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[SPOILER] KH2.8 Special credits (the one on the game selection menu)



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Lonbilly

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As a Goofy/Mickey shipper - I'm so mad

This

f9c6aadee7edbba7a362c9c2b50d769e.jpg


vs This

mickey_riku___passion_by_livburger-d5l70d7.jpg


I think we know what the real OTP is
 

Sephiroth0812

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I disagree, if only because now we have 0.2 which adds a bit more to their friendship. Even in KH2 we didn't see that level of heartfelt longing to find Riku or Kairi from Sora. And in KH3D, Kairi is barely a footnote in a game that prides itself on bonds.

Well, while I have spoiled myself silly on X Back Cover I've avoided most in regards to 0.2 except two things, one of which has nothing to do with the BBS crew and the fact that Ventus isn't even on the list of voice actors Rokudamia posted the link to a few days ago meaning he most likely doesn't have a single line in 0.2 makes me sceptical, yet you apparently know more about 0.2 than I currently do so I can't yet agree nor disagree on this one.
However, if you're saying/implying that 0.2 truly remedies quite some of the errors BBS made in the portrayal of TAV's relationship I've much to look forwards to when the international version of 2.8 hits shelves.

For KH 2 I attribute that mostly to its shoddy writing and pacing since how often did get the primary mission forgotten five minutes into a world in that game?
The "longing" from Sora's side manifested though even if only a few instances like i.e. when he tries to get information about Riku and Kairi out of Ansem's computer.

Full agreement on DDD though, the sheer scope of which Kairi was left out of the whole thing was aggravating to see. I mean, Donald and Goofy attended the whole time to observe so why couldn't she as well?
 

Oracle Spockanort

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Well, while I have spoiled myself silly on X Back Cover I've avoided most in regards to 0.2 except two things, one of which has nothing to do with the BBS crew and the fact that Ventus isn't even on the list of voice actors Rokudamia posted the link to a few days ago meaning he most likely doesn't have a single line in 0.2 makes me sceptical, yet you apparently know more about 0.2 than I currently do so I can't yet agree nor disagree on this one.
However, if you're saying/implying that 0.2 truly remedies quite some of the errors BBS made in the portrayal of TAV's relationship I've much to look forwards to when the international version of 2.8 hits shelves.

xD I doubt I know more than you on 0.2, but from the small amount of spoilers I have run into, I do think it does a better job at showing the depth of their connection as friends more so than any game has done for SRK.

I personally don't think BBS had that many issues with with portraying TAV's friendship. We jump into their story after years of being friends with very little conflict or the need to speak up about things to each other because they are always around each other doing the same things. BBS is meant to be about their conflict with each other after years of harmony.

During the events in BBS, they have so much miscommunication because they believed that the other was changing while they were apart from each other and couldn't come to terms with it. Instead of talking, they resorted to being petty and unable to communicate properly, which would be normal for any friendship that never really had a lot of drama going on it it before then. They wouldn't know how to communicate their feelings properly because they never really had to before.

With SRK, their friendship has a much different tone when we first are introduced to them. It's one of a strained friendship, where jealousy and emotional distance is slowly starting to set in as they find themselves growing older. Then the weird mini love triangle going on...I always felt that the raft trip was initially meant to be some kind of like a last ditch effort to bring them all close together again but was rendered moot with the storm.

We see this strain in Riku's anger over Sora making new friends, over how Sora is completely unable to read Riku's feelings in those moments before he disappears in Traverse Town. You don't go from being best friend to being ready to murder your best friend without something having already been broken there in the first place.

We see it in the way Kairi was ready to take the raft and leave Riku behind with Sora (even if she said she was joking), we see it in the way Riku was going to take Sora with him the night of the storm and just leave Kairi behind (and then Sora even reaches out to him).

And note even when we speak about their friendship, it seems to be in constant pairs. In KH2, we have what Riku and Kairi do together in KH2, what Sora and Riku do for each other, what Sora and Kairi feel about each other. They get like one true trio moment when they reunite, then the post-credits scene with the letter could count as a second one (and even then, that scene was really mainly Sora and Riku). Even the end of KH2 when Sora and Riku arrive home, we see Kairi reach out to Sora.

And this is the difference. TAV had never faced any issues before in their friendship until BBS but were always thinking about each other even when they started to doubt each other. We see them fight for each other (we see the same for SRK but the impact is significantly different), and even though they have plenty of duo moments, they are hardly as far removed from the third person unlike the duo moments for SRK.

In the end, RAX is the most developed trio of this series because we see where their friendship starts, we see the conflict, and we see how they care for each other and mess up constantly with showing it to each other. I don't even like RAX as much as SRK and TAV xD

For KH 2 I attribute that mostly to its shoddy writing and pacing since how often did get the primary mission forgotten five minutes into a world in that game?

If we are going to blame BBS for its poor writing for why they might not be the most developed trio, KH2 doesn't get a pass for it either.

The "longing" from Sora's side manifested though even if only a few instances like i.e. when he tries to get information about Riku and Kairi out of Ansem's computer.

For a few brief moments. He'd be depressed about his friends, then the next scene he'd be doing something extremely silly. I don't doubt the strength of their friendship and Sora's desire to see them (the scene where he begs Saix to free Kairi and part where he cries over Riku definitely show it), but KH2 was bipolar about that for almost the entire game.

Even CoM was able to hold the tone over Sora's feelings for Riku and Namine more consistently than KH2 was for Riku and Kairi.

Full agreement on DDD though, the sheer scope of which Kairi was left out of the whole thing was aggravating to see. I mean, Donald and Goofy attended the whole time to observe so why couldn't she as well?

I really believe the dev team forgot Kairi for awhile...I can't think of any reason why Kairi wouldn't be involved or would have demanded to go with them after reading the letter besides forgetting. Or dramatic effect?
 
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Zettaflare

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I'm actually happy Sora's obsession with finding his friends in KH2 was downplayed compared to CoM. I really didn't want to see him turn into a big Jerkass again and lash out at Donald and Goofy.
 

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I'm actually happy Sora's obsession with finding his friends in KH2 was downplayed compared to CoM. I really didn't want to see him turn into a big Jerkass again and lash out at Donald and Goofy.

The memory-rewriting thing was what made him an ass, I thought. Not so much the obsession part.

When he worried about Riku and Kairi in KH2, he never did it in a manner that insulted his friendship with Donald and Goofy and instead they stood by him and he stood by them when they worried about Mickey. They could have maintained that longing without it coming off petty and obsessive.
 

Hirokey123

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Yeah it was totally the memory rewriting thing. Namine had removed all of Sora's connections to real people and replaced them with fakes, the only ones left untouched were the ones she couldn't remove without things being weird. She even tampered with his memories of Riku, swapping out their story of friendship that one day were joined by Kairi with one where Namine was everything to Sora and Riku and they even fought over who she would draw next. Then to make matters worse she then inserted some kind of memory set into Repliku to make him think that Sora was the reason Namine vanished from the islands.

This then set a seed of doubt within Sora making him think he had forgotten the person most special to him and starting to believe he was the reason Namine left them, winding up in the hands of these villains. It put his heart into turmoil and he grew obsessed with Namine, and all the while in his heart he always had an inkling of the truth. So when Donald and Goofy approached him and basically implied there was something off about his memories and about this girl Namine that's why he lost it.

The Sora at the end of CoM wasn't the true Sora, he was the Sora Namine had remade and molded to be her's...kinda scary to think of what would have happened had Namine's conscience not gotten the better of her.
 

Sephiroth0812

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xD I doubt I know more than you on 0.2, but from the small amount of spoilers I have run into, I do think it does a better job at showing the depth of their connection as friends more so than any game has done for SRK.

I personally don't think BBS had that many issues with with portraying TAV's friendship. We jump into their story after years of being friends with very little conflict or the need to speak up about things to each other because they are always around each other doing the same things. BBS is meant to be about their conflict with each other after years of harmony.

During the events in BBS, they have so much miscommunication because they believed that the other was changing while they were apart from each other and couldn't come to terms with it. Instead of talking, they resorted to being petty and unable to communicate properly, which would be normal for any friendship that never really had a lot of drama going on it it before then. They wouldn't know how to communicate their feelings properly because they never really had to before.

With SRK, their friendship has a much different tone when we first are introduced to them. It's one of a strained friendship, where jealousy and emotional distance is slowly starting to set in as they find themselves growing older. Then the weird mini love triangle going on...I always felt that the raft trip was initially meant to be some kind of like a last ditch effort to bring them all close together again but was rendered moot with the storm.

We see this strain in Riku's anger over Sora making new friends, over how Sora is completely unable to read Riku's feelings in those moments before he disappears in Traverse Town. You don't go from being best friend to being ready to murder your best friend without something having already been broken there in the first place.

We see it in the way Kairi was ready to take the raft and leave Riku behind with Sora (even if she said she was joking), we see it in the way Riku was going to take Sora with him the night of the storm and just leave Kairi behind (and then Sora even reaches out to him).

And note even when we speak about their friendship, it seems to be in constant pairs. In KH2, we have what Riku and Kairi do together in KH2, what Sora and Riku do for each other, what Sora and Kairi feel about each other. They get like one true trio moment when they reunite, then the post-credits scene with the letter could count as a second one (and even then, that scene was really mainly Sora and Riku). Even the end of KH2 when Sora and Riku arrive home, we see Kairi reach out to Sora.

And this is the difference. TAV had never faced any issues before in their friendship until BBS but were always thinking about each other even when they started to doubt each other. We see them fight for each other (we see the same for SRK but the impact is significantly different), and even though they have plenty of duo moments, they are hardly as far removed from the third person unlike the duo moments for SRK.

In the end, RAX is the most developed trio of this series because we see where their friendship starts, we see the conflict, and we see how they care for each other and mess up constantly with showing it to each other. I don't even like RAX as much as SRK and TAV xD

I'll not go deeper into that in case the few spoilers I have seen and the ones you've seen are different ones, lol.
If this is the case though then 0.2 must be really a "goldmine" so to say for the BBS-crew despite its shortness. ^__^

If I recall correctly the direct jumping in is what many people found to be jarring/souring and prevented them from truly connecting with and caring for the BBS-trio. There is much telling but very few actual showing concerning their supposedly so close bonds (they were even advertised sometimes to be the most closely knit trio of original characters) and that's what many found to be unsatisfying.

Maybe some more flashbacks to their four years of intense friendship and/or actual meetings between them before the big falling out at Radiant Garden (where they all three made mistakes) would have conveyed the whole thing better to the wider audience?

"They wouldn't know how to communicate their feelings properly because they never really had to before." => Oh, so do I understand correctly that you're implying they all three have somewhat stunted social skills? (I mean Ventus I can see being naive and inexperienced due to a) having only four years worth of memories and b) being overly sheltered) but Terra and Aqua too?
Interesting...

Hmm, those observations on SRK are also quite interesting to read.
So far I always shrugged off Riku's anger over Sora making other friend as it being just his jealousy and jerk-jock attitude coming full circle and finally out to the open, not to mention that by then Maleficent had already ample time to whisper poisoning things into his ears.
Donald certainly didn't help things by being jerkish as well, but Riku was already totally gung-ho Darkness-influence so I wonder if Donald allowing him to come along would have changed anything.

Yet, when taking all these things together I can see where you come from, the harmonic imagery on the Islands during the Prologue of KH 1 does get quite some cracks from this point of view, cracks that aren't there in the single scene TAV gets together during the prologue (however cringeworthy the dialogue in that scene might be like Aqua's "weirdest brothers"-part).

It's somewhat astounding how different views in this regard can be as I've still in mind the plenty of fandom claims that TAV are the "weakest" trio of the main trios in the series, possibly because the plenty of "duo"-interactions with SRK give the overall impression of them being more relateable than TAV?

Agreed, for all the errors Days has and made, the handling and development of the RAX-trio was certainly the most intense and most openly shown one.
Same here, lol, while as single characters go my top favorites sharing first place are Sora, Naminé and Ventus, with Terra, Riku, Aqua and Roxas sharing 2nd place, in terms of trios I prefer the BBS-crew the most actually.


If we are going to blame BBS for its poor writing for why they might not be the most developed trio, KH2 doesn't get a pass for it either.

For a few brief moments. He'd be depressed about his friends, then the next scene he'd be doing something extremely silly. I don't doubt the strength of their friendship and Sora's desire to see them (the scene where he begs Saix to free Kairi and part where he cries over Riku definitely show it), but KH2 was bipolar about that for almost the entire game.

Even CoM was able to hold the tone over Sora's feelings for Riku and Namine more consistently than KH2 was for Riku and Kairi.

I really believe the dev team forgot Kairi for awhile...I can't think of any reason why Kairi wouldn't be involved or would have demanded to go with them after reading the letter besides forgetting. Or dramatic effect?

Touché. xD

Like I said, KH 2's shoddy writing. BBS may have failed to portray TAVs friendship more easily visible (the show not tell-issue), but at least they didn't include total abrupt mood changes every so often, only with Aqua there was the wavering back and forth between trusting and not trusting Terra without her actually having seen anything personally to justify her concerns, yet that still might have some more credence to it than Sora's abrupt mood swings.
Except of course if these are the often theorized "Sora putting up an upbeat front to not bother his other friends with his own sadness/depression"-instances at work.
I've seen these theories more than once and from different people who claim that Sora deliberately puts up a very cheery and "silly" demeanor sometimes to hide his own pain and sadness.

Definitely true, in terms of actual "bonding" stuff CoM is actually one of the best written ones of the series.

That would be really harsh, damn, but sometimes it really comes over as if out of the ten "central non-Disney characters" (Sora, Riku, Kairi, Lea/Axel, Roxas, Xion, Naminé, Aqua, Terra and Ventus) Kairi is really the one getting the very shortest stick.
Dramatic effect for DDD's "secret ending" is certainly also possible, that they deliberately shafted her completely only to throw a "wham"-shot in the secret ending into the audience. Surprise factor? Perhaps, but it certainly doesn't help Kairi as a character at all.

I'm actually happy Sora's obsession with finding his friends in KH2 was downplayed compared to CoM. I really didn't want to see him turn into a big Jerkass again and lash out at Donald and Goofy.

That was not the actual real Sora though. By that time Naminé's memory manipulation had already shackled his heart so much that he was well on his way to become enslaved by those memories (just as Vexen warned).
The brainwashing was taking its toll by then.

Yeah it was totally the memory rewriting thing. Namine had removed all of Sora's connections to real people and replaced them with fakes, the only ones left untouched were the ones she couldn't remove without things being weird. She even tampered with his memories of Riku, swapping out their story of friendship that one day were joined by Kairi with one where Namine was everything to Sora and Riku and they even fought over who she would draw next. Then to make matters worse she then inserted some kind of memory set into Repliku to make him think that Sora was the reason Namine vanished from the islands.

This then set a seed of doubt within Sora making him think he had forgotten the person most special to him and starting to believe he was the reason Namine left them, winding up in the hands of these villains. It put his heart into turmoil and he grew obsessed with Namine, and all the while in his heart he always had an inkling of the truth. So when Donald and Goofy approached him and basically implied there was something off about his memories and about this girl Namine that's why he lost it.

The Sora at the end of CoM wasn't the true Sora, he was the Sora Namine had remade and molded to be her's...kinda scary to think of what would have happened had Namine's conscience not gotten the better of her.

True to the last word, lol, couldn't have explained it better.

I really love moody angst Sora though!! :(

I certainly don't, we have enough moody and angsty characters already around, Sora doesn't need to become another one.
 

Grono

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I certainly don't, we have enough moody and angsty characters already around, Sora doesn't need to become another one.

I don't know, but hear me out: if you look at the story of chain of memories and where it would take place in Sora's life, especially how so many big things are happening, it just makes sense that he'd lash out like that. We never get that in any of the other games, not even in Dream Drop Distance, where he should have been emotionally disturbed by something at least a couple of times. Sora's just unrealistically happy all of the time, and Chain of Memories helped humanize him for me into a strong teenage boy who is having everyone screwing with him at every corner. It just seemed like we needed Sora scenes like that, and, seeing the stakes present in Kingdom Hearts III, I think we can stand to see Sora angry again for the first time in a couple of years of his life.

Also, imo, the scene where he yells at Donald and Goofy and Jiminy tries to bring him back is easily one of the best scenes in any of the games, including the scene where Repliku bites the dust.

EDIT: Yes, I know that he also gets sad in the games and everything, but his sadness always seems so... cool-headed to me. He never seemed like he was inconvenienced by what made him sad, he should've lost his cool at least once in Kingdom Hearts II (like when he confronts Saix and Saix tells him that Riku had lost against them, in reality he'd probably be pretty mad at Saix for saying that). I don't know, just my opinion :)
 

KingOfHearts

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Kairi has always been there in spirit for Sora, represented by the oath keeper. It was obvious they were canon with the paupu drawings in the first game. It says no matter how far apart they are, their destinies would be intertwined. Selphie added to this by calling it "romantic" to put aside any questions on whether or not destinies being intertwined could be taken in a different way. Kairi's presence in the main party wouldn't make sense. He kept her heart safe and she was the only one that could save him from darkness. Sora promised he would come back to her, lost his memories, and was comatose for a whole year before even getting the chance to see her again. I don't see how anyone found this to be plutonic. Xion exists in her most recognisable form because Sora's most powerful memory is that of Kairi. She's always there for him, on his mind and heart, just not physically. When they see each other in kh2, she makes a gesture with her hair to make sure she's looking attractive for him, then gives a long, loving hug to him, unlike her interaction with Riku. I don't get what's so hard to believe about that. The relationship is built. It's just not the focus of the franchise. Sora has important stuff to do and a woman waiting for him back home, who only recently became more important to the franchise since her debut.
 
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Vasquez

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Kairi's frinedship status is downplayed in comparison to others because she was is powerless (in an active sort of sense). Sora, Riku, Axel, Xion, Terra, Saix(?),Terra, Ven, Roxas, Mickey, Donald, Goofy, Aqua ect.. go on grand adventures/lengths to help friends because they aren't powerless within the narrative while Kairi was always more of a plot device until now.
 

Grono

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Kairi's frinedship status is downplayed in comparison to others because she was is powerless (in an active sort of sense). Sora, Riku, Axel, Xion, Terra, Saix(?),Terra, Ven, Roxas, Mickey, Donald, Goofy, Aqua ect.. go on grand adventures/lengths to help friends because they aren't powerless within the narrative while Kairi was always more of a plot device until now.

Which really is the problem with her role in the series so far. No one is denying that, so hopefully with Kingdom Hearts III she won't be so "powerless" as you described it.
 

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I'll not go deeper into that in case the few spoilers I have seen and the ones you've seen are different ones, lol.
If this is the case though then 0.2 must be really a "goldmine" so to say for the BBS-crew despite its shortness. ^__^

Let's hope so! xD

If I recall correctly the direct jumping in is what many people found to be jarring/souring and prevented them from truly connecting with and caring for the BBS-trio. There is much telling but very few actual showing concerning their supposedly so close bonds (they were even advertised sometimes to be the most closely knit trio of original characters) and that's what many found to be unsatisfying.

Maybe some more flashbacks to their four years of intense friendship and/or actual meetings between them before the big falling out at Radiant Garden (where they all three made mistakes) would have conveyed the whole thing better to the wider audience?

I can understand that, and I do agree they probably needed a lot more scenes to establish their relationships with each other. (I can't wait for Yen Press to release the BBS novels for this exact reason)

Definitely. More flashbacks would have helped to paint a better picture of why these three are having such big issues coming to terms with each other at this point in the game. I guess I just find it easier to understand unspoken context by going backwards in the dialogue to come to a conclusion for why certain characters are behaving in a certain manner?

"They wouldn't know how to communicate their feelings properly because they never really had to before." => Oh, so do I understand correctly that you're implying they all three have somewhat stunted social skills? (I mean Ventus I can see being naive and inexperienced due to a) having only four years worth of memories and b) being overly sheltered) but Terra and Aqua too?
Interesting...

Yes. We don't know where Terra and Aqua came from before they became Eraqus' apprentices, but it seem pretty clear that Land of Departure is all that they've really ever known. In a situation where you are around the same people with the same interests and goals, and you never run into many conflicts that seriously test your friendship, then they definitely would have stunted social skills.

Terra's lack of awareness when in the face of "stranger danger" felt like enough proof of that xD Aqua was probably the most socially capable person in their trio, but she certainly had her issues.

Hmm, those observations on SRK are also quite interesting to read.
So far I always shrugged off Riku's anger over Sora making other friend as it being just his jealousy and jerk-jock attitude coming full circle and finally out to the open, not to mention that by then Maleficent had already ample time to whisper poisoning things into his ears.
Donald certainly didn't help things by being jerkish as well, but Riku was already totally gung-ho Darkness-influence so I wonder if Donald allowing him to come along would have changed anything.

He was certainly jealous of Sora making friends, but he was also jealous because Sora wasn't paying attention to him because of his new friends. Riku wanted to be the hero to his friends, Riku's entire motivation was one big "If I can't have you" moment, really.

It is hard to really guess what would have happened if Riku had joined them. Riku's jealous of Sora would have certainly made it hard for him to try and connect to really stay friendly with Sora, but then his jealously of Donald and Goofy would have also made him ignore them and hover around Sora. Maybe eventually they could have resolved things, or Riku could have eventually snapped and left to do his own thing.

Maleficent had certainly made Riku doubt Sora, but I don't think she could have manipulated him so easily without the seed of doubt already being there before.

Yet, when taking all these things together I can see where you come from, the harmonic imagery on the Islands during the Prologue of KH 1 does get quite some cracks from this point of view, cracks that aren't there in the single scene TAV gets together during the prologue (however cringeworthy the dialogue in that scene might be like Aqua's "weirdest brothers"-part).

It's somewhat astounding how different views in this regard can be as I've still in mind the plenty of fandom claims that TAV are the "weakest" trio of the main trios in the series, possibly because the plenty of "duo"-interactions with SRK give the overall impression of them being more relateable than TAV?

I certainly could see that being the reason. Despite SRK being underdeveloped as a trio, there is a lot going on there for Sora and Riku and Kairi gets pulled in by extension.

Agreed, for all the errors Days has and made, the handling and development of the RAX-trio was certainly the most intense and most openly shown one.
Same here, lol, while as single characters go my top favorites sharing first place are Sora, Naminé and Ventus, with Terra, Riku, Aqua and Roxas sharing 2nd place, in terms of trios I prefer the BBS-crew the most actually.

Now we just have to sit here and hope KH3 can continue to develop all of the trios in a very well-written manner.

Except of course if these are the often theorized "Sora putting up an upbeat front to not bother his other friends with his own sadness/depression"-instances at work.
I've seen these theories more than once and from different people who claim that Sora deliberately puts up a very cheery and "silly" demeanor sometimes to hide his own pain and sadness.

I am actually one of those people, but for me it is the only way to reconcile the odd writing choices of the game. Sora putting up a front would work very well with what we know about him prior to KH2. He wasn't always the happiest person, concerned about the safety of his friends but tried his best to live in the moment. CoM amplified that thanks to Namine's memory manipulation, but then suddenly in KH2 he's really silly and happy with small bouts of depression every now and then.

I can't believe Sora would be fine with losing an entire year without remembering what happened, seeing that the Heartless are still attacking worlds and some new "organization" is out there causing mayhem, and not being sure where Riku is. That is a lot of stuff that should have been weighing on his shoulders constantly.

I suppose it is meant to be a testament to how Sora can continue to smile through the tough times, but I just can't believe he was happy the entire time.

That would be really harsh, damn, but sometimes it really comes over as if out of the ten "central non-Disney characters" (Sora, Riku, Kairi, Lea/Axel, Roxas, Xion, Naminé, Aqua, Terra and Ventus) Kairi is really the one getting the very shortest stick.
Dramatic effect for DDD's "secret ending" is certainly also possible, that they deliberately shafted her completely only to throw a "wham"-shot in the secret ending into the audience. Surprise factor? Perhaps, but it certainly doesn't help Kairi as a character at all.

Xion got more love in KH3D than Kairi for goodness sake xD

I don't hate Kairi and I want to love her like I did when I was younger, but they can't constantly tell us that Kairi is Sora's most important person then have a game that focuses on the bonds Sora has with everybody but she is in two scenes max. When Riku dives into Sora's heart and you see all of his key memories, it would have been a perfect moment to show some with Kairi if they wanted to keep driving that point home. Instead they intentionally focus on Sora's memories of Riku with a few of his adventures splashed in. I know thematically that this game was also focused on Sora and Riku (which I loved to death), but if they really wanted to genuinely sell SRK (or Sora and Kairi's relationship since that was initially what this topic was about), they need to try A LOT harder.

And like you said surprise factor does nothing to build Kairi's character. It just continues making her a convenient plot device. She is as useful as the story needs her to be and if she isn't necessary, she is put to the side.

So they need to either build her up into a genuine character with an actual role and friendship with Sora and Riku in this series or don't bother at all. I don't want to sit through some contrived attempt at making her relevant by continuing to make her role solely Sora's love interest + a plot device when necessary.

When KH3 ends, RAX should not be the strongest trio of the series and my last thought should not be on Sora and Kairi's puppy love.

I certainly don't, we have enough moody and angsty characters already around, Sora doesn't need to become another one.

Not that I'm saying it will happen, but I have a pretty big gut feeling that KH3 is gonna take Sora to some pretty dark places emotionally.

Kairi has always been there in spirit for Sora, represented by the oath keeper.

Sora conveniently forgets he even has that in KH3D lol

It was obvious they were canon with the paupu drawings in the first game.

Canon requires both characters to acknowledge a relationship is actually happening by being in the presence of each other first. All they've had are these informal wall carvings and the Oathkeeper (which, like I said, is conveniently forgotten in KH3D). Essentially, it's not canon until they actually say it.

If a paopu fruit is meant to represent love, then Sora and Riku have got it in spades. They should be considered canon, too.

It says no matter how far apart they are, their destinies would be intertwined.

So are theirs. TAV for that matter since they use the paopu/paopu-imagery as a way to solidify their bond as friends.

Selphie added to this by calling it "romantic" to put aside any questions on whether or not destinies being intertwined could be taken in a different way.

Selphie calls everything romantic.

Kairi's presence in the main party wouldn't make sense.

Why?

He kept her heart safe and she was the only one that could save him from darkness.

Sora promised he would come back to her, lost his memories, and was comatose for a whole year before even getting the chance to see her again. I don't see how anyone found this to be plutonic.

I don't think anybody is arguing they don't see how Sora and Kairi might be a thing, but rather how poorly developed they are and how silly it is that it's taken 10 years to remind us that they were building them up to be a thing and the majority of that development was 15 years ago.

Xion exists in her most recognisable form because Sora's most powerful memory is that of Kairi.

At the time, yes. Because he had just dealt with everything against Ansem SoD at the time Xemnas copied his memories. Not to mention once CoM began, Namine had unlinked Sora's memories of Kairi, so they were flowing into her which was why her form finally took on that of Kairi's during those 28(?) days. Xion really could have taken on any form depending on what memories had ended up inside of her, which is exactly what we see happen as the game continues. Xion would always look like a hooded puppet to those who had no connection to any of the memories inside of her, though.

As Namine started undoing her mess during the year, Xion started to take more memories which is why she ended up looking like Sora. At the end of the day it had nothing to do with who the most important person to Sora was.

She's always there for him, on his mind and heart, just not physically.

Except in like KH3D...or even most of KH2 when he wasn't actually thinking of her at all except when he did.

When they see each other in kh2, she makes a gesture with her hair to make sure she's looking attractive for him, then gives a long, loving hug to him, unlike her interaction with Riku.

Which is depressing since the last time Kairi got to even see Riku was when his body was possessed by Ansem SoD. Why would she not hug him too if they are best friends?

I don't get what's so hard to believe about that. The relationship is built. It's just not the focus of the franchise.

I find it hard to believe because those brief interactions do not make up a relationship. A crush, yes. Puppy love is what this looks like. A relationship has way more layers and depth to it.

Sora has important stuff to do and a woman waiting for him back home, who only recently became more important to the franchise since her debut.

I can't believe I just read this.

who only recently became more important to the franchise since her debut.

That is what is the problem. It took 15 years to make her important, and we still don't know if she really will be.
 

palizinhas

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And then there's me, who is STILL more bothered about the Roxas/Naminé scene in there being stuck in the middle of the Disney ships.

But yeah they really need to work on SRK in KH3 if they wanna make Sora/Kairi work.
 

Pacrolash

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I don't get what's so hard to believe about that. The relationship is built. It's just not the focus of the franchise.
It's not hard to believe but at the moment we have whole game almost about SoRiku with all those hints about how Riku became Sora's dream eater/followed into his dream unconciously/getting jointed keyblade with paopu keychain/all those "wow this reminded me of Sora"/Whole ending with diving into Sora's heart and unlocking it etc etc... Yeah i'm a heavy SoRiku shipper but I'm never hating any other ship and I can take it in canon if it looks real. For now it really looks like the deal with LuNoct in FFXV where the pair is canonised but there is so little interaction between characters, that it looks so confusing at the end. I don't like it when ficwriters handle canon pair writing better than canon writers. And at this point to justify this pair after 15 years - idk, we need to get spinoff game like 3D which we obviously wont in near future.

And I personally don't want kh3 take half of it back to the point where CoM was with pissed at everything alpha leader Sora. He just got his friends back, he doesn't need to worry about them anymore so let him have them in his team and take aome moments to talk to them as a friends and not completely abandon Riku in order to look lovingly at Kairi and vice versa.
Let the sunshine child get peace he always needed goddammit
 

Sephiroth0812

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I don't know, but hear me out: if you look at the story of chain of memories and where it would take place in Sora's life, especially how so many big things are happening, it just makes sense that he'd lash out like that. We never get that in any of the other games, not even in Dream Drop Distance, where he should have been emotionally disturbed by something at least a couple of times. Sora's just unrealistically happy all of the time, and Chain of Memories helped humanize him for me into a strong teenage boy who is having everyone screwing with him at every corner. It just seemed like we needed Sora scenes like that, and, seeing the stakes present in Kingdom Hearts III, I think we can stand to see Sora angry again for the first time in a couple of years of his life.

Also, imo, the scene where he yells at Donald and Goofy and Jiminy tries to bring him back is easily one of the best scenes in any of the games, including the scene where Repliku bites the dust.

EDIT: Yes, I know that he also gets sad in the games and everything, but his sadness always seems so... cool-headed to me. He never seemed like he was inconvenienced by what made him sad, he should've lost his cool at least once in Kingdom Hearts II (like when he confronts Saix and Saix tells him that Riku had lost against them, in reality he'd probably be pretty mad at Saix for saying that). I don't know, just my opinion :)

I don't know which game you played but Sora was emotionally "disturbed" to a pretty harsh degree in DDD, especially in the Grid in the whole mess with Rinzler and the whole trauma conga line in The World that Never Was, starting with his meeting with Roxas where he's anything but happy and cheery and it only gets worse from there, culminating in him chewing out Xemnas out of all people and scaring Xigbar shitless with his resolve.

The "lash out" in Chain of Memories was not only way over the top and too aggressive, it was also as already said not the "true" Sora who was acting like this at all. Brainwashing was already in effect and therefore it is not a reflection of Sora's actual behaviour and personality traits.

Let's hope so! xD

I can understand that, and I do agree they probably needed a lot more scenes to establish their relationships with each other. (I can't wait for Yen Press to release the BBS novels for this exact reason)

Definitely. More flashbacks would have helped to paint a better picture of why these three are having such big issues coming to terms with each other at this point in the game. I guess I just find it easier to understand unspoken context by going backwards in the dialogue to come to a conclusion for why certain characters are behaving in a certain manner?
I'm tempted to actually start with 0.2, lol. Mainly because DDD is still more or less fresh in my mind and I have spoiled myself silly on Back Cover.

This is certainly something KH 1 did leagues better with the Prologue on the Islands and one of several reasons why I would have preferred BBS to be on a big console rather than the limited PSP.
(Oh dear the novels, I love them to bits and if the BBS novels are as good as the KH 1 and CoM ones my appreciation for TAV and possibly even Eraqus will increase vastly. Goldpanners translation of the TWTNW-part of Sora in the DDD-novel also doesn't disappoint in this regard, especially since you get to peek into Sora's thoughts while all this mumbo-jumbo happens and then that last paragraph of Ven's heart literally becoming Sora's light in the deepest Darkness rounding it up...beautiful).

To a certain extent I am also capable of drawing conclusions and logical consequences from unspoken context within the material as well, but it appears that a vast majority of the audience is either not capable of it or doesn't want to to it for whatever reasons. Those need a visually shown event or outright stated dialogue to "get" it and relate to the characters on a certain level, context to interpret isn't enough to most of them as the reactions showed.


Yes. We don't know where Terra and Aqua came from before they became Eraqus' apprentices, but it seem pretty clear that Land of Departure is all that they've really ever known. In a situation where you are around the same people with the same interests and goals, and you never run into many conflicts that seriously test your friendship, then they definitely would have stunted social skills.

Terra's lack of awareness when in the face of "stranger danger" felt like enough proof of that xD Aqua was probably the most socially capable person in their trio, but she certainly had her issues.
I see, so it wasn't just the first time for Ven to see other worlds (I still find his reactions when landing in Dwarf Woodlands hilarious, this child-like awe combined with an excitement like a puppy that's about to receive a treat, *ggg*), which I now realize actually has further credence given to it by Aqua as when she reaches her first world Castle of Dreams her expression and eyes also emit a sort of awe and wonderlike fascination when taking in the scenery, she's just more composed and less "hyper-active" than Ven when doing it.

Another point towards that being overprotective can have its negative sides too, which in this case does not only apply to Terra and Aqua being this towards Ven, but also to Eraqus in regards to all three of them.

To be honest in Terra's case I always gave him plus points for that because he goes by the mindset of not judging a book by its cover so to speak, there's no prejudice on Terra's part when he first meets someone and how he handled his "deal" with Queen Grimhilde in Dwarf Woodlands I found actually pretty impressive as there he realized beforehand that the Queen was up to no good and never intended to go along with her plan.
And yet, on the other hand when re-examing, there is some lack of social skill evident when he fails to properly convey to Snow White that he only intends to protect her from the Unversed, not that he summoned them (which one can get the impression of since all Terra does is yell "Unversed", lol).
Aqua being the most socially capable I actually agree with, it is best shown in Deep Space where she actually works together with the authorities of the ship instead of stirring things up.


He was certainly jealous of Sora making friends, but he was also jealous because Sora wasn't paying attention to him because of his new friends. Riku wanted to be the hero to his friends, Riku's entire motivation was one big "If I can't have you" moment, really.

It is hard to really guess what would have happened if Riku had joined them. Riku's jealous of Sora would have certainly made it hard for him to try and connect to really stay friendly with Sora, but then his jealously of Donald and Goofy would have also made him ignore them and hover around Sora. Maybe eventually they could have resolved things, or Riku could have eventually snapped and left to do his own thing.

Maleficent had certainly made Riku doubt Sora, but I don't think she could have manipulated him so easily without the seed of doubt already being there before.

So Riku basically was a little attention whore there, lolz. Geez, things like these remind me why jealousy is one of the emotions I despise the most...there comes never anything good from it.

If they didn't manage to resolve things (Donald is a bit stingy in KH 1, but I imagine at least Goofy would have tried to reach out to Riku and form at least a sort of acceptable working relationship), perhaps he would have presented an "ultimatum" to Sora somewhere down the line depending on how well their search for Kairi went, in the vein of "either me or those two clowns".

Possible, after all Riku did already dabble into the Darkness by himself and Kairi noticed even before the night of the storm that Riku was somehow "changing".

I certainly could see that being the reason. Despite SRK being underdeveloped as a trio, there is a lot going on there for Sora and Riku and Kairi gets pulled in by extension.



Now we just have to sit here and hope KH3 can continue to develop all of the trios in a very well-written manner.
Yep, and despite only in pairs, SRK had also much more opportunities and screentime to be shown off and make people care. Heck, one just needs to look at the not really low amounts of dedicated Kairi-fans which exist despite her total mishandling by the writing staff.
TAV on the other hand only had BBS itself so far with the already mentioned flaws and now possibly the equivalent of one KH III-world with 0.2 the "KH III demo".

I certainly hope so, the writing of Back Cover, X[chi]/Unchained X and 0.2 does seem to be a step up from the mediocrity that hampered the titles after CoM, but depending on how they manage the whole "rescuing" stuff and when it happens in KH III there might be problems around with again too little screentime like i.e. if Terra remains a puppet/slave to Xehanort right up to the series of final battles or Ventus continues to be the male sleeping beauty of the series for more than 70% of KH III's running time, either because his heart simply isn't ready yet to rejoin his body/Sora doesn't know how to return it without damage to himself or possibly because Ven is still busy roaming dreamy la-la-land (Unchained X) causing "upheaval" (O-tone Nomura) in Daybreak Town with Ephemer and Skuld.
RAX is arguably even worse as two thirds of it, unlike Terra and Ven, do not even have a body anymore they could "return to/regain control of".


I am actually one of those people, but for me it is the only way to reconcile the odd writing choices of the game. Sora putting up a front would work very well with what we know about him prior to KH2. He wasn't always the happiest person, concerned about the safety of his friends but tried his best to live in the moment. CoM amplified that thanks to Namine's memory manipulation, but then suddenly in KH2 he's really silly and happy with small bouts of depression every now and then.

I can't believe Sora would be fine with losing an entire year without remembering what happened, seeing that the Heartless are still attacking worlds and some new "organization" is out there causing mayhem, and not being sure where Riku is. That is a lot of stuff that should have been weighing on his shoulders constantly.

I suppose it is meant to be a testament to how Sora can continue to smile through the tough times, but I just can't believe he was happy the entire time.
This interpretation does make a lot of sense in any case, but just like the "unspoken context" with TAVs friendship it is something that is not really shown or confirmed in any form. Maybe somewhere during KH III there will be an actual reveal where Sora openly admits to someone that he puts up a cheerful/silly front in order to not "bother" his friends with his own depressions and sadness (when in his view they already have so much to deal with concerning their own suffering and pain)?

In terms of psychology, I agree that all that whole memory/amnesia-stuff and missing long stretches of time via coma/sleeping is not really handled very well in the series, except of course if human minds/brains have a generally different make up in the KH-verse.
Kairi took her extended coma from KH 1 also pretty well with no apparent ill side effects and when speaking of it I'm also wondering how they will handle waking Ventus after an 11year-coma (and having basically his heart shattered twice). It would be highly weird if there weren't at least some visible effects on his psyche from it, not to mention that he shouldn't be immediately in peak fighting condition the moment he lifts his skinny butt from that throne.

True, KH 2 was really lackluster on that part.
DDD did do a little better on it I think though, at least during the last third.

Xion got more love in KH3D than Kairi for goodness sake xD

I don't hate Kairi and I want to love her like I did when I was younger, but they can't constantly tell us that Kairi is Sora's most important person then have a game that focuses on the bonds Sora has with everybody but she is in two scenes max. When Riku dives into Sora's heart and you see all of his key memories, it would have been a perfect moment to show some with Kairi if they wanted to keep driving that point home. Instead they intentionally focus on Sora's memories of Riku with a few of his adventures splashed in. I know thematically that this game was also focused on Sora and Riku (which I loved to death), but if they really wanted to genuinely sell SRK (or Sora and Kairi's relationship since that was initially what this topic was about), they need to try A LOT harder.

And like you said surprise factor does nothing to build Kairi's character. It just continues making her a convenient plot device. She is as useful as the story needs her to be and if she isn't necessary, she is put to the side.

So they need to either build her up into a genuine character with an actual role and friendship with Sora and Riku in this series or don't bother at all. I don't want to sit through some contrived attempt at making her relevant by continuing to make her role solely Sora's love interest + a plot device when necessary.

When KH3 ends, RAX should not be the strongest trio of the series and my last thought should not be on Sora and Kairi's puppy love.

Not that I'm saying it will happen, but I have a pretty big gut feeling that KH3 is gonna take Sora to some pretty dark places emotionally.

Out of the "Kairi"-trio, Xion actually got the most attention in DDD, lol. Both Naminé and Kairi are limited to one scene without any dialogue at all.

I agree, it's also somewhat moot to constantly bring up this "most important person"-stuff when Sora a) isn't the one to take favorites and b) the whole thing hasn't really been a point anymore since CoM/KH 2. Focusing on Sora's bonds with other people he loves is actually something they do I like very much, but in the process of doing so they shifted into the other extreme in regards to his bond with Kairi.

Indeed, and I sorely hope that trend won't continue in KH III on all counts, including the boring and contrived attempts of solely making her role about the "obligatory opposite sex-love interest" which KH 2 admittedly had quite a lot of.
Give her an agenda, an actual role that reaches beyond being there for shippers to pair her up with Sora and let her interact with people other than Sora so she can come over as an actual character for a change.

This would be the optimal result, yes.

There's nothing explicitly wrong about that, I just don't want Sora to turn into yet another brooding or angsty grimdark protagonist who's either constantly whining or angry at everything and everyone, I'm honestly sick of those dark moody "emotional-range-of-a-toaster" jerkassy types of main characters which so many in the audience like to mislabel as "mature" characters.

Canon requires both characters to acknowledge a relationship is actually happening by being in the presence of each other first. All they've had are these informal wall carvings and the Oathkeeper (which, like I said, is conveniently forgotten in KH3D). Essentially, it's not canon until they actually say it.

If a paopu fruit is meant to represent love, then Sora and Riku have got it in spades. They should be considered canon, too.

So are theirs. TAV for that matter since they use the paopu/paopu-imagery as a way to solidify their bond as friends.


Selphie calls everything romantic.

Exactly, and there's also a difference between a childhood crush and an actual romantic relationship.

It is one of those things I find on one hand highly amusing but on the other jarring that all hints and implications between Sora and Kairi are automatically taken at face value with the "must be romantic in nature" mindset while the very same things in other cases are overlooked/dismissed just because the two people involved happen to be of the same sex.

Does that mean going by using solely the "romantic" interpretation of the paopu-imagery TAV could actually be considered/interpreted as a polyamorous relationship with both Terra and Ven being bi? ;P

Rofl, I also don't think that Selphie is really an expert on the matter nor does her interpretation have to be the only correct one.


At the time, yes. Because he had just dealt with everything against Ansem SoD at the time Xemnas copied his memories. Not to mention once CoM began, Namine had unlinked Sora's memories of Kairi, so they were flowing into her which was why her form finally took on that of Kairi's during those 28(?) days. Xion really could have taken on any form depending on what memories had ended up inside of her, which is exactly what we see happen as the game continues. Xion would always look like a hooded puppet to those who had no connection to any of the memories inside of her, though.

As Namine started undoing her mess during the year, Xion started to take more memories which is why she ended up looking like Sora. At the end of the day it had nothing to do with who the most important person to Sora was.

Full agreement, Xion's "own" looking like she does is chiefly because the memories of Kairi were the ones most messed up and tinkered with by Naminé.


And then there's me, who is STILL more bothered about the Roxas/Naminé scene in there being stuck in the middle of the Disney ships.

They also had the Will/Elizabeth-scene way disjointed from the others earlier in the compilation. Peter Pan & Wendy or Aerith & Cloud are not really "canon romance couples" either as well.
It really helps if one does just look at the whole collection of scenes as a huge display of different forms of affection and connections in general instead of putting on the shipping goggles and rose-tinted romance-glasses.
 

KingOfHearts

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They're best friends (Sora and Riku). They understand each other better than anyone because they've been through a lot together, but that doesn't make them have homosexual feelings for each other. I have a best friend too. There was a time where I'd been through more with them than my fiance, but that doesn't somehow change my genetic makeup, nor discredit my romantic love for my fiance. I don't understand this in the fan base. Sora/Kairi aren't forced, they've always been on each other's minds/hearts. Kairi showed that she had no interest in Riku multiple times, prioritizing finding Sora always.

In Sora's mind in kh2, Kairi was safe and at home, so it's no wonder he prioritized finding riku, his best friend that last he saw was trapped in the realm of darkness who also lost himself to the series'main villain. Weighing the scales of their situations, Riku needed Sora most. It's like "yeah, I would LOVE to go back home and see Kairi, but there was no telling what happened to Riku and he needs me." That, and his responsibilities as the keyblade's "chosen" one kept him away from powerless Kairi anyway, but that doesn't discredit their feelings for each other.

Someone made mention that it's like Noctis/Luna, but how? Noctis and Luna knew each other for 2 weeks and didn't meet up again until their 20's. Sora/Kairi were together since they were what, 4? Expressed their mutual romantic feelings for each other through the drawings in the secret tunnel at 14 and only 2 years have passed since that happened. Fans feel it's 10 years because of all the story's that have been told, but conically, it's been 2. You don't lose your entire relationship with someone in 2 years if no one is there to replace that person. Meanwhile, Kairi set out to look for him, because she couldn't/didn't want to move forward in life without him. If it were plutonic, why didn't she have the same motivation to find riku? He was missing as well, and he's important to her, but she doesn't feel THAT way about him. Not to mention, they've had some time together on the islands after kh2, where they could probably talk about their feelings for each other, something which might be a flashback in kh3. Kairi's most important thing anytime Sora goes off is "promise to come back to me." And he does.

At the end of kh1, Sora doesn't say, "I'll be back some day." He says: "I'm always with you too. I'll come back to you."

If that's seen as forced to some people, that's their prerogative, but I think seeing anything else is just forcing your will upon a story that's already got its own intact.
 
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Pacrolash

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When they see each other in kh2, she makes a gesture with her hair to make sure she's looking attractive for him, then gives a long, loving hug to him, unlike her interaction with Riku.
If I remember correctly right in the next minute we see Sora on his knees crying over how he finally found Riku.
I can't say that hug after a year of not seeing your best friend is any more romantic than crying over seeing a friend you didn't see almost a year and thought was dead :D
 
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KingOfHearts

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If I remember correctly right in the next minute we see Sora on his knees crying over how he finally found Riku.
I can't say that hug after a year of not seeing your best friend is any more romantic than crying over seeing a friend you didn't see almost a year and thought was dead :D

He didn't know what had happened to Riku. He knew Kairi was safe. Major difference in the emotions here lol.
 
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