Just as long as you all stay civil and don't insult people personally, it's all good with me.
[SPOILER] KH2.8 Special credits (the one on the game selection menu)
- Thread starter MATGSY
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It's clear Sora loves both of them a lot. Hence, polyamory.
With SoKai, I kinda feel like Kairi has a crush on Sora, while Sora just doesn't share the same feelings as Kairi - but I can see how one might think SoKai is the definitive Pairing. It's still nice that you, Darkos, were able to admit that it might be because of Kairi's lack of development that the ship is ruined - not many people can do that.
Anyways, we all know SoRiku might never happen because of Disney, but that doesn't mean Nomura can't subtly give some 'hints' or confirm it subtly.
Anyways, we all know SoRiku might never happen because of Disney, but that doesn't mean Nomura can't subtly give some 'hints' or confirm it subtly.
It's kinda hard for me to compare these ships because Riku got way more things going on in the KH games and his own development that shaped his character while Kairi didn't get much especially compared to him (plus as her being one of the main female characters). KH is in general a mess when it comes to female characters where Aqua's character is one of the few female characters that got fleshed out.
Sometimes I wonder if Sora and Riku only get the friendship-stamp on because they are two dude bros doing dude bro things ... Sora and Riku have more interactions than Sora and Kairi, while I can somehow see people saying they are like brothers I can't apply the same to Kairi by saying she's like a sister not because SoKai gives me romantic vibes because I don't ship it ... but because her character is lacking (imo) because they didn't bother to give her more depth? (not saying she doesn't have any) Just with her role in the games it's for me personally not enough to ship her with the main male character. I don't even see them crushing on each other because it feels so out of place to me.
Sometimes I wonder if Sora and Riku only get the friendship-stamp on because they are two dude bros doing dude bro things ... Sora and Riku have more interactions than Sora and Kairi, while I can somehow see people saying they are like brothers I can't apply the same to Kairi by saying she's like a sister not because SoKai gives me romantic vibes because I don't ship it ... but because her character is lacking (imo) because they didn't bother to give her more depth? (not saying she doesn't have any) Just with her role in the games it's for me personally not enough to ship her with the main male character. I don't even see them crushing on each other because it feels so out of place to me.
idk if Disney would be against it...Disney is weird because they tend to be a mix of progressive values while still staying fairly conservative. That kind of middle ground tends to mean they are a mixed bag. They could stick to the status quo or go bold with making a statement.
In reality, I think Nomura probably is pro-SoKai if one had to make a guess lol
If we wanted to stick to a business perspective, SE would benefit by pandering to everybody. Get the SoKai fans with dropping hints every now and then. Get the SoRiku fans with pretty much anything.
Sorry but whenever people use the "brother" argument, I roll my eyes so hard. It's certainly a fair one, but can't anybody retort that with "Kairi treats Sora like a brother"
Let's look at it like this: She teased Sora for being lazy and sleeping around on the beach. That's fairly familial. In fact, Kairi tends to make a lot of jokes with Sora as the punchline (KH2: "You know he's completely hopeless without us" or Riku in 0.2: "Which is Sora-esque." Kairi: "Well, we still like you.") Family members do that. Kairi dislikes being left behind like if she were the baby sister the boys were trying to protect or something.
i would see a scene in radient garden where we see the trio togehter but that going to happen because riku might be still in the relam of darkness still we could interaction of sora and kairi in radient garden when sora goes there to visit it and maybe check up on how the training doing but as for the best bet for interaction together it would be proablly at the end
i see you point master spockanort but i talking how sora look after riku whenever start to fall in the darkness how sora chears him up or he help riku get back on the light side again
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And that's really the dynamic I like. I laughed when she said all of that. I just… really want them to give Kairi more of this in KH3. Just give her something, you know. It's like… she seems like such a fun person who you'd just like to hang out with but we never see that side of her because of lack of screentime.
It's also why I really want a SRK game.
i can see it work void they just need to have scene in kh3 to make it maybe when sora visit radient garden to check on the trining with lea doing they can make the brother and sister work then
Yeah, more than romantic stuff with anyone Kairi just needs more time to develop as a character. Because yeah, the little glimpses of personality we've seen seem like there could be potential there. Just make her talk about something other than Sora, please. Even that scene with Riku was kinda ruined for me because of the whole comparison to Sora. Kairi and Riku are good friends too, I want to see them interact more, I want to see all three of them together, too. And honestly Sora and Kairi need more time too, just talking and being together, not weird awkward stuff like that KH2 reunion. Just joking, talking, being together. The most we've got was the beginning of KH1, more of that please! I still like SRK because I liked them in KH1 and I want them to get better development.
So yeah, more than hoping for a confirmation for a ship, I think Sora/Kairi shippers should maybe hope for more interaction and development first? I personally don't like these relationships that seem to be common these days (Bleach ending lol) where characters just suddenly get together at the end. With no proper build up. Just... no. Interaction and actually showing how the characters feel about each other and act together is so much more interesting, wheter it's romantic or not, than someone just saying "yeah they're together" and that's that.
So yeah, more than hoping for a confirmation for a ship, I think Sora/Kairi shippers should maybe hope for more interaction and development first? I personally don't like these relationships that seem to be common these days (Bleach ending lol) where characters just suddenly get together at the end. With no proper build up. Just... no. Interaction and actually showing how the characters feel about each other and act together is so much more interesting, wheter it's romantic or not, than someone just saying "yeah they're together" and that's that.
one imagined dance together and two hugs (one and a half) throughout the whole series versus all of ddd + these gifs?
Not quite, I listed a lot of other things other than the dance, which is also the most minor thing in my book.
Physical contact is of the least relevance to me: if we gauged who loves who based on hugs and hands on shoulder, I married so many times with so many people.
I get why such acts are regarded highly in fantasy works, they are one of the few actual interactions so it keep our heads spinning and our shipping fuel going, but truthfully people hugs friends and lovers alike everyday. At least I hope we all do. Hugs are nice *-*
I mean, if we wanna use hugs to confirm RikuMickey, count me in everyday.
The Paopu/red string of fate theme, the constant and never disproven mention that Kairi is number 1 in Sora's heart and was the only thing that actually made him remember everything else, the fact that Sora sees himself and Kairi when looking at other couples like Jack and Sally are the main dish of my argument.
Which doesn't mean I hate these gifs or pretend they don't happen: I just personally see two good friends having fun (I mean, the KH II one isn't "fun", but you get my point). Riku and Sora as friends are actually one of my favourite bro combo, tbh.
PS: I hope my answers aren't coming on as too rude or anything. I swear I am trying to fix that.
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what about zack x aqua
did everyone forget
Zack isn't really picky on this though, lol.
Considering Nomura's track record in writing on such topics I'd say there is a 90 to 99% chance it would disturb the flow of the dynamics.
Plus Aqua is a lesbian, so.
the real otp of bof by slep
Heheh, yea, and Zack also probably swings both ways considering how he sized up Terra and got rather touchy-feely with Ven. ;P
And that doesn't even go into the territory of his original FF incarnation (which is unrelated to the KH version) with Aerith and Cloud.
See, and it's statements like those that tend to make me facepalm as what a "basis to form a romantic relationship from" consists of lies in the eyes of the beholder and how one chooses to interpret things.
This is literally the only issue as to why SoKai gets always placed above all the other options, because it's the typical cliché-ridden standard opposite sex-couple blablablub.
It is, lol.
Well, it is somewhat like Audo said a while ago, the hints placed towards this particular pairing are certainly more blatant and in your face than the others, but that still doesn't change that they're hints, nothing more.
Going by this though and backtracking to these actual credits here, Roxas and Naminé is even more ridiculous and "uncalled" as not only can they practically count at least as half-siblings, there is also close to zero build-up for any "romantic" stuff between them at all since they only meet once or twice in their entire existences and it certainly does involve Naminé working towards Roxas losing his independence and physical existence.
Master Spockanort said:
I find it truly sad that so many people apparently forego/ignore this part just for the stupid shipping and the apparent need to have Sora choose "a special snowflake" over the others.
And other people want their favorite ship or none at all.
SoKai isn't one that stands above all the others in viability yet some shippers acting like it does seems to be one of the reasons why it gets more disdain than other possibilities.
"Red String of Fate"?, "Paopu Fruit"? "trumping" all the others? Like said, it's all a matter of interpretation.
Lemme search for a moment...
Mickey said:
Naminé said:
Ansem the Wise said:
Master Spockanort said:
Considering Sora's build-up throughout the series, I'm really not looking forward to having all the above being diluted/polluted with 08/15 cheap cliché romance just to satisfy some shippers or fulfill a standard story quota which apparently dictates that no story can do without the standard romance crap.
That counts not just for SoKai though in my book, not that there are any misunderstandings, but more or less for all ships in regards to Sora.
Oh, and it really has nothing to do with "hating Kairi" as when looking at Kairi herself as a character, she certainly also deserves better than just being a cheap love interest that exists only to hook up with the male main character.
The fact that the only thing she apparently ever can talk about is Sora (reinforced by her short appearance in KH 0.2) is outright jarring and a waste of the already limited screentime she has.
In my personal view regarding the character, by now I pity Kairi more than anything else.
It's certainly partly that as well as I'm willing to place a bet that if Riku would be a girl it would be the true ship around and on even more "equal footing" with SoKai simply because it would be an opposite sex thing.
Them being both of the same sex almost assuredly has its part in it being dismissed/delegated to "only" friendship more often than not.
Those who then fervently stand up for its also possible validity are then also often accused of being "gay fetishists" and similar stuff.
This notion that friendship is something worth less than romantic involvement is also something that nearly infuriates me, but this problem isn't limited to KH but a problem of especially western entertainment and story telling in general.
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Gee, and now, for someone who's arguably not interested in all the shipping stuff, I actually wrote pretty much, lol.
Been meaning to say this for a while... I don't understand this "Sora loves everyone" point. Like, I don't understand what exactly does it bring to the shipping table.
Yes, Sora does love everyone. He's ̶b̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶u̶r̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶o̶ the standard shonen protag who will see good in every single particle in the amosphere. ...and?
I don't think anyone here is saying "If Sora loves Riku he hates Kairi", "If Sora loves Kairi he hates Riku", "If Sora loves Master Xehanort he hates the Moogle vendor #46".
Sora loves everyone, yes, as many good people do. Then, like 99% of the population, he could very well have a special someone that may make his heart skip a beat without this apparently ruining his KH Jesus status.
I also love almost all my family members, pretty much all my friends, and a bunch of people I look up to. Then, when I will find a single person that I will love more than the others without that depreciating my love for others, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong by "picking a special snowflake".
Like, sorry if we like to see something more in this sea of equal friendship? I don't think love stories are almost omnipresent because devs are lazy to come up with anything else, I believe love is one of the most relatable and pleasant things in the human perception.
I dunno, I'm sure you're not doing anything wrong, but I feel like you're starting to treat the romance like a disgusting thing or close to it.
This in general. Answering my considerations, I don't see how stating he loves everyone or has a good chemistry should deny the other things.
Ansem said Sora is linked to everyone. Naminé said Kairi is the most important person in Sora's heart. It's not like one thing's denying the other, they're both stating true albeit different things.
Edit: I became Keyblade Apprentice. Yay. I also love that it comes after being an Organization member. Eat your surrogate heart out, Saix.
Yes, Sora does love everyone. He's ̶b̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶u̶r̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶o̶ the standard shonen protag who will see good in every single particle in the amosphere. ...and?
I don't think anyone here is saying "If Sora loves Riku he hates Kairi", "If Sora loves Kairi he hates Riku", "If Sora loves Master Xehanort he hates the Moogle vendor #46".
Sora loves everyone, yes, as many good people do. Then, like 99% of the population, he could very well have a special someone that may make his heart skip a beat without this apparently ruining his KH Jesus status.
I also love almost all my family members, pretty much all my friends, and a bunch of people I look up to. Then, when I will find a single person that I will love more than the others without that depreciating my love for others, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong by "picking a special snowflake".
Like, sorry if we like to see something more in this sea of equal friendship? I don't think love stories are almost omnipresent because devs are lazy to come up with anything else, I believe love is one of the most relatable and pleasant things in the human perception.
I dunno, I'm sure you're not doing anything wrong, but I feel like you're starting to treat the romance like a disgusting thing or close to it.
This in general. Answering my considerations, I don't see how stating he loves everyone or has a good chemistry should deny the other things.
Ansem said Sora is linked to everyone. Naminé said Kairi is the most important person in Sora's heart. It's not like one thing's denying the other, they're both stating true albeit different things.
Edit: I became Keyblade Apprentice. Yay. I also love that it comes after being an Organization member. Eat your surrogate heart out, Saix.
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I don't get why whenever people bring up the Sora-Riku ship they defend it by saying that Sora cried when he saw Riku and he didn't cry hugging Kairi. Guys, he knew Kairi was fine and dandy on Destiny Islands. The Organization XIII literally screwed his head up so bad with name-drops and seeds of doubt in Kingdom Hearts II that he literally thought that the Organization must have murdered Riku. I'm not kidding, when he sees him for the first time again he's crying because he literally just confirmed that his friend was even alive, and he didn't even assume that much to begin with. I'll give the fanbase this: yes, he spends a hell of a lot more time with Riku than with Kairi. What do you expect, he was gone for over a year from the Destiny Islands kicking ass, hibernating, and then kicking more ass hopelessly floundering from world to world, and Kairi didn't even have her own power to leave the Destiny Islands without the help of an Axel-ex-machina. Sora and Riku have ways to freely travel among the worlds, and are both helping save them in the process, so of course they're going to spend more time together. Would you like Kairi to be playable in Dream Drop Distance? That wouldn't make any sense, she barely even touched her keyblade compared to Sora or Riku! Of course she's going to be in less scenes! Sure, she could have been in one or two more scenes, but it doesn't stop me from feeling that their connection in Kingdom Hearts II was genuine and, yes, even slightly romantic. I still love those parallel scenes of Sora and Kairi crying and looking at that drawing in the Secret Place, it was the best resolution to that plot point that I could have asked for. I don't know, maybe other people just don't see how they could be romantic together? Whatever, I still stand by it (my most successful thread stemmed on their relationship for corn sake).
I didn't post the gif just because he's crying. Just compare the ways he acts and reacts when he sees them both for the first time since like a year plus:
Kairi and Sora walk up to each other.
Sora: You are different, Kairi. But I'm just glad you're here.
Kairi: You and Riku never came back, so I came looking for you.
Sora (looks away): I'm sorry.
Kairi runs to Sora and hugs him.
Kairi: This is real…
10 SECONDS PASS. Sora just stands there, he's hesitating. I know he might be shocked and whatever, but JEEZ.
It's just so… emotionless. Also why I think Kairi might have a crush on Sora, but he doesn't have one on her.
Still, he's just always more emotional and upbeat when hugging Riku.
Kairi and Sora walk up to each other.
Sora: You are different, Kairi. But I'm just glad you're here.
Kairi: You and Riku never came back, so I came looking for you.
Sora (looks away): I'm sorry.
Kairi runs to Sora and hugs him.
Kairi: This is real…
10 SECONDS PASS. Sora just stands there, he's hesitating. I know he might be shocked and whatever, but JEEZ.
It's just so… emotionless. Also why I think Kairi might have a crush on Sora, but he doesn't have one on her.
Still, he's just always more emotional and upbeat when hugging Riku.
She was kidnapped and missing. I think that probably called for some tears, or at least something more emotional than a casual "oh, well you changed but I'm glad you're okay" Like for all he knew up until he saw Kairi on the balcony in the castle, she could have also been in grave danger. He should have been the one hugging her in relief after everything.
Which is what why people love the moment so much. It's genuine, raw emotion for a loved one. It exhibits something much more powerful than anything Sora's ever had with Kairi. With Kairi, we get these shy, crush-like moments that always seem to (imo) lack any true emotional depth.
But they didn't HAVE to leave Kairi out of the picture when it came to this stuff. They gave her a Keyblade in KH2. She could have stood and fought with them. Instead in KH2, the game intentionally abandons everybody except Sora and Riku so they could have the glory of the final battles.
Short answer: Well, yeah.
Long answer: She didn't need to be playable in KH3D, but she should have been there from the start. She shouldn't have been so docile and let Sora and Riku leave the island without her after a year and who knows how many months of being apart. Kairi could have easily joined them on their journey. Yen Sid intentionally made it so the boys had to relearn everything from scratch and "the proper way" so they could become masters. Kairi had a Keyblade so she could have easily learned. Or had her come along earlier and start training with the Good Fairies.
In the climax of the game when Sora's heart begins to fall to Darkness thanks to Xehanort's trap, it would have been a great time to remind the audience of Kairi's place as "Sora's light". She could have connected to Sora's heart just like in KH2 when she connected to Roxas. Instead, Riku becomes his guide, the voice of reason, and the one who saves Sora.
If they wanted to bother with the narrative themes they set up in previous games, they would have and could have very easily. They chose not to.
It was all very sweet and touching and earned in KH1, but it was hardly earned in KH2 (but KH2 had poor writing in general). And it is hardly relevant in the rest of the series.
That is pretty much it. To so many of us, Sora and Kairi have not proved that they could be a couple. Even worse is the fact that Kairi is hardly an independent character. She is moved by the plot. She is used by the writers when they feel it is time to drop her back into the story. Her dialogue is almost always focused on Sora. Many of us would rather see her develop as a character, one who can stand on her own and apart from Sora. We'd like to see them being friends first before they decide to move into making them a couple.
After all, why are there so many people who support SoRiku? It is because we saw the development between them for the last 7 games. There is a solid foundation to work from.
We haven't gotten that from Sora and Kairi.
Kairi deserves so much more than being just the love interest, anyways.
Making Kairi playable in DDD would have been a great opportunity for her to learn the basics of fighting and all that stuff. We would've also gotten a SRK game to develop all of them and the trio as a whole. Instead, we got a game that developed the duo - Sora and Riku.
Saying "she didn't touch her Keyblade" isn't an excuse at all.
It's just… I feel like the game would have been so much better with Kairi in it at all, regardless if she'd be playable or not. Just one shot at the end… that's less screen time than she got in KH2! And her role in KH2 was miserable as is. It was a missed opportunity.
Saying "she didn't touch her Keyblade" isn't an excuse at all.
It's just… I feel like the game would have been so much better with Kairi in it at all, regardless if she'd be playable or not. Just one shot at the end… that's less screen time than she got in KH2! And her role in KH2 was miserable as is. It was a missed opportunity.
Sorry if it sounded like I was calling you out, Muke! Didn't mean for that to happen! I don't think I read any of the above posts before posting that, I really was just going off my past experiences on this thread when I commented. Sorry for the confusion
I think it doesn't really matter who hugged who, I just feel like he knew she was in better hands than Riku was. At least he had a clue of where she was and if she was alive, Axel kind of reassured him at least that much. With Riku he was... more worried. I'll give you that. I'm starting to see your point
I don't know, I thought their moments were cute. I see where these shippers are coming from sometimes, I really do; I just don't see a romantic connection with Riku either. Maybe that's a problem with this series; nothing ever seems romantic when it's supposed to (and, like it or not, Kairi and Sora were supposed to feel sort of romantic, with the first game introducing the paopu fruit and the drawing from the Secret Place and all)
To be fair, she probably couldn't have done much in the final battles (unless Nomura actually steps up for once and decides to show off the princesses of light kicking ass with light powers or something), but I agree with you that it feels like we haven't seen her really do anything since then. The absence in Dream Drop Distance is sort of weird, I'll admit, but she didn't fit into the story too well either. I almost want to say that Yen Sid didn't even know that Kairi could wield a keyblade due to his words with her making it sound like he had to be informed by Mickey that she could wield her own, but he's pretty much omniscient, so I can't even see how that's possible. Overall, she should have showed up before the end of the game; imagine if Kairi had been the one to save Sora from the organization instead of Lea. That would have been soooo much more satisfying.
I feel like Kairi, while a little more emotion or turmoil knowing they'd be going away again would have been nice, also sort of accepted that these two assholes would be constantly ditching her to do keyblade stuff by this point. Not saying this is good writing (most of the series doesn't have the luxury of that), I'm just saying that this is how it could be interpreted playing Devil's Advocate.
And again, despite the fact that I think it's bullsh*t that Yen Sid couldn't have known about Kairi's keyblade, if that part is actually written the way that I remember and that he had to be told near the end of the game that she could wield, she couldn't have participated in the journey since Yen Sid didn't even know of her powers to begin with. I hate the plot point as much as the next guy, but it's canon.
I don't know, I enjoyed it
agree to disagree!Well, of course she deserves more than just being the love interest. I just think that it'd be nice is all
Again, agree to disagree on this one I guess
I think it doesn't really matter who hugged who, I just feel like he knew she was in better hands than Riku was. At least he had a clue of where she was and if she was alive, Axel kind of reassured him at least that much. With Riku he was... more worried. I'll give you that. I'm starting to see your point
Well, I'm not saying that it should have been a contest of who hugged who, but it should have been much more emotional than it really ended up being. Even with that clue, it wasn't like Axel knew if she was safe after. The emotional display doesn't match the context.
I feel like they both could have saved Sora. Kairi as the shocking person, and Lea's following surprise with the Keyblade scene. It could have all fit.
Which is why everything surrounding Kairi and how they handle her is so frustrating. We see she has a pretty headstrong personality, so why is she not reacting in the moments where that trait of her should be present?
It is really bad canon xD That is what is the problem with things. Yen Sid didn't have to know for Kairi to join along. She could have joined all on her own. To be fair, we haven't the slightest clue how Sora and Riku got to the Mysterious Tower but whatever got them there could have been used by Kairi as well.
Ugh, okay I'm done. Kairi just has so much wasted potential and it is frustrating to think about.
c: yeah, we can agree to disagree
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