Son of God

[Einon SAMA]

I have this question thats always bugged me about some members of "christianity".

Why do you believe Jesus to be God? Please give me you best reasons for believing so. Reasonably... those reasons should be from the Bible itself.

Here are just a few reasons for why I disagree with that belief.
1.Jesus NEVER claimed to be God, but his son. (a seperate entity from the father)
2.Jesus glorified his Father's name as he performed miracles and not himself.
3.Jesus says that the Father is greater than he, and that he was going to be sitting at God's right hand.(If he is at "GOD's" right hand, then it doesn't make sense to me that he is God himself.
4.As he was being tortured, he screamed towards the heavens, asking GOD why he has turned his back to him.

These are just a few, but I would like your views on the matter, IF you have something to say about it. Ciao!

 

[Wehrmacht]

I'm an atheist, but I'd think of them separately, like you.

 

[Einon SAMA]

I'm an atheist, but I'd think of them separately, like you.

I see. Well, do you agree with me for just about the same reasons I have that belief, I hope.

 

[blinkboy211]

4.As he was being tortured, he screamed towards the heavens, asking GOD why he has turned his back to him.

Never heard of that one or i havent remembered that part. But he is not considered God but part of him. Jesus was to assend into Heavens to open the gates to the people of puritory. Jesus is God but not. I guess what you can say is he was suppose to be a piece of God and since that piece came from God then you have a son that has partial power of the father. Thats really the best i can offer i guess.

 

[Hollow Bastion]

The Trinity is one of the things I have against Christianity. Never could understand it really. Just seemed like polytheism hiding under the cloak of monotheism. "lol hay, I'm God's son and actually God himself. So, be sure you worship me as well!"

Of course, you could try the whole metaphorical part of "son" and say that all humans are "sons" and "daughters" of God. But that's a separate topic.

 

[Einon SAMA]

Jesus is God but not. I guess what you can say is he was suppose to be a piece of God and since that piece came from God then you have a son that has partial power of the father. Thats really the best i can offer i guess.

Okay. So Jesus is a piece from God? Even in your quote there are 2 people. 2 persons with 2 different wills. One of them is but a servant of the other. As you know, Satan himself tempted Jesus, asking him to do an act of worship to Satan. Really, what would be the point if Jesus was God? Or even a part of God? Jesus replied that, "...to God alone you must worship."

 

[Fatal_Blade]

Never heard of that one or i havent remembered that part. But he is not considered God but part of him. Jesus was to assend into Heavens to open the gates to the people of puritory. Jesus is God but not. I guess what you can say is he was suppose to be a piece of God and since that piece came from God then you have a son that has partial power of the father. Thats really the best i can offer i guess.

Its kind of like Jesus is God in the flesh.

 

[Ryu]

Einon listed a series of arguments that I liked to use as well when debating the Trinity. The Bible is more than clear on this matter, and anything even resembling a Trinity was never even mentioned in the Bible.

Saying that Jesus is a piece of God and therefore is God makes no sense. Since God is the creator of all life, you could deduct from that the idea that everyone and everything is a "part" of him. But that does not make me God or even remotely equal to God. Saying that Jesus is a piece of God and therefore is God (in the metaphorical context especially) would make as much sense as me claiming to be my father because I am created from his genes.

 

[blinkboy211]

Its kind of like Jesus is God in the flesh.

This is the best thing i heard so far.

Okay. So Jesus is a piece from God? Even in your quote there are 2 people. 2 persons with 2 different wills. One of them is but a servant of the other. As you know, Satan himself tempted Jesus, asking him to do an act of worship to Satan. Really, what would be the point if Jesus was God? Or even a part of God? Jesus replied that, "...to God alone you must worship."

Jesus was a part of God so he is god but just humana version i guess you can say. But Jesus always acted as just the son when really he is just a living God. Jesus doesnt have the memories of God which makes him like human. God gave part of himself to the world to spread good for those he seek him. But God couldnt open the door of heaven from the inside and needed a piece of him to die and rise to heaven to open it. Thus the reason he place Jesus inside Mary.

 

[√]

Why do you believe Jesus to be God? Please give me you best reasons for believing so.

Reasonably... those reasons should be from the Bible itself.

Jesus is not a God but the Son, just like you said.
Also, i'm a christian.

1.Jesus NEVER claimed to be God, but his son. (a seperate entity from the father)
2.Jesus glorified his Father's name as he performed miracles and not himself.
3.Jesus says that the Father is greater than he, and that he was going to be sitting at God's right hand.(If he is at "GOD's" right hand, then it doesn't make sense to me that he is God himself.

All of this is true.

4.As he was being tortured, he screamed towards the heavens, asking GOD why he has turned his back to him.

Is this about Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane?

The Trinity is one of the things I have against Christianity. Never could understand it really. Just seemed like polytheism hiding under the cloak of monotheism. "lol hay, I'm God's son and actually God himself. So, be sure you worship me as well!"

Here's my opinion on the Trinity.

God, Jesus and the Holy spirit as the Trinity says, is one.
I believe that they are one because they have one purpose.
And that purpose is the salvation of mankind.

 

[Ryu]

They are one because they have the same purpose? That being your sole reason for believing in the Trinity?

God did not create mankind with the intention of messing them up and then saving them. Jesus was not created with the intention of saving mankind. Sure enough, he was sent to earth for that purpose, and then he "died for our sins". That means his purpose was fulfilled, as well as God's. Which would mean Jesus or God has no purpose right now. And the Holy Spirit isn't even spoken of as an entity, like God or Jesus.

Doesn't really shed any light on Einon's question.

 

[Einon SAMA]

Is this about Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane?

Never heard of that one or i havent remembered that part.

Matthew 27:46 27:46 At about three o’clock Jesus shouted with a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

This also shows that they are two DIFFERENT people. It is Jesus' God along with ours.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: "Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father...I am ascending to MY Father and your Father and to MY God (someone you worship other than yourself) AND your God.

Also, I'd like to meantion that I'm amazed at the fact of those who claim to be Christians, but have different views to who and what Christ really is. That means someone is wrong. And honestly, I'd say that any nonbiased person to pick up the bible would most definately not agree with the trinity belief.

 

[iholdthekeys]

The One True God

The one true God has revealed Himself as the eternally self-existent "I AM," the Creator of heaven and earth and the Redeemer of mankind. He has further revealed Himself as embodying the principles of relationship and association as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

*
Deuteronomy 6:4 [KJV/NIV]
*
Isaiah 43:10,11 [KJV/NIV]
*
Matthew 28:19 [KJV/NIV]
*
Luke 3:22 [KJV/NIV]

The Adorable Godhead

a. Terms Defined
The terms "Trinity" and "persons" as related to the Godhead, while not found in the Scriptures, are words in harmony with Scripture, whereby we may convey to others our immediate understanding of the doctrine of Christ respecting the Being of God, as distinguished from "gods many and lords many." We therefore may speak with propriety of the Lord our God who is One Lord, as a trinity or as one Being of three persons, and still be absolutely scriptural.

* Matthew 28:19 [KJV/NIV]
* 2 Corinthians 13:14 [KJV/NIV]
* John 14:16-17 [KJV/NIV]

b. Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead
Christ taught a distinction of Persons in the Godhead which He expressed in specific terms of relationship, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that this distinction and relationship, as to its mode is inscrutable and incomprehensible, because unexplained.

o Luke 1:35 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 Corinthians 1:24 [KJV/NIV]
o Matthew 11:25-27 [KJV/NIV]
o Matthew 28:19 [KJV/NIV]
o 2 Corinthians 13:14 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 1:3-4 [KJV/NIV])

c. Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Accordingly, therefore, there is that in the Father which constitutes him the Father and not the Son; there is that in the Son which constitutes Him the Son and not the Father; and there is that in the Holy Spirit which constitutes Him the Holy Spirit and not either the Father or the Son. Wherefore the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Spirit is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one.

o John 1:18 [KJV/NIV]
o John 15:26 [KJV/NIV]
o John 17:11 [KJV/NIV]
o John 17:21 [KJV/NIV]
o Zechariah 14:9 [KJV/NIV]

d. Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are never identical as to Person; nor confused as to relation; nor divided in respect to the Godhead; nor opposed as to cooperation. The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son as to relationship. The Son is with the Father and the Father is with the Son, as to fellowship. The Father is not from the Son, but the Son is from the Father, as to authority. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son proceeding, as to nature, relationship, cooperation and authority. Hence, neither Person in the Godhead either exists or works separately or independently of the others.

o John 5:17-30 [KJV/NIV]
o John 5:32 [KJV/NIV]
o John 5:37 [KJV/NIV]
o John 8:17,18 [KJV/NIV]

e. The Title, Lord Jesus Christ
The appellation, "Lord Jesus Christ," is a proper name. It is never applied in the New Testament, either to the Father or to the Holy Spirit. It therefore belongs exclusively to the Son of God.

* Romans 1:1-3 [KJV/NIV]
* 2 John 1:3 [KJV/NIV

f. The Lord Jesus Christ, God with Us
The Lord Jesus Christ, as to His divine and eternal nature, is the proper and only Begotten of the Father, but as to His human nature, He is the proper Son of Man. He is therefore, acknowledged to be both God and man; who because He is God and man is "Immanuel," God with us.

o Matthew 1:23 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 4:2 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 4:10 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 4:14 [KJV/NIV]
o Revelation 1:13 [KJV/NIV]
o Revelation 1:17 [KJV/NIV]

g. The Title, Son of God
Since the name "Immanuel" embraces both God and man in the one Person, our Lord Jesus Christ, it follows that the title, Son of God, describes His proper deity, and the title, Son of Man, His proper humanity. Therefore, the title Son of God, belongs to the order of eternity, and the title, Son of Man, to the order of time.

o Matthew 1:21-23 [KJV/NIV]
o 2 John 1:3 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 3:8 [KJV/NIV]
o Hebrews 7:3 [KJV/NIV]
o Hebrews 1:1-13 [KJV/NIV]

h. Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ
Wherefore, it is a transgression of the Doctrine of Christ to say that Jesus Christ derived the title, Son of God, solely from the fact of the incarnation, or because of His relation to the economy of redemption. Therefore, to deny that the Father is a real and eternal Father, and that the Son is a real and eternal Son, is a denial of the distinction and relationship in the Being of God; a denial of the Father, and the Son; and a displacement of the truth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

o 2 John 1:9 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:1 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:2 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:14 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:18 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:29 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:49 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 2:22,23 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 4:1-5 [KJV/NIV]
o Hebrews 12:2 [KJV/NIV]

i. Exaltation of Jesus Christ as Lord
The Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, having by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; angels and principalities and powers having been made subject unto Him. And having been made both Lord and Christ, He sent the Holy Spirit that we, in the name of Jesus, might bow our knees and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father until the end, when the Son shall become subject to the Father that God may be all in all.

o Hebrews 1:3 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 Peter 3:22 [KJV/NIV]
o Acts 2:32-36 [KJV/NIV]
o Romans 14:11 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 [KJV/NIV]

j. Equal Honor to the Father and to the Son
Wherefore, since the Father has delivered all judgment unto the Son, it is not only the express duty of all in heaven and on earth to bow the knee, but it is an unspeakable joy in the Holy Spirit to ascribe unto the Son all the attributes of Deity, and to give Him all honor and the glory contained in all the names and titles of the Godhead except those which express relationship (see Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead, Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit , and Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead) and thus honor the Son even as we honor the Father.

o John 5:22,23 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 Peter 1:8 [KJV/NIV]
o Revelation 5:6-14 [KJV/NIV]
o Philippians 2:8,9 [KJV/NIV]
o Revelation 7:9-10 [KJV/NIV]
o Revelation 4:8-11 [KJV/NIV]


srry i didn't put in the actual verses, there's kind of alot

 

[Ryu]

tl;dr

And instead of disproving Einon's quoted verses, you copied and pasted one or two pages of bullshit off a Googled site. I'm not even going to bother.

 

[Miss Murder]

I had the same question a few years ago.

When I attended Church, I asked the pastor the very same question.

He basically said that the Trinity was like an egg.
You have the white, the shell, and the yolk. Three different things, but all of the same entity.
Eh.

Not very helpful, is it.

 

[Einon SAMA]

So what you're saying is, God (Jesus, who is clearly represented as NOT God by currently being at his right hand) worships himself. Though he is from God and has his same purpose means he is God? How does one come to this conclusion? Dont even get me started on the Holy Spirit.

Lol. After all that, iholdthekeys, I STILL wonder why people believe in the trinity. All of that is so far reached to create the belief in the trinity.

It never ceases to amaze me how people will reach so far and come up with the most absurd theories when simple statements such as I have quoted give a most reasonable and satisfying answer.

Ryu said it, I'm not gonna bother anymore either. Thanks though.

 

[Oceayo]

Think of the Trinity as a clover and each leaf represents God,Jesus and the Holyspirit.
I think that Jesus referred to himself as separate from God because when God became incarnate in Jesus he gained a new free will/conscious mind.

 

[iholdthekeys]

So what you're saying is, God (Jesus, who is clearly represented as NOT God by currently being at his right hand) worships himself. Though he is from God and has his same purpose means he is God? How does one come to this conclusion? Dont even get me started on the Holy Spirit.

Lol. After all that, iholdthekeys, I STILL wonder why people believe in the trinity. All of that is so far reached to create the belief in the trinity.

It never ceases to amaze me how people will reach so far and come up with the most absurd theories when simple statements such as I have quoted give a most reasonable and satisfying answer.

Ryu said it, I'm not gonna bother anymore either. Thanks though.

from what you said in you first paragraph i think you misunderstood what i posted earlier or maybe i'm misunderstanding what you're saying, lol. either way the trinity is definitely a tough subject and cannot be explained merely by analogies such as egg, water, or cloverleaf. in Psalm 139:6, King David writes "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is so high that I cannot attain it." and it is said of David in the bible in Acts 13:22 that "After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do."(NIV) Even David who God says himself was a man after his own heart, could not know everything because it was simply too much, too wonderful for him. that is where i would leave the mystery of the trinity because it is so hard to explain and understand how the trinity works. i'm not sure what you mean about people coming up with theories about the trinity and the such, but i can assure you that although the trinity is NOT mentioned in the bible, the theme/idea of the trinity can be found all across the bible, even starting with Genesis in the story of creation. Genesis 1:26 says "Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." (NRSV) notice how it says "OUR" twice in the beginning. even since before the beginning when we were created the trinity was around. if you want more verses concerning the trinity being found around the bible lemme know and i'll pull them up for you. anyhows, you are welcome! :thumbsup:

 

[Phoenix]

He basically said that the Trinity was like an egg.
You have the white, the shell, and the yolk. Three different things, but all of the same entity.
Eh.

Which sucks as an analogy because a yolk isn't an egg, a shell isn't an egg and the white isn't an egg; they're parts of an egg. So, following this line of thought, Jesus isn't God, the Father isn't God and the HS isn't God, so I'm not sure who thought of this analogy originally, but he didn't give it much thought.

Genesis 1:26 says "Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." (NRSV) notice how it says "OUR" twice in the beginning. even since before the beginning when we were created the trinity was around. if you want more verses concerning the trinity being found around the bible lemme know and i'll pull them up for you. anyhows, you are welcome!

Or, you know, he could be talking to his court of angels, which was created before humanity. This is an example of taking a neutral verse and twisting it so that it fits your beliefs. The Trinity isn't in the Bible, the idea of Trinity isn't in the Bible, the word isn't even used at any point in the Bible.

 

[Miss Murder]

Yeah.
Like I said, not helpful nor useful in the slightest.

But that's what I was told.
Maybe I quoted it wrong or remembered incorrectly, considering I was told that a couple of years ago.