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So the DDD Jump Festa video got me thinking about Roxas an Xion... (from their breif apperances)



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Waves_Blade

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Would you say that they are... SLEEPING... inside of Sora as of the moment?

*Wink wink nudge nudge*

?
 

Sephiroth0812

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Yes, from what we know also of the interviews of the Birth by Sleep Ultimania the essences, meaning their sense of self and their own, personal memories, of the incomplete beings (Xion and Roxas in Sora, Naminé in Kairi) are essentially sleeping inside Sora's and Kairi's heart, respectively.

So it's pretty much possible they will make an appearance somehow in DDD, also because we already have Ansem SoD, Xemnas and Vanitas, who also all disappeared from the RoL running around.
 

KevVentus

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I think that's a safe conclusion. I would hope they appear in DDD in some other form with all the build up to saving them. It can be brief, but at least let us know they're still there.
 

kupo1121

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Nomura did say that DDD will connect Days, BbS, and Re:Coded, and I can't see how he would plan to connect Days without at least mentioning Xion. That said, I think if Nomura puts all of these returning characters in the game, there is a high chance he will over-complicant the story for anyone who hasn't played most of the games thus far.
 

KevVentus

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People who haven't played most of the games thus far went out the window a while ago : P

I don't expect major appearances. Just a single scene will do for me
 

Ruran

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They've been trying to, but they keep arguing over who gets to be on top. Xion says she gets tops because she had the more tragic story but then Roxas said that she's just a puppet so her opinion doesn't count and that's when she pulled out her Keyblade.
 

Sephiroth0812

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I think that's a safe conclusion. I would hope they appear in DDD in some other form with all the build up to saving them. It can be brief, but at least let us know they're still there.

As DDD is also rumored to give some answers on how they can be saved later I would also think it's very likeable for them to appear.
Even if it is only for Sora and Riku to learn of their actual pain and, like you say, to confirm they still exist.

Nomura did say that DDD will connect Days, BbS, and Re:Coded, and I can't see how he would plan to connect Days without at least mentioning Xion. That said, I think if Nomura puts all of these returning characters in the game, there is a high chance he will over-complicant the story for anyone who hasn't played most of the games thus far.

Indeed, both Blank Points and Re: Coded also point heavily in that direction.
People not keeping up with the story, not even through internet-possibilities, is surely not Nomura's fault I would think and since DDD prepares KH III if would be better to move all returning characters into a fitting position before jumping into KH III.

People who haven't played most of the games thus far went out the window a while ago : P

I don't expect major appearances. Just a single scene will do for me

Their own fault for just dismissing them all as "side stories" when they aren't. KH is more than just Sora, Donald and Goofy running around smashing heartless.
The "simple" formula has been thrown overboard ever since KH1.

They've been trying to, but they keep arguing over who gets to be on top. Xion says she gets tops because she had the more tragic story but then Roxas said that she's just a puppet so her opinion doesn't count and that's when she pulled out her Keyblade.
Lol, not bad.
 

kupo1121

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People who haven't played most of the games thus far went out the window a while ago : P

I don't expect major appearances. Just a single scene will do for me

A game that only caters to current fans would almost fail automatically unless it carried the weight of games like Super Mario or Zelda. SE always has to try to make the games understandable to those who just start playing them because that is highly unfair to people who just started playing games recently (post-KH1).
 

KevVentus

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A majority of the audience for 3D will have followed most of the series. For the people that pick it up just to have fun, I'm sure a few extra characters won't ruin the already confusing plot for them. And if they haven't been keeping up, they won't even know that they're supposed to be confused.
 

Arkrend

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They've been trying to, but they keep arguing over who gets to be on top. Xion says she gets tops because she had the more tragic story but then Roxas said that she's just a puppet so her opinion doesn't count and that's when she pulled out her Keyblade.

And did what with it? I'm guessing Roxas isn't the submissive type. That's how Sora is with Riku. The second Sora saw Riku, he got on his knees.
 

Radar

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Ya'll are nasty.

Xion and Roxas were never even supose to exist, and yet both have great importance. I think we will see more than a single scene of them, but nothing major. Probably Sora will just learn of their pain. And then at the end of the game, figure out how to properly heal it.
 

IAMSORA

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without a doubt they will all appear in some way, and sora and riku wll learn of their existence and their pain. thats not to say that they will all be saved and coexist at the same time.
 

Sky Lily

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To be honest I still see Roxas and Ventus as the same person, and agree with the theory that Roxas wasn't completely a nobody and that he was carrying Ventus' damaged heart within him. Sure, he and Ventus have different personalities to an extent; but then again, Ventus was naturally very naive and upbeat due to his pure heart of light (thanks to the darkness being forcibly removed from his heart by Xehanort.) After destroying Vanitas and the X-blade, that darkness might have returned to his heart where it was supposed to be in the first place. To me, this would explain Roxas' more serious and tense nature.

... buuut I'm getting off topic.

In short, I agree for the most part that Xion and Roxas are asleep within Sora; but not that Roxas and Ventus are separate beings.

I may be entirely wrong about all that, though xD
 

Waves_Blade

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To be honest I still see Roxas and Ventus as the same person, and agree with the theory that Roxas wasn't completely a nobody and that he was carrying Ventus' damaged heart within him. Sure, he and Ventus have different personalities to an extent; but then again, Ventus was naturally very naive and upbeat due to his pure heart of light (thanks to the darkness being forcibly removed from his heart by Xehanort.) After destroying Vanitas and the X-blade, that darkness might have returned to his heart where it was supposed to be in the first place. To me, this would explain Roxas' more serious and tense nature.

... buuut I'm getting off topic.

In short, I agree for the most part that Xion and Roxas are asleep within Sora; but not that Roxas and Ventus are separate beings.

I may be entirely wrong about all that, though xD

Well, I'm fairly certain its been "officially" said somewhere that they are in fact 2 separate beings (I'd agree to that anyway). Irregardless of that, there's a few key differences between their personalities that you can take note of:

Roxas is a lot more... "self" oriented. It's not to say selfish no, but:

"I am ME! Nobody else!"

Roxas tends to draw on his own strength rather than that of his friends as Ventus/Sora do. (Well that's kinda I suppose because he is alone at almost all of his key moments)

(And no, Xion's "death" granting him his power back in full doesn't count since she was sapping it in the first place.)

Ventus on the other hand: Is all about friendship and its strengths.

I can't say it word for word, but Ventus's quote about being willing to sacrifice himself for his friends when he faces Vanitus in his DTH is a perfect example of this. He draws power from his friends as they do from him (Aqua VS Ven/Vanitus With Ki-Blade as an example)

I do also believe though that you're right, Roxas does (did, w/e) have Ven's heart. (Since, ya know, it didn't go back to Ven and wake him up when Sora key'd himself, and since Roxas resembles Ven)

The serious/tense theory isn't that bad of an idea, but honestly IMO, Ven's heart was kinda K.O.d when he destroyed the Ki-Blade. Besides influencing appearances, I'm not sure if it's really in a condition to function/influence personality. Roxas had to find his own personality over the course of days/KH2, because he was a "Zombie" at first.

Just my 2 cents.
 

Sky Lily

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That's true, I'd never really thought about that. Roxas does seem to be far more self reliant than Ventus was, with a stronger sense of independence ... And like you said, he had to develop his own personality over the course of Days.

If he really is a separate being then, as well as Xion, I'm curious as to how Dream Drop Distance or even KHIII will go about granting hearts to two people who were never meant to exist, three including Namine. Perhaps they may find a way to create their own...
 

KevVentus

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So basically, Ventus >>>> Roxas :]

Finding hearts for Nobodies? Well then they're no better than the Organization!
 

Waves_Blade

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That's true, I'd never really thought about that. Roxas does seem to be far more self reliant than Ventus was, with a stronger sense of independence ... And like you said, he had to develop his own personality over the course of Days.

If he really is a separate being then, as well as Xion, I'm curious as to how Dream Drop Distance or even KHIII will go about granting hearts to two people who were never meant to exist, three including Namine. Perhaps they may find a way to create their own...

Its an interesting question, to be sure. I personally think Kingdom Hearts itself will have some role to play in that regard, but only time will tell.

So basically, Ventus >>>> Roxas :]

Finding hearts for Nobodies? Well then they're no better than the Organization!

Now now, no need to go into fandom wars. While I find Roxas to be my favorite character in the KH universe (Aside from Master Xehanort), I wouldn't place him above or below Ventus, I'd simply say Roxas =/= Ventus and leave it at that, they both have their perks and flaws.

Also, finding hearts for nobodies isn't inherently an "evil" goal, its the means taken towards such a goal that matters.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Well, I'm fairly certain its been "officially" said somewhere that they are in fact 2 separate beings (I'd agree to that anyway). Irregardless of that, there's a few key differences between their personalities that you can take note of:

Roxas is a lot more... "self" oriented. It's not to say selfish no, but:

"I am ME! Nobody else!"

Roxas tends to draw on his own strength rather than that of his friends as Ventus/Sora do. (Well that's kinda I suppose because he is alone at almost all of his key moments)

(And no, Xion's "death" granting him his power back in full doesn't count since she was sapping it in the first place.)

Ventus on the other hand: Is all about friendship and its strengths.

I can't say it word for word, but Ventus's quote about being willing to sacrifice himself for his friends when he faces Vanitus in his DTH is a perfect example of this. He draws power from his friends as they do from him (Aqua VS Ven/Vanitus With Ki-Blade as an example)

I do also believe though that you're right, Roxas does (did, w/e) have Ven's heart. (Since, ya know, it didn't go back to Ven and wake him up when Sora key'd himself, and since Roxas resembles Ven)

The serious/tense theory isn't that bad of an idea, but honestly IMO, Ven's heart was kinda K.O.d when he destroyed the Ki-Blade. Besides influencing appearances, I'm not sure if it's really in a condition to function/influence personality. Roxas had to find his own personality over the course of days/KH2, because he was a "Zombie" at first.

Just my 2 cents.

Very good comparison between them indeed. ;)

And yes, it was confirmed that Roxas and Ventus are completely separate beings. Some people apparently only like to throw fits because they can't cope with them looking like twins and Roxas using Ven's heart without being Ven.

Another note to take with Ventus is also that he, according to what we can deduce from Xehanort's reports, the few flashbacks we have in BBS from the times before BBS and partially additional material, has also some distinct differences even from Sora in personality, like being more emotionally vulnerable than Sora due to his screwed childhood.

Even before his darkness was removed Xehanort already noted how incredibly pure and kind Ventus was as a kid, with an enourmous potential. He also pointed out though that he was too kind-hearted for his own good.
Ven's heart was actually very full of light and his darkness relatively small. But the bigger the light the deeper/longer the shadow, that's a saying we got as far back in KH I and what applies here.
While Ven's darkness was small in amount, it was actually deep because Ventus was, beside being very kind, curious and gentle also timid, insecure and without much self-confidence at first. Darkness doesn't need to be hatred or greed, it can also grow on fear.
That was also shown during some of the flashback scenes we see when he trains with Terra and Aqua.
In fact, parts of his inner insecurity can also be still seen during the earlier parts of the game BBS itself and his overreliance on Terra.
His more "Sora"-like qualities manifested slowly over time partly due to his connection with Sora's heart and also because Terra, Aqua and Eraqus cared for him for four years and built up his self-confidence and more upbeat attitude.


That's true, I'd never really thought about that. Roxas does seem to be far more self reliant than Ventus was, with a stronger sense of independence ... And like you said, he had to develop his own personality over the course of Days.

If he really is a separate being then, as well as Xion, I'm curious as to how Dream Drop Distance or even KHIII will go about granting hearts to two people who were never meant to exist, three including Namine. Perhaps they may find a way to create their own...

If we look at them all together, Roxas got traits and quirks from both Ventus and Sora as well as developing some of his own because he started from zero, like a newborn, only with the appearance of a 14year old.
Out of the three, he is surely the most moody one, quickest to anger and like said, relying on himself.

That he is a separate being in terms of having an own mind is undeniable, yet all of them (Roxas, Xion, Naminé) acquiring (or giving birth to) own hearts is only one possible solution for them. While I would like that personally very much, to see them get a real chance after all they had to go through, we have to keep in mind it's not the only possible solution.
Never meant to exist is only one phrase that doesn't automatically include should not exist, because they clearly developed into something of their own. Ansem the Wise made the same error with his prejudice.
Important is that it has to be done in a way to allow them to live without screwing over the beings they originated from, meaning they can't have any part that is required for a physical existence that belongs to someone else.

As for creating a heart, that theme has been addressed in Re: Coded with Data-Sora, who is rumored to have developed a heart.
See for this Nomura in the Re: Coded Ultimania:
Spoiler Spoiler Show


and some (granted vague) statements from Mickey in Coded itself:
Spoiler Spoiler Show


So basically, Ventus >>>> Roxas :]

Finding hearts for Nobodies? Well then they're no better than the Organization!

If you feel that way. ;)

Ah, don't lump them together in one bowl if you don't know the "how".
The actual desire to acquire a heart and become a full existence is in itself not evil.
Why do you think Roxas fought so hard and initially refused to be merged with Sora?
He wanted to be his own existence, in Days even Naminé acknowledged in a conversation with Riku that she was astonished how fervently both Roxas and Xion were struggling to be their own persons.

Its an interesting question, to be sure. I personally think Kingdom Hearts itself will have some role to play in that regard, but only time will tell.

Now now, no need to go into fandom wars. While I find Roxas to be my favorite character in the KH universe (Aside from Master Xehanort), I wouldn't place him above or below Ventus, I'd simply say Roxas =/= Ventus and leave it at that, they both have their perks and flaws.

Also, finding hearts for nobodies isn't inherently an "evil" goal, its the means taken towards such a goal that matters.

It is indeed, also because it would delve more into the mystery about what a heart actually is and how can one be born.
If the implications of Coded can be taken literally we might indeed get a very interesting insight and expansion to the series mythology, with or without the actual Kingdom Hearts involved.

I don't see a fandom war here, KevVentus only stated a personal preference, he didn't imply that statement to be universal, at least I didn't read it that way.
It's interesting to see though having MX, probably the biggest monster in the series, as a favorite.
I do admire him for his role as a central villain, yes, that role he fills splendidly, but I cannot and never will gain any sympathy for his actions and views.
Roxas =/= Ventus is indeed the main point and them having some flaws is actually a good thing me thinks.

Exactly, the wish to exist as a complete existence itself isn't evil at all. If you would paint it as that Roxas and Xion would be "evil" as well. The way the Organization went about it was evil. (And Xemnas's hidden agenda, but that's another story). ;)
 

Waves_Blade

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Lot of good points in this post:

Another note to take with Ventus is also that he, according to what we can deduce from Xehanort's reports, the few flashbacks we have in BBS from the times before BBS and partially additional material, has also some distinct differences even from Sora in personality, like being more emotionally vulnerable than Sora due to his screwed childhood.

Even before his darkness was removed Xehanort already noted how incredibly pure and kind Ventus was as a kid, with an enourmous potential. He also pointed out though that he was too kind-hearted for his own good.

Ven's heart was actually very full of light and his darkness relatively small. But the bigger the light the deeper/longer the shadow, that's a saying we got as far back in KH I and what applies here.

While Ven's darkness was small in amount, it was actually deep because Ventus was, beside being very kind, curious and gentle also timid, insecure and without much self-confidence at first. Darkness doesn't need to be hatred or greed, it can also grow on fear.

That was also shown during some of the flashback scenes we see when he trains with Terra and Aqua.

In fact, parts of his inner insecurity can also be still seen during the earlier parts of the game BBS itself and his overreliance on Terra.

His more "Sora"-like qualities manifested slowly over time partly due to his connection with Sora's heart and also because Terra, Aqua and Eraqus cared for him for four years and built up his self-confidence and more upbeat attitude.

I completely forgot about "young" Ventus (Since ya know, he doesn't age/change physically during that time from what I can tell). A very good point to bring out that show another *key* difference between Roxas/Ven. I'm fairly certain Roxas (Days) never showed that kind of insecurity, confusion maybe, but nothing like young Ventus.

It's interesting to think about the different forms of darkness, well said on that part. I wonder though about how that would, or should, have affected Vanitas. From what I can tell, he shows no signs of Ventus's form of darkness in him. Vanitas was very confident in fact, overconfident even. Not once, I'd think, did the thought that he would lose ever occur to him. Even as he was "dying" he was still reaching out for the Ki-Blade, grasping for it to continue fighting. Perhaps its an opposites thing, since Vanitas is Ven's darkness, he was in control of it/conquered it.

If we look at them all together, Roxas got traits and quirks from both Ventus and Sora as well as developing some of his own because he started from zero, like a newborn, only with the appearance of a 14year old.
Out of the three, he is surely the most moody one, quickest to anger and like said, relying on himself.

That he is a separate being in terms of having an own mind is undeniable, yet all of them (Roxas, Xion, Naminé) acquiring (or giving birth to) own hearts is only one possible solution for them. While I would like that personally very much, to see them get a real chance after all they had to go through, we have to keep in mind it's not the only possible solution.

Quite right, it's not as if the other Organization members had an issues going about their daily "lives" without a heart. For all we know Roxas, if he does come back in DDD/KH3, could just lose Ven's heart (If its in him) along the way (Either passing it on, or it's removed forcibly) and continue as he was, albeit lacking some concrete emotions, but remembering what it was like and acting as such anyway.

Random thought and scenario, but:

Lets say Sora get's Key'd by Terranort to remove Ven's heart to renew the Ki-Blade plan. Instead, as it was before, Roxas is born. If the same thing happens to Roxas... uh... would another nobody be born from him (lol inb4 Xion's return)? I wont say a heartless would be born, since I'm assuming the heart would be taken by Terranort, but still, isn't it kind of the same?

Anyway...

Never meant to exist is only one phrase that doesn't automatically include should not exist, because they clearly developed into something of their own. Ansem the Wise made the same error with his prejudice.

Important is that it has to be done in a way to allow them to live without screwing over the beings they originated from, meaning they can't have any part that is required for a physical existence that belongs to someone else.

Well stated, can't add much else to it except to wonder how KH3 will settle the matter, if it does that is.

As for creating a heart, that theme has been addressed in Re: Coded with Data-Sora, who is rumored to have developed a heart.
See for this Nomura in the Re: Coded Ultimania:
Spoiler Spoiler Show


and some (granted vague) statements from Mickey in Coded itself:
Spoiler Spoiler Show

This reminds me, I still have to go an actually finish Coded (I spoiled the ending for myself before I got the game :p).

I think, correct me if I'm wrong, the Keyblade came back to D-Sora because he developed a connection, through Sora's friends, to Sora himself in a way.

Although, the Nomura quote makes me think that might be wrong if D-Sora did develop his own heart.

If you feel that way. ;)

Ah, don't lump them together in one bowl if you don't know the "how".
The actual desire to acquire a heart and become a full existence is in itself not evil.
Why do you think Roxas fought so hard and initially refused to be merged with Sora?

He wanted to be his own existence, in Days even Naminé acknowledged in a conversation with Riku that she was astonished how fervently both Roxas and Xion were struggling to be their own persons.

Aaand finish days to, always letting myself get distracted by other games...

Anyway, you're point is well said.

Even when Roxas had his "I see, that's why" moment, he still chose to keep on fighting for his own existence. Afterwords: Roxas can't have his own body without Sora losing his heart again, and his attempt at control failed (Man... Roxas's weakness to "surprises" always gets him). I obviously can't speak for him, but Roxas might have just thought, Sora ain't to bad of a guy, and since I don't really have any other choice, why not just go with it?

It is indeed, also because it would delve more into the mystery about what a heart actually is and how can one be born.

If the implications of Coded can be taken literally we might indeed get a very interesting insight and expansion to the series mythology, with or without the actual Kingdom Hearts involved.

Indeed, for all we know Roxas/Xion/Namine could just develop their own hearts (Or already have). Another wait and see thing.

I don't see a fandom war here, KevVentus only stated a personal preference, he didn't imply that statement to be universal, at least I didn't read it that way.

Just me being patronizing, no offense intended to KevVentus.


It's interesting to see though having MX, probably the biggest monster in the series, as a favorite.

I do admire him for his role as a central villain, yes, that role he fills splendidly, but I cannot and never will gain any sympathy for his actions and views.

Master Xehanort serves as one of my, if not the #1, favorite villains. (Not gona lie, I have an MP3 of his more impressive quotes to listen to from time to time).

It's not to say I agree with his actions/views, I can understand and admire them but don't exactly agree, but as a character I like him for who he is.

Powerful, manipulative, cunning, ruthless, ect... all wraped up into old man badass. (I actually don't like Terranort as I do Master Xehanort, simply because he loses the wise old man (Evil wise old man that is) appeal.)

"Only now... have I truely won!"
(This quote man, even as Terra beats the living crap out of him...)

One of the only things I do question about him from BBS is why didn't he try to manipulate Aqua? He doesn't even really interact with her, at all, except during the final episode. Even then its more about Terra then her. She was a threat to his plans that I didn't really see him do anything about.

There was a hint of her possibly being used as a backup if Ventus failed to play his part with the Ki-Blade, and he sent Braig to distract her, but that's all I noticed.
 
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