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So...why does Roxas/Ven look like Sora. I might be missing something.



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Oracle Spockanort

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Your post lacks severe amounts of KH logic and FAR too much real world logic.
Therefore that senence is fail.




Applying BBS logic to a KH1 situation. Kinda not logical don't you think?



Well CoM begs to differ.

Are you serious or are you trolling?

Can you actually explain your reasons for refuting Sephiroth's logic? Because everything he said is pretty much on point.
 

Chuman

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Are you serious or are you trolling?

Can you actually explain your reasons for refuting Sephiroth's logic? Because everything he said is pretty much on point.

I agree, whats his deal, anyway? We need to feed him more Kingdom Hearts Logic! Lots and lots of it!
 

Box_ghost

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How exactly? When Roxas went to Castle Oblivion, he fainted because he was near his two "Others", so their Hearts did resonate somewhat.

Well not the reasonating part. It did, but Roxas had Ven's and a portion of Sora's.

Are you serious or are you trolling?

Who do I look like Yannis? Seriously, can nobody tell 'm being serious?

Can you actually explain your reasons for refuting Sephiroth's logic? Because everything he said is pretty much on point.

Yeas, but by completely denying what was in CoM. I do not disagree that the hearts reasonated.
He's saying that because they coexisted is why they 'reasonated'
That is not the only reason why.

My point was that Roxas has not only Ven's heart, but a portion of Sora's. And CoM backs this claim up.

I agree, whats his deal, anyway? We need to feed him more Kingdom Hearts Logic! Lots and lots of it!

I was eating KH logic back when it wasn't convoluted and everything made sense.
 

Chuman

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Well not the reasonating part. It did, but Roxas had Ven's and a portion of Sora's.



Who do I look like Yannis? Seriously, can nobody tell 'm being serious?



Yeas, but by completely denying what was in CoM. I do not disagree that the hearts reasonated.
He's saying that because they coexisted is why they 'reasonated'
That is not the only reason why.

My point was that Roxas has not only Ven's heart, but a portion of Sora's. And CoM backs this claim up.



I was eating KH logic back when it wasn't convoluted and everything made sense.

Kingdom Hearts always makes sense! I can understand it perfectly! And it was always convoluted, where have you been?
 

Sephiroth0812

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Box_ghost said:
Your post lacks severe amounts of KH logic and FAR too much real world logic.
Therefore that senence is fail.
Excuse me if I lol about this, but Luap911 said "People can coincidentally look similar; it's a common thing." which is perfectly true, not every similar looking persons have some special meaning or bond behind their similar looks, even in KH, as it would become too predictable.
Riku for example is not related in any way to Sephiroth just because they have similar hair and eyes.

Applying BBS logic to a KH1 situation. Kinda not logical don't you think?
LMAO...now that's getting a tad ridiculous. Are you trying to tell me the laws how the universe of KH works suddenly change from BBS to KH1?
Sora never had his heart split and therefore Roxas never could have a part of it. That's pure nonsense even in the broad sense of the laws of KH.
Sora's full heart became a heartless and got purfied by Kairi, making it a walking heart.

BBS logic, Days logic, KH 2 logic, Coded logic, CoM logic all apply to KH 1 situations as will also KH 3D logic when it's released. KH 1 isn't a stand-alone title and also does not have a special pedestal that allows it to ignore the other entries of the series. The universe gets expanded with every new installment and if we get new information on background events of course they apply to KH 1 situations.

My point was that Roxas has not only Ven's heart, but a portion of Sora's. And CoM backs this claim up.
Now that's funny, you tell me not to apply BBS logic to KH 1, yet you're doing the same here by claiming Roxas had a part of Sora's heart.
Until BBS we didn't even know that hearts can be split, as BBS was the first entry to elaborate on this issue.

You say CoM somehow backs this up, yet you don't give away the cutscene/conversation that supposedly backs it up...
If you mean Vexen's statement of drawing Twilight Town from "the other side" of Sora's heart, this only means that some of Roxas's memories got into Sora's heart through their connection.
It's elaborated on further in Days, when Naminé started meddling around with Sora's memories this affected also Roxas and enabled "memory fluctuation" between Roxas and Sora.
That's also why Roxas started to have glimpses of Sora's memories and is also one reason he so badly needed to rejoin with Sora: Because he held some memories of Sora, and later on even the memories which were stolen/absorbed by Xion came added on top too.

It were also not hearts resonating, the plural is false here. There's only one heart in the question, Sora's, as Ven's is crippled and not really functional.
 

Box_ghost

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Kingdom Hearts always makes sense! I can understand it perfectly! And it was always convoluted, where have you been?

[facepalm] Yeah, y'know.....just.....no.

Excuse me if I lol about this, but Luap911 said "People can coincidentally look similar; it's a common thing." which is perfectly true, not every similar looking persons have some special meaning or bond behind their similar looks, even in KH, as it would become too predictable.
Riku for example is not related in any way to Sephiroth just because they have similar hair and eyes.

That's different.
1. Sephiroth is a cameo and has no real importance in the KH series. FF characters basically exist for the sake of being there.
2. When I said people who look alike with good reason doesn't apply to characters that existed previously to KH.
3. Riku and Sephiroth look nothing alike. They have the same color hair and eyes. Beyond that and you're reaching.
4. In the KH Universe, KH logic >>> Real world logic.
5. If anyone looks like Sephiroth, its YX, but that's only because of how he's rendered. Characters look different in artwork than they do in game.


LMAO...now that's getting a tad ridiculous. Are you trying to tell me the laws how the universe of KH works suddenly change from BBS to KH1?

In a sort of 'they didn't think of it yet' kinda way, yeah.
Like the whole Ven/Sora thing. People are trying to say that a heart doesn't influence what you look like, when this has been true since KH1.

It's the opposite of this case but yes.

Sora never had his heart split and therefore Roxas never could have a part of it. That's pure nonsense even in the broad sense of the laws of KH.
Sora's full heart became a heartless and got purfied by Kairi, making it a walking heart.

And it makes more sense that Vanitas looks like Sora?

BBS logic, Days logic, KH 2 logic, Coded logic, CoM logic all apply to KH 1 situations as will also KH 3D logic when it's released. KH 1 isn't a stand-alone title and also does not have a special pedestal that allows it to ignore the other entries of the series. The universe gets expanded with every new installment and if we get new information on background events of course they apply to KH 1 situations.

If by expanding, you mean retcon, then yes; expanding.

Now that's funny, you tell me not to apply BBS logic to KH 1, yet you're doing the same here by claiming Roxas had a part of Sora's heart.
Until BBS we didn't even know that hearts can be split, as BBS was the first entry to elaborate on this issue.

What? Repliku's heart was shattered and he still walked around like it was nothing.

You say CoM somehow backs this up, yet you don't give away the cutscene/conversation that supposedly backs it up...
If you mean Vexen's statement of drawing Twilight Town from "the other side" of Sora's heart, this only means that some of Roxas's memories got into Sora's heart through their connection.
It's elaborated on further in Days, when Naminé started meddling around with Sora's memories this affected also Roxas and enabled "memory fluctuation" between Roxas and Sora.
That's also why Roxas started to have glimpses of Sora's memories and is also one reason he so badly needed to rejoin with Sora: Because he held some memories of Sora, and later on even the memories which were stolen/absorbed by Xion came added on top too.

Uh duh, the hearts are connected, I'm not saying that they aren't.
The fact that there is an 'other side' of Sora's heart means that they are separated. Were they together, Vexen would have said 'from your heart' or 'the connections in your heart'. Both of which reinforce the connection.

It were also not hearts resonating, the plural is false here. There's only one heart in the question, Sora's, as Ven's is crippled and not really functional.

If that's the case, Roxas' so called heart shouldn't have anything to rely on to be function, and yet, there he was, crying. And that is the case
 

Sephiroth0812

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Box_ghost said:
In a sort of 'they didn't think of it yet' kinda way, yeah.
Like the whole Ven/Sora thing. People are trying to say that a heart doesn't influence what you look like, when this has been true since KH1.

It's the opposite of this case but yes.

What the heck is 'they didn't think of it yet'?
They did think about it.. It was explained in BBS that a split heart can't function properly, so Sora's heart cannot have been split in KH 1, he only lost it to darkness because of the dark keyblade and Ven's sleeping heart remained in his body, giving Roxas his looks.

And it makes more sense that Vanitas looks like Sora?
It makes actually 100x more sense than saying Roxas has a part of Sora's heart.
I suppose you know why Vanitas looks like this, do you?

If by expanding, you mean retcon, then yes; expanding.

Retcon? What retcon?

What? Repliku's heart was shattered and he still walked around like it was nothing.

You still don't get that there's a fundamental difference?
Replikus heart got stripped of all memories and therefore collapsed, it was not torn into pieces like Ven's heart was.

Uh duh, the hearts are connected, I'm not saying that they aren't.
The fact that there is an 'other side' of Sora's heart means that they are separated. Were they together, Vexen would have said 'from your heart' or 'the connections in your heart'. Both of which reinforce the connection.

Which hearts? Ven's and Sora's? Yeah, they're connected ever since Sora was born, but this has nothing to to with Sora's and Roxas's connection.

Now don't get that the wrong way, but that second sentence is just stupid. If I say "I know the other side of a coin" this does by no means mean there's any separation and the other side is somewhere else, as both sides are still together.
The "other side" of Sora's heart is the part were all the memories lie which Sora can't access, Vexen created that card out of Sora's heart, which was standing right before him. These memories flowed into Sora's heart from Roxas and could then be read out by Vexen. That's by no means proof of that Sora didn't have his full heart at his disposal.

If that's the case, Roxas' so called heart shouldn't have anything to rely on to be function, and yet, there he was, crying. And that is the case
Roxas doesn't have a heart literally, he is just carrying a sleeping one which allows him to siphon emotions from it. Ven's heart is asleep because it can't function properly, that's also why no one can sense it.
 

Box_ghost

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What the heck is 'they didn't think of it yet'?
They did think about it.. It was explained in BBS that a split heart can't function properly, so Sora's heart cannot have been split in KH 1, he only lost it to darkness because of the dark keyblade and Ven's sleeping heart remained in his body, giving Roxas his looks.

Nooo, I mean the heart splitting thing. BBS wasn't even thought of in 2002.

It makes actually 100x more sense than saying Roxas has a part of Sora's heart.

Not really.

Retcon? What retcon?

You know the one.


You still don't get that there's a fundamental difference?
Replikus heart got stripped of all memories and therefore collapsed, it was not torn into pieces like Ven's heart was.

The example is valid.

Now don't get that the wrong way, but that second sentence is just stupid

And yet I hold my tongue.

If I say "I know the other side of a coin" this does by no means mean there's any separation and the other side is somewhere else, as both sides are still together.

A coin and a heart are different. I knew you were going to use a coin as a weak ass example.
That's like saying 'I couldn't find a porpoise, so I'll just use this shark as an example of such'

The "other side" of Sora's heart is the part were all the memories lie which Sora can't access

And unless there is a canon reason why, its fanfiction.

Vexen created that card out of Sora's heart, which was standing right before him. These memories flowed into Sora's heart from Roxas and could then be read out by Vexen. That's by no means proof of that Sora didn't have his full heart at his disposal.

In 2004, that was Square saying 'this kid has a part of Sora's heart'
Were Ven to not exist, you'd have no other doubt in your mind.

Roxas doesn't have a heart literally

And that's very counteractive to the bullshit Square's been spouting since 07.

he is just carrying a sleeping one which allows him to siphon emotions from it.

A non functionig heart is functioning?
 

Sephiroth0812

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Nooo, I mean the heart splitting thing. BBS wasn't even thought of in 2002.

If it wasn't thought of in 2002 is completely irrelevant, it is thought of now, part of the series and therefore fact.
Going by that point CoM was also not thought of in 2002, and by the time CoM was released Roxas didn't even exist due to your logic.

Not really.
Oh yes, it does.
But I'm too tired now to explain it again.

You know the one.

The heartless one? Lol, that's no retcon at all.

The example is valid.

It is not just because you say so.
The circumstances and what exactly was done to that heart were vastly different.

A coin and a heart are different. I knew you were going to use a coin as a weak ass example.
That's like saying 'I couldn't find a porpoise, so I'll just use this shark as an example of such'

It doesn't matter what metaphor is used, Coin, Apple, hand, heart, brain or whatever.
Fact is that the "other side" of something is always the side one can't see or isn't aware of, not something that is somewhere else.
If Roxas would have a part of Sora's heart, that part would have an "other side" too, as would have the part that remains with Sora.

And unless there is a canon reason why, its fanfiction.

Your perspective is fanfiction.

In 2004, that was Square saying 'this kid has a part of Sora's heart'
Were Ven to not exist, you'd have no other doubt in your mind.

"Square" did never say anything like that, this is a flat out lie.
And unless I see it in written out words in official material I won't go back on that.

And that's very counteractive to the bullshit Square's been spouting since 07.

Not really if you would pay attention to the nuances. Roxas is carrying a heart, yes, he can sap emotions from it, yes, but neither is it his heart nor is this heart fully functional.

A non functionig heart is functioning?

The heart isn't actively doing something, as it's still crippled.
 

Box_ghost

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If it wasn't thought of in 2002 is completely irrelevant, it is thought of now, part of the series and therefore fact.
Going by that point CoM was also not thought of in 2002, and by the time CoM was released Roxas didn't even exist due to your logic.

My argument is based on intent.
And Roxas, albeit unnamed to the public, did exist by the time of CoM's release.

The heartless one? Lol, that's no retcon at all.

And if KH2 and CoM was never made, that 'it's not a retcon' argument would not be happening.

It doesn't matter what metaphor is used, Coin, Apple, hand, heart, brain or whatever.

It does if a coin is a flat piece of metal whereas a heart is an intangeable orb of light.
Your argument on that was literally based on the nature of a flat coin.

Fact is that the "other side" of something is always the side one can't see or isn't aware of, not something that is somewhere else.
If Roxas would have a part of Sora's heart, that part would have an "other side" too, as would have the part that remains with Sora.

The 'other side' of Roxas' is the part thay stayed with Sora.

Your perspective is fanfiction.

Elaborate

"Square" did never say anything like that, this is a flat out lie.

>:-[
I'm going to punch my monitor and somehow, you'll feel it in your kidney.

Not really if you would pay attention to the nuances. Roxas is carrying a heart, yes, he can sap emotions from it, yes, but neither is it his heart nor is this heart fully functional.

In game points elsewhere.

The heart isn't actively doing something, as it's still crippled.

Non functioning heart is funtioning.
 

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If Vanitas would had ventus face in the beginning itta probably would be something like this:

2nvm03.png

lol I know my amazing skill sucks.
 

Magnus

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Since Roxas not only looks like Ven, but has his heart too... wouldn't this more or less make him Ven? Or do hearts lose their memory when separated from their original bodies?

Also, does this mean that Roxas will lose his heart and become a regular nobody at the end of Sora's journey when he, most likely, will find and rescue Ven and the others? Do you think Roxas will change his appearence if this happens?
 

Sephiroth0812

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Since Roxas not only looks like Ven, but has his heart too... wouldn't this more or less make him Ven? Or do hearts lose their memory when separated from their original bodies?

Also, does this mean that Roxas will lose his heart and become a regular nobody at the end of Sora's journey when he, most likely, will find and rescue Ven and the others? Do you think Roxas will change his appearence if this happens?

Nope, Roxas and Ven are still completely different people. Roxas looks like Ven because he has Ven's heart inside him, as it reshaped Sora's body to look like Ven.
If he had not he would have looked more like Sora.
While Roxas has Ven's heart while independent (it normally rests inside Sora's heart), it is still injured and largely inactive, so Roxas practically just carried it around. Roxas gains access to actual emotions because of it and can later wield Ven's keyblade (his second one).

Still, Roxas creates his own memories and therefore becomes an own person who just happens to look like Ven's twin (appearance-wise, he's still Sora's nobody).

Roxas appearance most likely will not change, or just to a slight degree. As it was never his heart to begin with there's nothing he can loose.
His appearance his based on the memories how he himself remembers it and these memories, along with all others that still define Roxas, are within Sora's heart.
There's a reason they're both depicted separate from one another in Blank Points ;).
 

Magnus

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But what about my other question. Ven would obviously want to have his heart back, if Sora was ever to meet him. Thus, it would be separated from Roxas. I'm curious as to what effect that would have on him.
 

Sephiroth0812

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But what about my other question. Ven would obviously want to have his heart back, if Sora was ever to meet him. Thus, it would be separated from Roxas. I'm curious as to what effect that would have on him.

Then you did not read or understand my previous post fully, I said Roxas won't be affected much, as he's within Sora now and no longer "siphons" emotions from Ven's heart.
Ven's heart was only carried around by Roxas, he himself has no true connection to it.
It's Sora's heart that Ven's is connected to.
When Roxas rejoined with Sora in the beginning of KH 2, he brought (unknowingly) Ven's heart back with him and it went were it was before Roxas was created, resting inside Sora's.

BTW: Ven's heart rests within Soras's on its own accord. Before Ven's heart can be given back to bring Ventus out of his coma it has to be healed from the gievous wound inflicted by the destruction of the x-blade.
 

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Oh no, I get that. It's just that for some strange reason I was assuming they would bring Roxas back again. Feels kind of weird to think that the merge with Sora was the end of him. But I would be fine with that, as I much prefer Ven. However, that would mean no Naminé ever again either! :/

But yeah, it would make sense that both Roxas and Naminé are "gone". They were just parts of Sora and Kairi to begin with. But in theory, if Sora was ever to become a heartless again after having given Ven his heart back, we would either see Roxas again but without a heart, or a completely new nobody without a heart.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Oh no, I get that. It's just that for some strange reason I was assuming they would bring Roxas back again. Feels kind of weird to think that the merge with Sora was the end of him. But I would be fine with that, as I much prefer Ven. However, that would mean no Naminé ever again either! :/

But yeah, it would make sense that both Roxas and Naminé are "gone". They were just parts of Sora and Kairi to begin with. But in theory, if Sora was ever to become a heartless again after having given Ven his heart back, we would either see Roxas again but without a heart, or a completely new nobody without a heart.

Now I don't see why you would assume now that Roxas (and Naminé) have "ended" or are "gone" when they rejoined, they're still alive and well inside Sora and Kairi respectively.
They may have started out as parts of Sora and Kairi, and were also required to give back what they borrowed eventually, but they're still their own persons.

It seems to me you don't get their current status completely.
Roxas, Naminé and also Xion still exist, they have thoughts, a mind, a conciousness and, most important: own memories. They really still exist, only not independent, as they have no own heart to store their memory in, no body to shelter that heart and no soul to provide the body with energy.
In appearance they look still the same as they did while independent, because they remember their appearance as such.

Rewatch Blank Points, the secret ending of BBS, if you already unlocked it, there are some hints dropped. While Terra, Aqua and Ventus are guaranteed to be back there's also a possibility that we will see Roxas, Naminé and Xion returning.
 

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No, you're wrong. I get it. But in my opinion, they're "gone". Sora isn't even an "other" (Roxas' other would be Sora's heartless). Granted, Roxas is a "special nobody", but he merged with his original self and thus Sora became whole again. Of course, I do believe that Roxas could be reborn/awakened again in some way, but until then I really believe he joined with Sora, who then inherited Roxas' traits and memories. I don't think there is anything contradicting this theory, nor is there anything contradicting yours. I think it's up for interpretation, but on the other hand, there are plotholes in the entire story so it's not like it's a big deal.

As for Xion, she was manufactured so the same rules don't apply to her. Imo, she died - just like the Riku replica did. Of course, Nomura could just make the story even more complicated and come up with a silly excuse for their return, but I really hope that'll never happen.
 

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okay, I can shed a lot of light on this subject. Ven was destroyed, but his heart, his /complete/ heart, was left behind. Sora found ven's heart and allowed Ven to, how shall I say, join hearts. When sora became a heartless, then light part of ven left his heart and created Roxas. The dark part, Vanitas, was left behind. I have facts to back this up, Compare kh1 sora to kh2 sora. kh2 sora is WAY more aggressive, showing more signs to the darkness. he even says in kh2 "Maybe the darkness has gotten to me too..." So, Sora inherited Vanitas' dark heart and Roxas has ven's light heart (Oxymoron, I know. because Roxas has no heart, he being a nobody and all...) I mean, even Axel of the organization has his p!$$y moments, but Roxas maintains the light. Roxas is the only one who sees the light out of all the organization. Basically, Roxas = Ven, Sora = Vanitas. it all happens in kh1 when sora became a heartless. And actually,m Riku was supposed to be the chosen wielder of the keyblade, but his heart being taken by the darkness, and sora having inherited Ven's heart, Sora got the keyblade. So after Sora became a heartless, and lost Ven's half of the heart, he was the pure darkness. and when Riku no longer belonged in the dark realm, he became the pure light. This could very well foreshadow a re-creation of the X-Blade, dude to Xehanort's return. and they've gathered more than enough hearts to weave 1 of the 3 gates to kingdom hearts. They'd just need to gather the 7 princesses of heart and get the 2nd gate open and unlock the final door with the X-Blade, By Riku and Sora having to clash. a heart of pure light, and a heart of pure darkness...
I hope this answered some questions
 

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Ven was destroyed? What do you mean by that? His body is resting in Castle Oblivion and his broken heart went to Sora (and ultimately Kairi as well I think, thanks to Naminé).
 
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