• Hello everybody! We have tons of new awards for the new year that can be requested through our Awards System thanks to Antifa Lockhart! Some are limited-time awards so go claim them before they are gone forever...

    CLICK HERE FOR AWARDS

Soul Eater's status as a Keyblade or not



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS
Status
Not open for further replies.

Veritas7340

New member
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Messages
362
Well, in DDD, when Riku is wondering whether he deserves to be a Keyblade wielder/master, he summons Soul Eater and says that the darkness may still have a hold over him.

Albeit very cool, Soul Eater, as indicated by this scene, is most likely not a Keyblade. Riku is not wondering whether he deserves to have a Keyblade of the Light. He is wondering whether he deserves to be wielder/master of a Keyblade at all. If Soul Eater were a Keyblade, I'm not sure he would be wondering
 

G-SANtos

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
72
Awards
3
Honestly, I don't see how the pink VS gray thing is speculation. Days's plot is literally about the difference between a Keyblade and a non-Keyblade defeating an Emblem Heartless, and in this game anytime an Emblem Heartless is killed by a Keyblade it releases a pink heart, and when killed by a non-Keyblade it releases a gray heart. What could be more straightforward than this? What would be the point of having any color difference at all if not to show it's a difference in what weapon is used?

Regardless of whether KHII played it consistently, Days is what defined the rule, and KHII came before it, so it's at most a retcon.

Really, dude? You're going to argue KH2's lack of consistency, yet the thought doesn't cross that a multiplayer game isn't going to stay consistent with what was established in the game?
For the Dream Sword, maybe. But the Soul Eater, considering that every Gear, except two, is either the Soul Eater or its + versions, it seems a bit unlikely.

The connection between Riku's sword and keyblade seems the same with Lea's chakrams and Keyblade. Both used previous weapons they were comfortable with using as a intermediary for how their keyblades would look.
Though only the Soul Eater has been confirmed. Lea's Keyblade could simply look like his chakram. Aren't Keychains implied to be related to memories? I think I read a Nomura interview where he said Sora lost all his Keychains in Castle Oblivion, but I can't remember which was.

Alternatively (yes, I now this is grasping the straws and totally speculatory, and I'm not using this as evidence, but more as an "what if?" or an hypothesis), what if everyone has an incomplete Keyblade in their heart, that only chosen wielders can complete it? We know Keyblades can't be obtained out of nowhere. We know they are somehow man-made. We know there's as many Keyblades as there are hearts qualified to wield them. We know they can be summoned out of thin air like the Organization's weapons. We know Soul Eater somehow became the Way to the Dawn, and some assume the same happened to Lea's chakrams.

So, maybe the reason the Soul Eater has shown that Keyblade-only ability and the chakram didn't is because it was set in stone that SE would become a full Keyblade, because Riku was a chosen wielder, while the chakram still wasn't in this process. So, maybe all of the Organization's weapons are incomplete Keyblade pieces that they somehow learned to summon.
This hypothesis would explain:
1- The similarities between the Soul Eater and chakram cases and why only SE displayed the pink heart power.
2- Why the Dream Sword is considered a Keyblade, assuming it isn't an oversight.
3- Why the Soul Eater became the Way to the Dawn in the first place.
4- Why the Organization can summon their weapons out of thin air just like wielders can summon their Keyblades, but doesn't explain how they, and Riku, were able to cheat the process in the first place. In Riku's case, I think it has to do with Ansem SoD.
5- Why people were able to create copies of the χ-blade in the first place: if the χ-blade is a counterpart to Kingdom Hearts, then Keyblades are counterparts to hearts. It still leaves the question of how the first wielder(s) accomplished this. Did they touch the χ-blade and received a Ceremony from it?
6- Give us further context to Nomura's line, "[there are] as many [Keyblades] as there are hearts qualified to wield them", because everyone has an incomplete Keyblade, therefore, every qualified heart has one, and can complete them.
7- Why Xehanort wants to use people to forge the χ-blade rather than searching its actual fragments.

Opinions? Again, I'm not using this as evidence, nor claiming it is fact.

Nomura also said that there's only one Keyblade per heart and despite Sora using KK, Riku was still its rightful owner. There's nothing definitive is all I'm saying.
Source? I only remember him saying "[there's] as many Keyblades as there exist people with qualified hearts" in the Director's Secret Report XIII.

Hell riku got that sword from maleficent
Source? KH1 doesn't tell us how Riku got the Soul Eater, and given that we know he met Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, at Destiny Islands and Ansem has a double edged Soul Eater, I find it more likely its origins would have something to do with him.

Your the one spouting speculation, the dream swords first appearance was before sora had a keyblade of his own in kh1. Thus it cant be a keyblade.
It could be an incomplete one. Nomura said Sora was always destined to wield a Keyblade, but having Ventus made him get one (from Riku) earlier.

Drawing information from canonical sources more important that you think it is. Suppose there's someone in the vast expanse of Internet saying that everything that happens in KH is just in Sora's dream. Would you believe it?
This is not even comparable because that claim didn't come from an official material.

That claim is of questionable validity, I'll tell you that, and so is Mobile because it has never been stated as a canonical, official game. It's only that it bears the banner of Kingdom Hearts.
It was released by Square Enix, therefore it's official, even if non-canon. Not official would be something fan-made or a random employee making it without the company's involvement.

Anyway, even if non-canon, it's still official, therefore the info there is only invalid if it explicitly contradicts the canon games. Would you that "Lionheart is a Keyblade that uses Leon's power" is invalid because it came from Mobile.

I can also create a KH game set during Xehanort's youth, but would people really use anything, even just a single thing, from my game as basis of their arguments? They won't, because my game is not an approved game.

The fallacy of your argument is due to the fact that you have been mistaken when it comes to what the Soul Eater is classified under. It has been said that Keyblades are swords, which is true, and the Soul Eater is also a sword. However, the umbrella term here is sword instead of Keyblade, so saying that the Soul Eater is a Keyblade because it's a sword is erroneous. That's what you seem to be implying, considering you kept bringing up the fact that the Oathkeeper and Way to the Dawn are swords, too; it sounds like your claim is that because Keyblades are swords, then the Soul Eater is a Keyblade because it, just like the other two examples, is a sword.
No, the Umbrella is a Keyblade.

And you seem to be missing my point. I used that because Anagram was claiming a Keyblade is not a sword, when not only does the game refer to two Keyblades as swords, but Xigbar calls the Keyblade a "key-shaped sword" or "key-type sword" depending on what translation you prefer. Ergo, Keyblades are explicitly a type of sword.

By the way, I won't be able to post frequently in this thread, because I'll be busy starting tomorrow.
 

Gram

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
15,615
Awards
5
Honestly, I don't see how the pink VS gray thing is speculation. Days's plot is literally about the difference between a Keyblade and a non-Keyblade defeating an Emblem Heartless, and in this game anytime an Emblem Heartless is killed by a Keyblade it releases a pink heart, and when killed by a non-Keyblade it releases a gray heart. What could be more straightforward than this? What would be the point of having any color difference at all if not to show it's a difference in what weapon is used?

Regardless of whether KHII played it consistently, Days is what defined the rule, and KHII came before it, so it's at most a retcon.
All days went over is how keyblades released hearts, nothing was said of color. Its entirely speculation on your part for reasons stated on two pages now.
There's nothing nowhere confirming your color theory.


Lea's Keyblade could simply look like his chakram. Aren't Keychains implied to be related to memorie
Why cant Rikus WTD be based on the soul eater, like nomura siad it was, like leas keyblade and the chakrams? =p



Source? KH1 doesn't tell us how Riku got the Soul Eater, and given that we know he met Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, at Destiny Islands and Ansem has a double edged Soul Eater, I find it more likely its origins would have something to do with him.

That's not a confirmation either bro, just because he met ansem first doesnt confirm he gave him the weapon, plus it makes more sense that Ansem would have a duel-bladed soul eater in kh1's end because he had stole rikus body at that point.

Also Riku pointed out in DDD right before the Ansem battle that Ansem lost the ability to use his keyblade when he became a heartless and if he cant use his own then him having an incomplete one to give is pretty much nill.

He may have been the origin of the soul eater but that doesn't make it some sort of pseudo keyblade.

It was released by Square Enix, therefore it's official, even if non-canon. Not official would be something fan-made or a random employee making it without the company's involvement
Ths is all kinds of incorrect. What is canon is what takes place within the canon, monile exists outside the main games which is the canon of the series.
Just because its a official SE game doesnt make it canon.
If you need proof just look at kh chi, its official and confirmed as not canon.

No, the Umbrella is a Keyblade.

And you seem to be missing my point. I used that because Anagram was claiming a Keyblade is not a sword, when not only does the game refer to two Keyblades as swords, but Xigbar calls the Keyblade a "key-shaped sword" or "key-type sword" depending on what translation you prefer. Ergo, Keyblades are explicitly a type of sword.

By the way, I won't be able to post frequently in this thread, because I'll be busy starting tomorrow.
No the umbrella IS A UMBRELLA. Just like soras dream sword is just a sword.

Just because Xigbar calls it a key-shaped sword doesnt change the fact acting as a sword is only one of the keyblades functions.
A sword is a sword and a keyblade is a keyblade, they are two entirely different weapons.
DDDs glossary, which is more current than the words of a KNOWN troll character, calls the keyblade a weapon not a sword.
Acting as a sword is only one way to use a keyblade. It can also be used as a wand to channel magic and even change into blasters and even a cannon.

To call the keyblade just a sword is incorrect at this point and doesnt do its description justice.
 
Last edited:

Solo

Silver Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2013
Messages
4,606
Awards
15
Age
34
Location
Indonesia
This is not even comparable because that claim didn't come from an official material.


It was released by Square Enix, therefore it's official, even if non-canon. Not official would be something fan-made or a random employee making it without the company's involvement.

Anyway, even if non-canon, it's still official, therefore the info there is only invalid if it explicitly contradicts the canon games. Would you that "Lionheart is a Keyblade that uses Leon's power" is invalid because it came from Mobile.

Fair enough on the notion of the state of being official.

However, conforming with the canon is important because that very same canon is what the story, lore, and concepts of the game were based upon. When you draw information from something that's not confirmed to be canonical, or non-canonical altogether, would you be positively sure that it won't contradict the facts that have been established by the canon?

No, the Umbrella is a Keyblade.

And you seem to be missing my point. I used that because Anagram was claiming a Keyblade is not a sword, when not only does the game refer to two Keyblades as swords, but Xigbar calls the Keyblade a "key-shaped sword" or "key-type sword" depending on what translation you prefer. Ergo, Keyblades are explicitly a type of sword.

I was not speaking of the Umbrella Keyblade. I was speaking of umbrella term. This leads me to believe that you might not be aware of the definition of that phrase, so I'm going to provide you a simple schematic.

TmYWiZv.png


Thus, it can't be said that the Soul Eater is a Keyblade because it's a sword, because being a sword does not necessarily mean that it's a Keyblade. I don't know how any simpler this could be.

And no, Anagram did not say that Keyblades are not swords. He said Keyblades are not just swords because they possess powers regular swords don't. There's a difference.
 
Last edited:

Oracle Spockanort

written in the stars
Staff member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
35,552
Awards
96
Age
32
Location
California
Website
twitter.com
It could be an incomplete one. Nomura said Sora was always destined to wield a Keyblade, but having Ventus made him get one (from Riku) earlier.

Untrue. Nomura confirmed that Sora gained nothing from Ventus except the ability to dual-wield. Sora was never supposed to have a Keyblade. He gained it by being the closest eligible heart in the vicinity, not because Ven was in his heart. Ven's heart was sleeping and could not have influenced anything.

Birth By Sleep Ultimania Plot Mysteries Interview said:
-- This time we saw a "rite of succession"* - is that a required condition for becoming a Keyblade user?

Nomura: That's essentially correct. In terms of the rite itself, the successee just has to make the successor grasp their Keyblade - if this rite is performed by a Keyblade Master, and if they have suitable power, the Keyblade will choose that person as a Keyblade user, and appear before them. Terra, Ventus, all have passed this rite. Sora is the only exception.

Birth by Sleep - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider

Also, the opposite of your statement has been said in KH3D:

"I know the Keyblade didn't choose me, and I don't care. I'm proud to be a small part of something bigger--the people it did choose."

What Nomura HAS said is that Sora is a very ordinary boy who has extraordinary things happen to him, which is what makes him amazing.

EDIT: Here, some facts about Sora obtaining the Keyblade:

Kingdom Hearts Ultimania Scenario Mysteries Interview said:
---Even though Riku was the rightful owner of the Keyblade, then why did Sora obtain the Keyblade in the beginning?
Nomura: Even though I would like to keep that obscure, there is a scene in Destiny islands where Riku is being swallowed by darkness, a light appears, and Sora first obtains the keyblade. With the setting I created, the darkness that surrounds them is Riku’s heart’s darkness. At that moment, Sora enters the darkness, and the light he sees inside is Riku’s heart’s light. Sora, who was squirming in the darkness to save Riku, touched the light and temporarily obtained the Keyblade from Riku.

---Does not the Keyblade itself choose its owner?
Nomura: The Keyblade reacts to the rightful owner’s heart and appears to them. Even though it was definitely Riku who called the Keyblade towards him, the reason why Sora was able to wield it was because he also had the right qualities too.

Kingdom Hearts Ultimania - KH Ultimania - Nomura Interview (part 3)

EDIT 2: Proof of Sora being a regular ol' kid and that he gained nothing from Ventus:

20 Scenario Mysteries Interview said:
-- So it's not "Once Sora's story is finished, another hero's story will begin", the hero is always Sora.
Nomura: Yes. One of the concepts behind the KH series is that the main character Sora isn't special, he's just a normal boy. Yes he does have connections with Ventus' heart, among others, but he hasn't inherited anything from them. He's just a normal boy you could find anywhere. I wanted to make Sora a character that the player could take onto themselves and feel that you don't have to be special. But connect to many people and you will realize your secret potential.

Full Nomura Interview + 20 KH Mysteries Solved! - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider
 
Last edited:

Antifa Lockhart

Moderator
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
3,845
Awards
82
I was curious about the Soul Eater, so I began poking around all over the internet looking for things we might have overlooked. In doing so, I found a nearly identical conversation in the KHwiki talk page for the soul eater from four years ago. It went on, and on and on with no resolution.

Is it not enough to just say that the Soul Eater is an extraordinary sword that acted as Riku's intermediary for his Keyblade and that everything else is vague?
 

Solo

Silver Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2013
Messages
4,606
Awards
15
Age
34
Location
Indonesia
Is it not enough to just say that the Soul Eater is an extraordinary sword that acted as Riku's intermediary for his Keyblade and that everything else is vague?

Oh, we did try stopping it there. However, the "discussion" went on from there, one of the arguments being that it's precisely because the Soul Eater is an intermediary for Riku's Keyblade that it is therefore a Keyblade itself.
 

Oracle Spockanort

written in the stars
Staff member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
35,552
Awards
96
Age
32
Location
California
Website
twitter.com
I think I know what I want to ask you that can help make this entire argument end:

Is the wooden sword a Keyblade? Sora used it as an intermediary to call upon the Keyblade in Hollow Bastion. The answer is no, it isn't. It's a wooden sword.

Is a struggle bat or a stick a Keyblade? Roxas used both to call on the Keyblade (though, mind you, all of that was in a computer so rofl anything goes in a data world but my point still stands)

The Soul Eater is the same. It is just a sword made of Darkness that Riku used as an intermediary to call upon Way to the Dawn. To say it is a Keyblade undermines and weakens the entire struggle Sora & Riku had in Kingdom Hearts and the inner conflict Riku had in KH3D.
 

Solo

Silver Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2013
Messages
4,606
Awards
15
Age
34
Location
Indonesia
Nailed it right on the head, Spock. I once also gave an example of a similar, supposedly more obvious analogy with how Lea's chakrams were an intermediary for his Keyblade and were not Keyblades in in themselves.

Is it right if I say that this discussion now concludes?
 
Last edited:

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,531
Awards
37
Location
Germany
What Spock said is absolutely correct, and since I haven't read it yet here I can also quickly insert an explanation for the grey hearts/pink hearts issue.
Thís has no real actual canon in-story reason but is solely for game purposes. The color of the released hearts determines solely how many Heart points you get from that Heartless. If you build up a big enough chain Heartless start to release golden Hearts. In Days the game it is solely a gameplay element and nothing more.

Any weapon releases a Heart from an Emblem Heartless when it destroys one, the difference comes afterwards, as in when a Keyblade performed the destruction the Heart is purified and freed, otherwise it just reforms as a new Heartless sometime later at a different location.
 

blksabbath74

New member
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
629
Age
49
Location
Birmingham AL
Fair enough on the notion of the state of being official.

However, conforming with the canon is important because that very same canon is what the story, lore, and concepts of the game were based upon. When you draw information from something that's not confirmed to be canonical, or non-canonical altogether, would you be positively sure that it won't contradict the facts that have been established by the canon?



I was not speaking of the Umbrella Keyblade. I was speaking of umbrella term. This leads me to believe that you might not be aware of the definition of that phrase, so I'm going to provide you a simple schematic.

TmYWiZv.png


Thus, it can't be said that the Soul Eater is a Keyblade because it's a sword, because being a sword does not necessarily mean that it's a Keyblade. I don't know how any simpler this could be.

And no, Anagram did not say that Keyblades are not swords. He said Keyblades are not just swords because they possess powers regular swords don't. There's a difference.

You guys are ALL wrong.

There is a video on Youtube where a blacksmith makes one. It is like a thick steel pipe with bladed spikes on the end, and functioned more like an axe or a flanged mace (with only one flange) than a sword...

Just saying...:tongue:
 

Solo

Silver Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2013
Messages
4,606
Awards
15
Age
34
Location
Indonesia
I've seen that video and yes, that's one wicked weapon. However, I fail to see how it is relevant to this discussion; if anything, it just goes with Anagram's point that Keyblades are not just swords since they can be used like an axe, mace, or anything you can bludgeon things with.
 

blksabbath74

New member
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
629
Age
49
Location
Birmingham AL
I've seen that video and yes, that's one wicked weapon. However, I fail to see how it is relevant to this discussion; if anything, it just goes with Anagram's point that Keyblades are not just swords since they can be used like an axe, mace, or anything you can bludgeon things with.

If anything, I would think that a keyblade is a unique form of weapon. It would either inflict crushing damage or hacking damage, depending on the size, shape and sharpness of the attacking surface.

When attacking, it essentially functions more like an axe or warhammer, but it's shape and shaft, as well as the larger handle-to-blade ratio make it ideal for blocking like a sword.

In addition, the unique handle, while having some functionality issues, makes it very balanced and can also be used to block.

I built one out of pvc pipe and foam (and duct tape) for my daughter for Christmas, so I've seen and felt it in action.

And no, this has no real bearing on the Soul Eater debate...
 

Ventus_

Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2013
Messages
192
Awards
7
Location
California
I have little knowledge on this subject but out of curiosity I did some research and it appears to not be a keyblade but rather an incomplete form of a keyblade: Way to Dawn.

"The Soul Eater (ソウルイーター Souru Ītā?) is a weapon used by Riku, introduced in Kingdom Hearts. It is a sword that grows more powerful when used with darkness, and is the developing form of Way to the Dawn."

Soul Eater - Kingdom Hearts Wiki, the Kingdom Hearts encyclopedia
Way to the Dawn - Kingdom Hearts Wiki, the Kingdom Hearts encyclopedia

"Its form is based upon the Soul Eater, which it uses as an intermediary, and its name and design reflect Riku's nature as a being halfway between both light and darkness."

I don't know how accurate this information is but it's very interesting and the appearance of both blades are identical enough for it to be plausible.
 

Gram

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
15,615
Awards
5
None of those lines are stated in the game or by Nomura, thus why the OP of this thread has yet to back up those very same links.

This is all Nomura ever said on the matter of the soul eater:

KINGDOM HEARTS II Ultimania said:
---We found out that Riku's Keyblade's name is "Way to the Dawn" when examining his item slots after he joined your party. Is that Keyblade a transfigured version of Soul Eater?
Nomura: I designed it with that image. Since Riku has always been using Soul Eater, he still calls it that even after it changed form. Keyblades aren't something that you can obtain suddenly out of nowhere so in Riku's case, his Soul Eater was used as an intermediary for that Keyblade.

Nothing is said in game about it, this particular line here is the only tidbit about the matter.

An intermediary is something acts as a go between a 1st and 3rd party, not something that changes itself.
In this case the soul eater acted that role giving the Way to Dawn. the 3rd party, a base to work with and form so that Riku, the first part, could use it.
If the Soul Eater had literally changed I dont think Riku would've still had it to show off in DDD.

Plus just because it was used in such a way by the WTD doesn't mean the soul eater is some incomplete keyblade.

Also we have a very good point which Master Spockanort made earlier:

I think I know what I want to ask you that can help make this entire argument end:

Is the wooden sword a Keyblade? Sora used it as an intermediary to call upon the Keyblade in Hollow Bastion. The answer is no, it isn't. It's a wooden sword.

Is a struggle bat or a stick a Keyblade? Roxas used both to call on the Keyblade (though, mind you, all of that was in a computer so rofl anything goes in a data world but my point still stands)

The Soul Eater is the same. It is just a sword made of Darkness that Riku used as an intermediary to call upon Way to the Dawn. To say it is a Keyblade undermines and weakens the entire struggle Sora & Riku had in Kingdom Hearts and the inner conflict Riku had in KH3D.
 
Last edited:

Solo

Silver Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2013
Messages
4,606
Awards
15
Age
34
Location
Indonesia
"Its form is based upon the Soul Eater, which it uses as an intermediary, and its name and design reflect Riku's nature as a being halfway between both light and darkness."

This bit is true, because Nomura himself had stated it himself. He said this, quoted verbatim:

Nomura in KH2 Ultimania said:
---We found out that Riku's Keyblade's name is "Way to the Dawn" when examining his item slots after he joined your party. Is that Keyblade a transfigured version of Soul Eater?
Nomura: I designed it with that image. Since Riku has always been using Soul Eater, he still calls it that even after it changed form. Keyblades aren't something that you can obtain suddenly out of nowhere so in Riku's case, his Soul Eater was used as an intermediary for that Keyblade.

---If we directly translate "Way to the Dawn", "dawn" means "in-between night and daytime", so does that mean that Keyblade is from the In-between World? In other words, this means the Keyblades that Sora, King Mickey and Riku wield represent the Worlds of Light, Dark and In-between?
Nomura: Well, if I have to say where they belong, it's just as you said. But the name of "Way to Dawn" doesn't have to mean that. This name came from the scene at the end of Riku's story in KH:COM that suggested which path he would walk on, where he said "The road to dawn."

Direct link: Kingdom Hearts II Scenario Mysteries - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider

However, to say that the Soul Eater is an incomplete or developing form of a Keyblade might not be accurate. That is seemingly the case because it acted as the Way to the Dawn's intermediary, but just because that is so, it doesn't mean that it's even a partially formed Keyblade (let alone a Keyblade, but I believe you're well aware of that).

Spock has elaborated it beautifully on the previous page, but I'm going reword it here while still retaining the essence. Now suppose, arguendo, that the Soul Eater is an incomplete or developing form of a Keyblade because the Way to the Dawn seemingly "came to be" from it. By that logic, if the Way to the Dawn were based on the wooden sword instead of the Soul Eater, then apparently it could be said that the wooden sword is an incomplete Keyblade or one that is in development (i.e. on its way into becoming a full-fledged Keyblade), but we know that this is not true. The wooden sword is just a toy wooden sword, a bokken, a pedang kayu, or whatever names in other languages it goes by, and that's all there is to it. Therefore, the same thing also applies to the case of Soul Eater.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top