• Hello everybody! We have tons of new awards for the new year that can be requested through our Awards System thanks to Antifa Lockhart! Some are limited-time awards so go claim them before they are gone forever...

    CLICK HERE FOR AWARDS

Spin-off Discussion: Is it the fans fault or the creators



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS
Status
Not open for further replies.

MrFranklin95

Active member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
490
Awards
3
Age
29
Location
Los Angeles, California
Website
www.facebook.com
Something has been bothering me lately. Kingdom Hearts 3 is on the horizon, with marketing I assume is officially being underway. But I still see a lot of fans call the games before KH3 "spin-offs". I know, you've all heard it all before but I got thinking why this way of thinking is still amougst the casual fan base. Like, I know they're not into it as much the hardcore or even just regular fans but still, you would think with the release and promotion of the ReMixs that put them all in order, all on one available system, some people would get the idea that these games are ..well.. kind of important. Normally I'd ignore it but I keep seeing people argue with each other about it on every single video I come across and every single new trailer KH3 puts out, someone has to bring up as if it hasn't already been made clear?

But then I about it again, what if it isn't entirely their fault? They just been given misinformation from YouTube videos and the like over the years combined with the odd way the series was handled after KH2? Being on every system doesn't exactly help with keeping the audience on board for this long, especially when all they've wanted this whole time was KH3 and not any of what the series has now become?


This also got me thinking if Square Enix, with Disney now realizing how big of a moneymaker Kingdom Hearts is, would they go this route again? Would Disney allow them too? Will they go straight to KH4 after a few years have passed since games take much longer to make nowadays? Or will the trend of side games before the numbered one continue?

I don't know, what do you guys think?
 
Last edited:

Sora2016

Silver Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
4,550
Awards
2
Location
United States
Square handled it dumbly. It was also partially Nintendo's fault, I think they asked for literally all of the Nintendo handheld games cuz they sold well. But spreading the games out was a horrible decision. They should have legit been side stories tbh if they wanted to make people get like 4 consoles.
But yea they didn't promote them well enough either on top of it all.

That being said its the fan's fault too. Some people just couldnt keep up cuz they didn't have the systems, so that I understand. And honestly some people just didn't care, and that I also understand. Tho, they don't really have a right to complain then, imo. But there are an alarming amount of people who got it in their heard from literally nowhere that KH3 was the only game that will matter. I really don't know how exactly, I guess somewhere in the community that idea must have started. As soon as BBS was revealed to be the game in the secret ending that should have ceased, but....it just didn't? So yea, those people just ignored shit for no reason, and then casual people sorta got the idea from them and it just kept going I suppose?

So in summation: It's everyone's fault! Yay!

My issue with going this route again, other than console spread, is going backward in game design again. I think a KH game on the Switch could work if Nintendo asks for it though...it would be a bit weaker. Maybe have less worlds but still with the same design as KH3? If not, it kinda sounds like what none of us want tbh....

I dunno what other system they would make them on after this tho, Vita is pretty dead. So unless someone tries another handheld soon, it could just stick PS4 and Xbox One (or whatever is next) and Switch would be sorta separate games but higher quality than any of the other Nintendo handheld games.

Disney being involved in the decision brings up one fear I have, that this whole partnership is a one time deal and we go back to minimal Disney involvment again. I really hope that isn't the case, and yea if its not then I could see them not letting them spread stuff out too much? Maybe. Its definitely a Japanese game issue in general, they don't seem to mind console spread...given how they also have like canon light novels and audio dramas they make for their series constantly and don't care if fans can keep up lol. So some of this is culture.
 

DarkosOverlord

Bronze Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
2,808
Awards
4
Age
29
Location
Rome, Italy
It was definitely a big chunk of Square's fault. Forget the relevance of the storyline, there are some things you just shouldn't do.
One of them is trying to release KH on every console available.

Of couse fans should at least know better, but I also can't expect a youtuber who plays dozens of games, or a working adult with lots of daily tasks, basically everyone who isn't a kid/young adult with all the free time in the world to keep up with every little gizmo just to get what KH III will be about.
I mean, even with me they were kinda lucky I needed the 3DS for other games as well.

I hope they don't go this route again, but... they showed that they still are on this route with the entire X thing.
X was a japanese browser game that closed, Unchained it's the same game but worldwide but it's also the sequel even if nothing essentially changes, then there's Back Cover which is a movie part original and part the story of X, also Unchained got rebranded into Union. Nothing changed from Unchained but it did change from X, and the story is new. Or at least it should be.

Like, that's just silly. Try explain that out loud to someone who doesn't know the franchise, and don't be surprised if they're not exactly dying of getting into it.
 

Launchpad

i remember the OLD khinsider
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
4,065
Awards
21
Age
28
Location
xigbar's apartment
They're considered spinoffs because the recipe stinks and the games aren't fun. It's Square's fault. KH1 and 2 are great, but they lean hard on the Disney characters and bossfights; they have lots of scenes with iconic characters, and you get to fight alongside Disney protagonists.

KH isn't weak because it relies on the crossover elements, it's strong because it works so well, and even in it's weaker moments in KH2, it's infinitely more charming than the Digimon in DDD or the horrible lonliness in BBS.

Donald and Goofy are a crucial component that cannot be skipped out on. Their presence regulate the whole thing and keep it from being bland or overly self indulgent.

They ARE spinoffs, because the content is less than it's numbered counterparts in all senses.
 

Sora2016

Silver Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
4,550
Awards
2
Location
United States
They're considered spinoffs because the recipe stinks and the games aren't fun. It's Square's fault. KH1 and 2 are great, but they lean hard on the Disney characters and bossfights; they have lots of scenes with iconic characters, and you get to fight alongside Disney protagonists.

KH isn't weak because it relies on the crossover elements, it's strong because it works so well, and even in it's weaker moments in KH2, it's infinitely more charming than the Digimon in DDD or the horrible lonliness in BBS.

Donald and Goofy are a crucial component that cannot be skipped out on. Their presence regulate the whole thing and keep it from being bland or overly self indulgent.

They ARE spinoffs, because the content is less than it's numbered counterparts in all senses.

I sometimes wonder if BBS had come out for PS2 like when it was very first being made, if the temporary Disney party members would at least have been full members. I guess at that point the story hadn't shaped enough either. It seemed like TAV would maybe intersect more in the original and maybe fight together as well.

Also still mad they made a party system in DDD and didn't have the super obvious world party members... So yea I do agree with this sentiment minus the whole not being fun thing lol. It does lack the Disney charm like I would want them to. That's one of the reasons I desperately want Lilo and Stitch to at least be in a game with SDG. Hunchback deserves better too, as does Fantasia.
 

Nukara

Active member
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
463
Awards
13
Age
26
"Side plays" are needed at least in order to experiment with the gameplay and the plot. Yes, and it's always interesting to play for someone other than SDG. Well in the numbered parts the plot is mostly focused on Sora, in Spin-off it can focus on some other character. As for example in "Days" the storyline was revolving around Roxas, which in general, despite the controversial gameplay in this game, gave originality. Spin-off can be less Disney and more gloomy and vice versa, which can not afford the numbered parts.
 
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
3,395
Awards
21
Location
Saberworld
I wonder what BBS would've been like if it was a PS2 game and the number 0 was added into the title....maybe it wouldn't be considered a spin off...
 

alexis.anagram

pajamaモード
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
2,450
Awards
6
Age
31
Location
somewhere near Marseille
I think it has to do with the fact that people tend to apply, in the first place, a kind of threshold of relevance to serial, long-form storytelling which helps distinguish need-to-know information from extensions or elaborations upon already established material which can heighten one's understanding but doesn't form the crux of any of the story's key movements. KH fans have hashed it out pretty well over the past decade which games constitute a relevant entry without ever coming to a universal resolution on the matter, but Launchpad speaks to a second qualifier which comes under consideration: how well does a game present its material as both relevant and, perhaps more importantly, compelling?

The natural inclination we've all pretty much inherited from our marketing/advertising based society is that if something doesn't look or feel good, it isn't "essential" and we're trained to divert our attention elsewhere. I think there's a logical (if flawed) train of thought derived from this which has impacted the KH series, which is that the higher the apparent or perceived quality of a product, the more important and noteworthy it is. So when a KH title takes a step backwards from a technological standpoint, or is reportedly of diminished narrative/gameplay value, it fails to reach the threshold of perceived relevance: it can't be as important as KH2, because it's on the DS and it looks kind of janky and lacks the cinematic standard set by previous titles (CoM notwithstanding...and even that eventually got a full PS2 remaster to hammer home its status as a bit of mandatory reading). The logical conclusion is that it's some sort of "spin off" or "side story" which doesn't carry the same weight as a full-fledged, capital KH installment. Of course this argument is basically fallacious, but as Launchpad points out, it's something SE should have been able to anticipate from a mile away and which needed to be compensated for by really pushing these titles and clarifying what they are: something which may or may not have been feasible given that they were generally smaller projects with no doubt more restrictive development and marketing budgets behind them, but which nevertheless was the only way to have a chance to overcome the built-in bias of advertisement culture. One could also suppose that if the games were exceedingly good, word of mouth might have boosted the perception of their worth and value, but that didn't happen because they were and are commonly regarded as just passable (and some would argue not even that).

The problem with the HD Remasters is that none of them are standalone: the marketing apparatus surrounding them was never very strong to begin with, but it had the added challenge of clarifying what each package contained and why these Remasters were essential to begin with...which goes right back to the same problem of explaining that these "spin off" titles are not really spin offs at all, even though all of the cultural coding surrounding them indicates that they are to the common consumer. Think about how people typically regard Straight to DVD Disney film sequels: these are more often than not fully canon and could technically be described as essential to experiencing the fullest version of each of their respective stories, but are not seen by anywhere near the numbers who watch the original, because the perception of them is that they are lower quality, ergo they are not as important or worthwhile of a viewing experience, so that even if a full theatrical sequel to The Lion King were to be released we would still observe audience members who not only had never seen but had likely never heard of the in-between titles which precede it regardless of their relevance to its plot. That's the power of perception which SE either failed to account for or didn't care to do so, and the Remasters are basically a Band-Aid prescription which technically serve their purpose but constitute a too-little-too-late solution to a problem which should have been addressed much, much earlier. When it's left up to fans and fan sites like KHI to direct other inquisitive potential-fans how to go about getting into the KH series, there's been a failure somewhere on the corporate trajectory from production to consumer.

How often do you ever hear people ask questions like, "How do I get into Harry Potter? Which book do I start with? Which movie?" Or Star Wars: people might, out of curiosity, talk about what it would be like to watch the films in their linear order, but implicit in that is how everyone pretty much knows that Episde IV is the "first" episode to watch, and how to progress from there. There's a clear communication of structure within these franchises which is almost unmistakable: the first because it basically follows convention and the second because, even though it just dodges convention, it maintains a clear progression within the tradition of trilogy format storytelling. KH, comparatively, decided to build its own little universe where none of the rules matter, and it could be argued from a variety of perspectives that it's a stronger or a weaker series for it inherently, but as a matter of mass consumption it has played right into the kinds of value conclusions people are inclined to draw about the products with which they interact.

Personally I really enjoy the "spin off" trilogy of Days/BBS/Coded, I think that experimental era was so essential to KH finding its footing as a series (for better or for worse) and I don't think we'd be seeing anything like the KH3 we're seeing now if it weren't for that period of franchise building (again...for better or for worse). For those of us who were able to track the progression of the series, I think it was an unforgettable and exciting time, to see the games get stretched in all of these various ways and try to establish all the ways they link together as well as what set them apart from each other. But from a marketing perspective, I feel this is 100% SE dropping the ball, and I don't blame fans who view certain games as "spin offs" anymore then I would try to convince them that Little Mermaid 2 is absolutely essential viewing. If SE/Disney wanted these games to stand with the numbered titles in the minds of the fans and carry the narrative weight of a mainline console game, then they needed to plan for that same level of exposure and follow through on it. FWIW I expect this all might have worked out fine in Japan where portable gaming was (is?) huge, so it's just the rest of the world's gaming industries which are probably perpetuating this misconception.
 

Nazo

Hope Remains
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
4,793
Awards
55
Location
United States
I blame two things in particular.

1) After KH2FM, Square announced BBS, Days, and Coded simultaneously and at the time Nomura referred to them all as "side games". He never referred to them as "spin-offs" but still, they were marketed as off-shoots to widen the lore of the franchise instead of main installments.

2) Portable consoles like the DS and PSP were known for having "spin-off" games released on them. Any time a major IP is released on a portable console, gamers tend to see the game as less important even if it's a main installment. Take "God of War: Chains of Olympus" for example. That was a main installment of the franchise and a prequel to the first game (similar to BBS) and yet, simply for being on the PSP, one immediately thinks "Oh, that's not as important, otherwise it'd be on consoles."
 

Nukara

Active member
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
463
Awards
13
Age
26
I think it has to do with the fact that people tend to apply, in the first place, a kind of threshold of relevance to serial, long-form storytelling which helps distinguish need-to-know information from extensions or elaborations upon already established material which can heighten one's understanding but doesn't form the crux of any of the story's key movements. KH fans have hashed it out pretty well over the past decade which games constitute a relevant entry without ever coming to a universal resolution on the matter, but Launchpad speaks to a second qualifier which comes under consideration: how well does a game present its material as both relevant and, perhaps more importantly, compelling?

The natural inclination we've all pretty much inherited from our marketing/advertising based society is that if something doesn't look or feel good, it isn't "essential" and we're trained to divert our attention elsewhere. I think there's a logical (if flawed) train of thought derived from this which has impacted the KH series, which is that the higher the apparent or perceived quality of a product, the more important and noteworthy it is. So when a KH title takes a step backwards from a technological standpoint, or is reportedly of diminished narrative/gameplay value, it fails to reach the threshold of perceived relevance: it can't be as important as KH2, because it's on the DS and it looks kind of janky and lacks the cinematic standard set by previous titles (CoM notwithstanding...and even that eventually got a full PS2 remaster to hammer home its status as a bit of mandatory reading). The logical conclusion is that it's some sort of "spin off" or "side story" which doesn't carry the same weight as a full-fledged, capital KH installment. Of course this argument is basically fallacious, but as Launchpad points out, it's something SE should have been able to anticipate from a mile away and which needed to be compensated for by really pushing these titles and clarifying what they are: something which may or may not have been feasible given that they were generally smaller projects with no doubt more restrictive development and marketing budgets behind them, but which nevertheless was the only way to have a chance to overcome the built-in bias of advertisement culture. One could also suppose that if the games were exceedingly good, word of mouth might have boosted the perception of their worth and value, but that didn't happen because they were and are commonly regarded as just passable (and some would argue not even that).

The problem with the HD Remasters is that none of them are standalone: the marketing apparatus surrounding them was never very strong to begin with, but it had the added challenge of clarifying what each package contained and why these Remasters were essential to begin with...which goes right back to the same problem of explaining that these "spin off" titles are not really spin offs at all, even though all of the cultural coding surrounding them indicates that they are to the common consumer. Think about how people typically regard Straight to DVD Disney film sequels: these are more often than not fully canon and could technically be described as essential to experiencing the fullest version of each of their respective stories, but are not seen by anywhere near the numbers who watch the original, because the perception of them is that they are lower quality, ergo they are not as important or worthwhile of a viewing experience, so that even if a full theatrical sequel to The Lion King were to be released we would still observe audience members who not only had never seen but had likely never heard of the in-between titles which precede it regardless of their relevance to its plot. That's the power of perception which SE either failed to account for or didn't care to do so, and the Remasters are basically a Band-Aid prescription which technically serve their purpose but constitute a too-little-too-late solution to a problem which should have been addressed much, much earlier. When it's left up to fans and fan sites like KHI to direct other inquisitive potential-fans how to go about getting into the KH series, there's been a failure somewhere on the corporate trajectory from production to consumer.

How often do you ever hear people ask questions like, "How do I get into Harry Potter? Which book do I start with? Which movie?" Or Star Wars: people might, out of curiosity, talk about what it would be like to watch the films in their linear order, but implicit in that is how everyone pretty much knows that Episde IV is the "first" episode to watch, and how to progress from there. There's a clear communication of structure within these franchises which is almost unmistakable: the first because it basically follows convention and the second because, even though it just dodges convention, it maintains a clear progression within the tradition of trilogy format storytelling. KH, comparatively, decided to build its own little universe where none of the rules matter, and it could be argued from a variety of perspectives that it's a stronger or a weaker series for it inherently, but as a matter of mass consumption it has played right into the kinds of value conclusions people are inclined to draw about the products with which they interact.

Personally I really enjoy the "spin off" trilogy of Days/BBS/Coded, I think that experimental era was so essential to KH finding its footing as a series (for better or for worse) and I don't think we'd be seeing anything like the KH3 we're seeing now if it weren't for that period of franchise building (again...for better or for worse). For those of us who were able to track the progression of the series, I think it was an unforgettable and exciting time, to see the games get stretched in all of these various ways and try to establish all the ways they link together as well as what set them apart from each other. But from a marketing perspective, I feel this is 100% SE dropping the ball, and I don't blame fans who view certain games as "spin offs" anymore then I would try to convince them that Little Mermaid 2 is absolutely essential viewing. If SE/Disney wanted these games to stand with the numbered titles in the minds of the fans and carry the narrative weight of a mainline console game, then they needed to plan for that same level of exposure and follow through on it. FWIW I expect this all might have worked out fine in Japan where portable gaming was (is?) huge, so it's just the rest of the world's gaming industries which are probably perpetuating this misconception.
Perhaps you voiced my thoughts.))
 

DarkosOverlord

Bronze Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
2,808
Awards
4
Age
29
Location
Rome, Italy
1) After KH2FM, Square announced BBS, Days, and Coded simultaneously and at the time Nomura referred to them all as "side games". He never referred to them as "spin-offs" but still, they were marketed as off-shoots to widen the lore of the franchise instead of main installments.

No, he did call them spin-offs.
But Nomura is just... Nomura. It's not one from whom you can expect absolute precision or care when it comes to these things. Many have hypotesized he even might've just heard that's how people called them and did the same.

There are no spin-offs in KH as of now since by definition the spin-off is a separate thing from a prequel, a sequel and a midquel that take place in the same narrative storyline and given how every title, albeit short on content, add even just one puzzle piece, they can't be called that.
I can see an argument being made for X or Back Cover, but we'll see how tied are they with KH III (and future titles)
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,531
Awards
37
Location
Germany
No, he did call them spin-offs.
But Nomura is just... Nomura. It's not one from whom you can expect absolute precision or care when it comes to these things. Many have hypotesized he even might've just heard that's how people called them and did the same.

There are no spin-offs in KH as of now since by definition the spin-off is a separate thing from a prequel, a sequel and a midquel that take place in the same narrative storyline and given how every title, albeit short on content, add even just one puzzle piece, they can't be called that.
I can see an argument being made for X or Back Cover, but we'll see how tied are they with KH III (and future titles)

No entirely because in Japan "spin-off" has a different meaning than in the west where it is associated with something that is "not important", "skippable" or "detached from the main narrative".
In Japan, "spin-off" means more along a work being in smaller scope overall but still part of the wider whole with close to no of the western understanding attached, especially the last one.

---

In general though, the topic is missing one factor in the mix that aren't just the developers and the fans themselves, but at least here in the west uninformed and obnoxious gaming sites and magazines which for a decade when covering the other KH games kept their articles and reviews in a tone of "somewhat nice, but not KH III".

By constantly nagging about that single point and repeating the whole KH III, KH III, KH III mantra throughout the whole time period despite official statements that there will be no KH III in the foreseeable future these sites and magazines certainly did influence the stance on parts of the fandom and reinforced preconceived notions.
 

DarkosOverlord

Bronze Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
2,808
Awards
4
Age
29
Location
Rome, Italy
No entirely because in Japan "spin-off" has a different meaning than in the west where it is associated with something that is "not important", "skippable" or "detached from the main narrative".
In Japan, "spin-off" means more along a work being in smaller scope overall but still part of the wider whole with close to no of the western understanding attached, especially the last one.

Well, we're not in Japan, so.
It's still wrong to call them so especially given our interpretation of the word.
Also I guess it comes down to the definition of "smaller scope", since BbS and DDD are kinda even more important than KH1 and KH II at this point for the story, and Nomura dubbed those spin-offs as well.
 

alexis.anagram

pajamaモード
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
2,450
Awards
6
Age
31
Location
somewhere near Marseille
In general though, the topic is missing one factor in the mix that aren't just the developers and the fans themselves, but at least here in the west uninformed and obnoxious gaming sites and magazines which for a decade when covering the other KH games kept their articles and reviews in a tone of "somewhat nice, but not KH III".
I think this is just an honest reflection of reality. The descriptor used in your post is consistent with what the post-KH2 portable titles represent to the average consumer: decent or even good games which, nevertheless, do not achieve the expected standards set by preceding mainline or "numbered" KH games. That's an important distinction to make for the casual player when they're referencing reviews for these games and deciding how to spend their limited time and resources: if the gaming experience they're anticipating is the natural progression of narrative and mechanics along a sequential line from KH2, games like Days and Coded and even BBS will neither meet nor exceed that expectation. Instead, the experience they offer is more experimental and "spin-off" like: completely overhauled game mechanics unique to each individual title, and storylines which feel tangential to the "main plot" for long portions of each game. That's what a review is bound to focus on, particularly in regard to gameplay elements: if you put something as awkward and unrefined as BBS out there for game critics to play and try to pass it off as "just as important as KH3," you're going to be met with skepticism. And I'd argue that SE barely did anything to correct these misconceptions anyhow: pretty much all of the substantial information for these games came from niche fan sites like this one doing all the groundwork and translating Japanese marketing material while the actual international presence for these titles was negligible. They were advertised in a manner consistent with a portable spin-off, not a numbered title.
 
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
3,395
Awards
21
Location
Saberworld
I'll restate what I said earlier. BBS should've been on PS2 and had Zero in the title. Hell, if it was called Kingdom Hearts 3: Birth by Sleep, it would fit alongside Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening and Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater.

But Versus XIII happened and a bunch of internal stuff so.....
 

Alpha Baymax

On a scale of α to ζ.
Joined
Sep 5, 2015
Messages
4,782
Awards
23
Age
28
Location
United Kingdom
358/2 Days and Birth by Sleep were created at a time when Japan's home console market share was absolutely dismal. That's why there were no native Kingdom Hearts HD games for PS3.

Also, back then, Square Enix did not have anywhere as global of a global release mindframe as they do now. So they weren't even considering western audience receptiveness all that much until they started with the HD re-releases.

The point I'm making is that it's Square Enix's fault entirely for the disparity. They can do a far better job of being engaged with their fans. Like, this year's anniversary for the franchise, we got absolutely nothing to celebrate. A franchise should cater to its audience not the other way around.
 

Nazo

Hope Remains
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
4,793
Awards
55
Location
United States
I'll restate what I said earlier. BBS should've been on PS2 and had Zero in the title. Hell, if it was called Kingdom Hearts 3: Birth by Sleep, it would fit alongside Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening and Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater.

But Versus XIII happened and a bunch of internal stuff so.....

I've had this same thought. BBS should've just been KH3, and the titles you just mentioned are perfect examples of how making the third game a prequel has been done before. I think the only reason it wasn't called KH3 was because they knew that putting KH3 on PSP would make a lot of fans upset, so they gave it a subtitle instead.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top