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So this caught my attention



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Gram

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Xehanort: The real Organization XIII.

Riku: The Organization?

Xehanort: I am Xehanort from the most distant past. My future self gave me a
task--to visit the splintered versions of myself in many worlds, and ensure
they gathered here today.

Riku: From the past?

Xehanort: There are restrictions to movement through time. First, you must
leave your body behind to do it. Then, there must be a version of you waiting
at the destination. Upon arrival, you can only move forward as per the laws
of time. And you cannot rewrite the events that are destined to happen.

Riku: What have you done?

Xehanort: My most future self will arrive soon. Then, time for all of us
will return to normal...


(He raises his hand up to the highest throne, where a smoky figure is slowly
appearing)

Xehanort: ...and I will go back to my era to live the life fate has in store.
He can vouch for that.
--------------------------------

Notice the bold part of the dialogue quote from the vid there. This scene is the second of YX's explanations about how his time travel works and what the Xehanorts plans are up till now.

Now an important fact to keep in mind here is that the source of Ansem, YX, and all the others means of time travel comes from MX himself:
— What about Xemnas and Ansem, essentially they weren’t inside anyone, was it due to circumstances of the worlds of sleep?

Nomura: First off, when Young Xehanort made contact with the Brown Robed Figure, that is to say, the Xehanort who called himself Ansem, his abilities were transferred to him. As a result of Master Xehanort tossing his physical body, he was able to exceed time, and this power was carried into the Brown Robed Figure. Thus when Young Xehanort made contact with him, he gained this power. Possessing this power. Young Xehanort functioned as a “portal”, summoning Xemnas and Ansem each time they appeared. That’s why Young Xehanort was there whenever they appeared. Additionally, when Sora and Riku dropped into the worlds of sleep, simultaneously Young Xehanort himself goes into the world of sleep.
MX granted the ability, Ansem used it, and YX was the one told to make use of this power to gather the others.

This is a very important factor because it means what is allowing them to time travel is MX's state of incompletion were his heart is divided from his original old body.
Yes I know Ansem was the catalyst for using this power but MX is the source.

YX goes over his explanation of the time travel quite clearly despite everyones' confusion. But let's focus on the main rule:
"First, you must leave your body behind to do it."

(here's a more detailed thread on time travel if your confused so far: http://forums.khinsider.com/kingdom-hearts-iii/198272-perhaps-time-travel-isnt-too-concrete.html)

And going by what I just showed you the body in question for this was MX. Yet doesn't this poke a hole in his scheme? MX returned as a complete person in DDD, he says so himself, so what does this mean that "time for all of us will return to normal"?

Does it mean that now that MX is whole again the others will return to their natural flows of time and eras? They all do share the same heart with MX and relied on his incomplete state to time travel after all.

But if thats the case what will MX do for KH3? If the flow of time was returned to normal for everyone after he returned then what will he do to summon them back?
Does this explain Xigbar's remark:
Xigbar said:
What now, you old coot? Our time is up!
For unknown reasons they only had a limited time frame and then all of them disappeared yet there didn't seem to be no time frame prior when YX, Ansem and Xemnas was stalking Sora & Riku through DDD.
Could it be that MX's return as a whole being undone the power to travel time and then limited their stay?

What do you think? Does this raise questions for you? Does it seem like bored over analyzing? Or maybe this raises your hopes time travel wont reappear in KH3?
Discuss~
 
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FudgemintGuardian

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This means...this means Xemnas and Ansem will come back in Replica bodies like I wanted!

I've watched that scene I have no idea how many times and the thought that Xehanort's incompletion was what let the time travel possible never came to me.
 

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Hmmmm. This would actually answer a couple of questions that I had in regards to why they suddenly were out of time after Riku's fight with Young Master Xehanort and why Master Xehanort was trying turn Sora into a Seeker of Darkness at the end of the game instead of doing so immediately at the beginning of the game.
 

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why Master Xehanort was trying turn Sora into a Seeker of Darkness at the end of the game instead of doing so immediately at the beginning of the game.
Well as far as the second question goes, it's because Xehanorts needs his host to open to darkness in some way, it's a method. Ansem baited Riku with and convinced him open to darkness then possessed him, MX pulled Terra into darkness with his schemes in BBS then possessed him, and with Sora he made fall into sleep which is held in darkness (which is why darkness tried to envelope him after the Xemans fight) before the attempted possession.

MX basically needs the his host knee deep in darkness before possession. =3
 

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Well as far as the second question goes, it's because Xehanorts needs his host to open to darkness in some way, it's a method. Ansem baited Riku with and convinced him open to darkness then possessed him, MX pulled Terra into darkness with his schemes in BBS then possessed him, and with Sora he made fall into sleep which is held in darkness (which is why darkness tried to envelope him after the Xemans fight) before the attempted possession.

MX basically needs the his host knee deep in darkness before possession. =3
an easier analogy is, MX is the kid who tells you to stand next to the pool and look in, because something cool is in it, and then pushes you in. the pool, in this case, being darkness.
 

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For unknown reasons they only had a limited time frame and then all of them disappeared yet there didn't seem to be no time frame prior when YX, Ansem and Xemnas was stalking Sora & Riku through DDD.
Could it be that MX's return as a whole being undone the power to travel time and then limited their stay?

What do you think? Does this raise questions for you? Does it seem like bored over analyzing? Or maybe this raises your hopes time travel wont reappear in KH3?
Discuss~
As usual you notice the tiniest scraps of possible foreshadowing that are available.
Good point.

If the power of time travel is with the Norts only when MX himself is incomplete, that would mean he has no access to it in KH III itself.

Now that leaves two possible scenarios I can immediately think of in order to answer the question as to "how can the XIII darknesses then be gathered for the ploy of forging the X-blade?"

The first one would be that Xehanort simply resorts to Yen Sids/Merlins time travel method which includes sending others through time without travelling yourself, as that was what Yen Sid did with Sora and Riku in DDD.
In this case, the present MX would use time travel powers to pull those that really come from the past (Young Xehanort and possibly Xemnas and Ansem) to the present without them themselves doing anything and without he himself moving through time.

For the second scenario, there is to keep in mind that Nomura not only pointed out that not all members of the new Org are time travelers, he also says something about that Xemnas and Ansem exist somewhere "outside of/beyond time":
Famitsu Interview May 12 said:
— After generating and before attacking Sora, were Xemnas and Ansem somewhere that exceeded beyond time?
Nomura: That’s right.
This may indicate that, wherever Xemnas and Ansem are right now, it is a timeless (and thus static) place/realm, if Master Xehanort can access that place/dimension/plane of existence or whatever it is, he may be able to summon Xemnas and Ansem to his side just like he can summon the Guardian.
Going a tad further, if this ominous place is/would be in fact inside Xehanort's heart (another parallel to Sora and it would fit with the whole "recompletion process"), then the most likely answer to the whole riddle would be the equally ominuous "Key to Return Hearts".
If this "construct" (be it a Keyblade, a process, an ability or even a person) can be used to supposedly return hearts to where they belong and allow someone like Sora to "recreate people who were thought lost forever" like Xion, Naminé and Roxas, then I suppose that the same possibility would be available to Xehanort.
"Key to return Hearts" can also have (as so often in KH) several meanings. It can mean the obvious "returning a heart where it belongs" aka back to it's own body but it can also mean "returning" as in a heart returning to the physical world/awakening again from the "eternal" sleep, meaning the actual titular "Birth by Sleep" itself.

What gives this entire thing a dent however is Yen Sid's explanation that, in order to be able to awaken a sleeping heart from slumber, you need the corresponding power which can only be gained by unlocking seven sleeping keyholes as well.
Sora and Riku both gained this power during the course of DDD, so they can do it, but as far as we know Xehanort does not have that power in his arsenal.
(Of course it's possible that he does have it and we just don't know it yet...)
 

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What gives this entire thing a dent however is Yen Sid's explanation that, in order to be able to awaken a sleeping heart from slumber, you need the corresponding power which can only be gained by unlocking seven sleeping keyholes as well.
Sora and Riku both gained this power during the course of DDD, so they can do it, but as far as we know Xehanort does not have that power in his arsenal.
(Of course it's possible that he does have it and we just don't know it yet...)
This makes me think Xehanort might trick Riku and Sora to revive Ansem and Xemnas from their slumber in some way. How, I got nothing. But Terra's heart might be sleeping, so Xehanort could insert Xemnas and Ansem's hearts into his, so when Sora or Riku wake Terra, they'd unknowingly wake those two as well.
 

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Nomura said:
As a result of Master Xehanort tossing his physical body, he was able to exceed time, and this power was carried into the Brown Robed Figure.
I like to think that MX's harboring of the time-travel ability is a result of him discarding his own, personal body. So long as he'd be away from it, then he'd still have the power. In that scenario, he'd still be in Terra's body during KH3, but by ejecting him out of it and putting him back into his own body, the time-traveling schemes would end. Which would be a fitting ending, too.

The discarding of his own body is one of the reasons why I've always been inclined to think that MX is still in Terra's body. It's speculative to a certain degree, but it's a sound theory.
 

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I like to think that MX's harboring of the time-travel ability is a result of him discarding his own, personal body. So long as he'd be away from it, then he'd still have the power. In that scenario, he'd still be in Terra's body during KH3, but by ejecting him out of it and putting him back into his own body, the time-traveling schemes would end. Which would be a fitting ending, too.

The discarding of his own body is one of the reasons why I've always been inclined to think that MX is still in Terra's body. It's speculative to a certain degree, but it's a sound theory.
=[ Did you not read the OP? That's the whole basis, his original body. In the quote I provided, which is the same one you used. Nomura outright says was from MX tossing his own body in BBS. That's why it was carried over to Ansem.

I wouldn't call it a sound theory, a possible one yes but nothing actually making it sound. There's nothing hinting he's still in Terra's body.
Sure the heart overrides the bodies appearance but at the same time Nomura always provides a visual to show this.
When Ansem stole Riku's body we seen one instance of Riku appearing all spectral, then we have the added FM scene with Riku in the dark realm were Mickey finally reaches him and confirms "it was to late for your [Riku's] body", and then we have a final moment during the final battle were Ansem switches between the bodies actual "Riku look" to his own.

Then with Xehanort's vessels we have the hint of yellow eyes and pointed ears. And even the instance MX takes over YX's mind is alluded to visually when the video vooms in on MX's shadowy figure in the chair, not yet formed, to YX suddenly attacking free of Mickey's time spell.

Nomura always has something showing it's more than just one person in the body. He alludes to them and even points them out bluntly later in interviews.

We however don't have that here. There's nothing hinting MX is still in Terra's body nor does what we currently know of recompletion work that way:

Nomura said:
VIII. When the heartless are defeated, what becomes of the stolen hearts? Also, when members of Organization XIII and other Nobodies are defeated, do they return to their original form?

When heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on. As for the whereabouts of hearts in KHII that turn up, this time they remarkably went to the Organization (there is a foot note here that says "In Kingdom Hearts II after heartless were defeated, the many hearts were absorbed by the Kingdom Hearts of "people's hearts"). However, in the rare case that the body changed into a Nobody and when there is no container for the heart, it resorts to a state of suspension.

In the case of a Nobody being defeated, it's a little more complicated. If the above mentioned hearts are liberated, they return to their original form. However, if the heart is still stolen by the heartless, the Nobody's body is swallowed by darkness. If somewhere in the world their hearts are taken back, perhaps they might be able to return to their original human form.
Sure this in detailed in the case of heartless/nobody but it should matter for any separated heart-body since the body itself doesn't die.
MX abandoned the body but it never died thus, going by what we learn here of heartless that lack a corresponding nobody, that would mean MX's body was in the same state any other extinguished body is in awaiting the heart's return.

The main point however is that the heart returns to it's extinguished body. Which brings up the second issue of the MX-in-Terra-still theory.
We don't know the details.

We don't know how the Apprentice was divided nor where of the three in him went. Although Xemnas is the confirmed nobody of both Terra & MX (and Eraqus) and is even confirmed to have memories of the two, Ansem is different.

Nothing about Ansem alludes to Terra or Eraqus, even Ansems youthful appearance can be attributed too Ansem's own possible self born from Xehanort's time as the Apprentice.
The way Ansem dresses, hand gestures, speech, obsession, everything about him alludes to MX. He has no outright confirmed Terra/Eraqus qualities.

What I'm getting at by showing this is that we don't even know if Terra is still present within Ansem. Nor does it make sense why Xemnas would be mostly Xehanort when he has two far more positive influences that would've, and should've, affected him more than it did.
Its this idea that spawns the theory MX left a seed of himself in the form of a norted Terra/Eraqus to control the nobody while his actual heart formed Ansem.

We don't know where Terra exactly is since the split so there's no way of knowing if MX was still piggybacking his heart as a host.
If anything Ansem & Xemnas' dominant Xehanort traits would imply Terra either isn't there or was finally "swallowed" and imprisoned (rendered dormant) by MX. (which is how Nomura described MX possession)

Then there's recompletion itself. It returns the heart to it's extinguished body. Ansem & Xemnas were a mix of things yes but the body+soul Xemnas used wasn't Xehanorts.
Xemnas would've been Terra's technical extinguished body while MX's old one would be his. And I know you've argued it before but there's no way to spin that MX's heart had claim to Terra's body, he was a forced invader clinging to Terra's heart to control him.
Yes Ansem and Xemnas were born from this mess but as many have pointed out before they aren't MX himself and may even have hearts of their own born from seeds of MX's. So while they would have ties to Terra, MX himself still doesn't. Mx's heart, his main heart, will always be bound to the body he abandoned.

Then there's this:
DDD Ultimania said:
Q: What happened to Terra's heart and body?
A: In this game, Master Xehanort does not appear in the form of Terra-Xehanort when he transferred his heart, but as the old man he was before he took control of Terra's body. During the revival, what happened to Terra's body, and Terra's heart that was in opposition to Xehanort's control? In Kingdom Hearts, Birth by Sleep, it is to be considered that it was thought the whereabouts of the heart of Terra's master, Eraqus rested within his body.
Look at the wording of this interview. The MX that returned is specified as the form he had before taking Terra's body. Then it mentions the unknown whereabouts of said body, Terra, and Eraqus during the revival.
It's all worded in the past tense as what happened to them after MX came back as his old self.

As mentioned waaaay earlier at this point (lol it got long xD) Nomura always leaves hints or visually alludes to Xehanort using or being in another body however we have no such allusions here.
Although he likes twists and turns Nomura has never once showed us a character that wasn't as they appear. Ansem showed he was in Riku's body, then later it was confirmed he took it by Nomura then again twice by YX and Riku in DDD.
And Nomura gave the hint of yellow eyes in an interview as a sign of possession.

He always leaves us something to hint toward body possession and we have no such hints in the theory MX is still using Terra's.
You could argue he's gonna surprise us but that's a hollow argument because MX confirms Terra is still under his control in some way so it'd be nowhere near a twist that Terra is on his side as one of his many puppets or his host still.

Then there's the law of the time travel as well that Xehanort's method requires discarding of a body. If it could be used so freely why did Xehanort wait till he had discarded Terras?
Sure theres the amnesia but the opening of DDD and Ansem/Xemnas' obvious remembrance showing that this supposed amnesia, if he actually had it, wasn't permanent. So why wait till he's discarded yet another body?

I know YX and the others were in their body but keep in mind the first chain in that link of time travelers was Ansem himself, the disembodied heart. He went to YX and then transferred/used that power to send YX off.
Ansem was the one allowing them to travel and MX was the source of Ansems power to do so.

It almost alludes to that Xehanort couldn't enact the time travel backup plan till he had once again ditched a body.

Plus what your proposed only makes YX's words make no real sense. How is time returning to normal for him and the other Xehanorts? Why does Xigbar point out that they are suddenly on a fixed time when the didn't have one before? Why does MX himself mention they are out of time and must "return whence they came"?

Plus the biggest red light for me is your own theories point. If MX was returned to Terra upon recompletion as you claim then he'd be as he said himself in DDD "complete". Your own theory states recompletion would've returned MX to Terra as a whole being normally would which would make the requirement for a discarded body null as MX's new body would be Terra still making the notion of him keeping his time power after his return impossible.

Nothing makes sense on your MX using Terra body theory or hints at it to me. Don't get me wrong, I'd definitely never rule it out completely but before I entertain the idea I'll need something actually hinting it in the game like all the other instances of possession.

This makes me think Xehanort might trick Riku and Sora to revive Ansem and Xemnas from their slumber in some way. How, I got nothing. But Terra's heart might be sleeping, so Xehanort could insert Xemnas and Ansem's hearts into his, so when Sora or Riku wake Terra, they'd unknowingly wake those two as well.
That's certainly possible. MX already tricked pretty much everyone in DDD rather effortlessly.

As usual you notice the tiniest scraps of possible foreshadowing that are available.
Good point.

If the power of time travel is with the Norts only when MX himself is incomplete, that would mean he has no access to it in KH III itself.

Now that leaves two possible scenarios I can immediately think of in order to answer the question as to "how can the XIII darknesses then be gathered for the ploy of forging the X-blade?"

The first one would be that Xehanort simply resorts to Yen Sids/Merlins time travel method which includes sending others through time without travelling yourself, as that was what Yen Sid did with Sora and Riku in DDD.
In this case, the present MX would use time travel powers to pull those that really come from the past (Young Xehanort and possibly Xemnas and Ansem) to the present without them themselves doing anything and without he himself moving through time.

For the second scenario, there is to keep in mind that Nomura not only pointed out that not all members of the new Org are time travelers, he also says something about that Xemnas and Ansem exist somewhere "outside of/beyond time":


This may indicate that, wherever Xemnas and Ansem are right now, it is a timeless (and thus static) place/realm, if Master Xehanort can access that place/dimension/plane of existence or whatever it is, he may be able to summon Xemnas and Ansem to his side just like he can summon the Guardian.
Going a tad further, if this ominous place is/would be in fact inside Xehanort's heart (another parallel to Sora and it would fit with the whole "recompletion process"), then the most likely answer to the whole riddle would be the equally ominuous "Key to Return Hearts".
If this "construct" (be it a Keyblade, a process, an ability or even a person) can be used to supposedly return hearts to where they belong and allow someone like Sora to "recreate people who were thought lost forever" like Xion, Naminé and Roxas, then I suppose that the same possibility would be available to Xehanort.
"Key to return Hearts" can also have (as so often in KH) several meanings. It can mean the obvious "returning a heart where it belongs" aka back to it's own body but it can also mean "returning" as in a heart returning to the physical world/awakening again from the "eternal" sleep, meaning the actual titular "Birth by Sleep" itself.

What gives this entire thing a dent however is Yen Sid's explanation that, in order to be able to awaken a sleeping heart from slumber, you need the corresponding power which can only be gained by unlocking seven sleeping keyholes as well.
Sora and Riku both gained this power during the course of DDD, so they can do it, but as far as we know Xehanort does not have that power in his arsenal.
(Of course it's possible that he does have it and we just don't know it yet...)
Hmm I had forgotten about Yen Sids method when making this...though wouldn't that raise a problem? Though it varies in how one travels it still seems to follow the third rule that "upon arrival you can only move forward as per the laws of time".
Meaning once you reach your destination you can only go forward from there. So wouldn't sending someone back to get them halt that up? Or do you think he has a way of pulling them directly to the present?

That's a good point there. Out of all the norts Ansem and Xemnas are specifically described as being outside time.
Perhaps this ties into their unique make up. They were born from three hearts but lacked any actual body to call their own.
If they, like Roxas or Xion, formed a heart from MX's then upon recompletion they wouldn't really have anywhere to go. These two arent' the same as typical cases such as Axel/Lea which was nearly identical and seemingly merged upon return.
Rather they had a mixed nature of three hearts which perhaps made it impossible for them to return anywhere since they both lacked a body or a singular heart to be born from.

If this is the case they maybe the Ansem/Xemnas we saw in DDD wasn't traveling time but stuck outside it, maybe in the Dream Realm itself. Naturally YX using MX's time traveling powers would be able to reach them in such a state.
However if this thread is right and that power was lost upon MX coming back then he'd need an alternate retrieval method.

Perhaps MX doesn't need the power, as Fudgement pointed out he could exploit Sora or Riku in some way that do have it.
 

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=[ Did you not read the OP? That's the whole basis, his original body. In the quote I provided, which is the same one you used. Nomura outright says was from MX tossing his own body in BBS. That's why it was carried over to Ansem.
My post was a response to the question you posed at the end:

Could it be that MX's return as a whole being undone the power to travel time and then limited their stay?
In that my response basically says that he can still retain his powers as a whole being, so long as he's not in his own body.

We'll leave it at that; there's no need to write a college essay trying to convince me I'm wrong (although if it makes you feel any better, I did take the time to read through it). This is a waste of both of our times, so let's just agree to disagree.
 

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My post was a response to the question you posed at the end:

In that my response basically says that he can still retain his powers as a whole being, so long as he's not in his own body.

We'll leave it at that; there's no need to write a college essay trying to convince me I'm wrong (although if it makes you feel any better, I did take the time to read through it). This is a waste of both of our times, so let's just agree to disagree.
I see, my mistake but at the same time your own theory depunks the notion. MX says himself he's returned completed, there's no real way to dance around this fact.
This form of time travel relies on incompletion of which MX no longer is. So whether he's complete in his own body or as you propose complete in Terra's he's still technically complete and confirms the fact meaning that power should be lost by the rules a Xehanort himself provided.

MX has had theories and been wrong in the past but he'd never be wrong about his own status of being, especially after all he learned through the Apprentice, Ansem and Xemnas on heartless, hearts, bodies and recompletion.

As for the latter, I can agree to disagree though I don't rule out your theory I just see no backing in it other than your oddly obstinate attachment to it. I need something to incline me and at current all the inclination is in the opposite direction.
 
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Gram said:
Or maybe this raises your hopes time travel wont reappear in KH3?
Yes. I'm so tired of MX being able to use a time loop to mess with fellow keyblade wielders. Actually, if time did return to normal for those Master Xehanort used to separate himself physically and take control of the majority of Organization XIII; wouldn't that mean their bodies would either disappear from being defeated by Sora or simply not exist anymore? I kind of imagine its too late for the nobodies to return to their somebody forms. Except for those that escaped it.

I feel like YX, Ansem and Xemnas weren't actually real per se. I always imagined the realm of sleep was a place that bent the rules to gain or lose something out of it.
 

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Yes. I'm so tired of MX being able to use a time loop to mess with fellow keyblade wielders. Actually, if time did return to normal for those Master Xehanort used to separate himself physically and take control of the majority of Organization XIII; wouldn't that mean their bodies would either disappear from being defeated by Sora or simply not exist anymore? I kind of imagine its too late for the nobodies to return to their somebody forms. Except for those that escaped it.

I feel like YX, Ansem and Xemnas weren't actually real per se. I always imagined the realm of sleep was a place that bent the rules to gain or lose something out of it.
Well it depends on how many of the members are past versions. As Sephiroth0812 points out, Nomura has mentioned that not every member is from the past meaning some of them are indeed present beings. The question is however, "who".
YX is the self confirmed time traveler, he's a given. But we don't know about everyone else, Xigbar/Braig & Saix/Isa could very well be present humans or past nobodies.
Ansem and Xemnas, as Sephy pointed out, are said to be outside time so their entire state of being is in question.
Terra is a present version since he'd have revived with MX but we don't know what condition he's in.

As for the rest of the members it's unknown however if the power of time travel is indeed undone then yes the ones from the past should indeed disappear. Which is why I have the thread cause now I too wonder how they'll come back. =3

As for Sora defeating them well present or not the second they fall to anyone they'll disappear since they'd either be dead or sent back in time. x3
But each and every member should exist in some sense, recompletion made some human again and those from the past are physical as well.

I feel like I rambled but hopefully that helped. xD Basically said no they shouldn't disappear. Everyone there is either physically from the past or human again as for MX himself it's only his heart that's spread among them so he only divided himself twice, once to take Terra's body and then again to make Ansem/Xemnas. ouo

The Realm of Sleep definitely bent some rules but each are real in some sense. =3
 

Sephiroth0812

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This makes me think Xehanort might trick Riku and Sora to revive Ansem and Xemnas from their slumber in some way. How, I got nothing. But Terra's heart might be sleeping, so Xehanort could insert Xemnas and Ansem's hearts into his, so when Sora or Riku wake Terra, they'd unknowingly wake those two as well.
I agree with that notion, not only would it fit with the constant theme of the good guys (at first) working unknowingly right into the antagonist's hands, it would also be very "norty" for Xehanort as using others to gain something is his usual modus operandi.
Why making efforts when you can let your opponents do the work for you?
Xehanort (with help from Xigbar and Xemnas) already used the painful memories of the suffering ones against Sora in DDD, so him using Sora's desire to help them in KH III to his own ends again would certainly fit into already established turf.

I suppose it would be quite the shocker for Sora & co. if they get to finally save Terra and are overjoyed, suddenly they are blasted back by a shockwave of Darkness and MX appears gloating, thanking them for "returning" his most devoted "followers" for good with Ansem SoD and Xemnas standing at his side not by having travelled through time, but returned as "own" (as far as this can go with MX control in the mix) beings alongside Terra.

Hmm I had forgotten about Yen Sids method when making this...though wouldn't that raise a problem? Though it varies in how one travels it still seems to follow the third rule that "upon arrival you can only move forward as per the laws of time".
Meaning once you reach your destination you can only go forward from there. So wouldn't sending someone back to get them halt that up? Or do you think he has a way of pulling them directly to the present?

That's a good point there. Out of all the norts Ansem and Xemnas are specifically described as being outside time.
Perhaps this ties into their unique make up. They were born from three hearts but lacked any actual body to call their own.
If they, like Roxas or Xion, formed a heart from MX's then upon recompletion they wouldn't really have anywhere to go. These two arent' the same as typical cases such as Axel/Lea which was nearly identical and seemingly merged upon return.
Rather they had a mixed nature of three hearts which perhaps made it impossible for them to return anywhere since they both lacked a body or a singular heart to be born from.

If this is the case they maybe the Ansem/Xemnas we saw in DDD wasn't traveling time but stuck outside it, maybe in the Dream Realm itself. Naturally YX using MX's time traveling powers would be able to reach them in such a state.
However if this thread is right and that power was lost upon MX coming back then he'd need an alternate retrieval method.

Perhaps MX doesn't need the power, as Fudgement pointed out he could exploit Sora or Riku in some way that do have it.
The latter. Yen Sid sent/pushed Riku and Sora to the past without performing any time travel himself. MX would do the same as Yen Sid with the only difference that he would pull any past nort he needs for his Organisation into the present rather than sending someone to the past.

Yep, that's why I'm wondering about Ansem's and Xemnas' actual state right now.
Indeed, these similarities are definitely there and even if MX would count them as "himself" to a degree he's savvy enough to see their worth at least as two more "seeds" he could make use of and thus keep Ansem's and Xemnas' possible new hearts separate just for this reason.
This would make MX's, Ansem's and Xemnas' variant actually be an in-between make up of the two extremes Lea/Axel (and any normal cases) where any possible new hearts seemingly truly merge upon return and Sora/Roxas/Xion where the "source"/original explicitly sees them/allows them to be fully own beings.
MX sees them as separate, but only in the vein of having two more pawns on his chessboard and not as true beings.

This is certainly possible, as Yen Sid says in the DDD game itself that the Realm of Sleep is outside time:
Yen Sid said:
In the Sleeping Worlds, real time does not flow. Unless one restores the world by waking it from its slumber, it will stay locked in a dream forever.
It would also parallel the worlds and their hearts, as it was said that while most worlds were restored at the end of KH 1, some were not and fell to sleep instead.
When Ansem and Xemnas were both destroyed in KH 2, anything that was part of their original beings went on to be used in the recompletion process, but anything beyond that probably also fell to sleep.
Maybe it was even MX himself who instead of integrating anything from Ansem and Xemnas that wasn't sorely needed for recompletion into himself "banished" them into the Realm of Sleep himself.
This was done possibly even in anticipation that Yen Sid would send someone into the Realm to acquire the power to reawaken lost hearts, as Xehanort himself took care about sending several hearts to sleep before.
Correct, if this time travelling power is lost according to the theory in the OP, MX would need to look into other means to reach/fetch Ansem and Xemnas.

As I said above, it would be certainly fitting for Xehanort to pull such a stunt as he's done it multiple times before already.
Not to mention that it can be pretty unnerving coming to realize that when you help your suffering allies you're helping your enemies at the same time as well.

The Realm of Sleep definitely bent some rules but each are real in some sense. =3
If I recall correctly it wasn't the Realm of Sleep that bent some rules but the World that never was itself, as Nomura stated in the DDD Ultimania that how they were able to exist each at the same time has to do with some more special properties of TWTNW.

Then there's also this tidbit to keep in mind:
DDD Ultimania said:
— In other words, Ansem and Xemnas were, at the same time, existing in the time and space of KH3D as well as having returned to their true human form after being destroyed?
Nomura: Yes, it does turn out that way. However, as I said before, ‘The World That Never Was’, where the thirteen all met, is a special space. The mechanics behind how they were all able to exist at the same time is a mystery. From KH1 on, Ansem has returned no matter how many times he has been defeated, perhaps the same sort of thing happened.
All this sounds strongly like Xehanort has some sort of "anchor" available which enables not only him but also his derived vessels/spawned other variants to return eventually after some time as long as this "anchor" (whatever it is) is present.
Perhaps it is really like a collective with his spread out heart-seeds as there was always at least one heart-seed (if not his main heart) physically present during the entire run of the series, meaning that all other seeds can return as long as one of them is still present physically in some vessel.
This would mean that in order to truly defeat Xehanort for good, all his spread out heart seeds need to be either neutralized or returned to his main heart and then the main heart needs to be somehow defeated.
 

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I suppose it would be quite the shocker for Sora & co. if they get to finally save Terra and are overjoyed, suddenly they are blasted back by a shockwave of Darkness and MX appears gloating, thanking them for "returning" his most devoted "followers" for good with Ansem SoD and Xemnas standing at his side not by having travelled through time, but returned as "own" (as far as this can go with MX control in the mix) beings alongside Terra.
I can now totally see a seen were Terra is saved only for him to say "...you don't know what you've done...." then suddenly you have Ansem and Xemnas as true people standing next to their originator MX.
Save one but revive two more, it'd certainly be a "norty" thing for MX to do. Heck, depending on his actual state of mind, the Apprentice might also return that way filling in the seat now left by Terra.
Though I suppose that depends on if AX is of separate enough mind from "Ansem".

Could you imagine Terra's thoughts in that moment? On top of all the years he was used to make these three Xehanort and made to take part in the destruction they wrought only to be the means of their final and full return.


The latter. Yen Sid sent/pushed Riku and Sora to the past without performing any time travel himself. MX would do the same as Yen Sid with the only difference that he would pull any past nort he needs for his Organisation into the present rather than sending someone to the past.
I see that makes sense. I would say you'd think that'd be quite a strain on him but if were we're going with Ansem/Xemnas is right that'd make YX the only travler. (that we know of anyway)

Yep, that's why I'm wondering about Ansem's and Xemnas' actual state right now.
Indeed, these similarities are definitely there and even if MX would count them as "himself" to a degree he's savvy enough to see their worth at least as two more "seeds" he could make use of and thus keep Ansem's and Xemnas' possible new hearts separate just for this reason.
This would make MX's, Ansem's and Xemnas' variant actually be an in-between make up of the two extremes Lea/Axel (and any normal cases) where any possible new hearts seemingly truly merge upon return and Sora/Roxas/Xion where the "source"/original explicitly sees them/allows them to be fully own beings.
MX sees them as separate, but only in the vein of having two more pawns on his chessboard and not as true beings.
I think MX counts every seed as "himself" to some degree but only in a lowly sense. I'd imagine that to MX they are all "parts of me" but not truly "himself".
Its a bit of a vain outlook too since he'd consider each of them beneath him not even worth recognition of being truly of him. (another contrast to Sora who doesn't even consider Roxas a part of him but just "Roxas". sure he knows Roxas is his nobody but that's likely just a technicality to Sora)

It'd even make sense of MX having all their memories despite the separate nature since all seeds share a consciousness/link with MX. (though they aren't said to be the exact same one, kinda like a network)

This is certainly possible, as Yen Sid says in the DDD game itself that the Realm of Sleep is outside time:

It would also parallel the worlds and their hearts, as it was said that while most worlds were restored at the end of KH 1, some were not and fell to sleep instead.
When Ansem and Xemnas were both destroyed in KH 2, anything that was part of their original beings went on to be used in the recompletion process, but anything beyond that probably also fell to sleep.
Maybe it was even MX himself who instead of integrating anything from Ansem and Xemnas that wasn't sorely needed for recompletion into himself "banished" them into the Realm of Sleep himself.
This was done possibly even in anticipation that Yen Sid would send someone into the Realm to acquire the power to reawaken lost hearts, as Xehanort himself took care about sending several hearts to sleep before.
Correct, if this time travelling power is lost according to the theory in the OP, MX would need to look into other means to reach/fetch Ansem and Xemnas.
A good comparison. Worlds, to, have hearts like any other living being and if they can fall into sleep then what's to stop the hearts of smaller beings?
I'd imagine it's the former personally. While they likely formed an identity of their own from the parts they did have, those parts themselves was taken back by the originals once recompletion began.
Now since they had no true bodies of their own and since they were born from a mixture of three hearts it then leaves them no heart to return, they are essentially without someplace to go and like a sleeping world trapped in darkness they fall into sleep.

MX is highly intelligent and has turned losses or unknown outcomes into advantages in the past, so knowing Ansem & Xemnas were lost in the revival he decides to use that to his own ends adapting them to his plan.

Talking about this now makes we wonder if the Ansem/Xemnas we saw in DDD was actually those lost hearts trapped in sleep. Joshua mentioned to Riku that he was trying to revive the TWEWY crew by gathering their dreams. MX could've pulled this stunt, in a realm of dreams, it'd be rather easy for a sleeping heart to dream itself a new physical form.
Simply said, Ansem & Xemnas in DDD were "dreaming" their physical forms.

If I recall correctly it wasn't the Realm of Sleep that bent some rules but the World that never was itself, as Nomura stated in the DDD Ultimania that how they were able to exist each at the same time has to do with some more special properties of TWTNW.

Then there's also this tidbit to keep in mind:


All this sounds strongly like Xehanort has some sort of "anchor" available which enables not only him but also his derived vessels/spawned other variants to return eventually after some time as long as this "anchor" (whatever it is) is present.
Perhaps it is really like a collective with his spread out heart-seeds as there was always at least one heart-seed (if not his main heart) physically present during the entire run of the series, meaning that all other seeds can return as long as one of them is still present physically in some vessel.
This would mean that in order to truly defeat Xehanort for good, all his spread out heart seeds need to be either neutralized or returned to his main heart and then the main heart needs to be somehow defeated.
It's true. TWTNW has more unique properties than most, what I meant by bending rules though was the RoS' unusual place outside time.

I wouldn't put that past being true. You can destroy them physically but Xehanort himself never truly dies till the anchor that is his now spread out heart is neutralized.
 
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an anchor? a collective? I like these theories, but xehanort is starting to sound more and more like the borg. "all hearts must assimilate. resistance is futile."
my god.
the puns.
the Xeha-borg.
...im terrible.
 

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an anchor? a collective? I like these theories, but xehanort is starting to sound more and more like the borg. "all hearts must assimilate. resistance is futile."
my god.
the puns.
the Xeha-borg.
...im terrible.
In a sense he kinda is. By claiming Kingdom Hearts he'd effectively be assimilating all that is since all that is hold hearts.
 

Sephiroth0812

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I can now totally see a seen were Terra is saved only for him to say "...you don't know what you've done...." then suddenly you have Ansem and Xemnas as true people standing next to their originator MX.
Save one but revive two more, it'd certainly be a "norty" thing for MX to do. Heck, depending on his actual state of mind, the Apprentice might also return that way filling in the seat now left by Terra.
Though I suppose that depends on if AX is of separate enough mind from "Ansem".

Could you imagine Terra's thoughts in that moment? On top of all the years he was used to make these three Xehanort and made to take part in the destruction they wrought only to be the means of their final and full return.
That's totally something I could see happening as it's not only very "norty" for Xehanort, it comes over as a stunt I totally can see Nomura pulling, too.
The additional spin with the Apprentice would bring another interesting thing to the table as well, as we would then have about five "true" norts: MX, YX, Ansem, Xemnas and the Apprentice.
Heck, then they could form the Nort Rangers, rofl.

It would definitely another low blow and so typical for MX to twist the knife in an already hurting wound. If by the time this happens Ven is already saved, he can try to lift Terra's spirit together with Aqua and Riku.
Could be another prime opportunity for an emotional scene with sad background music which eventually transitions into "Rage awakened" again when Terra finally has enough of Xehanort's shit for good as well, lol.

I see that makes sense. I would say you'd think that'd be quite a strain on him but if were we're going with Ansem/Xemnas is right that'd make YX the only travler. (that we know of anyway)


I think MX counts every seed as "himself" to some degree but only in a lowly sense. I'd imagine that to MX they are all "parts of me" but not truly "himself".
Its a bit of a vain outlook too since he'd consider each of them beneath him not even worth recognition of being truly of him. (another contrast to Sora who doesn't even consider Roxas a part of him but just "Roxas". sure he knows Roxas is his nobody but that's likely just a technicality to Sora)

It'd even make sense of MX having all their memories despite the separate nature since all seeds share a consciousness/link with MX. (though they aren't said to be the exact same one, kinda like a network)
Yep, and that would be one of the reasons why the "main" Xehanort keeps mostly in the background and lets the other seekers do most of the front work. It would also come in handy with MX being the definitive last boss as he would only be able to unleash his true and full might once a) he doesn't need energy anymore to pull someone out of the past into the present and (possibly) b) all his seeds are returned to one place.

Maybe the correct designation would be that he defines them as "property", his own personal property to do whatever he wants with rather than actual living beings. Xehanort has shown more than once that other living beings do not mean anything to him.
This is definitely vain, but fits his status as the total opposite of Sora in terms of how they see and experience the universe itself.
To Sora, using someone spawned from him as a tool to reach some goal or attain something for his own benefit is utterly alien, a concept he wouldn't even consider while to Xehanort, Sora treating i.e. Roxas and Xion, possibly even Ansem and Xemnas, as distinct beings with their own dreams and feelings is utterly alien too.
Both of these characters essentially take up the most extreme positions on either end of the "how to interpret life"-line.

(That Roxas is his Nobody would probably be used by Sora as a further "proof" to separate them, as he, in his idealistic, child-like heart, would probably use "Nobody" interchangeable with words such as "sibling", "brother" etc.)

Instead of actually "having" them as in actually owning them I would speculate that he has at least access to most of them as he can enter/leave the hearts infected with his seeds on his own choosing.
This "heart-network" also somewhat mirrors Sora's own ability to connect with everyone, with the big difference being just how Xehanort uses those connections and that, unlike with Sora and those connected to him, connections with Xehanort were not always forged out of free will.
Even creepier I do find the possibility that MX's actual consciousness/mind might have been lurked in any vessel at any time during KH 1, 2, CoM and Days in the background like Big Brother/NSA, witnessing what his "enforcers" were doing from the sidelines.
I.e. when Ansem in Riku's body delivers his "It is I, Ansem"-speech, MX's consciousness was present in the background and actually witnessed the events from Ansem's perspective without Ansem knowing, or when Saix talks to Axel about their plans during Days, MX's consciousness is there in the background and overhears everything.
Heck, maybe even Xemnas' talking in the Chamber of Repose was in actuality Xemnas conferring with MX's consciousness.

A good comparison. Worlds, to, have hearts like any other living being and if they can fall into sleep then what's to stop the hearts of smaller beings?
I'd imagine it's the former personally. While they likely formed an identity of their own from the parts they did have, those parts themselves was taken back by the originals once recompletion began.
Now since they had no true bodies of their own and since they were born from a mixture of three hearts it then leaves them no heart to return, they are essentially without someplace to go and like a sleeping world trapped in darkness they fall into sleep.

MX is highly intelligent and has turned losses or unknown outcomes into advantages in the past, so knowing Ansem & Xemnas were lost in the revival he decides to use that to his own ends adapting them to his plan.

Talking about this now makes we wonder if the Ansem/Xemnas we saw in DDD was actually those lost hearts trapped in sleep. Joshua mentioned to Riku that he was trying to revive the TWEWY crew by gathering their dreams. MX could've pulled this stunt, in a realm of dreams, it'd be rather easy for a sleeping heart to dream itself a new physical form.
Simply said, Ansem & Xemnas in DDD were "dreaming" their physical forms.


It's true. TWTNW has more unique properties than most, what I meant by bending rules though was the RoS' unusual place outside time.

I wouldn't put that past being true. You can destroy them physically but Xehanort himself never truly dies till the anchor that is his now spread out heart is neutralized.
Absolutely correct. That's also the main reason why I often react rather stunned when some people complain about the alleged "DBZ-revival-stuff".
This stuff has been in the series from the very beginning as it was in KH I where it was stated that worlds have hearts too and that the destroyed worlds would be restored if Ansem SoD is defeated. So if entire worlds can be returned and we also know that smaller beings (like humans) function in much the same way than a world with their hearts, the logical conclusion must be that if worlds can fall to sleep/be destroyed, other beings must be able to do the same.
If I recall correctly in KH 1 the Fairy Godmother even reassured Sora about the "spirits" stored in the summon gems, as in that they would be restored too once their world would be.
So people complaining about a concept that was within the mythos of this particular fantasy universe from the get-go really leaves me head-scratching more than once.

This would however bring up another question: If with recompletion all parts belonging to the original had to be returned, how was it possible for Xehanort to keep his seeds still spread out? Shouldn't the "parts" of Ansem and Xemnas that weren't needed for MX's recompletion and thus sent to sleep then be without a Xehanort Seed?
Or was the seed already grown out so much that it didn't count as part of the original MX anymore?

Indeed it would be a fitting route for MX to take, also since he apparently doesn't like to waste potential useful tools that could still be used in the future (like when he realized Ventus would survive despite all the shit he pulled on him, he decided on the spot to take him to Eraqus and try to follow his plan to forge the X-blade with him as ingredient).

Definitely another possibility, as it would explain the "outside of time"-issue rather nicely.

Ah, I see. Dreams most of the time do not really have a sense of time, so it's somewhat logical that the RoS is placed outside it.

Exactly. It becomes even more difficult if he should have the ability to create even more seeds by just occupying one of the already spread seeds as his main host (like he did with Young Xehanort in DDD). In that case he could spread his "insurances" out even further even when Sora and co. are closing in and destroying/returning his seeds.

an anchor? a collective? I like these theories, but xehanort is starting to sound more and more like the borg. "all hearts must assimilate. resistance is futile."
my god.
the puns.
the Xeha-borg.
...im terrible.
Lol, this nickname isn't actually that new.
The "Borganisation XIII" and "Xehaborg" were titles used for the new Organisation already around the net. ;)

But it is actually close to what a scenario "Xehanort wins" would have as an end result. He wants to use KH to reform the universe as he desires and force "total balance between light and dark". This would mean however that he has to control and "edit" each and every possible heart in existence, as a true "50%-50%" balance universe-wide could not be maintained if there is still individual will and freedom around which would make the amounts of light and dark fluctuate in every heart as long as they can feel and live for themselves.
 

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That's totally something I could see happening as it's not only very "norty" for Xehanort, it comes over as a stunt I totally can see Nomura pulling, too.
The additional spin with the Apprentice would bring another interesting thing to the table as well, as we would then have about five "true" norts: MX, YX, Ansem, Xemnas and the Apprentice.
Heck, then they could form the Nort Rangers, rofl.
It'd also give us insight at last on AX. We'd finally learn just how different or the same he was in contrast to Ansem & Xemnas.

It would definitely another low blow and so typical for MX to twist the knife in an already hurting wound. If by the time this happens Ven is already saved, he can try to lift Terra's spirit together with Aqua and Riku.
Could be another prime opportunity for an emotional scene with sad background music which eventually transitions into "Rage awakened" again when Terra finally has enough of Xehanort's shit for good as well, lol.
That would be a great moment to have. Riku would know better than anyone about Terra's guilt.

Maybe the correct designation would be that he defines them as "property", his own personal property to do whatever he wants with rather than actual living beings. Xehanort has shown more than once that other living beings do not mean anything to him.
This is definitely vain, but fits his status as the total opposite of Sora in terms of how they see and experience the universe itself.
To Sora, using someone spawned from him as a tool to reach some goal or attain something for his own benefit is utterly alien, a concept he wouldn't even consider while to Xehanort, Sora treating i.e. Roxas and Xion, possibly even Ansem and Xemnas, as distinct beings with their own dreams and feelings is utterly alien too.
Both of these characters essentially take up the most extreme positions on either end of the "how to interpret life"-line.
I viewed as the same difference really since anything that is a part of you, like say a hair or metaphysical aspects, technically are your property. It's just that in this case the property expands into it's own. xD

It's always fascinating how they are so different, similar and at the same time completely accidental. Sora was never in the plan he just stumbled into it and even MX seems baffled by him. xD

Even creepier I do find the possibility that MX's actual consciousness/mind might have been lurked in any vessel at any time during KH 1, 2, CoM and Days in the background like Big Brother/NSA, witnessing what his "enforcers" were doing from the sidelines.
I.e. when Ansem in Riku's body delivers his "It is I, Ansem"-speech, MX's consciousness was present in the background and actually witnessed the events from Ansem's perspective without Ansem knowing, or when Saix talks to Axel about their plans during Days, MX's consciousness is there in the background and overhears everything.
Heck, maybe even Xemnas' talking in the Chamber of Repose was in actuality Xemnas conferring with MX's consciousness.
Given the revelations of DDD I'd say this is likely the case. Whether his vessels had much personality of their own doesn't change that everything was MX's doing as he claims since every threat one of his selves proposed was a part of his plans.
So in that light it'd be likely at this point MX was either jumping around or spread out among them guiding or even directly controlling what they do as times.
That'd be fitting as well since who'd be more of a "friend" to a Xehanort than MX himself? x'D

Absolutely correct. That's also the main reason why I often react rather stunned when some people complain about the alleged "DBZ-revival-stuff".
This stuff has been in the series from the very beginning as it was in KH I where it was stated that worlds have hearts too and that the destroyed worlds would be restored if Ansem SoD is defeated. So if entire worlds can be returned and we also know that smaller beings (like humans) function in much the same way than a world with their hearts, the logical conclusion must be that if worlds can fall to sleep/be destroyed, other beings must be able to do the same.
If I recall correctly in KH 1 the Fairy Godmother even reassured Sora about the "spirits" stored in the summon gems, as in that they would be restored too once their world would be.
So people complaining about a concept that was within the mythos of this particular fantasy universe from the get-go really leaves me head-scratching more than once.
To be fair I think it comes up because of the popularity of DBZ and thus everyones familiarity with how everyone that dies keeps coming back which itself is something I don't want to happen. Death should feel like a consequence.


This would however bring up another question: If with recompletion all parts belonging to the original had to be returned, how was it possible for Xehanort to keep his seeds still spread out? Shouldn't the "parts" of Ansem and Xemnas that weren't needed for MX's recompletion and thus sent to sleep then be without a Xehanort Seed?
Or was the seed already grown out so much that it didn't count as part of the original MX anymore?
Well in Ansem/Xemnas' case I have an idea on that: http://forums.khinsider.com/dream-drop-distance/200358-what-if-they-also-trapped-sleep.html
As for other seeds I think that largely depends on how this seed thing works. Are they just aspects of his heart such as thoughts or other such things or actual pieces of it?
I find them being literal pieces unlikely since Nomura once said hearts aren't physical and some abstract lacking true form can't be broken off in the sense we're used to.
For all we know these "seeds" are just just a thought or heck it could be that he doesn't even break his heart off at all but rather forms a connection to his vessels similar to Sora but uses it to override them.

Then there's how the seeds work. They dont just invade a persons heart they literally become a part of it. So even though they are connected to MX they aren't technically him anymore either but a part of the being they invade.
As you say they become enough of their own heart. Logically speaking they most not count as the original MX anymore because if just versions of the same self is all MX needed he could just pull versions of himself from the past that are only 5min apart.

Your right that they should return to MX as they hold parts of him but he's obviously fine in DDD and more so appears to be aware of everything his vessels done while he was incomplete showing that he somehow may have experienced first hand through them.
 

Sephiroth0812

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It'd also give us insight at last on AX. We'd finally learn just how different or the same he was in contrast to Ansem & Xemnas.
Agreed, as this "Xehanort" is so far the most underwhelming and, as far as the story is presented, most unimportant Xehanort as well. If he's really the same as Ansem SoD though, he isn't even an own "Xehanort" at all.
Him being an own "Xehanort" though would actually allow him to occupy one seat in the new Organisation (and I would expect him to wield a version of MX's Keyblade with a science/sterile-themed Keychain).

That would be a great moment to have. Riku would know better than anyone about Terra's guilt.


I viewed as the same difference really since anything that is a part of you, like say a hair or metaphysical aspects, technically are your property. It's just that in this case the property expands into it's own. xD

It's always fascinating how they are so different, similar and at the same time completely accidental. Sora was never in the plan he just stumbled into it and even MX seems baffled by him. xD
True dat, although it is a bit weird to speak about Terra's "guilt" when in essence he isn't really guilty about anything that happened after BBS. Sure, Terra seems to be the type to apply self-blame, but unlike Riku in KH 1 Terra never actually embraced the Darkness and did bad things on purpose.

I meant it mainly as a contrast to how Sora views things as I'm sure he doesn't see Roxas or Xion as his "property", not even technically.
On that note, it would be interesting to know to which viewpoint the other characters align more. Considering the few interactions Kairi had with Roxas and Naminé (and the expanded ones with Axel in the manga), I tend to believe that Kairi tends more towards Sora's viewpoint while Ansem the Wise/DiZ tended more towards Xehanort's viewpoint at least during Days and KH 2.
Riku is a curious case, as while he often openly decried the Replica Riku and called him "fake", he also seemed to acknowledge that the Replica had a heart of his own just like he seemed to view Roxas and Xion as entities different from Sora.

TAV's views on those matters are a mystery though as they really hadn't to deal with that kind of issue yet except Ven to a degree with Vanitas, and there Ven also seemed to view Vanitas as something/someone of his own rather than a property/aspect of himself.

This seems to be another "weakness" of Xehanort actually, just like he underestimates the true power of the hearts, he also seems to have a knack for ignoring/dismissing people/beings not part of his plans. During KH 1 and 2, Sora was not part of his plans and thus he foiled them, in BBS, Aqua was not part of his larger scheme and in the end she foiled most of it as well (ok, she had help from Mickey and Ven, but Sora also had Donald and Goofy) while in DDD Lea was not part of the plan and ultimatively foiled MX's main goal.
There seems to be a belief in Xehanort that people insignificant to his plans and schemes are also insignificant as a whole and not worth paying attention to, which already foiled more than one of his plans.
If Xehanort wasn't so adept in expecting several different outcomes of a plan and have a backup plan for nearly every possibility, his ambitions would have been ended long ago.

Given the revelations of DDD I'd say this is likely the case. Whether his vessels had much personality of their own doesn't change that everything was MX's doing as he claims since every threat one of his selves proposed was a part of his plans.
So in that light it'd be likely at this point MX was either jumping around or spread out among them guiding or even directly controlling what they do as times.
That'd be fitting as well since who'd be more of a "friend" to a Xehanort than MX himself? x'D


To be fair I think it comes up because of the popularity of DBZ and thus everyones familiarity with how everyone that dies keeps coming back which itself is something I don't want to happen. Death should feel like a consequence.
I just notice, this would also answer Sora's question about why Xehanort "knew everything". He would not know everything, as Young Xehanort admits that isn't the case, but he would know most of what happened during the series because his consciousness could jump between all his seeds (after all, MX himself was incomplete, his body extinguished and Terra's body "inhabited" by Xemnas), taking a seat like in a viewbox in an opera with binoculars and dolby surround boxes, experiencing everything that happens from the sidelines/background possibly without the seeds/hosts of his seeds even noticing.
I'd say that is quite creepy...especially when imagining MX "sitting" there with that creepy grin and innerly laughing about such things like i.e. Saix planning to "betray" the Organisation together with Axel.
This would also explain why he was completely unconcerned with having Vanitas being in possession of the X-blade he created with Ventus. If Vanitas really had won the struggle with Ven, defeated Aqua and then tried to "rebel" against Xehanort by using the X-blade for himself, Xehanort would then have played his "directly control the seed"-card and crushed Vanitas' feeble attempt under his heels.

It's not so much the DBZ-comparison itself that irks me but the (proposed) sin of the KH series turning into something like it when it already was like this from the very first installment.
It is not something new to the series that was introduced only in BBS or DDD, the basic premise of it was there since the beginning of the franchise.
So if KH is "ruined" by it as some fans claim it to be, it was ruined from the very beginning.
Even disregarding the mass revival of worlds at the end of KH 1, the issue was stated and foreshadowed earlier during the game:
KH 1 said:
Fairy Godmother: This little creature lived in a world that was consumed
by darkness. When a world vanishes, so do its inhabitants.
But this one
had such a strong heart, he became a gem instead of vanishing with his
world.


Sora: Can he regain himself?


Fairy Godmother: Yes, but only his spirit. Now, watch! Bibbity Bobbity
boo!
The Fairy Godmother cast a spell on the summon gem. Sora learned the
summon spell Simba.


Fairy Godmother: Whenever you call, he will help you. If you find any
more of these, bring them to me. Don't worry, when their worlds are
restored they will return there.
Sora, please help save them.
What I ask myself is more "if they do not like this kind of idealistic series, why do they even follow it then?"

Spinning the ball back to DBZ, the issue of "everyone returning from death several times" apparently did not really hamper its vast popularity at all.
Interesting thing is, as far as I know, that DBZ (or rather Dragonball, the first incarnation of the series) was, alongside Sailor Moon, the first true success of japanese animated media in the west in the early 90's.
Funnily, Sailor Moon itself is as ridden with this death=>revival cycle as DBZ is as well, since Sailor Moon consists of five "sagas" and in each saga (most often during the beginning of the finale) at least two or three if not all of the Sailor Scouts except Moon herself die in some fashion.
Notable is that (at least in the manga), the author Naoko Takeuchi manages to make each instance equally heartwrenching despite the in the background looming "insurance" of the great silver crystal having the powers to revive.

Well in Ansem/Xemnas' case I have an idea on that: http://forums.khinsider.com/dream-drop-distance/200358-what-if-they-also-trapped-sleep.html
As for other seeds I think that largely depends on how this seed thing works. Are they just aspects of his heart such as thoughts or other such things or actual pieces of it?
I find them being literal pieces unlikely since Nomura once said hearts aren't physical and some abstract lacking true form can't be broken off in the sense we're used to.
For all we know these "seeds" are just just a thought or heck it could be that he doesn't even break his heart off at all but rather forms a connection to his vessels similar to Sora but uses it to override them.

Then there's how the seeds work. They dont just invade a persons heart they literally become a part of it. So even though they are connected to MX they aren't technically him anymore either but a part of the being they invade.
As you say they become enough of their own heart. Logically speaking they most not count as the original MX anymore because if just versions of the same self is all MX needed he could just pull versions of himself from the past that are only 5min apart.

Your right that they should return to MX as they hold parts of him but he's obviously fine in DDD and more so appears to be aware of everything his vessels done while he was incomplete showing that he somehow may have experienced first hand through them.
Hehe, looks like I managed again to give incentives for more theories...*ggg*.
This is indeed something to take note of, as while we see hearts in the series as these glowing "orbs", they aren't really true physical objects or organs at all. That "orb" is (I think) also only a sphere/corona that surrounds the "true" heart that is actually formed like a heart.
It is said that MX "cuts" Ven's heart to extract the Darkness from it and create Vanitas, yet the sphere that is ripped out of Ven's chest in BBS from the Keyblade beam that is supposed to be a "part" of his heart looks exactly the same as the other hearts we have seen so far in terms of visual style.
Even the "seed" MX blasts towards Sora in the DDD Finale looks the same.
Keyblades however can directly affect hearts so I think it depends on what one defines as a "literal" piece. It certainly isn't literal in the sense in that something physical (that you can touch) is cut off and removed from the body, but it may be literal on the plane of existence the heart in general exists as Ven's awakening station clearly shows nearly a quarter "ripped out of it".
Thoughts and memories are important parts of a heart, so it is certainly possible that the "parts" Xehanort shoots out as "seeds" are actually thoughts/memories or something similar.
The heart is a metaphysical object in KH, but it certainly has some tangible effects on a being as the above examples show.

The connection thingy could actually be the case as I now realize, as in Xehanort just "attaching" his heart to his victims, just like "baby" Sora attached his heart to Ven's in the prologue of BBS. Unlike Xehanort, Sora had no ill intent at all, but the "appearance"-influence like Sora and Ven sharing the exact same eyes still happened.
In Xehanort's case, this would equal the "attaching the strings" to the puppet.
So instead of a WLAN (MX spreading Heart-seeds that grow into Hotspots he can access) it would be just a normal LAN (no literal seeds but connected by cables(the heart-connection) to the main server (MX's heart)).

Another good point. This would explain why MX cannot just pull MX one year before BBS, MX two years before BBS etc. as members for his Organisation but needs to resort to seeding potential vessels.

Yea, that would explain why MX knows so fucking much. Not because he's omniscient, but because he's the most creepy Big Brother-variant around, peeking on events from within his vessels.
 
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