Do you think Sora in KH2 would have killed Namine too if she appeared in a dark cloak? ^__^
I mean she is a Nobody and Nobodys are evil aren't they?
I mean she is a Nobody and Nobodys are evil aren't they?
Sora is Evil!!!
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Elimate Xenmas/Xehanort/wanna be Ansem and they might not be evil. If Sora offered them some help to become whole again they possibly wouldn't do anything evil. You could go on and on about the possibilities of whether they(not just the original 6) would be evil or good so there really is no right or wrong answer to that.
Yes....but since she wore white Sora and saved Kairi he believed she was all good.
I don't know, I think what would happen is Sora might get Demyx and Axel on his side and the rest would try to kill.
The other thing, I think you guys baby the Org. members too much. Some of them like the apprentices can actually be considered terrorists because they turned against their leader and government( an established one), formed their own terrorist regime, and are trying to destroy it.
The other thing, I think you guys baby the Org. members too much. Some of them like the apprentices can actually be considered terrorists because they turned against their leader and government( an established one), formed their own terrorist regime, and are trying to destroy it.
Terrorist? Seriously..terrorist. XD
I'm sorry but that post made my day.
Anyways call them what you will Sora still didn't try anything besides hack and slash and the Org didn't try to go against Xenmas. (except for you know who)
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Thanks! ^_^
Actually... if the novels are to be believed, Axel's whole "kidnap Kairi" thing was at least partially done because Namine wanted to meet her again.
Translation from here: (italics are Axel's thoughts)
But, really, the only person who mentioned that Axel wants to turn Sora into a Heartless is Saix, and Saix has every reason to lie. I mean, if Sora went out and killed Axel for him, it'd just be plain convenient for Saix, so he's not really the most trustworthy source.
He might not be forced to kill, but he's definitely forced to fight. It's not like any of the Organization members are just standing there and Sora attacks them - they're all either doing something bad (Xaldin), or in a position where it could be assumed that they're doing something bad (Demyx), or just plain trying to kill Sora to get him out of their way (Xigbar, Luxord, Saix, Xemnas), and they all have weapons that they're willing to use on him.
And once he's in a fight with them, it might not be possible to let them live. Particularly if, as it seems, the Nobodies fade out of weariness rather than physical injury - at least, Sora's not really in a position to have dealt a final blow in all but one case (Luxord) - he might not even be able to tell how much is too much even if he wanted to.
As I said in my other post - Sora doesn't think he needs to question whether the Organization is evil, because the Organization does a perfectly good job of making him think they are, Demyx aside. Sora has only one piece of evidence that they're not all evil - the way Axel acted in the few minutes before he died. And I'd argue that he did consider that - note the part in my previous post where I showed that Sora seemed pretty sad about the fact that he had to kill the Organization members (who were, at that point, just out-and-out trying to kill him to get him out of their way).
But, even then...
Would you question whether Xigbar is evil, when he turns a dragon into a Heartless, then the next time you see him, he just appears and tells you you're a wimp and he's going to kill you because you're apparently a traitor to an Organization you never joined?
Would you question whether Luxord is evil, when he messes around with people you care about, then the next time you see him, he announces that he'd "rather skip the formalities" and forces you into a fight?
Would you question whether Saix is evil, after all his emotional manipulation - done solely for his own sadistic amusement?
Would you question whether Xemnas is evil, when he even admits himself that he doesn't care what misery befalls the worlds?
Being informed isn't a justification, no. But Sora does know enough that he can reasonably expect that his impression of the Nobodies is correct.
I'd say no one should be the judge of who lives and who dies. Though that's kind of besides the point here.
I think part of this problem is that Sora really doesn't have enough time to be thinking about things, since he's constantly on the move - and constantly fighting. So if he's using his little downtime to worry more about Riku and Kairi than to wonder about whether Yen Sid was right about Nobodies - particularly since the Nobodies, apart from Axel, haven't done anything that would cause Sora to doubt Yen Sid.
Yep. Terrorist. You can say whatever you want but the apprentices formed a terrorist regime to take down the government that their leader Ansem established.
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"Terrorist" is a very specific word that refers to groups of people who use terror and intimidation to get their way.
This does not fit the apprentices at all, because their methods seem to be more "secret conspiracy followed by quick overthrow" than "kill people until Ansem's forced to do what we want."
They might be causing a good deal of fear by disappearing people for their darkness tests (but then again, we don't know the specifics; they might have recruited people legitimately, then refused to let them back out or something), but they're not using it to get what they want. They don't even want people to know it's them who's doing it, most likely.
So, no, they're not terrorists.
Ah good to see you back Ikkin. Now let's begin...
Assumed that they are doing something bad? I just think your wording is off on that one since assuming someone is doing something bad is the same as assuming someone is doing something good i.e. Sora.
Anyways Sora isn't even confronted with the other Org members until late in the game(besides the one instance in HB). What the hell we they doing in that time? Plotting? Yeah but certainly not attacking him. Ooh they have weapons, well of course they have weapons! You think an Organization ruled by a madman isn't gonna have weapons?! Org: Either they attack this boy or get attacked by Xenmas. Sora: Either he must eliminates these people or others might get hurt. No where in there on either side is a thought of maybe I can do this instead of that, both are just see things in one way and that is that.
[qoute]And once he's in a fight with them, it might not be possible to let them live. Particularly if, as it seems, the Nobodies fade out of weariness rather than physical injury - at least, Sora's not really in a position to have dealt a final blow in all but one case (Luxord) - he might not even be able to tell how much is too much even if he wanted to.[/quote]Sora never had the thought of letting them live cross his mind and like you said once he is in the fight he can't really stop or more or less doesn't want to stop. I have never seen Sora stop attacking while in a fight for moral reasons, even when Riku(in black cloak) tries to aid him in Land of dragons he attacks and doesn't look at what Riku was really doing(he was killing the heartless).
I have not said that the Org members aren't evil that is not the question here my point is that with the motives they had shouldn't Sora have at least considered thinking of something else besides destruction? Yes they do bad things to get what they longed for and in way so did someone like Riku. Riku joined the dark side to try and help Kairi and was manipulated just like the Org for something he wanted even if it meant betraying Sora or even hurting others, should Riku have been killed cause he was bad? No because he is your friend who is being controlled, right? Wrong because if you admit that someone can turn from good to bad then why not the opposite? Sora never sees or even thinks of that and that is my problem, albeit that Riku's cause wasn't as extreme but it still a very similar case. Not that he is evil, not that he is good but that he is a prime example of "attack now and ask questions later"
Was Sora really wondering whether Riku and Kairi were alright when he was doing Struggle? Probably not. Was he thinking about them when he was in the 100 acre woods? Maybe maybe not. Is he thinking about them in between the times of going to a new world/leaving one? Possibly. The list goes on and on (which doesn't really prove anything mind you cause he can make time) but the fact is Sora has time to think about other things and question stuff but he just chooses not to.
Sora not doubting Yensid is understandable for a follower but not for a hero who has to deal with these "conflicting" issues that can cause one to think about what it means to exist and whatnot. With that said I still hold my position of neutrality.
I'm tired so there might bit a couple things in there that don't make sense grammar wise.
Ikkin said:
Assumed that they are doing something bad? I just think your wording is off on that one since assuming someone is doing something bad is the same as assuming someone is doing something good i.e. Sora.
Anyways Sora isn't even confronted with the other Org members until late in the game(besides the one instance in HB). What the hell we they doing in that time? Plotting? Yeah but certainly not attacking him. Ooh they have weapons, well of course they have weapons! You think an Organization ruled by a madman isn't gonna have weapons?! Org: Either they attack this boy or get attacked by Xenmas. Sora: Either he must eliminates these people or others might get hurt. No where in there on either side is a thought of maybe I can do this instead of that, both are just see things in one way and that is that.
[qoute]And once he's in a fight with them, it might not be possible to let them live. Particularly if, as it seems, the Nobodies fade out of weariness rather than physical injury - at least, Sora's not really in a position to have dealt a final blow in all but one case (Luxord) - he might not even be able to tell how much is too much even if he wanted to.[/quote]Sora never had the thought of letting them live cross his mind and like you said once he is in the fight he can't really stop or more or less doesn't want to stop. I have never seen Sora stop attacking while in a fight for moral reasons, even when Riku(in black cloak) tries to aid him in Land of dragons he attacks and doesn't look at what Riku was really doing(he was killing the heartless).
No, you see he is first told that the nobodies shouldn't exist and in turn are bad with that information Sora goes out and does his "heroic duty" but like you said the one piece of evidence is Axel's change before he died so if Axel was able to change then why not the other members? The point is that Sora thinks that all nobodies and heartless are evil and need to be destroyed when it is clear that they can be either or.
Well if the boy would think for a second of why this random guy called me a traitor I wouldn't be angry. I want to see some damn thoughts pass though this kids mind, I don't like the way Sora just brushes off important issues like "what is like to not exist or not have a heart" or even "why is this man with a eye patch and a scar yelling at me". No Sora just goes "Huh?" and then "RAWR!!"not that he doesn't have a right to but could he at least exhibit some sign of intelligence.
I have not said that the Org members aren't evil that is not the question here my point is that with the motives they had shouldn't Sora have at least considered thinking of something else besides destruction? Yes they do bad things to get what they longed for and in way so did someone like Riku. Riku joined the dark side to try and help Kairi and was manipulated just like the Org for something he wanted even if it meant betraying Sora or even hurting others, should Riku have been killed cause he was bad? No because he is your friend who is being controlled, right? Wrong because if you admit that someone can turn from good to bad then why not the opposite? Sora never sees or even thinks of that and that is my problem, albeit that Riku's cause wasn't as extreme but it still a very similar case. Not that he is evil, not that he is good but that he is a prime example of "attack now and ask questions later"
Do you realize how many thoughts the brain can make in a mere 10 minutes. Sora doesn't have to worry constantly about Riku and Kairi he just chooses to dwell on that one thing which probably just adds more fuel to the fire instead of thinking about other issues.
Was Sora really wondering whether Riku and Kairi were alright when he was doing Struggle? Probably not. Was he thinking about them when he was in the 100 acre woods? Maybe maybe not. Is he thinking about them in between the times of going to a new world/leaving one? Possibly. The list goes on and on (which doesn't really prove anything mind you cause he can make time) but the fact is Sora has time to think about other things and question stuff but he just chooses not to.
Sora not doubting Yensid is understandable for a follower but not for a hero who has to deal with these "conflicting" issues that can cause one to think about what it means to exist and whatnot. With that said I still hold my position of neutrality.
I'm tired so there might bit a couple things in there that don't make sense grammar wise.
Either way they are a rebellious group that threaten the peace and stability of the established governments. They may want their way but they are using terrorist methods. They send out their little weapons of mass destruction( the heartless) to terrorize people and take their hearts. In the process these little creatures or weapons of mass destruction are destroying established civilizations. These apprentices have also violated direct orders from their leader and engaged in illegal, unauthorized experiments. After disobeying such orders, they later lose their hearts and form a little rebel group to destroy their leader and all established governments across the galaxy. Because they defied their government and formed their own little conferderacy, they are nothing but traitors and like all traitors they must be executed or imprisoned.
Also to add, these apprentices kidnapped a girl from her home and used more terror methods to make Sora do their bidding. Org. XIII's list of law breaking goes on and on. Oh and let's add stealing to the list. Demyx was not a citizen of Olympus Coliseum and just strolled in and stole a valuable medallion from the GREEK GODS, who pretty much watches over that world.
Judging from Kawa's words, he/she wants Sora to defy orders from his superiors, assist in destroying governments, and become a terrorist slime like a Org. XIII member.
Also to add, these apprentices kidnapped a girl from her home and used more terror methods to make Sora do their bidding. Org. XIII's list of law breaking goes on and on. Oh and let's add stealing to the list. Demyx was not a citizen of Olympus Coliseum and just strolled in and stole a valuable medallion from the GREEK GODS, who pretty much watches over that world.
Judging from Kawa's words, he/she wants Sora to defy orders from his superiors, assist in destroying governments, and become a terrorist slime like a Org. XIII member.
When the hell did I say that I want Sora to aid the Org to destroy the damn government? You sound like President Bush which isn't normal even for you. Hey Puck do they have weapons of mass destruction too? Are they hording hearts from the people that need them? Are they on a psychological jihad? Wait no we have to stop Square from funding a Terrorist organization or all of the world will be effected by their terror. Let's hold open elections for the next S-E president so people will have a choice on the matter of terrorism. Hahaha, you are just making my day.Puck said:
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The Organisation used Sora as a puppet so he can do all their bidding...They unleased countless creatures that Sora could kill and yet in the end, they would of disposed of Sora...Sora had to destroy the Organisation.
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Well, maybe assumed isn't quite the right word. What I was getting at was, even in the Demyx case (which is the only truly hard case out of all of them, because the other Organization members were clearly a threat and Sora wasn't seeking them out, apart from Xemnas), it doesn't look (to either us or Sora) like he's there just to ask Sora whether he wants to go out for sea-salt ice cream. He appears in the middle of an invasion, is apparently surprised that Sora is there, and is part of the organization that's carrying out that invasion.
It seems clear that he's there to do the same thing as the rest of the Organization, hence, he's a threat. He might not act or talk like one, but Sora's been told that the Organization would try to confuse him.
Besides, fighting isn't Sora's first response anyway. He's not exactly nice to Demyx, sure, but it could be a way of figuring out whether Demyx is acting or not. And Demyx's responses aren't exactly reassuring.
Sora says, "I bet you can't even fight." Demyx's response is, "You can't judge anyone by appearances," which sounds a bit like a veiled threat (though, it's probably more of a bluff, considering his reaction to Sora's response). Sora responds by preparing his Keyblade - but drops out of the defensive posture once Demyx says, "I told them they were sending the wrong guy." He and Donald then try to call Demyx's "acting" out - "Right -- no hearts!" and "You can't fool us," to which Demyx brings out his own weapon and starts the fight.
To Sora, that probably looked like, "Well, I guess the act is up" more than "I don't want to fight, but you're making me." Which would be even more proof towards Yen Sid's words.
The thing is, we know that Demyx was meant to be the "nice guy" of the Organization, so it's easy to think that he really meant everything. But even with our extra knowledge, it's not clear that the entire thing wasn't an act on Demyx's part, so it's not fair to expect Sora to think it isn't.
Well, no, they weren't attacking him at that point, because they still needed him to kill Heartless and complete their Kingdom Hearts. But things changed at the end, and in a very significant way, before any of the Organization members post-Axel died.
Saix tells Sora right out - "Organization XIII has no further use for you." Which means, from that point out, they want him dead.
If someone wants you dead, and force you to fight them to the death, it's not evil if you end up having to kill them. It's self-defense. Once it gets to the point where Sora either has to fight or die, it doesn't even matter how noble the Organization's motives are, Sora needs to be able to protect himself.
And the "attack this boy or get attacked by Xemnas" thing doesn't work - it's pretty clear that most of the post-Axel members have their own reasons for doing it. Xigbar seems all too happy to carry out his orders (or at least, that's what "You really shouldn't have betrayed us. *smirk*" implies to me), Saix clearly takes some kind of sadistic enjoyment in the idea of killing Sora ("How I've waited to hear that" when he gets his orders), and Xemnas isn't acting on anyone's orders besides his own. Maybe Luxord is, or maybe he isn't, but he's not willing to talk about it either way.
It's not really Sora's fault that he doesn't stop - I don't think "he doesn't want to stop" is a fair assessment. He can't stop, because if he stops fighting and the other person doesn't, he'll be killed. It's pretty simple, really. And Sora stops in the Riku fight once Riku shows that he doesn't want to fight anymore, so it's not like he can't stop himself at all.
As for "never having the thought of letting them live cross his mind," well, I don't think his intentions ever were "take out the entire Organization" (that was more DiZ and Riku's thing. It's Riku, not Sora, who's the one who says "We must defeat Xemnas. He's the Organization's last survivor," the phrasing of which implies that Xemnas must be defeated because he's the Organization's last survivor; this is complicated by the fact that he let Axel live earlier, though Axel was no longer fighting for it, so who knows) as much as, "stop the Organization from hurting people." If he was put in Riku's situation of being ordered to kill a defenseless Namine and Axel, he wouldn't do it, either.
Maybe they could - but, not long after he learns this piece of information, the Organization changes their goals to include Sora's death, which makes it highly unlikely that any of the members would be willing to change because he was nice to them or something.
As for thinking all Nobodies are evil... well, he certainly didn't show that towards Namine and Roxas when they appear out of Kairi and him. Or when he first learns about Roxas - he says it's crazy that he'd have a Nobody, but that's only because he forgot about getting turned into a Heartless, not because he can't believe something evil like that came from him. And he wishes he could meet Roxas. Not the kind of thing he'd want to do if he thought all Nobodies were evil, right?
He does wonder. I think he thinks Demyx is just an oddball who has the wrong guy at first, and Demyx ignores the, "why are you calling me that" so Sora has no reason to stop thinking this. He's just as confused when Xigbar calls him Roxas, and he does try to ask - he's just a bit late about it, though I don't think you can blame him for it, considering that as soon as Xigbar shuts up about how Sora's pathetic compared to the past Keyblade wielders, he's trying to kill Sora, and doesn't stop until he's already dying. Luxord makes it quite clear that he doesn't want to answer questions ("I'd rather we just skip the formalities.") and doesn't call Sora Roxas until he's dying anyway and it's too late for Sora to ask, and by the time he gets to Saix, he's already been refused the answer three times so he probably thinks he just isn't going to get it from the Organization. It's not like he's wasn't thinking about it.
As for not thinking about what it's like not to have a heart... well, I wouldn't want to have to think about it if I were him, either. Though it's not like he never considers it - he does when thinking about the Experiment in Halloween Town, who also only wanted a heart ("Hmm... when you put it that way, I sort of feel bad for it"), and I'd be kind of surprised if he didn't make the connection with the Nobodies. And he does seem to pity Xemnas for not knowing what it's really like to have a heart - look at his expressions when Xemnas is fading in the first armor-Xemnas fight, when he says, "[The heart]'s full of all kind of feelings. Don't you remember?" Sora's tone almost sounds pleading at the last part, and his "we saved the world" victory laugh thing seems a lot more half-hearted and forced than his "We did it!" after he and Riku beat Xemnas for the final time (...granted, fighting someone to the death four times in a row probably does a lot to make you lose your pity for them). Not what you'd expect if Sora didn't give any thought to what Nobodies felt like.
But Sora doesn't have another choice, really. He has to go to The World That Never Was, because Kairi's being kept there there, and Xigbar attacks him because of it. Xigbar wants Sora dead, and attacks him first. There's no alternate solution - Sora either has to kill Xigbar, or he dies.
Considering the fact that you called Xemnas a madman, you clearly think that he needed to be stopped. So, it's heroic for Sora to continue on in the castle to look for Xemnas, so he can stop Xemnas from destroying other worlds and hurting people.
This, of course, forces Sora to run into Luxord and Saix before he can move on and find Xemnas - and, like Xigbar, the first thing they do when they see him is try to kill him. No choice, again -just fight until they can no longer attack him, or get killed.
Any course of action that Sora could try to take with the Nobodies requires him to move through that castle and come face to face with the Nobodies. And the Nobodies will take any face to face meeting with Sora as an opportunity to kill him.
I'm not seeing what other options there are for him to consider, really.
As for Riku... well, yeah, he's pretty much in the same boat of "doing bad things for a not-so-bad reason," which is why it's fortunate that it never ended up coming down to kill or be killed because Riku had a better sense of when to run away. And I doubt Sora would have attacked the Organization members if they decided to run, apart from Xemnas who was the main threat anyway. He certainly didn't seem worried about the fact that Demyx decided to leave the first time, in any case.
I'm not saying that was the only thing he was thinking about. xD But, when he's doing Struggle, or in the 100 Acre Wood, he's not thinking about the Nobodies, either. Most likely, when he's on different worlds, he's thinking about his friends on that world more than anything else - or, fighting for his life against the various Heartless and Nobodies who appear.
And the gummi ship times don't really count, either - he's forced to fight for his life then, too, considering the fact that the Heartless and Nobodies have gummi ships of their own and want to destroy his. Not the best time to be thinking about what it's like to be lacking a heart.
I think it's pretty understandable that he doesn't think about what the Nobodies' motives are or such.
I don't think a lack of deep thinking is enough to disqualify Sora from being a hero. Sora's a hero because he's willing to risk his life to protect his friends, not because he's the brightest bulb in the box.
And I still don't see much conflicting. Demyx, if you're not willing to interpret him charitably, seems like the perfect example of what Yen Sid said about Nobodies trying to trick people into thinking they have hearts. Xaldin, Saix, Luxord, Xigbar, and Xemnas don't demonstrate a single action that is not clearly trying to harm either Sora or someone he cares about. The only thing that conflicts this is Axel - and he's not only against the Organization, but acts completely different than any of them in the two times that Sora sees him.
And Axel himself seems to want Sora not to question that the Organization is wrong, considering that he refuses to tell Sora that they're collecting hearts to get their own back, but that's not really relevant since Sora doesn't know that.
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since everyone seems to think you need to have a smart hero in games (i'll give you anime too), can you name 5 smart heroes of the top of your head (seriously i'd like to see some). just for some examples, right off my head of not so smart heroes:
1) yusuke urameshi, high school clown and dumb enough to be hit by a car and floating through the air and not realize he is dead
2) tidus, smarter than some but not exactly einstein, he goes into the middle of a battle lying about being able to use a sword effectively (not a smart move lol)
3)naruto, dumb as a rock, the only reason he's still alive is because he heals almost as soon as he is injured
4) Goku... nuff said
and 5) Mario, jumps through sewer pipes to god knows where, eats "magical mushrooms" that make him bigger...lol, and rides a giant lizard that flicks its tongue out and eats flying turtles(plus, he's a plumber, not exactly a job requiring a college degree)
and just to get in those who say the protagonist has to stand up for what is right and defend the innocent and all that crap
6) Light, from Deathnote, has a god complex, wants to remake the world in his image of a better place, gives people heart attacks if their face is on tv, and make s a death god do the apple dance. surely he is the pinnacle of society *voice drips with sarcasm*
1) yusuke urameshi, high school clown and dumb enough to be hit by a car and floating through the air and not realize he is dead
2) tidus, smarter than some but not exactly einstein, he goes into the middle of a battle lying about being able to use a sword effectively (not a smart move lol)
3)naruto, dumb as a rock, the only reason he's still alive is because he heals almost as soon as he is injured
4) Goku... nuff said
and 5) Mario, jumps through sewer pipes to god knows where, eats "magical mushrooms" that make him bigger...lol, and rides a giant lizard that flicks its tongue out and eats flying turtles(plus, he's a plumber, not exactly a job requiring a college degree)
and just to get in those who say the protagonist has to stand up for what is right and defend the innocent and all that crap
6) Light, from Deathnote, has a god complex, wants to remake the world in his image of a better place, gives people heart attacks if their face is on tv, and make s a death god do the apple dance. surely he is the pinnacle of society *voice drips with sarcasm*
Okay, look, Sora is not evil. You have to sit down and look at it from all points of views. Xemnas and the others wanted hearts, all they wanted was to feel emotion. Good guy cause? Seems so doesn't it...Wrong. I know that Xemnas and the other members only wanted hearts, but they were really willing to do anything to obtain one. What do you think would have happened to all the hearts they gathered? For all DiZ knew those hearts might have disappeared and thousands of lives could have been lost and for what? Just because thirteen people wanted to have hearts. As far as I see it, the organization could have just asked Sora to help look for their heartless counterparts and told him to slay them so that they could be whole again. Besides this wasn't a 'lets get a heart' trip for Xemnas. I think he anticipated that Sora would kill all of the other members and then he would kill Sora and become a power major just like counterpart Ansem Seeker of Darkness did.
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