Someone please clarify this for me



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS

Nazo

Hope Remains
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
4,773
Location
United States
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • NieR: Automata
  • Keyblade Champion
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5+2.5 ReMIX
  • The Foreteller
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue
Okay, this has been bugging me for some time. I'm someone who has the KH lore memorized like a crazy person and yet for the life of me, I cannot quite figure this out.

In the game, when Sora and Riku begin their Mark of Mastery exam, do they travel through time and physically disappear from Yen Sid's tower? Or are they sleeping in the tower, and their hearts are traveling through time?

Because I keep getting thrown off by the fact that the worlds are called "Sleeping Worlds". I get that they are called that because of the fact that the worlds are trapped in their perpetual loop caused by being stuck in between Realms, and thus they are "sleeping". But do you have to be asleep in order to access them? Or is it strictly a time travel thing, and physically going to sleep has nothing to do with accessing them?
 

Chuman

Dad of Boy
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
12,699
Age
20
  • Savage Nymph
  • Come So Far
  • Come So Far
  • Come So Far
  • The Gambler of Fate
  • Dandelion
well i assumed it was physical considering i don't remember a transition to TWTNW. the only time we saw either sleeping was when sora had to be saved.
 

Nazo

Hope Remains
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
4,773
Location
United States
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • NieR: Automata
  • Keyblade Champion
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5+2.5 ReMIX
  • The Foreteller
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue
well i assumed it was physical considering i don't remember a transition to TWTNW. the only time we saw either sleeping was when sora had to be saved.
And that's where I'm confused. Did Sora's body return to the world after his heart was stolen by YX? Or were Sora and Riku asleep in the Tower the whole time, but Riku is the only one who wakes up?
 

Audo

press △ to sora
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
5,367
Age
27
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Key of Destiny
  • O, Purest of Hearts
  • Savage Nymph
  • Graceful Assassin
  • Come So Far
Sora and Riku do travel through time, back to the night Destiny Islands fell to darkness. Upon entering the RoS they seem to enter a state of sleep within the realm as well.

And that's where I'm confused. Did Sora's body return to the world after his heart was stolen by YX? Or were Sora and Riku asleep in the Tower the whole time, but Riku is the only one who wakes up?
Sora's heart was never stolen. It fell into sleep. I believe we are meant to assume that Sora and Riku are complete beings the entirety of the game. They aren't "sleeping in the tower" for the whole game. When they are in real TWTNW, they are physically there.
 

flyingfishstick

New member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Messages
239
Location
The uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end
In the game, when Sora and Riku begin their Mark of Mastery exam, do they travel through time and physically disappear from Yen Sid's tower? Or are they sleeping in the tower, and their hearts are traveling through time?
-
Sora and Riku physically travel back in time using a completely different method of time travel that is apparently inaccessible to Xehanort. For whatever unexplained reason, Sora and Riku are able to travel back in time with their bodies intact. Their bodes are no longer in Mysterious Tower. The fan assumption has always been that Merlin's time related abilities are responsible for all the rules Sora and Riku are able to break that Xehanort must follow. It's kind of lazy and poorly explained, but it is what it is.

Because I keep getting thrown off by the fact that the worlds are called "Sleeping Worlds". I get that they are called that because of the fact that the worlds are trapped in their perpetual loop caused by being stuck in between Realms, and thus they are "sleeping". But do you have to be asleep in order to access them? Or is it strictly a time travel thing, and physically going to sleep has nothing to do with accessing them?
The sleeping worlds exist within the Realm of Sleep. It's another Realm that exists alongside the realms of Light, darkness, and between. I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but I believe when a world falls to darkness, the worlds sleeping mind manifests within the Realm of Sleep. This allows the world some form of existence, despite having disappeared from the Realm of Light/Between. It's not necessarily a time travel thing, but you need to be present on a world falling into darkness and find its sleeping keywhole in order to enter the RoS. Post KHI, worlds aren't falling into darkness anymore.


And that's where I'm confused. Did Sora's body return to the world after his heart was stolen by YX? Or were Sora and Riku asleep in the Tower the whole time, but Riku is the only one who wakes up?
By the time you see the TWTNW world logo, in both Riku and Sora's campaigns, Sora has left the Realm of Sleep and Riku is no longer trapped within Sora's dreams (as he has been since they entered the destiny island keyhole). The two are in the actual Realm Between in the actual TWTNW. It should be noted that Sora's heart was never stolen by YX, it was buried beneath layer upon of sleep until it nearly fell to darkness. What remained of Ventus was able to prevent this from happening. This postpones Sora's death, allowing time for Riku, Axle, and co. to physically travel back to the Mysterious Tower with Sora's body in order to discuss the situation with Yin Sid.

The end of this game is a clusterf*ck
 
Last edited:

Audo

press △ to sora
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
5,367
Age
27
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Key of Destiny
  • O, Purest of Hearts
  • Savage Nymph
  • Graceful Assassin
  • Come So Far
-Sora and Riku physically travel back in time using a completely different method of time travel that is apparently inaccessible to Xehanort. For whatever unexplained reason, Sora and Riku are able to travel back in time with their bodies intact. The fan assumption has always been that Merlin's time related abilities are responsible for all the rules Sora and Riku are able to break that Xehanort must follow. It's kind of lazy and poorly explained, but it is what it is.
The game establishes that Sora and Riku time traveled in the same manner as Xehanort. Xigbar specifically makes the connection in his first conversation with Sora as a way to explain how Xehanort, too, was also time traveling just like they had. It's also established to be the case in the Yen Sid convo with DGM. Goofy asks if Xehanort could've traveled just like Sora and Riku and Yen Sid says "not without a version of himself already being there" to which Mickey says that there WAS a version of him there. So the game goes out of its way twice to say that Xehanort traveled the same as Sora and Riku.

The confusing bit is Yen Sid's line about "Not even Xehanort can transport his whole body across swaths of time" or whatever, which would imply that neither could Sora and Riku. I don't know if this is a translation issue or if there is something missing here.
 
Last edited:

BlackOsprey

Hell yeah
Joined
Jul 5, 2015
Messages
4,534
  • Steadfast Heart
  • Ever Gentle and Kind
  • Superior of the In-Between
  • Flix and Chill
  • Fairest of them All
  • Crafty Soul
The confusing bit is Yen Sid's line about "Not even Xehanort can transport his whole body across swaths of time" or whatever, which would imply that neither could Sora and Riku. I don't know if this is a translation issue or if there is something missing here.
I think what that phrase was supposed to mean was "not even Xehanort can just leap back in time and be in a place that he never was in the past." Yen Sid said this before Mickey tells him Mr. Robe Guy was skulking around on the Islands right before they fell, so he assumed that Xehanort wasn't there at that time, and therefore wouldn't be able to make the leap.
 

Audo

press △ to sora
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
5,367
Age
27
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Key of Destiny
  • O, Purest of Hearts
  • Savage Nymph
  • Graceful Assassin
  • Come So Far
I think what that phrase was supposed to mean was "not even Xehanort can just leap back in time and be in a place that he never was in the past."
Yeah that's the way to interpret it that makes the most sense. But the phrasing is still pretty weird. It does kind of imply that time travel is just sending your heart back and that like... the "you" already there makes up/gives you your physical presence or something (like a Portal maybe?). It's weird. I'd really like to see how it is worded in the Japanese. But yeah the larger point Yen Sid is making is that someone can't transport themselves somewhere where they weren't there before.
 

BlackOsprey

Hell yeah
Joined
Jul 5, 2015
Messages
4,534
  • Steadfast Heart
  • Ever Gentle and Kind
  • Superior of the In-Between
  • Flix and Chill
  • Fairest of them All
  • Crafty Soul
Yeah that's the way to interpret it that makes the most sense. But the phrasing is still pretty weird. It does kind of imply that time travel is just sending your heart back and that like... the "you" already there makes up/gives you your physical presence or something (like a Portal maybe?). It's weird. I'd really like to see how it is worded in the Japanese. But yeah the larger point Yen Sid is making is that someone can't transport themselves somewhere where they weren't there before.
Yeeeah... the time travel could've been explained a little better. Every time I start wondering things like "what exactly travels through time?" or "what happens to your body in the present," I start getting a headache. I mean, obviously a time traveller's physical form doesn't stay in the present, or Sora's wouldn't have been able to just... manifest in the throne room.

Urgh. I'm gonna go beat my head against the glass or something.
 

Audo

press △ to sora
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
5,367
Age
27
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Key of Destiny
  • O, Purest of Hearts
  • Savage Nymph
  • Graceful Assassin
  • Come So Far
Yeeeah... the time travel could've been explained a little better. Every time I start wondering things like "what exactly travels through time?" or "what happens to your body in the present," I start getting a headache. I mean, obviously a time traveller's physical form doesn't stay in the present, or Sora's wouldn't have been able to just... manifest in the throne room.

Urgh. I'm gonna go beat my head against the glass or something.
Yeah and Sora as a vessel would've been useless if it was just his heart. That's... not the part that Xehanort needed lol.
 

Nazo

Hope Remains
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
4,773
Location
United States
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • NieR: Automata
  • Keyblade Champion
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5+2.5 ReMIX
  • The Foreteller
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue
And that's something they never explain. If Sora and Riku don't time travel bodily, where are they? We don't see their bodies in the Tower during the mid-game cutscenes. So where are their bodies at?
 

Audo

press △ to sora
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
5,367
Age
27
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Key of Destiny
  • O, Purest of Hearts
  • Savage Nymph
  • Graceful Assassin
  • Come So Far
This is why I think their bodies do travel with them. We don't see their bodies in the tower. Xehanort's plan would make no sense since what he needed is the vessel, not their heart. The only way both could work is if their bodies like... rejoined with them the minute they resurfaced in the Real World but that seems pretty unlikely. So the only thing that really makes sense is if they traveled back in time as complete beings.
 

Nazo

Hope Remains
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
4,773
Location
United States
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • NieR: Automata
  • Keyblade Champion
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5+2.5 ReMIX
  • The Foreteller
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue
And that would make sense if they explained that Yen Sid, being a powerful sorcerer, can override some of the time travel laws, which explains why Xehanort is going to use Sora as a vessel since he's still in bodily form, and why Sora and Riku don't lose their memories of time traveling afterwards.
 

Audo

press △ to sora
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
5,367
Age
27
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Key of Destiny
  • O, Purest of Hearts
  • Savage Nymph
  • Graceful Assassin
  • Come So Far
And that would make sense if they explained that Yen Sid, being a powerful sorcerer, can override some of the time travel laws, which explains why Xehanort is going to use Sora as a vessel since he's still in bodily form
Except MX is more powerful than Yen Sid. MX is positioned as the most powerful Keyblade Master in recent history. That's why Yen Sid says that line "Not even Xehanort" (read: "not even the most powerful Keyblade Master can break the rules of time travel"). I don't think it's necessary at all for Yen Sid to have magic powers. Just have people be able to travel through time as complete beings. Problem solved lol.

why Sora and Riku don't lose their memories of time traveling afterwards.
You only lose your memories if you travel forward through time, not backwards.
 

Nazo

Hope Remains
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
4,773
Location
United States
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • NieR: Automata
  • Keyblade Champion
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5+2.5 ReMIX
  • The Foreteller
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue
Okay, the memory thing makes sense. Good. But then, Sora and Riku travel through time bodily with zero explanation as to how, despite that it's a blatant contradiction of the time travel rules?

And, if I'm getting this correctly, bodily sleep has nothing to do with entering the Sleeping Worlds, yes? It's just the worlds that are trapped in sleep, and the characters don't have to fall asleep to access them, but rather they have to travel back in time to the point where a world is in the process of falling into sleep and then stay on it as it plunges into sleep, and then enter the Sleeping Worlds through the keyhole? All the while still being fully awake in bodily form? Right???
 
Last edited:

BlackOsprey

Hell yeah
Joined
Jul 5, 2015
Messages
4,534
  • Steadfast Heart
  • Ever Gentle and Kind
  • Superior of the In-Between
  • Flix and Chill
  • Fairest of them All
  • Crafty Soul
Okay, the memory thing makes sense. Good. But then, Sora and Riku travel through time bodily with zero explanation as to how, despite that it's a blatant contradiction of the time travel rules?
Or maybe it isn't? Some people understand the"must leave your body behind" criteria as, "at some point in your life, your heart needs to get kicked out of your body somehow." I mean, all of the Norts are physically present in the throne room (which is both in the present and the RoL), enough to tackle, kick, or teleport-spam in a fight. You generally need a body to do stuff like that.
 

Audo

press △ to sora
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
5,367
Age
27
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Key of Destiny
  • O, Purest of Hearts
  • Savage Nymph
  • Graceful Assassin
  • Come So Far
But then, Sora and Riku travel through time bodily with zero explanation as to how, despite that it's a blatant contradiction of the time travel rules?
Well, not necessarily. In interviews Nomura makes the distinction that in order to time travel you must first discard the body (MX actually gains the ability at the end of BBS, not as Ansem). It's then implied that once you have the ability you never lose it. The ability is also transferrable seeing as how Ansem merely interacting with YMX gave YMX, a complete being, the ability to time travel. Sora and Riku have both been in states of being only a heart, meaning they both have the ability to time travel even when later becoming complete. So, things match up well enough.

The only thing that really stands out is Yen Sid's comment, but again, he was referring to how people can't transport their body to a place in time they weren't originally.

And, if I'm getting this correctly, bodily sleep has nothing to do with entering the Sleeping Worlds, yes? It's just the worlds that are trapped in sleep, and the characters don't have to fall asleep to access them, but rather they have to travel back in time to the point where a world is in the process of falling into sleep and then stay on it as it plunges into sleep, and then enter the Sleeping Worlds through the keyhole? All the while still being fully awake in bodily form? Right???
Well once being in the RoS you can likely say that they are in a state of sleep as well. After all, Riku was in "Sora's Dream" the whole game which meant Sora was in some state of sleep during that.
 
Last edited:

Nazo

Hope Remains
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
4,773
Location
United States
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • NieR: Automata
  • Keyblade Champion
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5+2.5 ReMIX
  • The Foreteller
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue
Hmmm. Okay, good, this is all making sense. I did wonder about how YX was able to travel through time just by making contact with Ansem, since he was still a complete being. So, once you have discarded your body at some point in time, you gain the ability to travel through time. And the memory erasure thing only occurs if you travel back in time, lend your time travel powers to your younger self, and send them forward into the present, and when they return to their proper place in time, all memories of the future self's time is erased, but remains etched into their heart. Alright, that's 2/2.

And then, going off of that, one does not access the Sleeping Worlds by physically falling asleep, but by entering into a world that has fallen into sleep via time travel and getting plunged into the state of sleep while on the world, and then accessing the Sleeping Worlds via the world's keyhole, which becomes a Sleeping Keyhole upon plunging into sleep.

So then that only leaves the question of where physical sleep comes into play, because we know Riku dives into Sora's dreams. So, when exactly does Sora fall asleep physically, but how is Riku in his dreams if Sora is still doing his own thing in physical form?
 

Audo

press △ to sora
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
5,367
Age
27
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Key of Destiny
  • O, Purest of Hearts
  • Savage Nymph
  • Graceful Assassin
  • Come So Far
And the memory erasure thing only occurs if you travel back in time, lend your time travel powers to your younger self, and send them forward into the present, and when they return to their proper place in time, all memories of the future self's time is erased, but remains etched into their heart.
Uh, more simply, memory erasure only happens if you move forward through time. If anyone moves forward through time. If Sora and Riku moved forward through time, they would eventually have to return to their own time and would lose their memories of the time travel events.

http://forums.khinsider.com/dream-drop-distance/207012-rules-restrictions-time-travel.html

by entering into a world that has fallen into sleep via time travel and getting plunged into the state of sleep while on the world
In this case they used time travel, but it's not a requirement. Normally you can only access the Realm of Sleep by being on a world when it falls into sleep. If Sora and Riku let a world fall to darkness in the present day they could still enter the RoS that way. Time travel isn't a requirement it was just how Sora and Riku were able to do it since there were no worlds actively being destroyed in the present day.

Now that they have opened the Sleeping Keyholes however, Sora and Riku have the ability to open passages into the Realm of Sleep without needing the world to fall asleep on its own. We see this in the ending.

and then accessing the Sleeping Worlds via the world's keyhole, which becomes a Sleeping Keyhole upon plunging into sleep.
The world's keyhole does not turn into a Sleeping Keyhole. There just exists a Sleeping Keyhole upon descent into sleep.

So, when exactly does Sora fall asleep physically, but how is Riku in his dreams if Sora is still doing his own thing in physical form?
Like I said, I think almost everything in the Realm of Sleep can be said to exist in some state of sleep. Like, upon entering, Sora and Riku were both in a state of sleep.
 

Nazo

Hope Remains
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
4,773
Location
United States
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • NieR: Automata
  • Keyblade Champion
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5+2.5 ReMIX
  • The Foreteller
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue
Uh, more simply, memory erasure only happens if you move forward through time. If anyone moves forward through time. If Sora and Riku moved forward through time, they would eventually have to return to their own time and would lose their memories of the time travel events.

http://forums.khinsider.com/dream-drop-distance/207012-rules-restrictions-time-travel.html
Right, but you can't move forward in time, up to a certain point. You can't travel to the future if it hasn't happened yet. DDD Sora and Riku can't travel any further forward, because that's as far as time as gone. Even Xehanort says the future is beyond his sight, otherwise he could just jump into the future and see what all is going on.


In this case they used time travel, but it's not a requirement. Normally you can only access the Realm of Sleep by being on a world when it falls into sleep. If Sora and Riku let a world fall to darkness in the present day they could still enter the RoS that way. Time travel isn't a requirement it was just how Sora and Riku were able to do it since there were no worlds actively being destroyed in the present day.

Now that they have opened the Sleeping Keyholes however, Sora and Riku have the ability to open passages into the Realm of Sleep without needing the world to fall asleep on its own. We see this in the ending.
All good points, and I'm sure that will play a role in KH3.


The world's keyhole does not turn into a Sleeping Keyhole. There just exists a Sleeping Keyhole upon descent into sleep.
Oh, okay. So, Sleeping Keyhole is different from world keyhole. One wakes the world up, the other is the access to the world's heart. Gotcha.


Like I said, I think almost everything in the Realm of Sleep can be said to exist in some state of sleep. Like, upon entering, Sora and Riku were both in a state of sleep.
So, they're fully awake in bodily form, but because it's the Realm of Sleep, everything is in some kind of magical waking sleep-like state? Which means Sora is dreaming even though he's awake, which is where Riku is, who is also awake and in bodily form.

Ultimate suspension of disbelief, I guess.
 
Top