th appearing in the Special Episode/a Keyblade for the 5th appearing in the data.

Aaand we know Chi/Unchained's plots diverge. I imagine we'll travel to more worlds in Unchained after we catch up to the Chi plot.

Back Cover/the Chi credits are probably the true events of the Keyblade War (no player in either/BC is what's being used to catch people up for 3) while Chi and Unchained definitely seem like Maleficent's meddling to achieve her goals.
ToP all the way!

Also I think it's important to note that when you start X Chi you start with a book (probably the ToP) opening and then you go to the Dive to the Heart and start the game (recieving your Keyblade, choosing a Union etc.). Everytime you travel between worlds and you select to go the left or right world, in the background a page of that same book changes. Everytime we pull for Cards, they come out of that same book. So I'm pretty sure we are in the ToP.

Then there is also the case that the ToP might be in the RoS, or the the ToP IS the RoS.
so does that mean all this time we were inside a world of dreams or book of propheciec since dream eaters like chirithy can only exist in a dream but what about the war event that can't be a dream when keyblade graveyard exist in the real world
Hmm... remember Pinocchio's world? His world was in the RoS yet we met him in Monstro. It's the same case.
 

AurisFlown

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Also I think it's important to note that when you start X Chi you start with a book (probably the ToP) opening and then you go to the Dive to the Heart and start the game (recieving your Keyblade, choosing a Union etc.). Every time you travel between worlds and you select to go the left or right world, in the background a page of that same book changes. Every time we pull for Cards, they come out of that same book. So I'm pretty sure we are in the ToP.

So...does that mean our Player somehow appeared in the ToP or are we looking at the Story of our Player from the Top? That also brings another question...Who was our Player before coming into the ToP? Because our Player had woken up from it's Sleep.

As we see him or her awaken, it feels as if its a Nobody, who doesnt remember who it is and as it follows the story, it becomes its own person, as we see it begin to speak before hitting the final stages of Chi.

---

Maybe the ToP is somehow connected with the RoS as the RoS is a place where time doesnt exist, while the ToP is (we think) a place where time is being looped over and over. (Master Ava gives us this suggestion)

And now it seems that, as some videos came out about KH 2.8, time does exist in the RoS but it's caused by an anomaly or something and its possible to reverse time as well, as seen in the videos from another Thread.
 

Xagzan

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Yeesh, god forbid Nomura write a coherent story from start to finish anymore, huh.
 

LightUpTheSky452

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Yeesh, god forbid Nomura write a coherent story from start to finish anymore, huh.

I can't believe that one short secret ending changed so much. Before all of this, we assumed that Chi was the real world and Unchained Key was a dream of it--and that after Skuld and Ephemer saved us in the ending of Chi, that was when we got pulled into the Realm of Sleep.

But now the Player and Chirithy think that Player fighting in the Keyblade Graveyard was all a dream (and who knows? Maybe it was), and with Maleficent in the mix--whilst knowing about Sora--we have absolutely no clue where or when we are anymore, or what's even happening.

Only Kingdom Hearts.

And Chi had seemed like it was finally making so much sense, too! Gah!

@Sephiroth0812 "So Maleficent is definitely trying to do her own thing, which means that maybe in KH III we will see a three-way conflict between Yen Sid, Sora & co., Xehanort's nortys and Maleficent." Here's hoping that KHIII's version of it goes a lot better than KHII's did. This is your chance, Nomura. Show us that you know how to do a three-side conflict without gypping any of the sides, and then we can call it a day and forget KHII's screwing over Maleficent and Pete ever happened:)

Edit: Anyone else here check out Soraalm1's theory about the secret ending. I really like it, actually, and could maybe see it being true. I kind of even want it to be true, because it seems a bit simpler than some other theories. Haha. :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO6X0ZfwS3I
 
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Vasquez

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I'm not a fan of Nomura putting major plot points in browser and mobile games, but whatever.

Back cover better give answers to all of this.

I like the data scape idea for the secret ending though.
 
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gosoxtim

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I'm not a fan of Nomura putting major plot points in browser and mobile games, but whatever.

Back cover better give answers to all of this.
maybe the fortller side but not the season 2 of unchained stuff
 

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I think that the Player and Chirithy are suffering from memory loss because of the unique way they got Unchained, the involvement of Kingdom Hearts and fighting in the Keyblade War must have suppressed some memories. Because Player and Chirithy are in the same pose they where in at the Keyblade Graveyard, so the Player is most likely in the RoS. So that means Season 2 is going to be about regaining memories, finding Ephemera and Skuld, and finding a way out, as well as foiling with Maleficent's plans, and stealing the Book of Prophecies. And perhaps after they leave they get found by Sora and Co. and join the fight?
 

AurisFlown

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Hmmm...I wonder though.

Before the Keyblade War and the talk with Master Ava, we did skip a few months.

Maybe all that we saw was about the what was about to happen in the future, As it seems not many Keyblade Wielders survived, except for some of the Dandelions, as according to Kairi's Grandma, they were the children who re-built the lands into our current worlds that we know of. So we can be certain that the KW hasn't happened yet, at this point.

Although, maybe Maleficent was able to enter into the Tomb of Prophecies or where ever this takes place and as she entered a certain point in time or area, Her interaction caused the Keyblade War to not exist in that moment. Maybe thats why instead of disappearing into the light or becoming unchained and ending the Story line of the Keyblade War, Because of her, the KW doesn't happen at that time, but instead will happen at another time, and the story continues on, since it seems she wasn't supposed to be in this Timeline, but now she is and the Timeline will fix itself, since no Multi-Verse Exists here.


---

Ya know, as I was typing this, I got another question in my mind. If we are now Unchained, shouldn't we be with Skuld and Ephemera right now? That's why I feel something is off or isn't right, at the moment...Maybe Unchained just means that your memory wont be altered anymore, to continue with the looping timeline?
 

Luxu

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Hmmm...I wonder though.

Before the Keyblade War and the talk with Master Ava, we did skip a few months.

Maybe all that we saw was about the what was about to happen in the future, As it seems not many Keyblade Wielders survived, except for some of the Dandelions, as according to Kairi's Grandma, they were the children who re-built the lands into our current worlds that we know of. So we can be certain that the KW hasn't happened yet, at this point.

Although, maybe Maleficent was able to enter into the Tomb of Prophecies or where ever this takes place and as she entered a certain point in time or area, Her interaction caused the Keyblade War to not exist in that moment. Maybe thats why instead of disappearing into the light or becoming unchained and ending the Story line of the Keyblade War, Because of her, the KW doesn't happen at that time, but instead will happen at another time, and the story continues on, since it seems she wasn't supposed to be in this Timeline, but now she is and the Timeline will fix itself, since no Multi-Verse Exists here.


---

Ya know, as I was typing this, I got another question in my mind. If we are now Unchained, shouldn't we be with Skuld and Ephemera right now? That's why I feel something is off or isn't right, at the moment...Maybe Unchained just means that your memory wont be altered anymore, to continue with the looping timeline?


I made a whole thread about this question, I think because of the way the Player became "Unchained" (Via use of Kingdom Hearts) I think that it teleported the Player somewhere else (That being Enchanted Domain in the Realm of Sleep) the Player is the real unique one in their little trio. Losing memories, being thrown into the Realm of Sleep, we can never catch a break!
 

AurisFlown

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I made a whole thread about this question, I think because of the way the Player became "Unchained" (Via use of Kingdom Hearts) I think that it teleported the Player somewhere else (That being Enchanted Domain in the Realm of Sleep) the Player is the real unique one in their little trio. Losing memories, being thrown into the Realm of Sleep, we can never catch a break!

I did read your theory.

But I will say that the only one who didn't lose their memory, was our player. Because it still remembered what had happened.

Chirity is somehow affected, even though it shouldn't be, which is why there is something wrong going on here. Chirity still said to go home with our Player and yet, Maleficent from the Future is in Enchanted Dominion too...what also brought something else to my attention, is that she is wondering where some person (most likely Pete) is at.

And we think that Pete is Julius in the RoS Battle in 3D.

So yea, what your saying is true, we are in the Realm of Sleep but I wonder if the ToP is connected to the RoS, with both place's having to do with Time not Moving....Hmm, maybe the ToP resides in the RoS, and the outside worlds Master Ava talks about, is the Worlds in the RoS...or possibly DayBreakTown is a World in the Realm of Sleep and we can Explore the Worlds within the ToP and the RoS...some how, that feels more likely than this all happening inside a book....maybe.
 

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I think that the Player and Chirithy are suffering from memory loss because of the unique way they got Unchained, the involvement of Kingdom Hearts and fighting in the Keyblade War must have suppressed some memories. Because Player and Chirithy are in the same pose they where in at the Keyblade Graveyard, so the Player is most likely in the RoS.

This is also what I think/hope is happening (it's way too confusing to consider otherwise). The actual ending said that Player would be asleep, after all (probably for some time), so I think it would make sense for some things to be foggy for them!

I mean, when Sora awoke after only sleeping a year in KHII, he completely forgot he even had magic in his first journey until Merlin reminded him of it (not to mention that he forgot how to even use it); and he lost a lot of his abilities, etc.

So how more would it make sense for Player to be effected in some similar way, then?

(Which also brings up some ideas about how Ven might be when he gets up.)

But really, it's the fact that we're in the same position we were in with Chirithy (where we left off that), that sells the Keyblade War thing really happening to me. I feel like it would just be too big a coincidence if that wasn't the case; and it's probably a narrative device the writers are using to try to inform us that everything we saw happen did and that this is the continuation of it.

@AurisFlown I think it's moreso that Player was probably asleep for years, as the ending of Chi (not to be confused with the Special Episode) hints at. And during that time, it would make sense for Ephemer and Skuld not to be with the sleeping player 24/7 (even though they'd probably want to, it wouldn't be realistic; not when Ephemer's the leader of the Dandelions). So maybe it's simply for that reason that they're not with Player right now. Maybe they're out doing something else, not even expecting Player to wake up at this point.

...Though tbh I do think that someone/something separated them, and is keeping Ephemer and Skuld from getting back to Player.

Though who really knows for sure?
 

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This is also what I think/hope is happening (it's way too confusing to consider otherwise). The actual ending said that Player would be asleep, after all (probably for some time), so I think it would make sense for some things to be foggy for them!

I mean, when Sora awoke after only sleeping a year in KHII, he completely forgot he even had magic in his first journey until Merlin reminded him of it (not to mention that he forgot how to even use it); and he lost a lot of his abilities, etc.

So how more would it make sense for Player to be effected in some similar way, then?

(Which also brings up some ideas about how Ven might be when he gets up.)

But really, it's the fact that we're in the same position we were in with Chirithy (where we left off that), that sells the Keyblade War thing really happening to me. I feel like it would just be too big a coincidence if that wasn't the case; and it's probably a narrative device the writers are using to try to inform us that everything we saw happen did and that this is the continuation of it.

@AurisFlown I think it's moreso that Player was probably asleep for years, as the ending of Chi (not to be confused with the Special Episode) hints at. And during that time, it would make sense for Ephemer and Skuld not to be with the sleeping player 24/7 (even though they'd probably want to, it wouldn't be realistic; not when Ephemer's the leader of the Dandelions). So maybe it's simply for that reason that they're not with Player right now. Maybe they're out doing something else, not even expecting Player to wake up at this point.

...Though tbh I do think that someone/something separated them, and is keeping Ephemer and Skuld from getting back to Player.

Though who really knows for sure?

Wow, the Player must have been asleep for thousands of years and most likely still knows how to use medals (or cards). But if Maleficent found out about the Player's usage of medals (or cards) chances are she would try to kidnap them and try to use them to try to find the book. And if Ven is a Dandelion? So he would use medals so maybe he doesn't really know magic, but uses medals? But still, I think Season 2 will be about the Player finding out what happened, find Ephemera and Skuld, finding a way out, and defeating Maleficent
 

gosoxtim

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I kind of think being unchained erase our memories of the war because we were never meant to involved in the war
 
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