Some questions on The Grid



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BlackOsprey

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I remembered this mostly because I started up DDD in 2.8, but this question has been nagging me since 2012.

We're all aware of DDD's basic premise: Sora and Riku go into the Realm of Sleep for a test. As the name implies, all the worlds in the RoS are asleep; what the protagonists are running around in are dreams projected by the memories of a sleeping heart. In Sora's case, he's running around in the dreams of a world's heart.

Well, eventually, Sora arrives in the Grid. Like Space Paranoids and its movie equivalent, The Grid is a world within a world (Sam mentions escaping to the outside world to get rid of CLU), made up of data and programming. There're Dream Eaters everywhere, and there's even a Sleeping Keyhole to unlock, just like all the sleeping worlds. Only when Xemnas shows up, he says this:

In a digital world... nothing is ever felt. You can hold a thousand, a million times the information, but there is still no heart with which to parse it.
Young Xehanort soon adds to this:

You think this is the realm of dreams, but there, you are mistaken. Data does not dream, cannot dream. This world is real.
What these two are saying is that The Grid, being a world made of data, does not have a heart. And by lacking a heart, it also cannot dream, which means The Grid, as Sora experiences it, is real, and not a part of the Realm of Sleep, despite the hordes of Dream Eaters and the presence of a Sleeping Keyhole.

Just... how?? Why are all those RoS things present in a supposedly real world, and if it's not in the Realm of Sleep, how the heck did Sora randomly leave a realm? Travel to and from realms tends to require some serious magical help/deus ex machina and a person can't just "wander" in and out of them.

The only feasible explanation I can think of is that when the "outside world" of the Grid fell to darkness, the Grid fell with it into the Realm of Sleep, still moving forward in time despite the Dream Eater infestation. But then, why would the Sleeping Keyhole be located HERE instead of the actual sleeping outside world? ... And on a bit of a tangent, what would happen to any Grid inhabitants that leave the data world and enter the sleeping outside world? Would they just collapse and sleep until that world is awakened too?

Or maybe it's just a load of lies meant to confuse and discourage Sora. We've all seen data grow a heart and basically forge its own Keyblade, maybe it IS possible for data to dream as well.

I dunno. After all these years, I'm not sure what to think of this. Any thoughts?
 

Sephiroth0812

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Or maybe it's just a load of lies meant to confuse and discourage Sora. We've all seen data grow a heart and basically forge its own Keyblade, maybe it IS possible for data to dream as well.
To be honest that's the explanation I always went with, lol.
Coded and partly even Space Paranoids in KH 2 already show that there is more to it than what Xemnas and Young Xehanort claim here.

What one might perhaps also take into account is that maybe Xemnas and YMX are not actually deliberately lying but simply don't know better, or as Ansem the Wise said:
Xehanort. Foolish apprentice of a foolish man. You have surpassed nothing---only proved how little we both know. We may profess to know the heart, but its essence is beyond our reach. We're both ignorant---as oblivious as when we began.
If there's one thing that has been shown consistently throughout the series it is that Xehanort underestimates the true capababilities and powers of the heart and ignorantly only believes in his own interpretations, a stark contrast to the changed stance of Ansem the Wise who admits his former ignorance.
 

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honestly, i had just taken it to mean that Sora was not in the dream of the world, but in the actual world. Which is, to say, that the world was indeed in the Realm of Sleep, but it could not dream, and so everything Sora was doing would actually affect the world in a way that his previous journey did not (because they were primarily dreams).

In Prankster's Paradise, Sora comes to the realization that nothing he does can fix the world because what he's living through is just a dream -- the characters aren't really there and their stories and troubles will just endlessly loop -- until he brings the world out of the RoS. So then when he enters The Grid, YMX is basically saying, "This isn't a dream. Everything you do here will actually affect the people who are here" and this is why Sora is so impassioned to try and save Tron.

That's how I took it anyway.
 

Sephiroth0812

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honestly, i had just taken it to mean that Sora was not in the dream of the world, but in the actual world. Which is, to say, that the world was indeed in the Realm of Sleep, but it could not dream, and so everything Sora was doing would actually affect the world in a way that his previous journey did not (because they were primarily dreams).

In Prankster's Paradise, Sora comes to the realization that nothing he does can fix the world because what he's living through is just a dream -- the characters aren't really there and their stories and troubles will just endlessly loop -- until he brings the world out of the RoS. So then when he enters The Grid, YMX is basically saying, "This isn't a dream. Everything you do here will actually affect the people who are here" and this is why Sora is so impassioned to try and save Tron.

That's how I took it anyway.
That's actually quite an interesting interpretation too, although in this case the question remains what would be the result of Quorra and Sam leaving the "awake" part of the digital Grid and arriving at the "sleeping" carbon-based/biological part of the world.
 

Rydgea

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Would that still technically be apart of the Grid, though? Also, why would the carbon-based world have to be asleep?
 

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The Grid is its own world just because it was consumed by darkness doesn't mean the world it was in was. I mean think of Pooh its world has nearly been swallowed by darkness twice but neither time were RG nor Traverse Town in danger of the same. However I will point out that DDD rather deliberately avoided a plot of the real Sam and Quorra leaving the world, we see Sora's imagining of it in his dream where Riku experiences it. But for all we know Sam and Quorra never escape until the world was released from slumber, thus the imagination is up to us. Worst comes to worse they probably just wound up in a Traverse Town until their world was released.
 

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What I understood was that Xehanort was referring to data possessing no consciousness or that of A.I being a written algorithm giving a different definition to the form in which it "sleeps" and establishing that it does not dream. Meaning that The Grid had fallen into the RoS by having been deleted and hence in its actual physical form.

Though, while this validly rationalizes how Sora's actions in The Grid unlike in the other worlds in the RoS would effect its existence, to deduct that data/A.I can not possess a heart because it is not a lifeform is clearly a flaw in Xehanort's beliefs.
KHI established that a marionette can possess a heart hence the concept is more complex than what one is made of.

One could argue that because Pinocchio was carved from wood which comes from a tree, he qualifies as carbon-based, however, the Tron: Legacy film portrayed the ISOs or isomorphic algorithms as being meant for a life changing purpose in the human world and Quorra and Clue as having an extent of free-will.
Quorra and the ISOs are referred to by Kevin Flynn as "The Miracle" because he designed them with the belief that he could translate their code to digital human DNA to revolutionize gene therapy studies used to search for cures to diseases such as cancer.
Quorra herself had a unique passion for humanity and the ability to see potential in programs beyond what was written in their code.
Clu could interact with the human world and deceive (it was he who'd lured Sam into The Grid with a text designed to appear to be from his long-lost father).

This seems to be what defines the ability to possess a heart, passion and a connection to life.

As to the question of how leaving the data world would effect Quorra, the film subtly suggests the answer to that but a post I found elsewhere words it better than I could:

Though it's never actually mentioned in the movie, and is only shown on screen for a matter of seconds, there are actually tanks behind the laser assembly in the arcade basement. The writers have stated that those tanks contain things like water and carbon -- IOW, the building blocks for organic life. The premise -- admittedly farfetched -- is that the laser breaks down the matter, stores the pattern in the computer, and then can play it back out, reincorporating the organic materials in the correct order to rebuild the object/person.


Source:
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/49505/in-tron-legacy-how-could-quorra-help-the-human-race

Basically, the same way the Flynns and Sora and Co. were digitized to be incorporated into The Grid, Quorra would theoretically receive the opposite process, the one Flynn developed to translate ISO code to digital human DNA. I don't believe she'd actually become human but would possess enough of the properties of the human form to stabilize her existence in the carbon world.
 
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Elfdemon

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The Grid is on a computer in a world that we don't know the name of. The world Sam Flynn is from. Just like how Space Paranoids is on a computer in Radiant Garden. Ansem the Wise went to this world and copied The Grid (it was most likely called Space Paranoids previously), and brought it to Radiant Garden for research purposes.

The world that the computer that has The Grid in it, is sleeping. The world Sam Flynn is from. So, even though data can't dream, it still has Dream Eaters and stuff in it because the world The Grid is attached to is sleeping. The whole "data cannot dream" thing isn't really an important detail. They made it seem important (probably to confuse Sora), but all it really means is that The Grid isn't the true world that's dreaming.
 
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