So...why does Roxas/Ven look like Sora. I might be missing something.

[Taochan]

I tend to believe it's on purpose that the player doesn't see Vanitas's face at that time...*ggg*.
As this scene takes place at "current BBS-time" it is quite safe to assume that Vanitas looks like a black spiky-haired, golden-eyed Sora already at that time.

The actual period in which Vanitas either has no face or is a "dark Ven" would only be days, at most weeks.
As long as it took MX to realize that Vanitas is feeding off the powers of the injured Ven and his heart got into a critical status, as then Sora's heart would jump in and Vanitas would get his "future Sora-look".
On this note it'll be interesting if Xehanort saw Vanitas without Mask before he dumped Ven on DI and what he would deduce from Vanitas's face suddenly changing appearance...

It was definitely done so we wouldn't see his face until the end of Ven's scenario. I personally believe that once Ven connected to Sora, Vanitas forever had Sora's face... and before that I tend to believe Van might have had Ven's face rather than no face. But it seems without clarification, that it's awfully unfair of me to state it as fact, which is why I word it as "hard to say". You know that would be interesting. Maybe Xehanort knew about Ven's connection to Sora, which is how Ansem SOD found his way to DI and to Sora. I mean in the reports the keyblade wielder is mentioned which means he knows about Riku or Sora. How would he really know that since neither of them had their Dive to the Heart yet?

Coincidentally similar?
To be honest...I rather believe that Riku's and Vanitas's dark suits are coincidentally similar than Sora and Ven.
To make this easier for myself I actually invented the metaphor of "Heart-brothers" or "Heart-twins" for these two to actually somewhat describe their indeed very close bond.

I agree with you there. I'd just like it to be clear. XD I like to think that the dark suits are just a symbol that they're at the current time, on the side of darkness.
Heart brothers... they totally are.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

It was definitely done so we wouldn't see his face until the end of Ven's scenario. I personally believe that once Ven connected to Sora, Vanitas forever had Sora's face... and before that I tend to believe Van might have had Ven's face rather than no face. But it seems without clarification, that it's awfully unfair of me to state it as fact, which is why I word it as "hard to say". You know that would be interesting. Maybe Xehanort knew about Ven's connection to Sora, which is how Ansem SOD found his way to DI and to Sora. I mean in the reports the keyblade wielder is mentioned which means he knows about Riku or Sora. How would he really know that since neither of them had their Dive to the Heart yet?

I also think that Vanitas always had one face for all to see, at first either a "dark Ven" one or a blank and later the "future-Sora" one. That Vanitas is like Xion in this regard is a misunderstanding. Vanitas is a human being created out of a fragment of another heart, his physical form formed out of the darkness from that heart, while Xion is a puppet who has no real face...they're fundamentally different.
The only similarity would be that if Vanitas hadn't a "dark Ven"-face at the start that he would have started out with a blank face like Xion, but that doesn't mean Vanitas and Xion have the same properties.

About Ansem SoD and DI, it is speculated that he had knowledge of the Rite of Succession-ceremony that Terra did for Riku and that he was drawn to Riku. After all, Terra is/was a part of all this mess in Ansem SoD, so he would be drawn to Riku's potential, not his already established wielder-ability.
However, if Xehanort did see Vanitas without mask before he could at least know that Ven only survived because he connected with another heart...if this becomes important later on no one can say, but it's a scenario that is possible.

I agree with you there. I'd just like it to be clear. XD I like to think that the dark suits are just a symbol that they're at the current time, on the side of darkness.
Heart brothers... they totally are.

Some mysteries always remain...and if no canon information contradicts one's opinion we're allowed to stick which what suits our preference the most.
Yup, I found it to be a good term to use for myself. Sora and Ventus are not related by blood, but by heart, and that's a given fact!

 

[Taochan]

I also think that Vanitas always had one face for all to see, at first either a "dark Ven" one or a blank and later the "future-Sora" one. That Vanitas is like Xion in this regard is a misunderstanding. Vanitas is a human being created out of a fragment of another heart, his physical form formed out of the darkness from that heart, while Xion is a puppet who has no real face...they're fundamentally different.
The only similarity would be that if Vanitas hadn't a "dark Ven"-face at the start that he would have started out with a blank face like Xion, but that doesn't mean Vanitas and Xion have the same properties.

Yeah, Xion has more relation to Repliku than to Vanitas. Being a clean slate facially is irrelevant. Xion and Repliku weren't really people, Vanitas is part of a person. I don't really understand why the distinction is so difficult. XD

About Ansem SoD and DI, it is speculated that he had knowledge of the Rite of Succession-ceremony that Terra did for Riku and that he was drawn to Riku. After all, Terra is/was a part of all this mess in Ansem SoD, so he would be drawn to Riku's potential, not his already established wielder-ability.
However, if Xehanort did see Vanitas without mask before he could at least know that Ven only survived because he connected with another heart...if this becomes important later on no one can say, but it's a scenario that is possible.

Is this speculated from theories or was that somewhere in game that I've forgotten?
To me it seems that Ansem SOD is more Xehanort and Xemnas is more Terra... it's so hard to tell. I mean Ansem SOD, let's say he is solely Xehanort. That means Terra has a heartless running a muck. Could two heartless' be created and only have one nobody?
But let's just say that Ansem SOD is both Terra/Xehanort's heart... well then I could definitely see the memories of the Rite of Succession being the reason for his visits to DI.

Some mysteries always remain...and if no canon information contradicts one's opinion we're allowed to stick which what suits our preference the most.
Yup, I found it to be a good term to use for myself. Sora and Ventus are not related by blood, but by heart, and that's a given fact!

The suits aren't too big of a deal so I don't mind that remaining a mystery. But some people think Vanitas is in Riku, so if that's the case.. then it turns out they were a big deal.
I wonder if Sora would feel like he knew Ventus from the fact they've basically been together since he was born. :3

 

[Nayru's Love]

Is this speculated from theories or was that somewhere in game that I've forgotten?

BBS Ultimania; Nomura brought out that possibility.

To me it seems that Ansem SOD is more Xehanort and Xemnas is more Terra...

Oddly enough, I think Terra might have had more influence over XH than he did with Xemnas. Xemnas, we know for sure he had some form of MX's memories. Meanwhile, XH was possibly influenced by Terra's memories.

I mean Ansem SOD, let's say he is solely Xehanort. That means Terra has a heartless running a muck. Could two heartless' be created and only have one nobody?

Nah. Case in point, Namine.

 

[Taochan]

BBS Ultimania; Nomura brought out that possibility.

Oh, thanks! I had no idea... I guess I didn't read that segment.

Oddly enough, I think Terra might have had more influence over XH than he did with Xemnas. Xemnas, we know for sure he had some form of MX's memories. Meanwhile, XH was possibly influenced by Terra's memories.

By XH do you mean Ansem SOD?
EDIT: I now realize you meant Xehanort's Heartless. XD
On that topic, I'd love to hear your theory/thoughts on this. :3 In my mind, I see Ansem SOD more as MX because of his speeches and how he goes about making KH for power basically.
Xemnas, however talks about "trust" during the final battle. He talks to Aqua's armor and calls it "friend"; he sent a team to CO to search for the Room of Awakening, etc.

Nah. Case in point, Namine.

Yeah but in that instance, Kairi didn't even create a heartless due to her PoH status. Namine can hardly even be called a nobody because her origins are so random.
Which is why I wonder if a somebody with two hearts that are not hearts of light, could create two heartless and one nobody.

 

[Nayru's Love]

On that topic, I'd love to hear your theory/thoughts on this. :3 In my mind, I see Ansem SOD more as MX because of his speeches and how he goes about making KH for power basically.

Yeah, XH's motives are MX-driven, although Terra's heart might've been able to slip in an action or two...Specifically the "looking for Riku" part. Not quite concrete evidence, but even so I don't think he stood much of a chance with Xemnas.

Xemnas, however talks about "trust" during the final battle. He talks to Aqua's armor and calls it "friend"; he sent a team to CO to search for the Room of Awakening, etc.

-Xemnas playing mind games with Sora and Riku, probably. Either way, Terra's story wasn't really about trust so much as it was about darkness and whatnot (just like any other character in the series :v).
-The "friend" quote could've gone many ways. I think it may have been a sarcastic remark of MX recognizing himself as Terra in a sense.
-I'm sure MX can find some use for either the Chamber of Waking or Ven's body.

...

I think Xemnas may have been MX with Xehanort's memories in some form or another, playing along as him. That, and neither Xemnas nor XH could've been Terra since his mind was inside LS.

Yeah but in that instance, Kairi didn't even create a heartless due to her PoH status. Namine can hardly even be called a nobody because her origins are so random. Which is why I wonder if a somebody with two hearts that are not hearts of light, could create two heartless and one nobody.

Namine was still an entity created as a result of Sora's heartless transformation and Kairi's heart leaving his body.

Considering how a Nobody wasn't born when Kairi's heart left her body, yet one was born when it left Sora's, even if Namine isn't a Nobody, at the very least two things have to be created if any 2 hearts leave a body during a heartless transformation.

 

[Taochan]

Yeah, XH's motives are MX-driven, although Terra's heart might've been able to slip in an action or two...Specifically the "looking for Riku" part. Not quite concrete evidence, but even so I don't think he stood much of a chance with Xemnas.

I see what you're suggesting here. But ASOD stole Riku's body. D: Even a dark Terra seems unlikely to do something like that... but I can see it more now that you've said that.

-Xemnas playing mind games with Sora and Riku, probably. Either way, Terra's story wasn't really about trust so much as it was about darkness and whatnot (just like any other character in the series :v).
-The "friend" quote could've gone many ways. I think it may have been a sarcastic remark of MX recognizing himself as Terra in a sense.
-I'm sure MX can find some use for either the Chamber of Waking or Ven's body.

I suggested trust as a reason, because his story did have to do with trust; the lack of trust Aqua and Eraqus had in him. Which it seemed as though Xemnas was projecting upon Sora and Riku.
The "friend" thing could be sarcastic, since it wasn't in English I feel it's hard to grasp the diction.
But what would MX do with Ven's body? Sure, try the X-blade again maybe, but Ven is so damaged he couldn't be able to do it.

...

I think Xemnas may have been MX with Xehanort's memories in some form or another, playing along as him. That, and neither Xemnas nor XH could've been Terra since his mind was inside LS.

Well it's still hard to say exactly what a LS is. Seeing Terra's heart fight MX's control/the possibility of using Terra's memories to find anything insinuates that a LS may not be the mind but possibly thoughts/feelings.

Namine was still an entity created as a result of Sora's heartless transformation and Kairi's heart leaving his body.

Considering how a Nobody wasn't born when Kairi's heart left her body, yet one was born when it left Sora's, even if Namine isn't a Nobody, at the very least two things have to be created if any 2 hearts leave a body during a heartless transformation.

Well, there's a theory by Grass about Namine being a personified fragment of Kairi’s light containing the spell Aqua cast on her. I love this theory and feel it suits the situation.
Also a Nobody wasn't born when Kairi's heart left her own body, was because Kairi has no darkness as a PoH... which makes sense. Hence the other PoH's being fine when they all lost their hearts.

 

[Nayru's Love]

I see what you're suggesting here. But ASOD stole Riku's body. D: Even a dark Terra seems unlikely to do something like that... but I can see it more now that you've said that.

Like I said, XH seems to be more MX-driven.

I suggested trust as a reason, because his story did have to do with trust; the lack of trust Aqua and Eraqus had in him. Which it seemed as though Xemnas was projecting upon Sora and Riku.

kk, I see where you're going with this.

But what would MX do with Ven's body? Sure, try the X-blade again maybe, but Ven is so damaged he couldn't be able to do it.

He could probably mess around with Sora's insides...Though I'd lean towards him being interested in the CoW instead.

Well it's still hard to say exactly what a LS is. Seeing Terra's heart fight MX's control/the possibility of using Terra's memories to find anything insinuates that a LS may not be the mind but possibly thoughts/feelings.

Terra's heart may have been fighting MX's internally, but I don't think it did so externally, if you know what I mean. Compare XH taking over Riku to MX taking over Terra. When Riku tried to resist, we could see his "ghost" of sorts. We didn't get that from Terra, though. I think the missing link here is the mind/thoughts/whatever you want to call it. MX copying Terra's moves may have been just him absorbing his memories.

Well, there's a theory by Grass about Namine being a personified fragment of Kairi’s light containing the spell Aqua cast on her. I love this theory and feel it suits the situation.
Also a Nobody wasn't born when Kairi's heart left her own body, was because Kairi has no darkness as a PoH... which makes sense. Hence the other PoH's being fine when they all lost their hearts.

Heartless Sora is still the reason Namine exists.

 

[Crystal]

Not completely true...Master Xehanort also saw Vanitas's face. After the MoM-Exam when MX met with Van and asked him about Ven, he had his mask in his arms, it was just that the player couldn't see it then because the camera only moved up to Vanitas's throat.

But it didn't show it was Vanitas' face, i thinking that time MX saw him as Ventus'?

 

[Nayru's Love]

But it didn't show it was Vanitas' face, i thinking that time MX saw him as Ventus'?

Van (or Ven, I should say) already connected with Sora years ago, so he probably saw Sora.

 

[Destiny's End]

It was definitely done so we wouldn't see his face until the end of Ven's scenario. I personally believe that once Ven connected to Sora, Vanitas forever had Sora's face... and before that I tend to believe Van might have had Ven's face rather than no face. But it seems without clarification, that it's awfully unfair of me to state it as fact, which is why I word it as "hard to say". You know that would be interesting. Maybe Xehanort knew about Ven's connection to Sora, which is how Ansem SOD found his way to DI and to Sora. I mean in the reports the keyblade wielder is mentioned which means he knows about Riku or Sora. How would he really know that since neither of them had their Dive to the Heart yet?

I'm still a little vague on this subject. Vanitas' face takes the form of anybody who comes into contact with Ven's Heart, correct?

If that's the case, I agree with you than Vanitas having Ven's face before Sora's. I mean, Vanitas is a pure of being of Darkness from the Darkness in Ven's Heart.

Also, why are so many people saying Sora looks like Ven? Are you guys saying that Ven's connection with Sora in the beginning of BBS directly affected the way Sora would look?

I also think that Vanitas always had one face for all to see, at first either a "dark Ven" one or a blank and later the "future-Sora" one. That Vanitas is like Xion in this regard is a misunderstanding. Vanitas is a human being created out of a fragment of another heart, his physical form formed out of the darkness from that heart, while Xion is a puppet who has no real face...they're fundamentally different.
The only similarity would be that if Vanitas hadn't a "dark Ven"-face at the start that he would have started out with a blank face like Xion, but that doesn't mean Vanitas and Xion have the same properties.

About Ansem SoD and DI, it is speculated that he had knowledge of the Rite of Succession-ceremony that Terra did for Riku and that he was drawn to Riku. After all, Terra is/was a part of all this mess in Ansem SoD, so he would be drawn to Riku's potential, not his already established wielder-ability.
However, if Xehanort did see Vanitas without mask before he could at least know that Ven only survived because he connected with another heart...if this becomes important later on no one can say, but it's a scenario that is possible.

Wait, so do you mean, Ansem led Riku to darkness on purpose? If he had known about the passing of the Keyblade to Riku, he figured once he dealt with that, he would have nothing standing in his way of Kingdom Hearts, but he forgot about Sora.....

 

[Nayru's Love]

I'm still a little vague on this subject. Vanitas' face takes the form of anybody who comes into contact with Ven's Heart, correct?

Yeah, for the most part.

Also, why are so many people saying Sora looks like Ven? Are you guys saying that Ven's connection with Sora in the beginning of BBS directly affected the way Sora would look?

Aqua said that Sora was the spitting image of Ven, which makes the possibility of Ven influencing Sora more likely.

Wait, so do you mean, Ansem led Riku to darkness on purpose? If he had known about the passing of the Keyblade to Riku, he figured once he dealt with that, he would have nothing standing in his way of Kingdom Hearts, but he forgot about Sora.....

I wouldn't XH possible memories as Terra would've been crystal clear, rather they may have been very vague. So, it could've been an accident.

 

[Crystal]

Van (or Ven, I should say) already connected with Sora years ago, so he probably saw Sora.

Then before Ven is connected to Sora, what is his face?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Either blank or Ven's face, one would assume.
Yet when Master Xehanort saw Van without mask after the MoM-Exam he already had the "future-Sora" face, it's just the player who doesn't get to see it.

Like I said before, Vanitas had that other face only for a couple of days...or one/two weeks a most, while there was a time period between when MX cracked Ven's heart and he dumping him on DI, I don't think that period was that long.

@Taocha:
Sora doesn't even seem to remember that he allowed a badly injured other guy to stay with him when he was 4 years old. lol
The memories of mending Ven's first injury and forming the close heart-bond with him have to be some of the very first memories Sora's heart ever made, so these should be at the deepest point down in his heart, unreachable by Sora himself.
However I admit it would be interesting to see how Sora would feel and react when he would somehow come to know about this.

Edit:
@Destiny's End:

Also, why are so many people saying Sora looks like Ven? Are you guys saying that Ven's connection with Sora in the beginning of BBS directly affected the way Sora would look?

Like Eraser Rain said...Aqua noticed their similarity when she met 4year-old Sora.
The dominant heart of a person is what defines the appearance, Sora's heart was on its way to being born in the prologue in BBS, it hadn't reached Sora's body yet.
So while Sora's heart was on its way it got distracted by Ven's suffering and his bright light. The heart offered to help Ven and connected with his heart.
It's very plausible to assume that this affected Sora's future appearance to a degree.

 

[Crystal]

Either blank or Ven's face, one would assume.
Yet when Master Xehanort saw Van without mask after the MoM-Exam he already had the "future-Sora" face, it's just the player who doesn't get to see it.

Like I said before, Vanitas had that other face only for a couple of days...or one/two weeks a most, while there was a time period between when MX cracked Ven's heart and he dumping him on DI, I don't think that period was that long.

Hm..why is his face had the future-sora face instead of KH1 Sora's face? xD
Is it because some "age" thing?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Hm..why is his face had the future-sora face instead of KH1 Sora's face? xD
Is it because some "age" thing?

Either laziness on Nomuras part, or it was because at the time of BBS (when we see Van's face) Ventus was 14/15, and therefore Vanitas was too.
While Vanitas is chronologically only 4 years old, physically he's as old as Ventus is.
When Sora's newborn heart first connected with Ven the boy was 9/10 years old, so by this logic Vanitas should then have started out with the face of a 9/10 year-old Sora.

 

[Crystal]

Either laziness on Nomuras part, or it was because at the time of BBS (when we see Van's face) Ventus was 14/15, and therefore Vanitas was too.
While Vanitas is chronologically only 4 years old, physically he's as old as Ventus is.
When Sora's newborn heart first connected with Ven the boy was 9/10 years old, so by this logic Vanitas should then have started out with the face of a 9/10 year-old Sora.

Oh~ But its better for Van to have Sora's older face instead of KH1 Sora, just like Xion in Days xD
How do you know the connection to Sora happen 4 years ago?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Oh~ But its better for Van to have Sora's older face instead of KH1 Sora, just like Xion in Days xD
How do you know the connection to Sora happen 4 years ago?

By carefully reading all the reports in the Trinity archives, paying attention to the cutscenes and then add two and two together.
By the time of BBS Sora is four years old and his heart connected first to Ventus when it was just in the process of being born, so its easy to do the math that the scenes in the BBS prologue (and the neoshadow-flashback) took place four years before BBS.
Granted, it could be that Sora is actually five by the time of BBS so that it would be five years, but that would be nitpicky, lol.

 

[Crystal]

By carefully reading all the reports in the Trinity archives, paying attention to the cutscenes and then add two and two together.

This is what I never do.

By the time of BBS Sora is four years old and his heart connected first to Ventus when it was just in the process of being born, so its easy to do the math that the scenes in the BBS prologue (and the neoshadow-flashback) took place four years before BBS.
Granted, it could be that Sora is actually five by the time of BBS so that it would be five years, but that would be nitpicky, lol.

If Sora was 4 years old in BBS, then by the time his connection with Ventus, Sora is an infant? lol
How can an infant talks like he know everything
At first, I thought the voice in Ven's awakening was Vanitas xD

 

[Sephiroth0812]

If Sora was 4 years old in BBS, then by the time his connection with Ventus, Sora is an infant? lol
How can an infant talks like he know everything
At first, I thought the voice in Ven's awakening was Vanitas xD

Even the stage before infant...Sora's just getting ready to being born by his mother.
The one talking was not "Sora" as a complete being...it was Sora's heart that talked. The heart was on its way to occupy its body, yet took a side step because it felt sympathy for Ventus. (Sora's kind nature is already coming through even before he was fully born...lol.)

Vanitas?
Lol, as far as I remember Vanitas wants to dominate Ven and absorb his power, not help him survive...and I never noticed that Vanitas is even capable of doing a kind speech like that heart did...