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So, in KH3D, is the final world...



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geisttgih

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Gonna go ahead and spoiler tag this whole thing, just to be safe.

So, in KH3D, is the World that Never Was...

Spoiler Spoiler Show
 

RoadtoDawn

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Re: *SPOILER* So, in KH3D, is the World that Never Was...

Okay...let me try to get this straight in MY head before I start trying to explain it...

And this is just MY interpretation, mind you.

Everything Xigbar said is correct. Sora WAS sleeping when he landed in TWTNW. He was knocked out at YX's "Come with Me" but that was just pushing him into a limbo of memories between Sleep 1 and Sleep 2. Then he was pushed fully into a second sleep.

Riku's whole story takes place inside Sora's dreams--but Riku doesn't know that. When he lands in TWTNW, he know's he's woken up. He's correct; he has woken from Sora's dreams, but now he's in the sleeping worlds. But I think the whole ending still takes place in the dream of the worlds, which would explain why once Sora awoke, he was still able to visit his dream eaters.

/speculation
 

geisttgih

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Re: *SPOILER* So, in KH3D, is the World that Never Was...

Okay...let me try to get this straight in MY head before I start trying to explain it...

And this is just MY interpretation, mind you.

Everything Xigbar said is correct. Sora WAS sleeping when he landed in TWTNW. He was knocked out at YX's "Come with Me" but that was just pushing him into a limbo of memories between Sleep 1 and Sleep 2. Then he was pushed fully into a second sleep.

Riku's whole story takes place inside Sora's dreams--but Riku doesn't know that. When he lands in TWTNW, he know's he's woken up. He's correct; he has woken from Sora's dreams, but now he's in the sleeping worlds. But I think the whole ending still takes place in the dream of the worlds, which would explain why once Sora awoke, he was still able to visit his dream eaters.

/speculation

Yeah, this was all my original thought as well, but in rewatching the cutscenes and hearing Riku refer to Sleep 1 as "the real world", I was thrown for a loop. I had a feeling it could be another example of a main character getting the details wrong themselves, and the slightly incorrect Journal entry for Riku reflects his mistake.

The evidence IS stacked towards it being a dream - the presence of the Dream Eaters, the way Sora dove into the world like the other Sleeping Worlds, and how Sora's clothes had not returned to their KH1 or KH2 design (the dialogue of Xigbar and YX, who ought to know, notwithstanding).

Of course, I say either KH1 or KH2 design because it's total speculation whether breaking free of the dream of TWTNW would place them in TWTNW at the time Yen Sid sent them to (pre-storm Destiny Islands) or present day.

And of course, acknowledgement of speculation :) As for the very last scene, my assumption is that the last Dive Sora undergoes is one he takes into the heart of Traverse Town, where he interacts with his Dream Eater friends within a dream. Apparently, hearts continue to dream even when not "sleeping", as Traverse Town should be restored by that point. Heck, Sora could've dove into his OWN heart, for all I know.
 

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How I understood it was that Sora did wake up when he arrived in TWTNW, but since Xehanort had chosen/marked Sora he was still in his dream clothes.
Then when Xigbar says putting him in a second sleep, I understood it as Xehanorts memories made Sora fall asleep, and then when Riku reaches that area where he fights the ABC he tries to wake Sora up, which is what Xigbar meant when he said "He almost woke you up." As in after all their trouble to make Sora fall asleep again, he was almost awoken before their plans were fruitfull.

As for Riku, still wearing dream clothes, when he enters the real world, I just figured he was still connected to Sora.
As for the Dream Eaters? I honestly have no idea. That confused me like nothing ever has in this entire series, and that is a feet.
 

Ultima Spark

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This is all explained in the Ultimania, I'll sum it up.

When the logo appears, that's the real world. Sora arrives in the real TWTNW, is forced back to sleep, and travels through a funky psychadelic dream version of the world. Riku arrives in Sora's dreams of the world, and escapes to the real world post-Ansem fight. The Dream Eaters are there in the real world (with Riku, I mean) because Sora's still sleeping.

Their clothes wouldn't change until they returned to the within the boundaries of the Mysterious Tower.
 

Seighart

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This is all explained in the Ultimania, I'll sum it up.

When the logo appears, that's the real world. Sora arrives in the real TWTNW, is forced back to sleep, and travels through a funky psychadelic dream version of the world. Riku arrives in Sora's dreams of the world, and escapes to the real world post-Ansem fight. The Dream Eaters are there in the real world (with Riku, I mean) because Sora's still sleeping.
Their clothes wouldn't change until they returned to the within the boundaries of the Mysterious Tower.

This.

I believed Riku was back in the real world but still had his Dream Eater powers because he himself is a dream eater+Sora's nightmare was still around.
 

geisttgih

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This is all explained in the Ultimania, I'll sum it up.

When the logo appears, that's the real world. Sora arrives in the real TWTNW, is forced back to sleep, and travels through a funky psychadelic dream version of the world. Riku arrives in Sora's dreams of the world, and escapes to the real world post-Ansem fight. The Dream Eaters are there in the real world (with Riku, I mean) because Sora's still sleeping.

Their clothes wouldn't change until they returned to the within the boundaries of the Mysterious Tower.

Well that... changes things.

So, Xigbar's "second sleep" WAS a second sleep of sorts, but only in number - the sleep he plunged Sora into (after "Come with me") was the second sleep Sora underwent during the story, but technically not a second layer of sleep, because he was back in the real TWTNW at that point.

Riku's heart breaks him free of Sora's dream, but that's also why he sees a metaphysical representation of Sora's heart and dreams in front of Memory's Skyscraper (as a means to dive back in if he needs to).

When I look at the whole thing in this manner, it makes sense, and it's also logical that their clothes would not have changed. I mean, why would they? If the clothes were created and attached at the moment of their first Dive into Traverse Town, then they should be a part of their real selves.

Is there any gameplay before Xigbar and YX put Sora into second sleep? I don't remember and I don't have a save file from that point... I'd be curious to see if you can see the moon of Kingdom Hearts in the sky. If you can, it would be an indication of what time period they landed in. If the moon is there (I know it's there during Sora's dream when you play as Riku), it would have to be post KH1 but pre-destruction in KH2.
 

ajmrowland

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The way I understand it is this:

Sora arrives in the TWTNW as a sleeping world, on one level of sleep.he's brought into the second sleep to separate him from Riku. Ansem SoD widened that gap, and brought Riku to the real world. That's how Mickey and Lea and Donald and Goofy could get there. the Dream Eaters are only there because Sora's still asleep and Riku was in Sora's heart and Dreams for so long. Only when Sora's awake can the Dream Eaters not exist in reality.

edit post: I think the ultimania makes more sense in that Sora is forced back to sleep.
 

Key Wielder

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geisttgih said:
Is there any gameplay before Xigbar and YX put Sora into second sleep? I don't remember and I don't have a save file from that point... I'd be curious to see if you can see the moon of Kingdom Hearts in the sky. If you can, it would be an indication of what time period they landed in. If the moon is there (I know it's there during Sora's dream when you play as Riku), it would have to be post KH1 but pre-destruction in KH2.

Not with Sora. When Riku arrives in the real TWTNW, you can move around Memory's Skyscraper with him and look; if you have already finished the game and still have that save file, just drop from Sora to Riku to see.
 

RoadtoDawn

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The way I understand it is this:

Sora arrives in the TWTNW as a sleeping world, on one level of sleep.he's brought into the second sleep to separate him from Riku. Ansem SoD widened that gap, and brought Riku to the real world. That's how Mickey and Lea and Donald and Goofy could get there. the Dream Eaters are only there because Sora's still asleep and Riku was in Sora's heart and Dreams for so long. Only when Sora's awake can the Dream Eaters not exist in reality.

edit post: I think the ultimania makes more sense in that Sora is forced back to sleep.

Wait...so does Sora first land in the real world TWTNW, or in the sleeping world? I thought it was the real world based on the post by Ultima Spark. At that point Xigbar blatantly lies and tells Sora that he's in a dream...then YX forces him back into one, where they travel through some memories then Sora enters the first sleep. As Sora chases his memories, though, he's pushed into a second sleep. Right?

At least Riku's stuff is pretty straightforward!
 

ajmrowland

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Wait...so does Sora first land in the real world TWTNW, or in the sleeping world? I thought it was the real world based on the post by Ultima Spark. At that point Xigbar blatantly lies and tells Sora that he's in a dream...then YX forces him back into one, where they travel through some memories then Sora enters the first sleep. As Sora chases his memories, though, he's pushed into a second sleep. Right?

At least Riku's stuff is pretty straightforward!
I was just reading
Ultima Spark's quote of the ultimania, and it appears yes. he actually awakens at that point for some reason.
 

geisttgih

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Wait...so does Sora first land in the real world TWTNW, or in the sleeping world? I thought it was the real world based on the post by Ultima Spark. At that point Xigbar blatantly lies and tells Sora that he's in a dream...then YX forces him back into one, where they travel through some memories then Sora enters the first sleep. As Sora chases his memories, though, he's pushed into a second sleep. Right?

At least Riku's stuff is pretty straightforward!

Here's what I gather.

Sora's arrival in TWTNW was the real world, at a point in time we can't be sure of (probably pre-KH2 era, as Sora still looks young).

YX pushes him back to sleep, and after shifting through various memories within dreams (where we see pre-BbS Destiny Islands, Traverse Town, even play through the whacked version of TWTNW), Sora firmly lands in a dream of TWTNW, and Xigbar tells him it wasn't easy putting him into a second sleep.

However, Xigbar isn't lying; technically, that sleep would be the SECOND of Sora's journey, but not a second layer of sleep, as I originally thought he meant. Rather, Xigbar and YX put him back into a sleep where, inside his dreams (or even a dream they constructed for him), they could directly flood his heart with darkness and prepare his body to become a vessel. While this dream is going on, his real self and body are being moved to Where Nothing Gathers.
 

Ultima Spark

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Not with Sora. When Riku arrives in the real TWTNW, you can move around Memory's Skyscraper with him and look; if you have already finished the game and still have that save file, just drop from Sora to Riku to see.

The moon doesn't appear in Riku's side either, so it's safe to say that they land in post-KH2 TWTNW.
 

geisttgih

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The moon doesn't appear in Riku's side either, so it's safe to say that they land in post-KH2 TWTNW.

Or, they land in TWTNW at a time before the Organization even arrived there, and before they began construction of Kingdom Hearts.

In my mind, there has to be reason why Sora and Riku still appear young, if they're indeed in the real world. Either they land in TWTNW during a period of time in which they would still have their KH1 faces, or there's some kind of time travel rule that says you're stuck with the form you take on when you first time travel until you return to your original time. It's not like Sora and Riku actually "time traveled" to present-day TWTNW; they simply "fell" out of their respective dreams into that point of time and space, no small thanks to Xigbar and YX.

Actually, the second explanation (reasoning for yours) is something I can reconcile with. I don't suppose the Ultimania sheds any light?
 

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The clothes and age they have in the game is not caused by the sleeping worlds. It's Yen Sid's magic. So unless they return to the Mysterious Tower, they're stuck in that form indefinitely. Sora arrives in the Real!TWNTW, and is playable in the Dream!TWTNW, Riku is playable in the Sora!TWTNW and eventually wakes up in the Real!TWTNW after defeating Ansem.
 

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Here's a graphical explanation of TWTNW (excuse the awful picture quality):

First, Sora arrives in the real version of TWTNW. After Sora and co.'s cataclysmic battle there at the end of KH2, TWTNW has fallen to the boundary of sleeping and waking. That, combined with the fact that TWTNW is in the Realm of Inbetween and thus doesn't always follow rules, allows Sora to pass from the realm of sleep directly into the real world according to the Organization's plan. He retains his young form because it is Yen Sid's magic which made him young, magic which won't wear off until he returns to Yen Sid's tower. Meanwhile, Riku arrives in Sora's dream of TWTNW. Thus we are here:
Spoiler Spoiler Show


Next, Xigbar taunts Sora and summons the 10 other Xehanort vessels. YMX beckons Sora, and Sora falls asleep. Sora's body is taken to the castle. Sora dreams of YMX showing him his past on the Destiny Islands and in Traverse Town. Riku remains in the same level of Sora's dreams as before. He is actually occupying the same dream level as Sora here, though they don't cross paths (yet).

Spoiler Spoiler Show


After showing Sora the DI from the distant past and closer past, Sora is shown Traverse Town and falls asleep again. So now he is dreaming of himself dreaming of TWTNW. When you play as Sora, you are in Sora's secondary dream. Riku remains in the primary dream. The people that are connected to Sora appear here and he begins to be worn down by the burden of carrying their hurt. Riku calls out to the sleeping form of Sora in his primary dream, telling him not to chase the dream, but Sora continues on in his secondary dream, and Riku battles the embodiment of Sora's nightmares, the Anti Black Coat.

Spoiler Spoiler Show


Finally, Xemnas and YMX reveal to Sora their true master plan, and after a tough fight with Xemnas Sora finally is overwhelmed and sinks into a final sleep: the abyss. As Sora's heart is filled with darkness, the darkness fills all the levels of his dreams and the master of darkness, Ansem, attacks Riku in Sora's first dream like so:

Spoiler Spoiler Show


Riku defeats Ansem and emerges out of Sora's dreams into the real TWTNW to save Sora. He finds Sora's real body in the castle with the Organization.

Does that help?
 

Sephiroth0812

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Simply amazing Ragnell, very good explanation.

It also shows just how deep Sora had actually to go in order to access the pain of the tormented ones. And the farther he went, the deeper he neared the darkness of his own heart, which grew in accordance with the pain he shouldered by meeting Naminé, Xion, Roxas and finally directly accessing Ven's damaged heart, just like Data-Naminé and Data-Roxas had predicted and warned in Re: Coded:

Re: Coded said:
????????? (Data-Roxas): And so you hurt. Well, let's hope you didn't forget my warning. That hurt will drag you into the darkness. You have to cut it loose.

Sora: ...No. The hurt is what reminds me I've forgotten. It's proof there's something there, something...important. I won't run from it. It'll stay in my heart until the day I remember again.

????????? (Data-Roxas): You'll be lost in the darkness long before then.

-----

Naminé: Right, it's not usually possible. When I first found them while repairing your memory, I thought I'd made a mistake. But all the evidence I found proved they belong in your heart, where they've been sleeping a long...long time. One day, Sora will have to call them to the surface. They're important memories...but very dangerous ones.

Mickey: Dangerous how?

Naminé: These memories are too painful. Handled the wrong way, they could damage Sora's heart--even break it. I needed you to find a way to face that kind of hurt. That's why I left the message.

And there are really people who think Coded wasn't important? Lol, the whole reason Young Xehanort, Xigbar and Xemnas could push Sora into this peril was actually foreshadowed in Coded, as were more hints of new hearts being born by Data-Sora having a heart.
 

kinxsonic

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Here's a graphical explanation of TWTNW (excuse the awful picture quality):

First, Sora arrives in the real version of TWTNW. After Sora and co.'s cataclysmic battle there at the end of KH2, TWTNW has fallen to the boundary of sleeping and waking. That, combined with the fact that TWTNW is in the Realm of Inbetween and thus doesn't always follow rules, allows Sora to pass from the realm of sleep directly into the real world according to the Organization's plan. He retains his young form because it is Yen Sid's magic which made him young, magic which won't wear off until he returns to Yen Sid's tower. Meanwhile, Riku arrives in Sora's dream of TWTNW. Thus we are here:
Spoiler Spoiler Show


Next, Xigbar taunts Sora and summons the 10 other Xehanort vessels. YMX beckons Sora, and Sora falls asleep. Sora's body is taken to the castle. Sora dreams of YMX showing him his past on the Destiny Islands and in Traverse Town. Riku remains in the same level of Sora's dreams as before. He is actually occupying the same dream level as Sora here, though they don't cross paths (yet).

Spoiler Spoiler Show


After showing Sora the DI from the distant past and closer past, Sora is shown Traverse Town and falls asleep again. So now he is dreaming of himself dreaming of TWTNW. When you play as Sora, you are in Sora's secondary dream. Riku remains in the primary dream. The people that are connected to Sora appear here and he begins to be worn down by the burden of carrying their hurt. Riku calls out to the sleeping form of Sora in his primary dream, telling him not to chase the dream, but Sora continues on in his secondary dream, and Riku battles the embodiment of Sora's nightmares, the Anti Black Coat.

Spoiler Spoiler Show


Finally, Xemnas and YMX reveal to Sora their true master plan, and after a tough fight with Xemnas Sora finally is overwhelmed and sinks into a final sleep: the abyss. As Sora's heart is filled with darkness, the darkness fills all the levels of his dreams and the master of darkness, Ansem, attacks Riku in Sora's first dream like so:

Spoiler Spoiler Show


Riku defeats Ansem and emerges out of Sora's dreams into the real TWTNW to save Sora. He finds Sora's real body in the castle with the Organization.

Does that help?

I know this is very old but could you please update this post with new pictures?:biggrin:
 
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