Some Kingdom Hearts-related linguistic curiosity

[Igshar]

The idea of her being created from/by the Body and not being the Body itself always confuses me when I try to work it out, likely because of how Namine is supposedly created from absolutely nothing. >>;

Also in Secret Ansem Report 12, it states

It would seem Roxas is much like Naminé. Naminé is Kairi's Nobody, but came into being via Sora's body and soul.

Likewise, Roxas is Sora's Nobody, but was left behind because Sora's Heartless regained human form using Kairi's heart instead of his own.

implying that Roxas, too, had nothing of Sora in him, with the exception of Sora's Memories as we later find out. My original point of Sora becoming whole after Kairi's intervention still holds, though. :\

I do think, though, that Ansem's views on all of this are slightly skewed, due to his seeming lack of knowledge about the Ven-Sora relation, else he'd mention something of that in his reports. Without knowing that, he could simply be assuming all of this and be completely wrong in it all. I doubt he actually ran a test to see that Namine was created from nothing.

Going by what Ansem said as being factual and true, though, it holds that Sora is complete all the way through CoM, only missing Memories, and that Roxas and Namine are both anomalies in that the Body and Soul they both should have come from belongs to and rests with Sora.

 

[Smile]

It would seem Roxas is much like Naminé. Naminé is Kairi's Nobody, but came into being via Sora's body and soul.

Read: Namine is Kairi's Nobody, but came from Sora. The main issue here isn't what she's made up of, but where she came from.

Likewise, Roxas is Sora's Nobody, but was left behind because Sora's Heartless regained human form using Kairi's heart instead of his own.

Read: The issue here is that Roxas is a Nobody without a Heartless.

I'd sooner tie the "relation" and "similarity" between Roxas and Namine and how they're special Nobodies to there being no "matching Heartless" - Kairi never created one and Sora was purified. Ties in actually nicely with Nomura telling us Xemnas is a special Nobody as well - his Heartless wasn't a proper Heartless either.

 

[Khfan01]

Well, I am Japanese. Yes, kokoro is meaning heart. Tamashi means soul and it also if well a person turns into a ghost and become a lost soul.

 

[Ikkin]

implying that Roxas, too, had nothing of Sora in him, with the exception of Sora's Memories as we later find out. My original point of Sora becoming whole after Kairi's intervention still holds, though. :\

358/2 Days causes a slight problem with this idea:
[i]Xion[/i] was the one who took Sora's memories, not Roxas. Which means that, if Xion had been returned to Sora directly, rather than becoming part of Roxas first, Roxas wouldn't have needed to rejoin with Sora at all for Sora to be complete.

However, it's made very clear that Roxas needs to return to Sora as well, considering the fact that Xion probably would have tried to find a way to return to Sora without involving Roxas if Sora's memories were the only thing necessary to complete him.

Well, I am Japanese. Yes, kokoro is meaning heart. Tamashi means soul and it also if well a person turns into a ghost and become a lost soul.

Well, the thing is, I'm more interested in the nuances than the generalities. Conceptual words have so many different layers of meaning that I can't imagine they're all the same.

 

[Igshar]

358/2 Days causes a slight problem with this idea:
[i]Xion[/i] was the one who took Sora's memories, not Roxas. Which means that, if Xion had been returned to Sora directly, rather than becoming part of Roxas first, Roxas wouldn't have needed to rejoin with Sora at all for Sora to be complete.

However, it's made very clear that Roxas needs to return to Sora as well, considering the fact that Xion probably would have tried to find a way to return to Sora without involving Roxas if Sora's memories were the only thing necessary to complete him.

No...Xion was syphoning Roxas' powers throughout Days, stealing the memories which filtered into him from Sora. Roxas' existence was the primary reason for being unable to revive Sora quickly. Xion simply exacerbated the circumstances. Roxas sapped memories from Sora and Xion sapped memories from Roxas, because they were memories from Sora.

Most of what Xion had she stole from [B]Roxas[/B], indirectly from Sora. That's why, when she dies in the end, most of what she is returns to Roxas rather than Sora, as that's where she had taken it from. I'm pretty sure it was said in-game that Sora's Memories were being syphoned by Roxas primarily, Xion secondarily.


Going by your ideas of it instead, though, I'd like to point out that DiZ never really expressed a need to get Roxas back until after Xion was defeated and absorbed by Roxas. Riku goes after Xion the first time and only ever attacks Roxas at the very end, after Xion's been absorbed. Prior to that, he doesn't interfere in Roxas' daily affairs whatsoever, going so far as to even [I]run away[/I] from him on at least two occasions rather than taking him down to drag him back to DiZ.

 

[Ikkin]

Xion was syphoning Roxas' powers throughout Days, stealing the memories which filtered into him from Sora. Roxas' existence was the primary reason for being unable to revive Sora quickly. Xion simply exacerbated the circumstances. Roxas sapped memories from Sora and Xion sapped memories from Roxas, because they were memories from Sora.

Most of what Xion had she stole from [B]Roxas[/B], indirectly from Sora. That's why, when she dies in the end, most of what she is returns to Roxas rather than Sora, as that's where she had taken it from. I'm pretty sure it was said in-game that Sora's Memories were being syphoned by Roxas primarily, Xion secondarily.

Xion was taking Sora's memories [i]through[/i] Roxas, true, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he still would have been taking those memories if she wasn't around.

Though, the end result is still that Roxas had some of Sora's memories before fusing with Xion, so I guess that might not have been the best way to show that he had Sora's body.

So, I'll try this again:

If Roxas doesn't have Sora's body, why would Sora's memory transfer over to him when Namine doesn't have any memories transferred over to her Kairi? Assuming Roxas has Sora's body, it's easy enough to assume that Sora is especially susceptible to losing memories because of that. But, if Roxas [i]doesn't[/i] have Sora's body, that means two things - Sora's losing memories despite having a body, and the body isn't the determining factor in where the memories go. Which means, of course, that Namine ought to be sucking up Kairi's unchained Sora memories.

Going by your ideas of it instead, though, I'd like to point out that DiZ never really expressed a need to get Roxas back until after Xion was defeated and absorbed by Roxas. Riku goes after Xion the first time and only ever attacks Roxas at the very end, after Xion's been absorbed. Prior to that, he doesn't interfere in Roxas' daily affairs whatsoever, going so far as to even [I]run away[/I] from him on at least two occasions rather than taking him down to drag him back to DiZ.

DiZ doesn't know anything. Namine does. And the first thing she tells Riku about Roxas and Xion is that they [i]both[/i] have to "go away."

Riku didn't attack Roxas before then because he was having trouble believing Sora could have a Nobody.

 

[Igshar]

Xion was taking Sora's memories [i]through[/i] Roxas, true, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he still would have been taking those memories if she wasn't around.

Though, the end result is still that Roxas had some of Sora's memories before fusing with Xion, so I guess that might not have been the best way to show that he had Sora's body.

So, I'll try this again:

If Roxas doesn't have Sora's body, why would Sora's memory transfer over to him when Namine doesn't have any memories transferred over to her Kairi? Assuming Roxas has Sora's body, it's easy enough to assume that Sora is especially susceptible to losing memories because of that. But, if Roxas [i]doesn't[/i] have Sora's body, that means two things - Sora's losing memories despite having a body, and the body isn't the determining factor in where the memories go. Which means, of course, that Namine ought to be sucking up Kairi's unchained Sora memories.

There's nothing at all to say that
Xion was the reason that Roxas was taking Sora's Memories
I also never said that Roxas would not have to be absorbed. I simply said he did not directly have anything of Sora's aside from his Memories. Sora was whole, not complete. He had his Body, Soul, and Heart, but he lacked many of his most important Memories.

Now, I'll throw that out to talk on Roxas having Sora's Body. I honestly do not believe that Roxas has Sora's Body in the least, but rather he has Ventus' (see: Ventus and Roxas similarities) and that Sora indeed returned to his body with the aid of Kairi's Heart. The Ventus factor we all know must exist with Roxas could extend further than the possibility of him having Ventus' Heart (if he does, of course). This would also explain howXion picks up Memories of Ventus, allowing her to appear as Ventus to Xigbar, since she grabs Sora's Memories through Roxas, so it's possible she took some of Roxas' actual memories, which would likely relate to Ventus.
If this is true, the connection which would be drawn between Sora and Ventus would easily allow and likely contribute to the Memory flow from Sora into Roxas.


This is also all assuming Roxas is even a Nobody and not something crazy (and nonsensical) like Ventus' Heartless.

DiZ doesn't know anything. Namine does. And the first thing she tells Riku about Roxas and Xion is that they [i]both[/i] have to "go away."

Riku didn't attack Roxas before then because he was having trouble believing Sora could have a Nobody.

Namine knows about Memories, true, which is precisely why she says BOTH Roxas and Xion need to be taken care of. If Xion was causing the Memory spilling into Roxas, taking her out would be enough, because then Namine would likely be able to piece back the memories Roxas had within him to Sora or, possibly, the system would simply reverse itself with the siphon out of the picture, causing the stolen Memories to flood back from Roxas into Sora. Because Roxas absorbs the Memories from Sora as well, he needs to be taken out. :\

>>; This has gotten massively off-topic...