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News ► SPOILERS Kingdom Hearts X[chi] - Meeting Skuld



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The_Echo

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He could still be a good or least some sort "destiny has to happen" kind of guy, maybe his plans just backfired badly.
Maybe he believes the only way to protect Kingdom Hearts is to keep the χ-blade safe? Which would require forging it, to make sure someone with ill intentions doesn't.

And then he may have taken the role of the darkness because he knew it was a dangerous path, or because having his apprentices work for light was easier?
 

Sephiroth0812

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Amen.

I've been pretty quiet on the Rebirth theory but I might as well go on the record as 100% against.
I personally find no evidence to support the idea outside of matching color schemes, which is like... come on.

The only present-day character I expect to have a relation to the cast of χ[chi] is Xehanort, which is more or less confirmed anyway.
glad I'm not the only one :p
Huh, I'm not the only one who feels the same too.

I would assume that there are quite some people around who think this way, mainly because technically spoken half of the cast already consists already of clones even if it is just by appearance.
So getting yet another set with the Foretellers might be the last straw...

Perhaps I should be more clear.... Remember the journal? Sora was the catalyst of that book even though Jiminy was the one who wrote it ultimately all the memories for the most part within the journal belonged to Sora, it was a record of his events. This was a key as to why Data Sora's Heartless ultimately had so much power over it. In addition the journal held memories of people who were part of Sora which is why Data Roxas is a thing that exists even though he never was even slightly something hand written into the journal. I believe Mickey said it best "the journal isn't just a record it's a collection of all we felt, it's what's in our hearts". Ultimately none of these memories in the journal actually belonged to the journal but instead they belonged to the people and places that journal was written about.

So then comes book of prophecies which was compared to the journal by the game itself. It's highly plausible that the contents of the book are actually just a collection of memories that belonged to key people. In fact that's heavily implied given that all the worlds summoned are places we've been and all the cards/medals are characters we've seen with some you know official art thrown into the mix. My thought is that the book of prophecies is essentially a record of the lives of the guardians of light, a record of what was inside their hearts. Then its contents were transferred into those 5 followers transforming them into copies of TAVRK.

So Ursus had the contents of Terra's heart that was recorded into the journal transferred into him. Letting him take Terra's form and gain Terra's immense power which is also silently reflected in his keyblade, it looks kind of like Terra's and yet it's distinctly its own thing. So Ursus would look like Terra, sound like Terra, have Terra's powers, have Terra's memories, but ultimately would still be his own person.

Also the Master of Master is a grand keyblade master who can see the future I think it's plausible enough that he could divide the contents of the book among his apprentices.

I see, well, Jiminy's journal however chronicles memories and events of the past, so that is pretty logical as is the comparison with the Book of Prophecies when looking at all the cards and medals. Yet those cards and medals show hundreds of characters and people, not only TAV and Riku/Kairi, which begs the question why only these five and why would their memories be planted into these Foretellers in the first place? The Guardians of Light-issue is also iffy since there are supposed to be seven, not only five. In the end it doesn't fully add up.

If Ursus would have the full contents of Terra's heart him being an own person would be questionable.
Beings like Roxas, Naminé, Xion or Vanitas are specifically different and may be considered their own persons because they do NOT have all the memories of the people they originated from.
Data-Sora developed into something different from Sora because he created new memories the "original" Sora doesn't have (the whole journey in Re: Coded) and because he doesn't have all the contents/memories of the original Sora's heart, only those that where stored in Jiminy's journal (which deals mostly with KH 1).

It is certainly better in line with the overall KH lore and mythos though than the "Rebirth"-theory so that's definitely a plus.

I think both are plausible they could have been beings very much like replicas or they could just be regular apprentices who were infused with TAVRK's memories. Ultimately though this isn't too important a detail because the end result is the same you get a version of TAVRK with all their real power that is still their own person.

No matter how you spin it though it results in just yet another set of clones appearancewise, something I'd rather avoid.
Seriously, this would be the sixth version of Sora/Ventus (Sora, Ventus, Roxas, Vanitas, Data-Sora + Leopardus), the fourth of Riku (Riku, Riku Replica, Data-Riku + Unicornis) and the fourth of Kairi (Kairi, Naminé, Xion + Vulpeus).
For Aqua and Terra it would be the first clone but still unnecessary causing more confusion among the audience.
BBS and Coded were already border-case anyways and while I personally was still ok with it, many other are/were already sick of the constant cloning blues back then.

If this is really going to happen yet again and the Foretellers are nothing but dumb copies of already existing characters, I'd start a petition to rename KH officially into "Game of Clones" and will refer to it as such!

Both Ephemera and Skuld are so far characters with a largely original design, so I'll cross fingers that this applies to all new characters from the Chi era.
You can draw parallels and connections without having characters literally being the same.

He could still be a good or least some sort "destiny has to happen" kind of guy, maybe his plans just backfired badly.

I'm pretty certain that anyone who willingly wants to cause an apocalypse cannot be called "good" in any feasible manner without questioning sanity.
This whole "Destiny"-crap is nothing but a thinly veiled excuse to justify heinous actions and spreading chaos to begin with.
 

rac7d

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Calling it! Skuld is the traitorous Foreteller. She has the same coloured eyes as Xehanort, her Chirithy is not beside her, and most importantly, Ephemera would have mentioned something about her if he was truly affiliated with Skuld.

And to further clarify, Nightmare Chirithy is Skuld's Chirithy.

she doesnt have blue eyes so that maight be sighn
 

AurisFlown

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she doesnt have blue eyes so that maight be sighn


That might just mean that she isn't part of the main destiny thing, since it seems those who have blue eyes or similar are a part of some destiny or it could be Nohmura's was of saying "This here is an Original Character" or something.

(pretty sure I spelled his name wrong)

I mean like, have you noticed that the player isn't allowed to change their eye color but everything else okay?
 

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Given the events in the cut-scenes...I'll just say this, I am in before players start getting recruited to a union of darkness which would act as a 6th union. Perhaps causing 3-way battles instead of 2-way battles.
 
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It is certainly better in line with the overall KH lore and mythos though than the "Rebirth"-theory so that's definitely a plus.

I don't really understand how it is. Reincarnation is actually a very natural expansion of the lore. I thought it was a logical conclusion to three aspects of the series:

1. The Keyblade War is the "Apocalypse" of the series. Everything is destroyed and then rebuilt anew.
2. There is no traditional concept of "death" in the series. Just "sleep." People are swallowed by the darkness and there is generally a method for them to return. For instance, when one's Heartless and Nobody are destroyed, that person returns to life. In that respect, they're "reborn," albeit into the same life they had prior to their "death."
3. Destiny, destiny, destiny. The nature of events in this series is cyclical. "Relived again and again... like déjà vu."

If we take all of that to be true, what the hell happened to all of the people in the universe prior to the first Keyblade War? There's no "death," right? So in some fashion, these people still exist. But this isn't like when one person is consumed by darkness, or even when a world is consumed by darkness; we're talking about almost the entire universe being consumed by darkness, and then being restored/restructured by a handful of people into the worlds we now know.

Obviously, a heart can return from the darkness. So here's one for you: Assuming a heart from the pre-Keyblade War universe is brought back from the darkness in a post-Keyblade War universe, what would happen? Well, we can't know for sure, but at the very least the person can't just reassume their previous life as they knew it. As I said, the entire universe was restructured into individual worlds. That person is going to lead a different life. I imagine their memories would have gotten a good cleansing too. We know darkness can wipe memories over time. Given the magnitude of the universe ending in darkness, I don't think it's a leap to say that the darkness could do more permanent damage. But still, deep down, they're fundamentally the same person, and likely to do the same things. Destiny and all that, right?

And that's it, really. We've already got a variation of rebirth in the series (Nobodies = "a new you") and the theme of a metaphorical rebirth has been done before (reverse/rebirth). Plus, despite the fact that we still don't have a concrete definition for "birth by sleep," it's not hard to figure out. If "sleep" in the series is the equivalent to death, as I mentioned, then "birth by sleep" = "birth by death" AKA "rebirth." I think it's plenty at home in this series.

If by "in line" with the lore, you mean it's more or less just using a concept that we've already been introduced to, then sure. I don't personally find that to be more palatable myself. I remember the days we were speculating that Unversed were replicas, and back then that theory was certainly "in line" with the lore.

In this case, even if it's a concept we've seen before, I don't think it fits well thematically.
ShardOfTruth suggested that the Foretellers may have been infused with the memories of our heroes in order to make them better GoL. This is basically identity theft, though, and it's the modus operandi of the bad guys, not the good guys. By placing his heart in others, Xehanort seeks to impose his will on them, and to destroy their individuality. Someone like Sora, by comparison, believes that everyone deserves to be their own person. I can't picture the good guys using such a subversive technique. It undermines their values.


No matter how you spin it though it results in just yet another set of clones appearancewise, something I'd rather avoid.
Seriously, this would be the sixth version of Sora/Ventus (Sora, Ventus, Roxas, Vanitas, Data-Sora + Leopardus), the fourth of Riku (Riku, Riku Replica, Data-Riku + Unicornis) and the fourth of Kairi (Kairi, Naminé, Xion + Vulpeus).
For Aqua and Terra it would be the first clone but still unnecessary causing more confusion among the audience.
BBS and Coded were already border-case anyways and while I personally was still ok with it, many other are/were already sick of the constant cloning blues back then.

I came up with the rebirth theory in part as a compromise on this very issue. I know it's hard to picture now, but when I came up with it, no one was pointing out the physical similarities between the Foretellers and our heroes (which, in hindsight, is obvious). That's literally what prompted me to make the theory--"Why do they look so similar?"

I had two options: To dismiss it as some kind of red herring or just run with it. And I couldn't, in good conscience, dismiss it. I think most people at some level want to dismiss it because "clones" have been rampant in this series, but that's exactly why I couldn't dismiss it. This series, whether we like it or not, has had "clones" in it, or some variation thereof, in virtually every installment since 2004. I don't know what Nomura's obsession is with that theme, but that's just how it is. And it isn't going to be any different in KH3. We're technically getting at least 13 of them.

It's true that in one instance appearance was used as a red herring of sorts--for Xion. Given that she literally IS a clone, not the greatest example to counter with lol.
So that's how I approached it. And using the concepts I discussed above, I came up with rebirth theory. I call it a compromise because, under the theory, the Foretellers are not really "clones" per se, they're just... well, characters we already know. If the theory is right, to what degree they would look like the heroes as we know them is pretty much a crapshoot.

I'll go on the record as saying that I would love for the Foretellers to be completely original characters, but I apparently don't have the same faith in the series that you have at this point.
 
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The_Echo

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1. The Keyblade War is the "Apocalypse" of the series. Everything is destroyed and then rebuilt anew.

According to legend, not all was destroyed. The World was rebuilt, the way it is now, with the Light from the hearts of children, which was too bright to be swallowed by the darkness.

2. There is no traditional concept of "death" in the series. Just "sleep." People are swallowed by the darkness and there is generally a method for them to return. For instance, when one's Heartless and Nobody are destroyed, that person returns to life. In that respect, they're "reborn," albeit into the same life they had prior to their "death."
Tsk, tsk.

Secret Ansem Report 4 said:
Three elements combine to create a life: a heart, a soul, and a body.
But what of the soul and body left behind when the heart is lost?
When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves?
A being does not perish when its heart leaves its body. The heart alone disappears into the darkness.
 
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According to legend, not all was destroyed. The World was rebuilt, the way it is now, with the Light from the hearts of children, which was too bright to be swallowed by the darkness.

That's why I said "almost the entire universe" a few sentences later. Apologies for taking a few liberties with the key strokes? Didn't think someone would be grasping that hard--does not invalidate anything I said.

Tsk, tsk.

So how many tsks do I get?
Tetsuya Nomura said:
In the world of KH there is no concept of death
 

The_Echo

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That's why I said "almost the entire universe" a few sentences later. Apologies for taking a few liberties with the key strokes? Didn't think someone would be grasping that hard--does not invalidate anything I said.
You caught me skimming, I admit it.
So how many tsks do I get?
Presented with conflicting information of equal validity, I would say what's true is up to the beholder.
Though, if I'm honest, I'd like to see the Japanese for that quote 'cause I remember it raising a pretty high eyebrow when I read that interview.

Backing up a bit, you posit that people may have been reborn after the Keyblade War, not necessarily as different people, but the same people with different memories (to make the transition better).
My question is, isn't that a bit too convenient? Does everyone lose those memories? Even the children who weren't swallowed up?

I would think the more natural process would be that the Keyblade War was simply lost to the ages, eventually reduced to nothing more than a legend.

If the Foretellers were reborn into the main cast, is this to imply that the cast we know are the first generations after the Keyblade War? Or do people keep reincarnating?

And are the events in this series cyclical? The quote you pull is in reference to how often Sora visits Traverse Town (one of the adventures mentioned not even being Sora proper), but looking at the larger picture of the series chronology, while there are consistent themes and parallels, events aren't really replaying themselves.
The events of χ[chi] are noticeably unique, and one might think that this is where we would see the cycle reinforced the most.

Does a cyclical nature in time not also speak ill to the future of the franchise? I don't think anyone wants another Zelda situation.
That's not really an in-universe thing, but y'know.

I suppose my biggest issue with the theory is that it's a lot of supposition and conjecture. Outside of vague similarities in appearance, there isn't much in the way of hard evidence to support it. So I don't feel a reason to put much stake in it.
 
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Presented with conflicting information of equal validity, I would say what's true is up to the beholder.
Though, if I'm honest, I'd like to see the Japanese for that quote 'cause I remember it raising a pretty high eyebrow when I read that interview.

They're not of equal validity. That statement by Tetsuya Nomura was made 4-5 years after KH2.
It's been a pretty well-established fact for some time now, and I'm surprised that anyone is arguing against it at this point. Especially with a suggestion that it was a translation error (it's not).

Regardless of whether or not there was room for a traditional concept of death in the series at some earlier point in time, there has never been, nor will there ever be, any focus on it. It's a non-factor.
If you're seriously willing to entertain that notion, are you going to suggest that the people who existed before the Keyblade War all literally died? Like, not "sleep" death, but actual death? Because that's the road you're going to have to ultimately go down in order to refute my point.

Backing up a bit, you posit that people may have been reborn after the Keyblade War, not necessarily as different people, but the same people with different memories (to make the transition better).
My question is, isn't that a bit too convenient? Does everyone lose those memories? Even the children who weren't swallowed up?

What's convenient about it? I'm not saying they are born with different memories, I'm saying their old memories were wiped. Blank slate. I find it odd that memory loss as a plot device is being alleged as too convenient in this series.
Tampering with the chain of memories can make people lose memories. Darkness can make people lose their memories. Time travel can make people lose their memories.
Out of curiosity, did you find it convenient that Young Xehanort, simply be returning to his original time, loses his memories?

So what about the idea that the World ending in darkness makes it too convenient that people lost their memories?

If the Foretellers were reborn into the main cast, is this to imply that the cast we know are the first generations after the Keyblade War? Or do people keep reincarnating?.

The former. Let me be clear: I am not suggesting that people just continuously die and are reborn. This is a one-time reincarnation. It's history repeating itself. Just as the Foretellers would (presumably) have been born within a couple decades before the first Keyblade War, they would be reborn as our heroes within a couple decades before the second Keyblade War.

Think of it like the Big Bounce. The universe begins (Big Bang), and ends (Big Crunch), and begins again (Big Bang), and ends again (Big Crunch). A cycle where the starting conditions of the universe are relatively the same such that things play out relatively the same, albeit with some notable differences. I am not, to preempt the accusation, saying that things are playing out exactly the same with all the same people in the same places, times, etc. This does not boil down to questions like, "IF HISTORY IS REPEATING ITSELF, WHERE IS SKULD???" As I said, I think there are notable differences, but the broad strokes are the same and the key players are, well, playing their parts.

As for why it's a bit different this time as opposed to the last, this goes into my question of "What happened to all those people?". Although I do think people were revived, I don't think everyone was. "So many are still waiting for their new beginning... their birth by sleep."

And are the events in this series cyclical? The quote you pull is in reference to how often Sora visits Traverse Town (one of the adventures mentioned not even being Sora proper), but looking at the larger picture of the series chronology, while there are consistent themes and parallels, events aren't really replaying themselves.
The events of χ[chi] are noticeably unique, and one might think that this is where we would see the cycle reinforced the most.

Does a cyclical nature in time not also speak ill to the future of the franchise? I don't think anyone wants another Zelda situation.
That's not really an in-universe thing, but y'know..

The counterpart to the events of χ would likely be set in KH3. First Keyblade War compared to the Second Keyblade War. So there isn't really much to compare it to at this point, and that's even assuming the χ is, in fact, the exact historical events leading into the First Keyblade War. It may be that this is, for example, a retelling of those events in the Sleeping Worlds (in which case there would be some variations), so let's wait to see how that plays out. But if your issue is that there are so many keyblade wielders in the First Keyblade War, and apparently a select few in the second (from what we've seen so far), there's a couple points on that:

- As I said, it's not an exact reoccurrence of history. I don't think every keyblade wielder from the First Keyblade War has been reborn in time for the second.
- Even then, there's reason to believe we may get more than just a handful of keyblade wielders in the Second Keyblade War: "This X-blade will open a door--one that leads to all worlds! Then, Keyblade-bearing warriors will flock here from each and every one of them, to battle for the light within Kingdom Hearts! And just like the legend says, the Keyblade War will begin!"

The reason why I included that Xehanort quote is to show that, even within the universe as it currently stands and on a smaller scale, things continuously repeat themselves, and I don't think that's an accident.

Additionally, the main villain's entire motivation is born out of circular cause and consequence.
Young Xehanort said:
While I know this future now that I have lived it, returning to
my own time will erase the memories and experiences I have gained here.
Still, my appointed path is now etched in my heart, which will first lead me
to seek the outside world.
He travelled to the past to ensure that his young self would grow up into the evil bastard he became, and when his young self grew up, he travelled to the past to... yeah. You get it.

If you had asked people about time travel in this series prior to KH3D, I think the resounding consensus would have been "diddly no." Don't underestimate the lows lol.
 
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ShardofTruth

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I think it's all about perspective. The Rebirth theory and Hirokey's "variation" have many similarities. But while the Rebirth theory says the parallels introduced in [chi]'s story are actually repetitions because time is a circle, Hirokey says the parallels are truly parallels because (mostly) the same methods are used. Hirokey's explanation has the advantage that not everything has to fit while there are problems with the Rebirth theory that can't be easily ignored (the height of the Foretellers and SRKTVA is often brought up for example), that's why I think it serves as a better explanation at the moment.

I also agree that the Rebirth concept is not that alien in the Kingdom Hearts universe, heck even [chi] itself uses it for ultimizing its cards, so I won't out rule it yet.

And yes, if the Master of Masters really takes the role of Xehanort in [chi] he is probably not a good guy like Sora but without further details I don't think any arguments regarding his motives hold much water. Personally I hope he just isn't the true villian behind Xehanort's every move.

As for the horde of clones: If you graps the Dark Seeker Saga as a story that is mostly about Xehanort, Sora, Riku and Kairi and see their "clones" as continuations and variations of their characters to illustrate different points Nomura wants to make, I don't think it it's really that bad. It certainly isn't perfect but personally I don't think that an original characters make a better story is true at all.
 

Audo

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Weirdly, I think this might be the first time I've seen people argue that the two statements about death in KH were mutually exclusive and that one trumps the other. I always thought general consensus was that "true death" as described in Ansem's Report is possible, but that most people (and all the kinds of "death" we've seen so far in the series, except maybe Repliku) fell under the sleep thing that Nomura talks about. If true death isn't possible anymore then how can one accept that KH3 will be the end of Xehanort for good, after all? So I thought fandom had mostly believed both to be true, and not one to be truer than the other. So this is interesting.

As for the Nomura interview in question, as the translator herself has frequently said, over and over, since the translation came out, we need to keep in mind that when Nomura is talking about the concept of death he is speaking to a Japanese audience who generally have a different cultural understanding of it than we might have, and that is key in interpreting his response as well and shouldn't be forgotten.
 

Dandelion

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I also hasten to add that we HAVE seen characters die permanent death, and we've seen it referred to in conversation amongst the original characters. Xehanort's body snatching was because of fear of death before his dream was reached, afterall. He tells Vanitas, in no uncertain terms, to end Aqua's life. Riku and Repliku talk, explicitly, about death and what happens to a heart when someone dies. No conclusion is ever reached save that Repliku's heart would do what Riku's would.

Culturally, Riku also believes in some sort of hell or afterlife as he mentions it when he first materializes in the Dark Realm in Final mix.
 

Sephiroth0812

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If we take all of that to be true, what the hell happened to all of the people in the universe prior to the first Keyblade War? There's no "death," right? So in some fashion, these people still exist. But this isn't like when one person is consumed by darkness, or even when a world is consumed by darkness; we're talking about almost the entire universe being consumed by darkness, and then being restored/restructured by a handful of people into the worlds we now know.

Obviously, a heart can return from the darkness. So here's one for you: Assuming a heart from the pre-Keyblade War universe is brought back from the darkness in a post-Keyblade War universe, what would happen? Well, we can't know for sure, but at the very least the person can't just reassume their previous life as they knew it. As I said, the entire universe was restructured into individual worlds. That person is going to lead a different life. I imagine their memories would have gotten a good cleansing too. We know darkness can wipe memories over time. Given the magnitude of the universe ending in darkness, I don't think it's a leap to say that the darkness could do more permanent damage.
Pretty simple actually, they all perished for good, maybe they reside in some Void Beyond, Fields of Elysium or whatever you want to call it, but it would certainly be a place where no return from is possible as otherwise no threat could ever be truly vanquished.

While it is true that a heart can return from the Darkness, there are several conditions to fulfill in order for it to happen and it always requires the heart to be somehow connected to another heart that currently "lives". Not to mention the brought back heart never turns into a different person.
Maleficent for example was only able to re-manifest because the three fairies remembered her.
The whole clutter from the first Keyblade War though should be long forgotten by now and have no more connections to living hearts that could bring them back so it should not be possible to just simply "return" a heart from the "pre-Keyblade War universe".
Except maybe if there really IS something about that black Goatblade (and possibly all Keyblades too), who knows, maybe the Keyblades that are "currently" in use in the current universe actually all have a heart from a person of the "pre-Keyblade War universe" inside them?
This would of course also throw up the question what the Keyblades used by the people in x[chi] are made of.


But still, deep down, they're fundamentally the same person, and likely to do the same things. Destiny and all that, right?
And that's exactly where the main problem (as far as I can see and have observed) comes from as Riku, Kairi and TAV would no longer be themselves but just cheap ripoffs/shadows of the colossal failures that are the "Foretellers".

And that's it, really. We've already got a variation of rebirth in the series (Nobodies = "a new you") and the theme of a metaphorical rebirth has been done before (reverse/rebirth). Plus, despite the fact that we still don't have a concrete definition for "birth by sleep," it's not hard to figure out. If "sleep" in the series is the equivalent to death, as I mentioned, then "birth by sleep" = "birth by death" AKA "rebirth." I think it's plenty at home in this series.
Except that "Birth by Sleep" explicitly refers to the people pictured in Blank Points returning to the world, that was the whole issue where Nomura brought these statements up in the BBS Ultimania, as the exact same individuals they already are, not some ripoff of some ancient weirdo. Aqua would return as Aqua, Ansem the Wise as Ansem the Wise and so on, that's essentially talking about revival/resurrection (except that TAV, Roxas & co are not really dead anyways), which is only possible due to their direct connection with Sora (Ansem the Wise states so in DDD as well), not reincarnation, those are two different concepts.


In this case, even if it's a concept we've seen before, I don't think it fits well thematically.
ShardOfTruth suggested that the Foretellers may have been infused with the memories of our heroes in order to make them better GoL. This is basically identity theft, though, and it's the modus operandi of the bad guys, not the good guys. By placing his heart in others, Xehanort seeks to impose his will on them, and to destroy their individuality. Someone like Sora, by comparison, believes that everyone deserves to be their own person. I can't picture the good guys using such a subversive technique. It undermines their values.
Uh, but by that you imply that the Foretellers and whoever did this whole thing are the "good guys" while that is not made clear in the slightest.
In fact in X[chi] we don't know who the "good guys" are at all and who are the "bad guys" if this distinction can even be made at all.
So far in X[chi] there is no one where you can 100% say "that's a good guy".



I came up with the rebirth theory in part as a compromise on this very issue. I know it's hard to picture now, but when I came up with it, no one was pointing out the physical similarities between the Foretellers and our heroes (which, in hindsight, is obvious). That's literally what prompted me to make the theory--"Why do they look so similar?"

I had two options: To dismiss it as some kind of red herring or just run with it. And I couldn't, in good conscience, dismiss it. I think most people at some level want to dismiss it because "clones" have been rampant in this series, but that's exactly why I couldn't dismiss it. This series, whether we like it or not, has had "clones" in it, or some variation thereof, in virtually every installment since 2004. I don't know what Nomura's obsession is with that theme, but that's just how it is. And it isn't going to be any different in KH3. We're technically getting at least 13 of them.

It's true that in one instance appearance was used as a red herring of sorts--for Xion. Given that she literally IS a clone, not the greatest example to counter with lol.
So that's how I approached it. And using the concepts I discussed above, I came up with rebirth theory. I call it a compromise because, under the theory, the Foretellers are not really "clones" per se, they're just... well, characters we already know. If the theory is right, to what degree they would look like the heroes as we know them is pretty much a crapshoot.

I'll go on the record as saying that I would love for the Foretellers to be completely original characters, but I apparently don't have the same faith in the series that you have at this point.
Maybe I'm just a blockhead then as I don't really see the "compromise" since from where I stand it not only cheapens TAV + Riku & Kairi, it also does not make the Foretellers "new" characters at all since unlike Roxas or Xion, they wouldn't even be hybrids/variations with other influences to set them apart.

That's certainly part of it as well and I may very well be part of that group as well.
The main problem with Nomura is that he doesn't understand that parallels do not equate to "the same" and not needing always an intricate "deep" connection forged with a hammer.
The "13" are just Xehanort expanding on techniques from Lord Voldemort though, lol, and aside from Ansem and Xemnas, who are somewhat true "Nortspawns" as well as Trollanort, whos the teen version of old Overnort, the others are all more or less slaves whose true personality is held prisoner in their own hearts, neither "clones" nor "reincarnations" but living meatpuppets.

Xion was created as a clone, yes, but development and connections with others turned her into a distinct person of her own, she's neither Sora, nor Roxas or Kairi.

Faith in the series? Haha, despite all of Nomura's creativity a good storyteller he is not I'm afraid. It's less about faith and more about having fingers crossed and hoping that for once he might use a more creative idea than to just copy character designs yet again and possibly destroy already established characters with it.
I always try to have a positive outlook towards things, lol, but maybe Anagram's attitude has rubbed off on me a little bit by now. ;P

I think it's all about perspective. The Rebirth theory and Hirokey's "variation" have many similarities. But while the Rebirth theory says the parallels introduced in [chi]'s story are actually repetitions because time is a circle, Hirokey says the parallels are truly parallels because (mostly) the same methods are used. Hirokey's explanation has the advantage that not everything has to fit while there are problems with the Rebirth theory that can't be easily ignored (the height of the Foretellers and SRKTVA is often brought up for example), that's why I think it serves as a better explanation at the moment.
That's practically the main gist of it which I have as well. Hirokey's "variant" allows to interpret true parallels and may also open the possibility of the "Foretellers" actually being different persons (in personality and appearance) if they are stripped of the memories that don't belong to them.
The whole damn thing being just repetitions and "cycles" (the very first Final Fantasy, Dissidia, Type-0 and many others already did this to death) is so excruciatingly boring that probably not even the biggest hyperactive nerd would get excited about it.
Not to mention it would make every effort of nearly all the characters moot cause destiny, destroying any sense of accomplishment even worse than DDD's Xehanort time tourist tours did.

As for the horde of clones: If you graps the Dark Seeker Saga as a story that is mostly about Xehanort, Sora, Riku and Kairi and see their "clones" as continuations and variations of their characters to illustrate different points Nomura wants to make, I don't think it it's really that bad. It certainly isn't perfect but personally I don't think that an original characters make a better story is true at all.
Well that could work, however the series itself is going out of its way to actually drastically portray the exact opposite by establishing characters like Roxas, Naminé, Xion and the BBS-crew as their own individuals apart from "Sora, Riku and Kairi", but without truly showing it off.
The problem lies again with the writing not really drawing true parallels between the characters but making repetitions out of them.

If true death isn't possible anymore then how can one accept that KH3 will be the end of Xehanort for good, after all? So I thought fandom had mostly believed both to be true, and not one to be truer than the other. So this is interesting.

That's why I think there has to be a "Void Beyond" or similar "realm" where hearts can be sent to from where there is no return.
Memories are immortal, so much we know since CoM and since memories are the main "component" of a heart, Xehanort's essence probably cannot be erased from existence completely/thoroughly, but it may be possible to send it somewhere where it can't return from (except he probably does when Nomura decides on a whim to bring Xehanort back in the third or fourth saga).

I don't know if I recall correctly, but wasn't it so that when game source and interview source stand in direct conflict, the game source (as primary medium overall) takes precedence?
It should also maybe be noted that the context in which Nomura stated that bit was in a section about Blank Points, thus probably mostly referring to the people directly connected to Sora, not to a general universal rule.
 
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BlackOsprey

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That's practically the main gist of it which I have as well. Hirokey's "variant" allows to interpret true parallels and may also open the possibility of the "Foretellers" actually being different persons (in personality and appearance) if they are stripped of the memories that don't belong to them.
The whole damn thing being just repetitions and "cycles" (the very first Final Fantasy, Dissidia, Type-0 and many others already did this to death) is so excruciatingly boring that probably not even the biggest hyperactive nerd would get excited about it.
Not to mention it would make every effort of nearly all the characters moot cause destiny, destroying any sense of accomplishment even worse than DDD's Xehanort time tourist tours did.
I'm getting a strong feeling that this cyclic destiny dogma will be set up for the sole purpose of having a climactic "Screw Destiny!" moment from the friendship-empowered heroes. It's clichéd as all hell, but it seems likely if at least part of this theory proves to be true.

I don't know if I recall correctly, but wasn't it so that when game source and interview source stand in direct conflict, the game source (as primary medium overall) takes precedence?
It should also maybe be noted that the context in which Nomura stated that bit was in a section about Blank Points, thus probably mostly referring to the people directly connected to Sora, not to a general universal rule.

I'm of the mind that "there's no concept of death in KH" means "I haven't worked out a detailed and complicated mythos for the afterlife yet." Which is a true statement. For a series as lore-heavy as this, the details of a heart's posthumous existence are surprisingly vague.
 

Audo

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I'm getting a strong feeling that this cyclic destiny dogma will be set up for the sole purpose of having a climactic "Screw Destiny!" moment from the friendship-empowered heroes. It's clichéd as all hell, but it seems likely if at least part of this theory proves to be true.
There was sort of such a moment in KH3D, but they changed it for the English release lol.
 

Ballad of Caius

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There was sort of such a moment in KH3D, but they changed it for the English release lol.

Meh. Sounds KH enough. Through the power of collectivism, the threat known as Xehanort will forever be subjugated. I can even see "Reconnect: Kingdom Hearts" on my TV screen already. I can hear Sora having a monologue as the endgame cutscenes play out, saying how it's important to always rely on someone else, to connect your heart with others. Saying that the true Kingdom Hearts is the power in the bonds of every hearts we touched, and all that jazz.

But back to Skuld, lol. Although I would like to see her in Unreal Engine 4 HD 3D model, I'm getting this vibe that we might be some chi characters in Back Cover, but not in KH3.
 

ShardofTruth

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There was sort of such a moment in KH3D, but they changed it for the English release lol.
The "All for one, one for all" still happens like a hundred times, so we are good.

Besides that I also think that these cutesy friendship is my power trope is overdone in any medium, in Kingdom Hearts there really seems to be power coming from it, not just some fighting spirit, so I'm kinda okay with it.

But back to Skuld, lol. Although I would like to see her in Unreal Engine 4 HD 3D model, I'm getting this vibe that we might be some chi characters in Back Cover, but not in KH3.
Why waste a perfectly good character model? Data replica bosses for the Foretellers and other [chi] characters for Kingdom Hearts III Final Mix confirmed.
 

Ballad of Caius

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The "All for one, one for all" still happens like a hundred times, so we are good.

Besides that I also think that these cutesy friendship is my power trope is overdone in any medium, in Kingdom Hearts there really seems to be power coming from it, not just some fighting spirit, so I'm kinda okay with it.


Why waste a perfectly good character model? Data replica bosses for the Foretellers and other [chi] characters for Kingdom Hearts III Final Mix confirmed.

lol I like that idea of fighting chi characters as optional bosses.
 

.xone

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Howdy.. Thing just get burned as other not expected it to be..
 
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