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[SPOILER] KH2.8 discussion



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Griewer

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And yeah, it would have been nice if a lot of it wasn't spoiled by the trailers. But, like, welcome to Kingdom Hearts? The trailers revealing too much has always been a thing. Don't know why anyone would expect different at this point. Let it be a lesson now, if you don't want a lot of KH3 spoiled, limit how many trailers, interviews and scans you see.

Trailers, interviews and scans are created in order to make us curious and excited. I'm not sure that blaming the fans for actually watching and reading things which are created FOR them is useful. Maybe the creators should reconsider what dialogues and footages they want to show us. And at any rate the problem is not that the trailers spoiled too much about BC (because honestly they didn't)... the problem is that BC didn't contain much story to begin with. :'D
 

Audo

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Trailers, interviews and scans are created in order to make us curious and excited. I'm not sure that blaming the fans for actually watching and reading things which are created FOR them is useful. Maybe the creators should reconsider what dialogues and footages they want to show us.
I'm not blaming fans, but it's like, if you are a fan, at this point, you should know what to expect
 

Grono

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Trailers, interviews and scans are created in order to make us curious and excited. I'm not sure that blaming the fans for actually watching and reading things which are created FOR them is useful. Maybe the creators should reconsider what dialogues and footages they want to show us. And at any rate the problem is not that the trailers spoiled too much about BC (because honestly they didn't)... the problem is that BC didn't contain much story to begin with. :'D

Well, how about the fans like me that want to see more? That's what the excess of content is there for, right? I don't want Kingdom Hearts III's ending spoiled in the trailers, sure, but I sure as hell want as many scans, interviews, and trailers as possible! So, you can say that the fanbase doesn't want that much in the trailers to begin with since they want to go in surprised, but what about the fans that think they didn't see too much or that they wanted to see more even? The easier solution in that case is to not look at absolutely everything if you don't want to, and for the more spoiler-y fans to have information ready for them if they want it. What's the use of cutting off the balls of everyone in that situation? Sorry, I'm obsessed with spoilers and I know that's not very common here :/
 

Griewer

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I'm not blaming fans, but it's like, if you are a fan, at this point, you should know what to expect

I knew- or at least I thought I knew what to expect... and it was definitely NOT what I got. (then again as it was pointed out earlier by someone else, I misunderstood something because for some reason I thought it'd be about what the players experience in the games with additional scenes added to explain stuff)

But even so BC did poorly as a stand-alone project. Knowing chi and unchained is crucial and even with knowing them things didn't get any simpler, only more complex and confusing altogether. But oh well, we'll have to agree to disagree here. :D

At any rate I don't think that the trailers alone are to be blamed for underwhelming conclusion.

Well, how about the fans like me that want to see more? That's what the excess of content is there for, right? I don't want Kingdom Hearts III's ending spoiled in the trailers, sure, but I sure as hell want as many scans, interviews, and trailers as possible! So, you can say that the fanbase doesn't want that much in the trailers to begin with since they want to go in surprised, but what about the fans that think they didn't see too much or that they wanted to see more even? The easier solution in that case is to not look at absolutely everything if you don't want to, and for the more spoiler-y fans to have information ready for them if they want it. What's the use of cutting off the balls of everyone in that situation? Sorry, I'm obsessed with spoilers and I know that's not very common here :/

There is a point beyond which it is unwise for the creator to share information. Spoiling too much of your product to people (even if they are eager) is not a good marketing idea because the end product's value becomes cheaper - see BC for reference.

Telling them what world will appear in the game for example is within reason; spoiling the Seekers of Darkness on the other hand would be plain stupid because why mask them at all then if you'll just release the information through videos.
The problem most often is not because there are many trailers, but because the dialogues and/or the footage they include. Trailers could show irrelevant yet exciting things and maintain a level of secrecy at the same time. It takes good skills to create a good trailer just like it takes good skills to make a fine game or a whole movie.
 
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Precursor Mar

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The problem with Back Cover is that we were all expecting a movie, like a proper film.

But, as I recall, it was only ever marketed as HD cinematics, and it was always going to be a companion to χ[chi]/Unchained χ, rather than a summary/replacement a la Days and Re:coded. It was going to be incomplete.

That's a load of shit and you know it.

Both the Days and Coded movies were marketed as "HD cinematics". So why is it only Days getting burned in effigy for being disjointed and not this steaming turd?

And what was it's purpose exactly? To get us to know these characters? Because it utterly freaking fails at it.
Angry guy. Smart guy. Moe girl. Loyal girl. That's all I got from this movie. A game of pin the tail on the animu cliché.
 

DarkosOverlord

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I agree with Audo. Characterization of the Foretellers, the main issue BC claimed to cover and it did. Boy, if it did.
Like, I would literally jump from joy should we ever get something like this for, say, Terra and Aqua. Something that builds characters and the relationships between them.
We're always complaining about how some characters in the franchise are bland, how some relationships aren't developed enough, now we get a product which shows us just that and... we're still complaining.

You were expecting more? Though luck. I can arrive to feel for you, but it's the best I can do.
The marketing was awful, I concur, but again it's not BC's fault.
I found BC's writing more than solid and have only small complaints towards the end, but in no way am I feeling betrayed by how some things were, or weren't, said.
This is just what I say everytime a disgrunted soul who spammed a KH III trailer complains the game isn't out yet: you reap the disappointment your hype/expectation sowed.

Saying "Days was presented as a cinematic too" it's kinda flawed reasoning? Days is the movie representation of a finished game.
BC is a part of a still ongoing game which also uploads at a very slow pace. They're really different. (also I'd say the problems with Days being slow and disjointed are within the original plot itself but that may be me)
Using common standards used for finished movies and stories to BC, which is just an extract, is like analyzing a kitten with the paramters of a lion.
Maybe the kitten is the best kitten in the world, but will obviously fail everytime at being a lion. That doesn't mean the kitten is useless or bad or that every kitten should be a lion because lions are better.
I love extracts like these much more than those movies.
 
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Muke

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DarkosOverload said:
You were expecting more? Though luck.
Nope, not me. The trailers still gave away too much, the best scenes even. Not talking about spoilers necessarily, but just really any scenes.
'Course it's not the movie's fault - personally, I didn't even blame it. But it's definitely SE's fault.
And, yeah, all of us should've known better, but can you really blame us?

I'm just saying. The movie had a mild taste and made me feel like I've already seen most of it once the credits started rolling.
 

VoidGear.

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I'm not mad not everyone of the Foretellers was super smart.
I'm mad because all of them are incredibly dumb.
 

DarkosOverlord

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Nope, not me. The trailers still gave away too much, the best scenes even. Not talking about spoilers necessarily, but just really any scenes.
'Course it's not the movie's fault - personally, I didn't even blame it. But it's definitely SE's fault.
And, yeah, all of us should've known better, but can you really blame us?

I'm just saying. The movie had a mild taste and made me feel like I've already seen most of it once the credits started rolling.

Mind, my sentence was more referred to those who are completely negative about how the movie decided to take on the events and wanted something completely different.
Perhaps I should've used "different" instead of "more" to be less misleading.
Wanting to see more, but still in the same style of BC is perfectly fine.
 

Griewer

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I agree with Audo. Characterization of the Foretellers, the main issue BC claimed to cover and it did. Boy, if it did.
Like, I would literally jump from joy should we ever get something like this for, say, Terra and Aqua. Something that builds characters and the relationships between them.
We're always complaining about how some characters in the franchise are bland, how some relationships aren't developed enough, now we get a product which shows us just that and... we're still complaining.

You were expecting more? Though luck. I can arrive to feel for you, but it's the best I can do.
The marketing was awful, I concur, but again it's not BC's fault.
I found BC's writing more than solid and have only small complaints towards the end, but in no way am I feeling betrayed by how some things were, or weren't, said.
This is just what I say everytime a disgrunted soul who spammed a KH III trailer complains the game isn't out yet: you reap the disappointment your hype/expectation sowed.

Saying "Days was presented as a cinematic too" it's kinda flawed reasoning? Days is the movie representation of a finished game.
BC is a part of a still ongoing game which also uploads at a very slow pace. They're really different.
Using common standards used for finished movies and stories to BC, which is just an extract, is like analyzing a kitten with the paramters of a lion.
Maybe the kitten is the best kitten in the world, but will obviously fail everytime at being a lion.


o_O
I'm starting to have that feeling where I've watched an entirely different movie. Honestly in the one I saw the foretellers had no actually developed personalities. They had 1-1 characteristic and everything they did was based all around that 1 thing.
Even Kairi is better fleshed out as a character and that's saying something. <_<
 

Sephiroth0812

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On the issue of Back Cover I do have to agree with both DarkosOverlord and Audo, as overblown expectations like i.e. the Foretellers faces being revealed or an definite answer to the Traitor or the nature of the mysteries given in X[chi] certainly do play a role to an extent.

If one thinks about it, revealing one definite Traitor or too many of the questions raised in X[chi]/Unchained would take out all the mystery and ominuousness on the further developments in Unchained X and most likely also on parts of KH III, not to mention that there cannot be a single Traitor revealed among the five Unions (if there is one, that is) while Unchained is still running as this would automatically make the Traitor's union into a pariah and would most likely cost it most of its members.

On the other hand though I agree on the criticism points that Back Cover certainly was too short overall and ended way too abruptly with a heavily unsatisfying note, Skuld didn't even appear and Ephemer had "just" a glorified cameo (which was awesome and diabetes-inducing nonetheless I'd say), but it certainly cannot be labeled a "total waste of time" or failure as it did really a good job on introducing the Foretellers, their personalities, motivations and character traits as well as the Master of Masters.
Yea, they certainly did several stupid things and eventually caused an apocalyptic war (seriously, while first watching BC I actually mentally wanted Ava to bash Gula over the head for suggesting such an obvious dangerous and stupid course of action), but unlike some other entiries in the series their "stupidity" and facepalm-worthy decisions were actually placed in a reasonable and understandable context, not dictated by plot-induced stupidity or for the sake of yet another "surprise" twist.
It does look like a deliberate setup and maybe it is just like that, but from what the movie does show us is that the Foretellers apparently really love and trust their Master so him setting them up and possibly deliberately coaxing them into causing what they actually want to prevent is something that would not even cross their minds in their wildest dreams.
Even Aced, who is outwardly the most critical of the Master's teachings and suggests that in order to save the world, they have to defy them, only ever suggests that the Master is mistaken in some of his teachings and orders he gave them, never that he actually set them up.

You could even project this somewhat on the present day cast of characters (only as a comparison, not relating to any rebirth/another set of clones-theories), replacing the Master of Masters with Yen Sid and the Foretellers with SRK, TAV and possibly Mickey, Donald and Goofy.

Yen Sid is a wise and respected sorcerer and teacher, so would any of our present day characters entertain the thought he could set them up deliberately to screw everything up?
Same most likely goes for the Foretellers and their Master.
 

Griewer

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On the issue of Back Cover I do have to agree with both DarkosOverlord and Audo, as overblown expectations like i.e. the Foretellers faces being revealed or an definite answer to the Traitor or the nature of the mysteries given in X[chi] certainly do play a role to an extent.

If one thinks about it, revealing one definite Traitor or too many of the questions raised in X[chi]/Unchained would take out all the mystery and ominuousness on the further developments in Unchained X and most likely also on parts of KH III, not to mention that there cannot be a single Traitor revealed among the five Unions (if there is one, that is) while Unchained is still running as this would automatically make the Traitor's union into a pariah and would most likely cost it most of its members.

On the other hand though I agree on the criticism points that Back Cover certainly was too short overall and ended way too abruptly with a heavily unsatisfying note, Skuld didn't even appear and Ephemer had "just" a glorified cameo (which was awesome and diabetes-inducing nonetheless I'd say), but it certainly cannot be labeled a "total waste of time" or failure as it did really a good job on introducing the Foretellers, their personalities, motivations and character traits as well as the Master of Masters.
Yea, they certainly did several stupid things and eventually caused an apocalyptic war (seriously, while first watching BC I actually mentally wanted Ava to bash Gula over the head for suggesting such an obvious dangerous and stupid course of action), but unlike some other entiries in the series their "stupidity" and facepalm-worthy decisions were actually placed in a reasonable and understandable context, not dictated by plot-induced stupidity or for the sake of yet another "surprise" twist.
It does look like a deliberate setup and maybe it is just like that, but from what the movie does show us is that the Foretellers apparently really love and trust their Master so him setting them up and possibly deliberately coaxing them into causing what they actually want to prevent is something that would not even cross their minds in their wildest dreams.
Even Aced, who is outwardly the most critical of the Master's teachings and suggests that in order to save the world, they have to defy them, only ever suggests that the Master is mistaken in some of his teachings and orders he gave them, never that he actually set them up.

You could even project this somewhat on the present day cast of characters (only as a comparison, not relating to any rebirth/another set of clones-theories), replacing the Master of Masters with Yen Sid and the Foretellers with SRK, TAV and possibly Mickey, Donald and Goofy.

Yen Sid is a wise and respected sorcerer and teacher, so would any of our present day characters entertain the thought he could set them up deliberately to screw everything up?
Same most likely goes for the Foretellers and their Master.

But at this point BC did nothing. For those who play the game it did give a peek into what the foretellers are up to, but this was not supposed to be super-size in-game cutscene to UC or chi because honestly put that in the actual game then. Don't include it to a completely different game-pack because it makes no sense. If the plan was to show us what the foretellers were like personality wise, they could've found MUCH better ways to do it.

Showing the faces of the foretellers honestly wouldn't have been a big thing. I'm pretty sure they'll bare some resemblance to the characters we already have (or if they continue the Ventus-Vanitas line they won't give a damn and just copy the faces of Terra, Aqua, Ventus, Riku, Kairi 2 random people). Kingdom Hearts was never good at creating original characters, since they like utilizing the copy-paste procedure and then give it a terrible plot-reason. :'D

Not revealing who the traitor is wouldn't have been a problem... if they didn't market the whole thing based on that. Teasing everyone with revealing who the culprit is and then denying it is one of the biggest stupidity a storyteller could do - because it makes him unreliable as hell. (then again Nomura has never been reliable has he?)
 

Audo

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I feel like people are deliberately being reductive in regards to the Foreteller's characterizations. Like, Aced, what was his one barely defined trait? That he was angry and brutish? Except that is obviously not all there was to him. He had a strong sense of righteousness and justice. He was often understanding (Ava rejecting his alliance). He had an element of jealousy and ambition, but that's not the only reason he was starting to oppose Ira, but that he also legitimately believed Ira was guiding them down the wrong path. He was not the power-hungry guy he was initially portrayed as, nor was he someone individualistic. He believed in the group of them, considering them his comrades, and also believed the most important thing was not power, or that he was the rightful leader, but the importance of keeping light alive and avoiding war, even if it meant going against the Master. When he gets accused by Gula of being the traitor, the thing he is most upset about isn't the accusation, but rather that Gula had known definitively that there was a traitor and had said nothing, causing them even more pain. He felt betrayed, that the camaraderie he believed in was betrayed.

That's a decent amount of characterization for a character that is 1/8th of the ensemble in a fifty minute movie.

Like, it's only an hour long movie that has to introduce and establish like 8 characters. Obviously to some extent there will be broad strokes, but I also feel like a lot of people are intentionally being disingenuous here and overlooking a lot of details in order to claim that the Foretellers were little more than cardboard cutouts.

But, that's just me.
 

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I actually enjoyed most of BC. There was more to Aced and Gula than I was expecting, for sure, and the Master of Masters was entertaining. The others, though? There was nothing really about Ava that KHX/KHUX didn't already have, both Invi and Ira were really bare bones, and Luxu doesn't get to interact with anyone besides the Master, which means we don't really know much about him when so much of the cutscenes are about how the characters act around each other.

The main issue is how disjointed it is. It keeps going back between the present and the past, and then it's suddenly months later and we see the Alliance between Gula and Aced be formed and two scenes later Gula breaks it off because of a conversation he had with Invi that we don't even see.

I wouldn't say it's a waste of time. I watched it three times and I enjoyed all three, but I also don't blame people for being disappointed by the characters, or the plot. And the ending came really out of nowhere, so like. That was also an issue.
 

Griewer

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I feel like people are deliberately being reductive in regards to the Foreteller's characterizations. Like, Aced, what was his one barely defined trait? That he was angry and brutish? Except that is obviously not all there was to him. He had a strong sense of righteousness and justice. He was often understanding (Ava rejecting his alliance). He had an element of jealousy and ambition, but that's not the only reason he was starting to oppose Ira, but that he also legitimately believed Ira was guiding them down the wrong path. He was not the power-hungry guy he was initially portrayed as, nor was he someone individualistic. He believed in the group of them, considering them his comrades, and also believed the most important thing was not power, or that he was the rightful leader, but the importance of keeping light alive and avoiding war, even if it meant going against the Master. When he gets accused by Gula of being the traitor, the thing he is most upset about isn't the accusation, but rather that Gula had known definitively that there was a traitor and had said nothing, causing them even more pain. He felt betrayed, that the camaraderie he believed in was betrayed.

That's a decent amount of characterization for a character that is 1/8th of the ensemble in a fifty minute movie.

Like, it's only an hour long movie that has to introduce and establish like 8 characters. Obviously to some extent there will be broad strokes, but I also feel like a lot of people are intentionally being disingenuous here and overlooking a lot of details in order to claim that the Foretellers were little more than cardboard cutouts.

But, that's just me.

The thing is most of what he does, Aced does not because of himself, but because he was given a task and an explanation by MoM. Because of his influence it'd be difficult to see how Aced would react to all of this by himself, or how ANY of them would react. It is precisely because of MoM that we don't get 5 complete people, but 5 heavily influenced and manipulated people who RARELY voice their very own opinions.

If I wanted to summarize their behavior in BC I'd say "Lost but Loyal" and that would pretty much sum up everyone. They are lost without their master and don't know what to do - but they are loyal so they'll do what they have to.

BTW this characterization fits Terra as well quite perfectly. So whenever anyone will say anything bad about Terra I'll just paste in a modified version of your paragraph. (and he too is under influence so even that part fits :D) :p
 

Grono

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That's a load of shit and you know it.

Both the Days and Coded movies were marketed as "HD cinematics". So why is it only Days getting burned in effigy for being disjointed and not this steaming turd?

And what was it's purpose exactly? To get us to know these characters? Because it utterly freaking fails at it.
Angry guy. Smart guy. Moe girl. Loyal girl. That's all I got from this movie. A game of pin the tail on the animu cliché.

Um... you need a hug bro? Sometimes we all expect something more that we didn't get, but that doesn't mean we can blame the creators for everything we wanted to see. Nomura was very honest this time around, saying the completion of 0.2 would be around 2-4 hours, and saying that Back Cover was a significantly short companion film to the X universe. As much as I'd like more, we can't always blame them for not giving us what we want. It's like when everyone complained about waiting "10 years" for Kingdom Hearts III when the motherfucker wasn't announced until 2013. And a lot of people say it was a load of shit that it wasn't in development before that either, but you're going to have to take Square's word for it on this one. Same thing here.

I liked Back Cover. Aced's character was actually pretty good, Ava was cool as always, I felt like I got to know a lot more about Gula, Invi was smart but boring, and Ira barely did shit. 3/5 ain't too bad. The master of masters was 9/10 IGN, but I have to agree with everyone here that Luxu had almost nothing revealed about his character and that kind of upset me. He just seemed pushed under the rug for the end of the movie, he deserved way more screen time than he got in this movie. The thing that caught me was Aced's arc, I thought that was the best part. Is there weak parts? Certainly! The dandelion's designs suck, chirithy's voice makes me want to drink bleach, 0/10 not enough Ephemer, and, again, it ends feeling like it needs another 40 minutes tacked onto it. So I get the frustration, i just found a lot of good about it as well.
 

Audo

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The thing is most of what he does, Aced does not because of himself, but because he was given a task and an explanation by MoM. Because of his influence it'd be difficult to see how Aced would react to all of this by himself, or how ANY of them would react. It is precisely because of MoM that we don't get 5 complete people, but 5 heavily influenced and manipulated people who RARELY voice their very own opinions.
I don't really agree. I feel like it's heavily implied that the Foretellers would have done what they did even if the Master hadn't guided them to, based on who they are. It's not like the Master gave them roles that were out of character for them. Instead he gave them roles that lined up with who they are. I feel like the Master giving them these things as roles was his way to solidify it, but that they likely would have gone down these paths on their own for the most part. Aced would have always questioned Ira's leadership, it's just now he has the Master's blessing to do so. (And you like, imply that Aced had no thoughts of his own, but he is the one who says they should go against the Master's teachings?).

Like a big part of the whole "May my heart be my guiding key" is basically saying to follow your instincts, to do what your heart tells you is right. The Master gave them roles, but if they were roles that were incongruous with themselves, then he wouldn't have succeeded.
 

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The problem with Back Cover is that we were all expecting a movie, like a proper film.

But, as I recall, it was only ever marketed as HD cinematics, and it was always going to be a companion to χ[chi]/Unchained χ, rather than a summary/replacement a la Days and Re:coded. It was going to be incomplete.
From the first press release for 2.8:

· KINGDOM HEARTS χ [chi] Back Cover (movie)
o A new HD movie that tells the mysterious story of the Foretellers, connecting the earliest parts of the series’ history, showcased in the upcoming mobile title KINGDOM HEARTS Unchained χ[chi].
So no, it wasn't marketed as HD cinematics and yes, we were all expecting a movie because they told us it would be a movie.
 

Precursor Mar

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Um... you need a hug bro? Sometimes we all expect something more that we didn't get, but that doesn't mean we can blame the creators for everything we wanted to see. Nomura was very honest this time around, saying the completion of 0.2 would be around 2-4 hours, and saying that Back Cover was a significantly short companion film to the X universe. As much as I'd like more, we can't always blame them for not giving us what we want. It's like when everyone complained about waiting "10 years" for Kingdom Hearts III when the motherdiddlyer wasn't announced until 2013. And a lot of people say it was a load of shit that it wasn't in development before that either, but you're going to have to take Square's word for it on this one. Same thing here.

It's just a swear. Ease up, Sir Francis.

I didn't expect anything. I watched it because it was included in the game I paid for and got a disjointed mess with cardboard cutouts masquerading as characters. If Nomura can't even resolve main conflicts he brings up in his own story, then there's a place for hacks like him: FanFiction.net.
 

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I think my biggest gripe with Chi Back Cover is that I figured the point of them making it in the first place was to have it act as a substitute for playing Chi/Unchained Chi, at least to some extent. As in "If you are unable/unwilling to play Chi for yourself, here's the lore you need to know in order to understand the revelations that will take place in KH3."

While it serves that purpose to some extent, I don't think it entirely works because without prior knowledge of browser Chi, Back Cover doesn't do much for you. I guess the big issue is Back Cover was marketed more as a "Answers will be revealed!" type thing and instead we got what felt like an underhanded hour-long advertisement for Unchained Chi.

I still think Back Cover is lovely regardless. It was very cool of Square to put something Chi-related on PS4 for us to enjoy.
 
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