• Spoiler tag your spoilers, please. That includes all unknown content from the DLC that was not shown in trailers or discussed in pre-release interviews.

So go to KH3 no hint of Sokai?



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS

MelodicEnigma

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2018
Messages
106
Awards
0
Website
twitter.com
But that also makes no sense because why would crying over Kairi come off as romantic but crying over Riku doesn’t? Why is there a double-standard here?
It's not a double standard. Sora is clearly straight.
I’ll get to everything else when I get home but has Sora said he is straight? Has he shown more attraction to women over men? No. He has no set sexuality.
Are we not considering the fact that actions themselves retain a meaning by the contextual use, rather than to the action itself? Someone showing an emotional response for another, whether this by crying, holding hands, hugging, etc—these specific actions aren't, in nature, designated exclusively for either platonic or romantic meaning. They fit along the spectrum of both, and act as a bridge even, between these different sectors of relationships. What sets actions to either side of this spectrum, what give them meaning, is the context (and by extension, subtext as a part of context) in which the actions take place.

With that being said, the friendship and accompanying underlying romantic narrative between Sora and Kairi has been present from the very beginning, and it effectively acts as the defining nature of their character relationship as per characterization at this time. In effective ways, and in ineffective ways, this meaning has carried itself throughout the series multiple times. Having a discussion about its development or emphasis of effective implementation in light of criticism is one thing. But, understanding this being an integral part of their current relationship and characterization is hardly debatable—this being deemed by the context so far. Unless a deviation of the nature of their relationship is shown, that defining tone acts as the backdrop and guide to understanding all of their interactions conveyed about or to each other—as it would/does for any type of relationship, whether complex or on the nose, that is set by the story.

So, when we see Sora missing Kairi, or crying over her, or holding her hand, or expressing emotion for her—the context has set this meaning to abide by the nature of the current relationship (its current meaning), which has been established to be in the realm of friendship/romantic expression as of now. Of course, there are some actions that are more exclusive in the expression of romantic nature, true, but this not being displayed as of yet for the purpose of being concrete and on "the surface" doesn't negate or devalue the relevant elements between them that still represent the affiliating tones set for them right now.

As for the sexuality bit, it's kind of trivial at a certain point. If we're talking about the substance of romantic content displayed by Sora, this has been something that has only been conveyed towards Kairi—thus, confirming that he does have an attraction towards females at the very least right now. Does this mean his sexuality won't change from this implication, or is even currently affiliated with other types of attractions? Not necessarily, but we're also asking a series of questions and inquiries that don't have any relevance to be answered effectively in the first place outside of personal speculative glory. I'm well aware this is all in question from the idea of romance between Sora and Riku for most people. But, lets not forget that in accordance to what is set in the context right now, the actions and emotions displayed between Sora and Riku are defined by their bond as childhood/best friends. The deviation of specific romantic expression has not been contextually/subtextually integrated between the two of them to effectively mark its presence in the story away from the nature already set as precedent. This has no bearings on the drive people have to ship them, as it never will for any pair ever, but there's a separation that needs to be acknowledged.

Nomura may have made comments about change, but what this means for the characters is still yet to be told.
 
Last edited:

SerDuncan

New member
Joined
Feb 2, 2019
Messages
153
Awards
0
Age
24
Location
Wisconsin
Are we not considering the fact that actions themselves retain a meaning by the contextual use, rather than to the action itself? Someone showing an emotional response for another, whether this by crying, holding hands, hugging, etc—these specific actions aren't, in nature, designated exclusively for either platonic or romantic meaning. They fit along the spectrum of both, and act as a bridge even, between these different sectors of relationships. What sets actions to either side of this spectrum, what give them meaning, is the context (and by extension, subtext as a part of context) in which the actions take place.

With that being said, the friendship and accompanying underlying romantic narrative between Sora and Kairi has been present from the very beginning, and it effectively acts as the defining nature of their character relationship as per characterization at this time. In effective ways, and in ineffective ways, this meaning has carried itself throughout the series multiple times. Having a discussion about its development or emphasis of effective implementation in light of criticism is one thing. But, understanding this being an integral part of their current relationship and characterization is hardly debatable—this being deemed by the context so far. Unless a deviation of the nature of their relationship is shown, that defining tone acts as the backdrop and guide to understanding all of their interactions conveyed about or to each other—as it would/does for any type of relationship, whether complex or on the nose, that is set by the story.

So, when we see Sora missing Kairi, or crying over her, or holding her hand, or expressing emotion for her—the context has set this meaning to abide by the nature of the current relationship (its current meaning), which has been established to be in the realm of friendship/romantic expression as of now. Of course, there are some actions that are more exclusive in the expression of romantic nature, true, but this not being displayed as of yet for the purpose of being concrete and on "the surface" doesn't negate or devalue the relevant elements between them that still represent the affiliating tones set for them right now.

As for the sexuality bit, it's kind of trivial at a certain point. If we're talking about the substance of romantic content displayed by Sora, this has been something that has only been conveyed towards Kairi—thus, confirming that he does have an attraction towards females at the very least right now. Does this mean his sexuality won't change from this implication, or is even currently affiliated with other types of attractions? Not necessarily, but we're also asking a series of questions and inquiries that don't have any relevance to be answered effectively in the first place outside of personal speculative glory. I'm well aware this is all in question from the idea of romance between Sora and Riku for most people. But, lets not forget that in accordance to what is set in the context right now, the actions and emotions displayed between Sora and Riku are defined by their bond as childhood/best friends. The deviation of specific romantic expression has not been contextually/subtextually integrated between the two of them to effectively mark its presence in the story away from the nature already set as precedent. This has no bearings on the drive people have to ship them, as it never will for any pair ever, but there's a separation that needs to be acknowledged.

Nomura may have made comments about change, but what this means for the characters is still yet to be told.
You're using a lot of fancy schmancy big words here, but what your argument boils down to is that... the underlying romance in earlier games implies that Sora is straight. Except... nowhere in your post do we actually see some kind of subtextual romance. The rest of your post, and your argument, falls apart when you consider that at no point in any Kingdom Hearts game is it implied that Sora and Kairi's relationship is anything but platonic. We simply assign romantic subtext to scenes without any because we feel like that's what we're supposed to do. We see a male and a female character who clearly care a lot about each other, but there's absolutely no sexual tension, or romantic tension there at all. Only what we project onto the characters. As Oracle has said many times in this thread, Sora has taken similar actions towards Riku that he's taken towards Kairi. It's just that many people, used to heteronormative relationships, see Riku and Sora as "just friends". Kairi and Sora were childhood best friends as well. If Sora and Kairi can go from best friends to a romantic pairing, why can't Riku and Sora? What "romantic content" has Sora displayed towards Kairi that he hasn't towards Riku? For both of them, he cries over their disappearances, worries about their safety. He thinks about them when they're not with him. He holds their hands.

And seriously Eel, I'm disappointed. Just because Kairi is, as you say, "a GIRL" doesn't automatically make her a love interest for Sora.

I seriously ask you, if you intend to prove that there is romantic subtext in Sora and Kairi's relationship, and build your argument from there, please provide examples of clear and present proof.
 

allenleonardo

Active member
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
159
Awards
1
Location
Somewhere in Germany
  • Master of Monologues
I'm not saying that it is cannon I'm just giving evidence from the game. I'm also not saying that there is no evidence for soriku. There are different ways to interpret gestures I have made some gifs for the ending upon request and Sora does in fact pick up her hand. The other couples we see are also disney and does not share the same ways of expressing emotion as the Japanese culture. Also specifically one version of dearly beloved has Sora and Rikus themes in it and that is the one for dream drop distance. But I guess hikari could be a Sora and Kairi song because it plays during soras sacrifice and when Sora is reading Kairi's letter.
Sorry did not mean to say that you say its 100% canon, just that if the fruit is purely romantic then the implications for the fruit on the keyblade would be romantic too otherwise it would not make sense that it was purely romantic.

Sadly there are quite a bit of SoKai fans that are now believing that this ship is now canon because for them this is a confirmation. Which could be bad for them too if Nomura goes the way to never let them be together which then would lead to huge disappointments in the future. I think they should have left this scene out or replaced it with one that showed all three of them sharing the fruits thus having at least one great trio scene in this game and at least would give the feeling that Kairi cares for more people than just Sora.

What I meant was that as Kairi's a girl - IE not a boy - Sora crying over her could imply something different than him crying over Riku. Riku is his best friend. Kairi is a GIRL that he likes - so potential romantic interest can be implied in his crying for her.

Yes, 13 years ago is when we last really saw Sora being teased about/addressing his romantic interests towards Kairi. But in-game time, it's been like 3 months?

You don't think it's weird that Sora would ask "WHY HER" after Xehanort kills Kairi? That's a strange thing to ask about just a "friend" being killed. It implies that he did not want it to be her - and as messed up as it sounds - he would have rather it been someone else. That's just how I processed that statement and I took it as him realizing that he loved Kairi because he did not want it to be Kairi. Also, why would Xehanort pick Kairi to kill - out of everyone - for Sora's "motivation" if he loved/cared about Riku more?

Even though KH3 may not touch on it in the "clearest" way, I see the romance being built in KH3. It's just very subtle. Maybe it's just me, but I don't need a clear statement and a 30 minute cutscene of Sora and Kairi repeatedly stating "I love you and not in a platonic way" while kissing each other to confirm to me that Sora/Kairi are a canon romantic couple.
But Sora is an emotional character. He is not someone stoic like Riku and has no problems showing his emotions. Why should he then not show more when he is with Kairi just because she is a girl?

Also if its only a few months for them wouldnt that make it even more strange that he now suddenly starts to think and react less to her? The tipping point imo was at the end of KH2 when he reacted quite strange to seeing her again (and remember that she was also in danger by being kidnapped by the organisation). The reaction to Riku afterwards was 100% more emotional than that. He last imagined her in her KH1 form so maybe after seeing her again for the first time in months/weeks (for him) and a year for her, he may have realised that they are not the same people that they once were. Maybe traveling through the worlds in Kh3 have increased that view and may have made him realise that he is not feeling romantic love for her. At least for me he did not show that kind of love in KH3 at all. Which again is strange for someone that is so open with emotions.

Why should he not ask "why her" even if she is just a friend? We know how deeply he cares for his friends (seemingly more than he does about his parents..) so of course he would be shocked that one of his first and one of his best friends had just been killed. And not just killed in battle but defenceless from behind. Also it would be interesting to know how this line was in japanese.

Its also complelely fine if you read the scenes in a romantic way but that does not make them 100% romantic. The one that decides how it is, is still Nomura and honestly when the fruit scene might not even had happen at all..then I have a hard time to believe that he meant a lot of stuff as truly just canon romance. SE has in the end no problem with showing lovers and people that become lovers in other games of theirs. And Sora and Kairi, if they are truly going to be the canon pairing are still miles away from some like TidusXYuna or even SnowxSerah (and honestly even that was imo not the best pairing too)

Edit:

And lets not forget that Nomura himself has stated that relationships between characters can change. Sometimes you just go different ways. That of course could be a big hint towards Riku and Kairi and why they are barely interacting at all but honestly why not include Sora and Kairi in this too? Sora has done a lot and seen a lot. He himself stated that he has no clear understanding of love. And in real life too people can grow out of their feelings. So why would it be surprising that maybe he too realised that he just had a crush on her and not real deep romantic love? They are 15 years old...a lot of people in that age dont find their chosen ones already and a lot of the people may date someone that is then not forever. Of course this is a disney game and fantasy but after Nomura himself stated that he wanted it to be realistic why not that part too?

And in the end Sora had held hands with other girls too. He was the one that went to Namine to take her hands, he was the one that created the promise between them. He is the one that dances with Ariel and Rapunzel and that tries to do everything to make the time for Rapunzel more enjoyable. While with Kairi, its her that gave him the good luck charm and made him promise to come back. She was the one that started the scene with the paopu fruit (and Sora only reacting positive to it when she said that it was kinda just because a harsh battle was going to take place - in japanese she just calls it a good luck charm), she was the one that took his hand in the flying scenes. So most if not all the actions are done by Kairi..yet Sora has no problem with doing things with other females..isnt it kinda telling that quite a few people have written on the internet that they found Rapunzel and Sora to be a better written possible romance then SoKai?
 
Last edited:

MelodicEnigma

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2018
Messages
106
Awards
0
Website
twitter.com
The rest of your post, and your argument, falls apart when you consider that at no point in any Kingdom Hearts game is it implied that Sora and Kairi's relationship is anything but platonic.
Interesting.

Firstly, fancy?

Secondly, I have to ask, are you aware of how romantic subtext works in storytelling? I want to hear your answer on how this is defined in functionality and meaning within the context before moving forward past this post.

Thirdly, other than the sexuality bit, rather than making an argument, I was making a statement of what the game holds—with the assumption that you or anyone else would be aware of the set information we've all had access to this entire time. Where do we draw the line between someone conversing to "prove" something vs. bringing attention to it? I shouldn't have to make the statement that Sora's hair is brown while posting a picture of the character himself—this is more of a sign of either a lack of knowledge, or in some cases, willful ignorance.

On that note, since your stance is that there is no implication of romance between Sora and Kairi in any Kingdom Hearts game, it'll make due to provide one of the simplest, yet effective examples that clearly alludes to that presence between them:

"What a romantic story!" — Olette, on Kairi telling the Twilight Town gang about her journey to find Sora.

With it being blatantly pointed out, it's rather on the surface (perhaps due to simplistic sake overall), but when a moment like this is considered along with the full, contextual ground work of Sora and Kairi's character relation in previous games (and even, the exact same game), the meaning conveyed here frames that particular part of their relationship and interactions.
 

SerDuncan

New member
Joined
Feb 2, 2019
Messages
153
Awards
0
Age
24
Location
Wisconsin
Interesting.

Firstly, fancy?

Secondly, I have to ask, are you aware of how romantic subtext works in storytelling? I want to hear your answer on how this is defined in functionality and meaning within the context before moving forward past this post.

Thirdly, other than the sexuality bit, rather than making an argument, I was making a statement of what the game holds—with the assumption that you or anyone else would be aware of the set information we've all had access to this entire time. Where do we draw the line between someone conversing to "prove" something vs. bringing attention to it? I shouldn't have to make the statement that Sora's hair is brown while posting a picture of the character himself—this is more of a sign of either a lack of knowledge, or in some cases, willful ignorance.

On that note, since your stance is that there is no implication of romance between Sora and Kairi in any Kingdom Hearts game, it'll make due to provide one of the simplest, yet effective examples that clearly alludes to that presence between them:

"What a romantic story!" — Olette, on Kairi telling the Twilight Town gang about her journey to find Sora.

With it being blatantly pointed out, it's rather on the surface (perhaps due to simplistic sake overall), but when a moment like this is considered along with the full, contextual ground work of Sora and Kairi's character relation in previous games (and even, the exact same game), the meaning conveyed here frames that particular part of their relationship.
Ohhhhhh boy.

First of all, I simply stated that the words you were using were "fancy" as a way to describe what I felt your post was conveying; An attempt to confuse others by crafting an argument using nothing but flowery language and no real substance.

Secondly, I have to laugh. Your condescending attitude is hilarious. You act as though you are intrinsically more knowledgable than I am, simply because I disagree with you. It's the classic "oh shit, I'm losing, better call them stupid to bolster my points", and it's insulting. Here's an example of romantic subtext. The first time we are introduced to Riku in the entire series, he is reaching out to Sora with a slight smile on his face. Sora desperately reaches out to grab his hand as these lyrics play "You smiled at me and said "I love you, but does that mean I have to meet your father?". While this is less an example of subtext, considering how blatant it is, Sora and Riku throughout the Kingdom Hearts series have a follow through involving their hands. Many scenes show how far apart their hands are, representing the growing gulf between them. Throughout the entirety of Kingdom Hearts, Sora looks at his hands, possibly remembering that time Riku slipped through his fingers. Riku mentions this same feeling, realizing that he had a wodnerful friend, maybe even something more, but he let it go. Whenever Riku thinks about Sora in KH3, he clenches his fist. Dearly Beloved is canonically Sora and Riku's hearts beating together. I mean, I could go on. Subtext, romantic or otherwise, is informed by a variety of different factors. The way characters look at each other, the way characters interact, what they say, and can even be applied to non-diagetic pieces of media, such as the music. I hope that's satisfactory enough for you. My apologies if I wasn't able to describe it well enough for you.

Thirdly, you have still yet to show me, or anyone else, any sort of romantic subtext. All you have presented is another character, with limited knowledge mind you, assuming that Sora and Kairi's relationship is romantic. We don't know what Olette's mindset is and how she feels about relationships. For all we know, she's "shipping" Sora and Kairi together because their story reminds her of fairy tales she was read as a child. Her point of view on the subject, while certainly interesting, offers little in the way of "proof", much less "blatantly" as you so crudely put it. Olette has had very little interaction with Sora and Kairi, and has never seen them as a pair. For all we know, Sora telling her about his quest to find Riku may have also been seen as romantic. Now, if you had presented someone like, say, Donald or Selphie or Riku stating that Sora's quest to find Kairi was romantic, you would have much more of a leg to stand on. Those individuals have had great experience with at least one if not both of the individuals, and has seen their interactions. Unlike Olette, who has had all of two conversations with Sora and only one with Kairi. As it stands, you keep referring to the "full, contextual ground work or Sora and Kairi's character relation in previous games" without actually defining that. You have yet to mention a point of romantic subtext, blatant or otherwise.

Frankly, I think you're talking out of your ass.
 

allenleonardo

Active member
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
159
Awards
1
Location
Somewhere in Germany
  • Master of Monologues
The thing is that this quote is from KH2. A game that at least still had romantic hints for both sides. (And if we take such quotes as confirmation..doesnt that make Rikux Kairi canon too because the other kids on Destiny Islands in KH1 were quite sure that there was love between those two) Yet KH3 lacks most of those. The only scenes that could count as romantic are the sharing scene (which is strange from Soras side) which may not have even made it in the game at all and was not 100% meant to be romantic. And then various scenes of handholding. Scenes that have most of the time being started by Kairi too.

The crying or breaking down after her death is not romantic. He does that for others too, thats just how his whole character is. (And lets not forget that they would still be best friends even without love, so him breaking down makes sense there too)

Unlike confirmed characteristics or looks of characters, romantic hints in a game are subjective as long as the pairing is not confirmed or if they are not stronger. This is especially the case if you have a character like Sora that has no problems with hugging people, crying and having other emotional outbreaks. Then one cant forget that you might just get shallow hints throughout series just to keep people hocked or speculating on it. (And the writer can change his opinion too as long as nothing is 100% confirmed)


In the end there were more hints about this pairing in KH1 and KH2 and maybe CoM. But all the newer games seems to go towards the route that she is either not even truly there or not mentioned much by Sora at all. If they wanted to give these undertones to show their love they should have done this in every game. Otherwise imo it might hint that Nomura changed his mind on that and Sora at least got over his crush.
 

MelodicEnigma

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2018
Messages
106
Awards
0
Website
twitter.com
Ohhhhhh boy.

First of all, I simply stated that the words you were using were "fancy" as a way to describe what I felt your post was conveying; An attempt to confuse others by crafting an argument using nothing but flowery language and no real substance.

Secondly, I have to laugh. Your condescending attitude is hilarious. You act as though you are intrinsically more knowledgable than I am, simply because I disagree with you. It's the classic "oh shit, I'm losing, better call them stupid to bolster my points", and it's insulting. Here's an example of romantic subtext. The first time we are introduced to Riku in the entire series, he is reaching out to Sora with a slight smile on his face. Sora desperately reaches out to grab his hand as these lyrics play "You smiled at me and said "I love you, but does that mean I have to meet your father?". While this is less an example of subtext, considering how blatant it is, Sora and Riku throughout the Kingdom Hearts series have a follow through involving their hands. Many scenes show how far apart their hands are, representing the growing gulf between them. Throughout the entirety of Kingdom Hearts, Sora looks at his hands, possibly remembering that time Riku slipped through his fingers. Riku mentions this same feeling, realizing that he had a wodnerful friend, maybe even something more, but he let it go. Whenever Riku thinks about Sora in KH3, he clenches his fist. Dearly Beloved is canonically Sora and Riku's hearts beating together. I mean, I could go on. Subtext, romantic or otherwise, is informed by a variety of different factors. The way characters look at each other, the way characters interact, what they say, and can even be applied to non-diagetic pieces of media, such as the music. I hope that's satisfactory enough for you. My apologies if I wasn't able to describe it well enough for you.

Thirdly, you have still yet to show me, or anyone else, any sort of romantic subtext. All you have presented is another character, with limited knowledge mind you, assuming that Sora and Kairi's relationship is romantic. We don't know what Olette's mindset is and how she feels about relationships. For all we know, she's "shipping" Sora and Kairi together because their story reminds her of fairy tales she was read as a child. Her point of view on the subject, while certainly interesting, offers little in the way of "proof", much less "blatantly" as you so crudely put it. Olette has had very little interaction with Sora and Kairi, and has never seen them as a pair. For all we know, Sora telling her about his quest to find Riku may have also been seen as romantic. Now, if you had presented someone like, say, Donald or Selphie or Riku stating that Sora's quest to find Kairi was romantic, you would have much more of a leg to stand on. Those individuals have had great experience with at least one if not both of the individuals, and has seen their interactions. Unlike Olette, who has had all of two conversations with Sora and only one with Kairi. As it stands, you keep referring to the "full, contextual ground work or Sora and Kairi's character relation in previous games" without actually defining that. You have yet to mention a point of romantic subtext, blatant or otherwise.

Frankly, I think you're talking out of your ass.
That "example" of romantic subtext between Sora and Riku is not something that is integrated within the game, rather, the meaning of romance there is being applied by your own perspective of romance specifically. Your application there is literally the reason why this conversation is happening in the first place. People trying to distinguish the meaning of actions that are shared between the platonic and romantic realm in the context, and gain a sense of truth outside of personal interpretation or appliance of meaning. That's not the story telling you that there is specifically romantic implication there, you're just saying it is on your volition.

Subtext, as you stated, is communicated beneath the context through many ways, in many moments that actually work in tandem with the context in full. However, what determines the type of Subtext being inferred is the context in which the underlying meaning is set—this is typically what leads to specific types of subtext, such as Romantic Subtext being distinguishable from other meaning. The context is what allows you to understand how to distinguish the type, and to do this very specific thing, it has to use very specific elements to convey that particular meaning. Romance Subtext particularly can be done in a myriad of different ways. A character pointing out romantic undertones between other characters, even in light of teasing or observation, has always been an effective way of conveying that type of meaning between two characters—sometimes leading to the point of the characters addressing that elephant in the room eventually in the series, and most often or not, is represented along with other interactions as well around that frame that has been introduced. If someone mentions romance, it doesn't matter who the hell it comes from—the fact is that contextually, this is something that is pointed out and continually represented regardless in the context.

SerDuncan, you're blatantly choosing to dismiss this contextually integrated example that specifically points out the romantic nature between the characters because it doesn't fit your own, personal perspective. So, even based on your words about the importance of who, will you dismiss this too:

"I bet you want us to take a hike so you two can be ALONE, huh?" — Selphie in CoM about Sora and "Namine" (Kairi, if you don't understand the plot and parallels of the game)

Or

"Aw, I know who you're thinking about!" Donald, after Goofy points out Sora is blushing after looking at Will/Elizabeth. This is paralleled with the other moment of Sora observing Jack/Sally, and we get a physical look at him thinking of Kairi.

I'd also like to point out, KH2's ending of Riku recognizing that the letter written from Kairi was for Sora is also a nod at his own acknowledgment of the distinguishing bond that Sora and Kairi share.

I'm going to be blunt: I don't really care about what you think personally when it comes to this as I see you're circumventing information in a personal way. That's for you foremost, and if at a point i'm interested in what you think, I'll let you know, the same as I did about your understanding of subtext. But, there's a difference between speaking of things in what the context is presenting vs. what we feel from it's presentation personally. You're using your own point of view to evaluate a character pointing out romantic undertone as nonexistent when the context shows them literally doing just that. I'm not going to post blatant examples just for you to dismiss them with your subjective, denial approach to understanding and evaluating material from the game. Again, there's a separation from sharing personalized, interpretive stances on material and pointing out concrete details introduced within the game. These can blend, but there is a line that is drawn at a given point.

And to add to allenlenoardo, the quotes above are distinguishable from the praises Riku gained on Destiny Island because the context makes a point in separating the nature of Sora's relationship with Kairi from Riku by utilizing the myth of the Paopu Fruit, this to allude to both Sora and Kairi wanting that meaning in each other—this all being relative to the first game on its own. We've learned way back in BBS that the Paopu Fruit isn't strictly a romantic gesture, and yet, we see that the meaning of this is thus traced to those who actually share it. This in tandem with the other material, this provides another form in which the romantic subtext works its way throughout the series for Sora and Kairi's relationship as they have their own representation for the Paopu Fruit—the same that the BBS trio has their own as well. Understanding romantic subtext being integrated in a story doesn't come down to characters becoming "canon" in the sense of dating, kissing, or proclamations of love, nor is this something that is only left to subjectivity (this is true for subtext in general, it functions as informational truths as well). This can all be done prior or even without that, this has been done in creative media for a very long time.
 
Last edited:

SerDuncan

New member
Joined
Feb 2, 2019
Messages
153
Awards
0
Age
24
Location
Wisconsin
I pity you. You claim not to care what I think... yet you've spent a sizable amount of time in this thread attempting to prove me, and others, wrong. If you don't care... why are you making such an effort? I'm so glad you were willing to step down off your throne to grace me with your interest in my opinions, sir. Thank you so much for explaining to me the plot and parallels in COM, I was utterly lost about the connection between Namine and Kairi until you pointed it out. Throughout this discussion, I've treated your responses with respect, and yet you constantly "speak" down to me as if you have all the answers, and I do not.

Your explanation of Romantic subtext, in this context, is simply one way to explore romantic context. You've simply omitted many other popular uses of subtext because they don't support your argument as well. I can't believe I have to explain this... but another character simply inferring that two other people are in love might lend credence to that pairing, but it is hardly substantial context... let alone a representation of another concretely romantic. A close friendship between a boy and girl is often misconstrued as a romantic relationship; this happens in film and literature all the time. Harry Potter and Hermione were frequently misconstrued as a couple simply due to the close nature of their friendship. Does that mean that every example of another character pointing out their friendship could potentially be romantic is some kind of subtext? You're twisting interactions that happen in the game to disregard the possibility of any other option.

The Papou fruit has never been stated to be romantic. It's always been a way for two people to tie their destinies together. That's why Aqua uses the symbol of the Papou fruit in her platonic friendships with Terra and Ven. They share a metaphorical Papou fruit together not in any kind of romantic way, but simply to tie their friendship even closer. While it could certainly be interpreted as a romantic gesture, nothing that we have been shown throughout the entire series, subtextually or blatantly, has said that the Papou sharing is romantic. That's your own perspective and your own bias bleeding through. Speaking of that... remember when Riku threw the Papou fruit to Sora, and told him to try it? hmmmm... must just be a coincidence.

It's frustrating that you're using sound logic, and yet denying examples that both disprove your theories, as well as lend credence to other potential romances. You don't like my symbolism? The opening isn't enough of a subtext for you? Despite there being many examples in other forms of creative media of this EXACT type of context for a relationship? Well that's fine.

I'm at work currently, so I can't take the time necessary to prepare my full counterargument. But I will be back. I don't even ship Sora and Riku that hard. Heck, I don't really ship at all. But I do find hypocrites and people who use weak arguments to be incredibly frustrating, so I'll come back to take another crack.
 

MrFranklin95

Active member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
408
Awards
0
Age
24
Location
Los Angeles, California
Website
www.facebook.com
God, I seriously can't believe this is even being debated.

Sora and Kairi is a thing, poorly written or not. I feel like this being doubted purely because of politics of Sora/Riku and also Noruma's general bad writing or lack of caring about certain characters in the way he does others. But just because he does that, doesn't mean certain subtext isn't given to each characters relation to each other and shown to us in very obvious context and anyone ignoring that I feel like it doing it out of pettiness, if I'm seriously being honest here.

"Well then give me evidence" The entire series as a whole and Sora and Kairi interactions with each other. I don't know how I can provide the correct evidence when the series is literally just spelling it out for you, sometimes in incredibly blatant ways that I'm sure many people have gone over a millions times and other fans just brush over for the sake of a popular headcanon.

And before anyone assumes, this isn't a situation of having of straight lens because I've always supported LGBTQ relationships, especially in children's media where I feel it needs to be addressed without parents flipping their s**t over something as harmless as loving another person. But only when its given clear subtext and intention. There isn't any with Sora and Riku. This isn't something up for debate because that has never been the subtext beteeen these two at all, even when Sora was crying for Riku in KH2, ignoring the fact that he hadn't seen his best friend in over a year and a half and might as well have been assumed dead up until that point. Yes, even in DDD, which I dub the Sora/Riku show, I never got that intention at all from the story and their relationship.

But with Sora and Kairi, theres no platonic subtext going on at all between them in any scene, to the point where it kind of thrown in your face, which is why the relationship is a lot of the times very badly written as of now compared to its early days because they don't talk like real people. I'm not denying the criticisms of the relationship itself but..like, I'm not blind.

I'm sorry guys but there is blatant romantic subtext throughout all these games when it comes to Kairi and you can't just straight up deny it just because its badly written and poorly paced out over the course of the series; yes, even in the dry as a bone scene of the paopu fruit, when Sora and Kairi look at each other in a way they don't look at anyone else in the whole game, you can't read that as anything else but romantic subtext. And its not just something you can go one way or the other, there is obvious body langauge being acted out, how chatacters say dialogue to each other, or subtle touches that make the difference.

Would I doubt that one relationship is stronger then other on a narrative level due to lack of focus on the other relationship? Yeah, no one is denying that. But that isn't because of Sora and Riku having a stronger bond, its because Noruma priorities one over the other, which makes people confused when Sora and Kairi is suppose to be the stronget bond because Noruma ... news flash.. is a bad writer. Thats it. But that doesn't mean the chatacters relations to each other isn't clearly defined in the narrative.

I mean, dang it guys, Sora literally collpased himself on Kairi, full body to protect her from Terranort without the thought of using his keyblade, something he has never done for anyone in the whole series, in the heat of battle no less, and some fans are still asking for "clear evidence". WTF

Sorry but I feel like some people here just don't want to see things out of pure salt for the slight possiblity of a ship that doesn't exist because of the politics of the situation. I would have no problem with a Sora/Riku if thats what was clearly given to us but its not. Its a very deep friendship, bordering on brotherhood but there has been nothing, NOTHING given to us that would tell us more other then Noruma just focusing on one relationship over another. And considering this is a series about the power of friendship, Im not completely surprised by that and why these narratives are conflicting with each other.

And yes, there is a difference, even going beyond Kairi just being a girl and us assuming Sora is straight. There interactions are vastly different then the ones with Riku under the surface because that was the developers clear intention and is still seen in KH3. And if Noruma is deciding to get over it in the future games, then he has done a poor job of setting that up in the long run. If Sora just suddenly drops Kairi and says something like "I like you just as a friend" I would feel very confused given everything we've seen prior. If Kairi was just a crush, Sora would never act the way he does in this game towards her that differs from everyone else in the rest of the game.

And yes, if Riku was a girl, I would feel the exact same way about it. I've had very deep friendships with women in my life that I would compare to Sora and Riku. Now could it be the same for Kairi? Maybe but given the past games and KH3 still giving it clear focus despite bad writing, I just don't see it as anything but romance brooming under the surface and I don't see how anyone else can't unless there's just covering their eyes and just don't want too and keep using the excuse of Noruma's poor pacing, poor decision making, and lack of focus as evidence for something hidden under the surface. If that wasnt the case, It would've been Riku on the tree branch at the end instead of looking out.

And look, we can debate all day long about how this is only because Disney is involved and Disney doesnt want to step their toes, let only their feet, into homosexual relationships and rather pay lip service to the community and you would have a valid argument on that side and the only reason Noruma can't go full force is because of that. But if that was the case, then KH3 Kairi and all the romantic subtext should've been pushed to the side and he could've done it. Other properties have done it. Adventure Time did it for years without conflicting narratives that got in the way of it or contradicted it. If Noruma wanted too, he could've just dropped it outright because he has shown to not give a flying F about what fans want and just does whatever he wants. And if he wanted too, Sora and Riku would've veen the clear relationship focus of KH3 but it isn't, not even the context of "I want to do this but certain audience will be mad for ignorant reasons, so I have to do it in subtle ways" but he didn't do that. So I can only come to the conclusion that Sora and Kairi is the direction this series is going foward with.


I don't know man, I'm sorry to be harsh and I know people are gonna jump down my thoart now (but I opened the can of worms so...eh) which is why I tend to avoid shipping dicussion completely because its mostly filled with people who make up s**t or don't want to see s**t in favor of a ship that isn't being presented to us in the canon material. And I don't want to get in the way of anyone's fun unless they're trying to change a nraative into something that it isn't and denying something that clearly is, its not just not done very well.
 
Last edited:

Griewer

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2015
Messages
239
Awards
0
Location
Daybreak Town
God, I seriously can't believe this is even being debated.

Sora and Kairi is a thing, poorly written or not. I feel like this being doubted purely because of politics of Sora/Riku and the general possiblities of that and also Noruma's general bad writing or lack of caring about certain characters in the way he does others. But just because he does that, doesn't mean certain subtext isn't given to each characters relation to each other and shown to us in very obvious context and anyone ignoring that I feel like it doing it out of pettyness, if I'm seriously being honest here.

This isn't a situation of having of straight lens because I've always supported LGBI relationships, espeiceally in childrens media where I feel it needs to be addressed without parents flipping their s**t over something as harmless as loving another person. But only when its given clear subtext and intention. There isn't any with Sora and Riku. This isn't something up for debate because that has never been the subtext beteeen these two at all, even when Sora was crying for Riku KH2, ignoring the fact that he hadn't seen his best friend in over a year and a half and might as well have been assumed dead up until that point. Yee, even in DDD, which I dub the Sora/Riku show, I never got that intention at all from the story and their relationship.

But with Sora and Kairi, theres no platonic subtext going on at all between them in any scene. Like I'm sorry, there is blatant romantic subtext throughout all these games when it comes to Kairi and you can't just straight up deny it just because its badly written and poorly paced out over the course of the series; yes, even in the dry as a bone scene of the paopu fruit, when Sora and Kairi look at each other in a way they don't look at anyone else in the whole game, you can't read that as anything else but romantic subtext. And its not just something you can go one way or the other, there is obvious body langauge being acted out, how chatacters say dialogue to each other, or subtle touches that make the difference.

Sorry but I feel like some people here just don't want to see things out of pure salt for the slight possiblity of a ship that doesn't exist because of the politics of the situation. I would have no problem with a Sora/Riku if thats what clearly given to us but its not. Its a very deep friendship, bordering on brotherhood but there has been nothing, NOTHING given to us that would tell us more other then Noruma just focusing on one relationship over another. And considering this is a deries about thenpower of friendship, Im not completelt surprised by that. And yes, there is a difference, even going beyond Kairi just being a girl and us assuming Sora is straight. There interactions are vastly different then the ones with Riku under the surface because that was the developers clear intention and is still seen in KH3. And if Noruma is deciding to get over it in the future games, then he has done a poor job of it in the long run but that context is still very much there in KH3.

And yes, if Riku was a girl, I would feel the exact same way about it. I've had very deep friendships with women in my life that I would compare to Sora and Riku. Now could it be the same for Kairi? Maybe but given the past games and KH3 still giving it clear focus despite bad writing, I just don't see it as anything but romance brooming under the surface and I don't see how anyone else can't unless there's just covering their eyes and just don't want too. If that wasnt the case, It would've been Riku on the tree branch at the end instead of looking out.

And look, we can debate all day about how this is only because Disney is involved and Disney doesnt want to step there toes, let only their feet, into homosexual relationships and rather pay lip service to the community and you would have a valid argument on that side and the only reason Noruma can't go full force is because of that. But if that was the case, then KH3 Kairi and all the romantic subtext should've been pushed to the side and he could've done it. Other properties have done it. Adventure Time did it for years without conflicting narratives that got in the way of it or contradict it. If Noruma wanted too, he could've just dropped it because he has shown to not give a flying F about fans want and just does whatever he wants. And if he wanted to too, Sora and Rikunwould've veen the relationship focus of KH3 but it isn't. So I can only come to the conclusion that Sora and Kairi is the direction this seties is going towards.


I don't know man, I'm sorry to be harsh and I know people are gonna jump down my thoart now (but I opened the can of worms so...eh) which is why I tend to avoid shipping dicussion completely because its mostly filled with people who make up s**t or don't want to see s**t in favor of ship that isn't being presented to us in the canon material.
Good luck with that Sora-Kairi direction. :'D
Will be hard to achieve it considering the fact that Nomura doesn't really like Kairi enough to even give her 10 minutes of showtime without getting kidnapped or killed in one way or another.
 

MrFranklin95

Active member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
408
Awards
0
Age
24
Location
Los Angeles, California
Website
www.facebook.com
Good luck with that Sora-Kairi direction. :'D
Will be hard to achieve it considering the fact that Nomura doesn't really like Kairi enough to even give her 10 minutes of showtime without getting kidnapped or killed in one way or another.
Believe you and me, after KH3, I have very little faith in the pacing of this relationship, or lack of one considering its all just romantic subtext at this point, is going to get any better.

Even still, Sora/Kairi is the thing the series is moving forward with. Never said it was good or well written. It isn't.
 

Griewer

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2015
Messages
239
Awards
0
Location
Daybreak Town
Believe you and me, after KH3, I have very little faith in the pacing of this relationship, or lack of one considering its all just romantic subtext at this point, is going to get any better.

Even still, Sora/Kairi is the thing the series is moving forward with. Never said it was good or well written. It isn't.
I'd say the series is going forward the same way it did. Without outright making any decisions, and letting its fandom wage their endless OTP war on the forums. And this might be the best outcome we can hope for. Because half of the people will not accept the fact that there are indeed hints at a Soriku ship, while the other half won't accept that there are indeed hints at the Sokai ship.
 

MelodicEnigma

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2018
Messages
106
Awards
0
Website
twitter.com
Your explanation of Romantic subtext, in this context, is simply one way to explore romantic context. You've simply omitted many other popular uses of subtext because they don't support your argument as well. I can't believe I have to explain this... but another character simply inferring that two other people are in love might lend credence to that pairing, but it is hardly substantial context... let alone a representation of another concretely romantic. A close friendship between a boy and girl is often misconstrued as a romantic relationship; this happens in film and literature all the time. Harry Potter and Hermione were frequently misconstrued as a couple simply due to the close nature of their friendship. Does that mean that every example of another character pointing out their friendship could potentially be romantic is some kind of subtext? You're twisting interactions that happen in the game to disregard the possibility of any other option.
Again, the context is what defines the subtext and gives it meaning. Any situation that has subtext abides by this to explain how it is being utilized. Nothing I have said has negated this, but i'll bite.

If romantic subtext is presented to a pair of people in the context, this is still represented in the story regardless of the end result—which, you've already taken the stance to blatantly deny its existence when its clearly being used anyway. But that's the thing, it being used and having a presence isn't weighed in existence by whether you consider it substantial or not. Romantic Subtext works its way into a story by utilizing themes and meaning of romance. For Romantic Subtext, however, the context is what gives this its credible meaning and determines how it'll function in the story, and in the case of Harry and Hermoine, romantic subtext is used as a device for the worry of Ron's disposition with them as he sees an illusion of them kissing. The context then is worked in a way that it is confirmed that they don't indeed feel that way about each other, but the subtext and utilizing of the romantic meaning was still there as way of character development for the trio. Subtext isn't just about confirming something in a positive way, but it's about alluding to the ideal of that meaning overall. It's up to the context to give way in this meaning's implementation and function in the story. Romantic subtext can be portrayed between characters in ways that reveal the true relationship that those characters have or are hinted to have in tandem with the presentation of the story—which could be either a positive or negative result.

I intentionally described one way to use that type of romantic subtext because it applied to the example that I presented, which, has been represented in many different scenarios for Sora and Kairi throughout the series, as per the examples I mentioned. In what way does this represent me omitting other forms of romantic subtext? Are you just choosing to ignore what I'm saying and apply bullshit logic to justify yourself? I don't care about talking about possibilities from a personal perspective, I'm just stating what is integrated within the context in that specific scenario.

So, where exactly did I twist the interactions of the characters? Where have I said a character has done something that hasn't been told in the story? Point it out, please, so that I can correct you.

Also, you want to criticize others for seeing Sora and Kairi as romantic per the formulaic, traditional storytelling tropes between them that have been used as romantic themes in other media, yet you also want to use other forms of media to "confirm" a relationship that fits your bidding? That is hypocritical. I don't believe there's anything wrong with making comparisons to other forms of media, as the understanding of common narrative motifs and tropes being purposely used by authors makes this a justified approach. But, at first it works only as an approach, as every context is still its own, so what truly defines the meaning of something will still be the story itself and how it is applied and represented. (Again, back to the origin of the conversation, which is the identification of actions and words between characters).

The Papou fruit has never been stated to be romantic. It's always been a way for two people to tie their destinies together. That's why Aqua uses the symbol of the Papou fruit in her platonic friendships with Terra and Ven. They share a metaphorical Papou fruit together not in any kind of romantic way, but simply to tie their friendship even closer. While it could certainly be interpreted as a romantic gesture, nothing that we have been shown throughout the entire series, subtextually or blatantly, has said that the Papou sharing is romantic. That's your own perspective and your own bias bleeding through. Speaking of that... remember when Riku threw the Papou fruit to Sora, and told him to try it? hmmmm... must just be a coincidence.
You're still not actually negating what I'm saying. The Paopu Fruit explicitly is the symbol of intertwined destinies and remaining a part of each other's lives. This is an overall concept that could mean anything to those who use it—thus this can be done either romantically or platonically—it doesn't matter outside of those who choose to share it. I stated this, so again, you're twisting MY words to befit your own thought process. If two characters who have had romance utilized in their characterization share it, the meaning is being used to represent their relation to each other—the same way that an action such as hugging, which isn't inherently romantic, can do the same. The meaning comes from those who use it. This doesn't mean the Paopu Fruit is an explicit romantic gesture, as I stated, but this all depends on its use between those who choose to be represented by it. If the goal was to emphasize that the Paopu Fruit sharing wasn't inherently romantic, then that has been accomplished long before KH3. But, this doesn't mean that those who then undergo the sharing have a platonic relationship. It's not that type of If, Then scenario. Nomura's decision on whether to heavily imply romance to this scene represents that need to not have the Paopu Fruit ultimately be the symbolism of romance (the fact that this was even considered straight forwardly shows the presence of romance between Sora and Kairi, and how the Paopu Fruit was used for them in KH).

Also, Riku throwing it at Sora, explaining it's meaning, and then teasing him about wanting to try it—this is still an allusion to Sora sharing it with Kairi. (not to mention Riku teasing him about it again before their race the day after)

It's frustrating that you're using sound logic, and yet denying examples that both disprove your theories, as well as lend credence to other potential romances. You don't like my symbolism? The opening isn't enough of a subtext for you? Despite there being many examples in other forms of creative media of this EXACT type of context for a relationship? Well that's fine.

I'm at work currently, so I can't take the time necessary to prepare my full counterargument. But I will be back. I don't even ship Sora and Riku that hard. Heck, I don't really ship at all. But I do find hypocrites and people who use weak arguments to be incredibly frustrating, so I'll come back to take another crack.
I don't know what to tell you. You think a certain way of me and you're just using that to try and prove something about my words and your feelings. How you feel about my words isnt of consequence to me unless you can back up what you're insinuating. I'm not trying to do anything other than to point out what's in the context as a whole, and you're choosing to ignore or misconstrue it for your own sake of argument. I literally gave you an example of romantic subtext, and yet you chose to rationalize it as insignificant, which isn't conclusive outisde of your own thoughts. This, when your point was of NO romantic subtext, at all. Your obnoxious attitude doesn't help your case, but if you get a kick out of it then don't let me stop you. It's not changing anything. Everything that I have said has applied to what/where it needs to be applied to—your misunderstanding of the above romantic subtext and my "hypocritical" points is not a fault of mine.

The fact is, "your symbolism" of Riku and Sora is yours, not the stories, mainly in that you specify the symbolism between Sora and Riku as romantic in its integration of the story, as opposed to what is actually supported and explained by the story of their set relationship as best friends—this being the function so far within the context. There is a reason Oracle was pushing the idea that hand holding, crying, hugging—that all these things aren't exclusively romantic. This is a truth that sets the way of understanding that there is a way that these things are distinguishable between characters with romantic or platonic relationships—the context being the guide to its type and functuonality.

My point in terms of recognizing the meaning of action hasn't changed—the context is what ultimately defines the meaning of actions, words, objects, etc. even on the subtextual level because of the subtext's relationship with context. Sometimes, this meaning can even be inferred before, during, or after the moment of subtext that is displayed, and within the context, not fulfilled explicitly until a later time. All we can know for sure is what we have now, anything else is speculation, which is fine, and although these things aren't completely separate, there is a split between speculative "theories" and details actually utilized in the story that can be observed and proven in either truth or plausibility.

But, your need to discuss "possibility" with me is not what I'm doing here. I'm not talking about possibilities set by the expectations or thoughts as an individual, I'm talking about what is integrated into the story from an impartial view. Me not caring what you think is in relation to this—I'm not interested in talking shop about self-applying romantic emotions onto those I see fit. That's the pinnacle of shipping nature and discussion, and that's not what I entered the conversation for. I entered to talk about things objectively and in accordance to the reality of what is understood by the context. This is not a "Here's why I ship Sora/Kairi" moment. Acknowledging the romantic subtext between Sora and Kairi is not an understanding I have for and by myself, but the understanding that is being emitted by the story for everyone to understand. Whether they do or not, that's just part of individuality, which is why you feel some strange desire to deny the contextual points I'm bringing up straight from the story. You still haven't disproved my rebuttal to the existence of romantic subtext between Sora and Kairi. Only on one example did you discuss it's lack of significance, but that has no bearing on its existence as a whole. Your point was that there was none, not that there wasn't any that were significant. Your way of even criticizing its significance is by excusing its meaning by creating hypothetical background reasons as to why Olette said it, which has no coherent value of fact in the story at all. And, you've yet to still provide a point between Sora and Riku that specifically signifies romantic subtext in the context, something that is deviated or distinguishable from the best friend relationship that has been set by the story. Me asking for this is not shutting down the self-possibilities that everyone has. You can ship whoever you want, I don't care. But you shipping them with your understanding and your applied intentions is not synonymous with what the actual content presents—this doesn't change by simply using the content to justify your personal ship. These are still two separate things, and that separation not being acknowledged is one example of how shipping arguments begin in the first place.

If you wanted to talk about the possibility of Sora and Riku developing a romantic relationship later on, that's fine, but I don't care for that type of speculative conversation. If you wanted to infer that it has a presence in the game RIGHT NOW in form of romantic possibility in the story, then that's where I would choose to discuss things as that is a conversation more inherent of contextual description that can either be proven or disprove in some way of its presence to even be considered a plausible possibility presented by the context. Romantic possibility, just like romantic subtext, is specified as it is because it particularly involves a meaning that is explicitly romantic—if this was not true, there wouldn't be a way to distinguish if a moment or an action is indeed platonic or romantic. The intensity of this specific possibility can be on any level, but it having the notion of explicit romantic meaning is still present to set that specification, as to set the possibility as romantic in the first place. This, as romantic possibility in the context as opposed to being applied strictly by the audience.

So, with supporting details from the context, and not your own, personal interpretive description or embellishment—please point out a moment or meaning exhibited between, to, or about Sora and Riku's character relation that is explicitly romantic within the narrative of the story.
 
Last edited:

MrFranklin95

Active member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
408
Awards
0
Age
24
Location
Los Angeles, California
Website
www.facebook.com
I'd say the series is going forward the same way it did. Without outright making any decisions, and letting its fandom wage their endless OTP war on the forums. And this might be the best outcome we can hope for. Because half of the people will not accept the fact that there are indeed hints at a Soriku ship, while the other half won't accept that there are indeed hints at the Sokai ship.
I mean... I don't know, I just disagree with Sora/Riku scenario because the hints seen aren't provided because its the narrative intention to spot out hints, its just what people want to see and have fun with. Which I have no problem with but you can't deny something isn't and say something else is there for one thing when thats the only thing that it honestly can be without seeming really off tone wise.

You can't flip-flop Sora/Kairi when all there scenes have a good sum of romantic subtext and flipping it on its head as just another form of friendship would just mess with the tone of those scenes and interactions presented visually. With Sora and Riku, sure, you can say there are hints but you can say the same thing about any deep, meaningful friendships. Its like the situation in friend groups were two people hang out and have a close bond with each other and you see it all the time and you assume they should be together romantically but then you hear and litsen to the tone of their conversations and interactions and you clearly see thats not whats happening at all, however you might wish it to be because it would, like, totally cute.

And then you have a situation like Sora and Kairi thats very on the nose and you're like, "Okay, those two are clearly into each other in a very different context then those two" Its night and day difference. It happens all the time. Sora and Riku don't talk to each other like best friends on the verge of a romance, they talk like best friends who've known each other for years and have no issues expressing it. Which I know, people will scream at me for that. I don't what else to tell you.

The argument I'd use for this is The Legend of Korra, which isnt exactly the best example when it comes to portrying LGBTQ relationship in a significant way but that whole relationship from Season 3 and Season 4 is blatant hints, subtle body langauge, and the ways they talk to each other that made me believe Korra and Asami were on the verge of something else going on. And it wasn't the case of fans seekng something that isn't there, it was the creators clear intention from the beginning and they did it despite Nickelodeon's obvious protest.

The problem is that Noruma isn't clear in his writing a lot of the time and thats again due to lack of what needs to be focused on and given attention to make a narrative point in the story clearly defined, which is kind of the same problem the creators of Avatar had but all for different reasons. But unlike Avatar, by the end of KH3, the relationships aren't moving forward in any meaningful directions, which means we're stuck in the same place people were years ago, which means this debate is going to keep going on until Noruma just does... something else.
 
Last edited:

allenleonardo

Active member
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
159
Awards
1
Location
Somewhere in Germany
  • Master of Monologues
That "example" of romantic subtext between Sora and Riku is not something that is integrated within the game, rather, the meaning of romance there is being applied by your own perspective of romance specifically. Your application there is literally the reason why this conversation is happening in the first place. People trying to distinguish the meaning of actions that are shared between the platonic and romantic realm in the context, and gain a sense of truth outside of personal interpretation or appliance of meaning. That's not the story telling you that there is specifically romantic implication there, you're just saying it is on your volition.


"I bet you want us to take a hike so you two can be ALONE, huh?" — Selphie in CoM about Sora and "Namine" (Kairi, if you don't understand the plot and parallels of the game)

Or

"Aw, I know who you're thinking about!" Donald, after Goofy points out Sora is blushing after looking at Will/Elizabeth. This is paralleled with the other moment of Sora observing Jack/Sally, and we get a physical look at him thinking of Kairi.



And to add to allenlenoardo, the quotes above are distinguishable from the praises Riku gained on Destiny Island because the context makes a point in separating the nature of Sora's relationship with Kairi from Riku by utilizing the myth of the Paopu Fruit, this to allude to both Sora and Kairi wanting that meaning in each other—this all being relative to the first game on its own.
So any subtext between Sora and Riku is not romatic because somehow that is our own perspective of romance. But anything that has a traditional boy and girl in it is of course not our own perspective or interpretation but something that is true? Yet take Sora and make him a girl and tell me that those scenes between Riku and him are purely friendship. I highly doubt that. Not that I am saying that they are in love just that these hints exists too. Give these scenes to Sora and Kairi and I am sure a lot of their fans would be using them exactly to show how deeply in love they are.

Also interesting that you use that one quote from Olette in KH2 to show that Sora and Kairi must be in love but say that the ones from the island kids dont count. The kids that knew the other three way better than Olette ever did with Sora and Kairi. (And lets not forget that it was Kairi telling her the story, the girl who is in love with Sora) And somehow these three believed Riku and Kairi are in love.

And it is interesting that you bring quotes into this that are from the few games that have the most romantic hintes between them. Yet where are the KH3 ones? Where is the teasing in it? Nowhere! The only one that shows romantic feelings is Kairi, while Sora suddenly does not show any at all. I mean why would he be that down that Riku is not sitting with them, if he could not wait to be alone with his true love Kairi? Why does he looks unsure when she shows the fruits if it was what he always wanted to do? Why only accept it when she tells him that its kinda just a good luck charm (japanese translation)?

One translation about the VA interview for example (which is similiar to another that I read and I wonder how the khinsider one will be): Irino: We recorded both possibilities of eating and not eating the Paopu fruit. It wasn’t decided which to use at that time, but I guess the one they eat was chosen. I think Nomura-san was struggling to figure out how much he should depict those two’s feelings.

(Soras VA also said that sharing a paopu fruit is not necessarily romantic)

So Nomura, the man that should know how those two should feel was not sure if he should include the scene at all, so much that they recorded both versions. So the big important scene might have even been not in the game at all because Nomura was not sure how he should depict those feelings. If he wanted them to be romantic without a kiss the fruit scene would have been the best way to show it but seemingly that was not what he wanted.

Then he did gave a statement before the game that bonds can change. There is a big chance that he meant Riku and Kairi but honestly, seeing how Sora thought about her in KH2 and then comparing it to Kh3...well there is a certain change too.

In the end the hints where there in KH1, 2 and CoM but after that all the recent games have put more depth on Rikus and Soras friendship, even going so far and giving them a combined keyblade and dearly beloved as their heart song. So maybe the pairing had been planned at the beginning of the series but things can change and a good romance should have hints in newer games too, especially with Kairi and Sora getting older and more mature. Yet instead of thinking more about her or getting more teased about his feelings for her, he does not think about her at all. If that is the romance people want then that is one heck of a bad one imo.

I mean... I don't know, I just disagree with Sora/Riku scenario because the hints seen aren't provided because its the narrative intention to spot out hints, its just what people want to see and have fun with. Which I have no problem with but you can't deny something isn't and say something else is there for one thing when thats the only thing that it honestly can be without seeming really off tone wise.

You can't flip-flop Sora/Kairi when all there scenes have a good sum of romantic subtext and flipping it on its head as just another form of friendship would just mess with the tone of those scenes and interactions presented visually. With Sora and Riku, sure, you can say there are hints but you can say the same thing about any deep, meaningful friendships. Its like the situation in friend groups were two people hang out and have a close bond with each other and you see it all the time and you assume they should be together romantically but then you hear and litsen to the tone of their conversations and interactions and you clearly see thats not whats happening at all, however you might wish it to be because it would, like, totally cute.
Yet any scenes with Sora and Kairi seemingly cant be deep friendship, they have to be romance while anything with Sora and Riku of course have to be just deep friendship and cant be romance at all. Why?

Just take the scene from DDD and now KH3: The two of them combining their keyblades to form one that has a paopu fruit at the end of this and dearly beloved plays which is their heart song. How many people would see this as a romantic hint if its suddenly Kairi instead of Riku?
 
Last edited:

balloon53

New member
Joined
Mar 19, 2019
Messages
8
Awards
0
Here's the thing with context it can be interpreted many different ways. Wayfinders are actually something that exist in real life and were used by sailors to figure out which way they were going that is partially why there is a scene where Ven and Aqua hold them up and look at the stars. With music there is just more than the words there is the tone and color of the song as well and looking at the key sign and the type of music. Hikari is more of a pop song while passion and chikai are more ballads. Passion being more of a pop ballad and chikai is an actual ballad. When interpreting the lyrics you have to look at the Japanese versions of the song because they have a completely different meaning.
The intro version of hikari for example says: "quietly, stand in the exit way, And in the pitch black take the light" in the moment Sora reaches out to grab Riku's hand (shizuka ni deguchi ni tatte Kurayami ni hikari o ute) I found the translation on google.

I'm not trying to say anything is wrong with what anyone ships it's just I'm slightly bothered by when people don't look at both versions.

Another thing is that the keyblades representing Sora's bond with Riku and Kairi have kanji for keywords in the Series aka darkness on oblivion and light on oath keeper.

ignoring bias completely is an easy way to observe interactions between characters no changing anything about the scene but it is really difficult to do. I'm only going to lay out what happens between the end of KH1 and KH2.
At the end of kh1 Riku feels bad for being used by Ansem that's why he stays behind to close the door. He tells Sora to take care of Kairi and then Sora and Kairi are separated the last phrase said is " I'll come back to you I promise. I know you will." In COM Sora wants to find Riku to bring him back to the destiny islands. He finds castle oblivion instead and gets his memory torn apart, some memories escaping into a replica who takes the appearence of Kairi with black hair "Xion". Riku finds out Sora can not wake up without these memories because they are really important so Roxas defeats Xion and Riku takes Roxas to diz. When Sora wakes up he continues the mission to find Riku and bring him back to the Destiny Islands where Kairi is. So about midway through KH2 Kairi is kidnapped by Axel and in Hallow bastion Sora talks to Siax after learning about her being kidnapped. Sora had been searching for just Riku prior to this and Sora is questioned about the importance of Kairi to him. When the trio finally reunites in the world that never was Sora had been looking for his friend for over a year and Sora had known that Kairi was back home safe.

Sora refuses to go home without Riku because he wants the 3 of them to all be safe back on the islands.
See I wrote that without talking about shippy stuff.
Also if you wanted to look at the Siax scene I brought up a little bit more the action of begging on your knees is one traditionally used in japan to basically show you have lost your honor to a specific cause. I believe the name is Dogeza. From what I can recall of that cutscene Riku is also not mentioned.
 

MelodicEnigma

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2018
Messages
106
Awards
0
Website
twitter.com
So any subtext between Sora and Riku is not romatic because somehow that is our own perspective of romance. But anything that has a traditional boy and girl in it is of course not our own perspective or interpretation but something that is true? Yet take Sora and make him a girl and tell me that those scenes between Riku and him are purely friendship. I highly doubt that. Not that I am saying that they are in love just that these hints exists too. Give these scenes to Sora and Kairi and I am sure a lot of their fans would be using them exactly to show how deeply in love they are.
Your statements don't represent what I said at all, so I'm not sure why you're saying what you are here. But, i'll try to address it as much as I can.

In regards to romantic subtext, this specification is set by the context. If it is not specified to be exclusice to romantic ideals in the moment of subtext, this moment between two characters is either defined in some other way by other moments before or after the subtextual situation. For Sora and Riku, I'm saying there hasn't been a subtextual moment that has displayed in romantic specification, which, would act as a deviation to the nature of the relationship that has already been established as best friends. There's nothing they've done or said that can't be understood in the bounds of friendship. This can be the case for a myriad of characters that people ship, so yes, people most certainly project romantic possibility on characters by their own reasoning outside of it's proof in a story.

I don't what you're saying for the traditional point. If it's the assumption that romantic subtext is used between characters simply by the configuration of boy and girl is, ultimately, incorrect. Making a social commentary about people's perspectives isn't what this conversation is about, and there are a myriad of unknown variables that don't make such a claim conclusive anyway with that abstract hypothetical.

Also interesting that you use that one quote from Olette in KH2 to show that Sora and Kairi must be in love but say that the ones from the island kids dont count. The kids that knew the other three way better than Olette ever did with Sora and Kairi. (And lets not forget that it was Kairi telling her the story, the girl who is in love with Sora) And somehow these three believed Riku and Kairi are in love.
Again, what you're saying doesnt represent my point.

The fact is, that Olette's comment is used as part of the romantic subtextual frame used with Sora and Kairi many times before. Whether you deem this significant because she doesn't know Kairi or Sora that well doesn't take away from it being used in this way. Me saying this proves their in love did not leave my mouth in the slightest. What it does do, is straightforwardly present the notion of romance between Sora and Kairi.

And, let's be clear here: the comments about Riku from the island kids, for one, doesn't mean they believe Kairi and Riku are in love. Romantic Subtext being used doesn't always equate to "being in love" and its questionable on it having that specific meaning to begin with. The comments from them, of anything serve as part of the narrative in Riku and Sora's "competition" for Kairi, this showing between the two of them even further from Riku's teases.

I'll have to check, but im going off memory in saying thay Tidus's comment was about losing to Riku strenght and from there saying Kairi is lucky to have Riku around. Ill check back on that, but I think that was said.

And it is interesting that you bring quotes into this that are from the few games that have the most romantic hintes between them. Yet where are the KH3 ones? Where is the teasing in it? Nowhere! The only one that shows romantic feelings is Kairi, while Sora suddenly does not show any at all. I mean why would he be that down that Riku is not sitting with them, if he could not wait to be alone with his true love Kairi? Why does he looks unsure when she shows the fruits if it was what he always wanted to do? Why only accept it when she tells him that its kinda just a good luck charm (japanese translation)?

One translation about the VA interview for example (which is similiar to another that I read and I wonder how the khinsider one will be): Irino: We recorded both possibilities of eating and not eating the Paopu fruit. It wasn’t decided which to use at that time, but I guess the one they eat was chosen. I think Nomura-san was struggling to figure out how much he should depict those two’s feelings.

(Soras VA also said that sharing a paopu fruit is not necessarily romantic)

So Nomura, the man that should know how those two should feel was not sure if he should include the scene at all, so much that they recorded both versions. So the big important scene might have even been not in the game at all because Nomura was not sure how he should depict those feelings. If he wanted them to be romantic without a kiss the fruit scene would have been the best way to show it but seemingly that was not what he wanted.
First off, how have you come to the conclusion that Kairi is in love with Sora, exactly? And, how does this confirmation not work itself as part of the narrative between the characters?

Second, I think there's a misconception here.

If the idea behind the scene was to not convey that sharing a Paopu Fruit was romantic explicitly, then that means exactly as it does in what the intention was there. That decision was about the action, not the characters. Now, considering the fact that Nomura had to make this conscious decision with Sora and Kairi specifically, and how this has been used to represent their relationship, how is it then that the romantic nature of their relationship has no bearing in the story? The variable here that they're trying to convey isnt explicitly romantic is the act of sharing a Papou, not that Sora and Kairi have no romance implied between them at all. I would advocate that the decision to keep it in was done because no matter the meaning, the Paopu Fruit sharing is a symbol of Sora and Kairi's closeness ever since the first KH.

Anyway, everything else is just speculation. Again, we have no showing of what this change means for the characters yet and in what way.
 
Last edited:

allenleonardo

Active member
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
159
Awards
1
Location
Somewhere in Germany
  • Master of Monologues
When Sora wakes up he continues the mission to find Riku and bring him back to the Destiny Islands where Kairi is. So about midway through KH2 Kairi is kidnapped by Axel and in Hallow bastion Sora talks to Siax after learning about her being kidnapped. Sora had been searching for just Riku prior to this and Sora is questioned about the importance of Kairi to him. When the trio finally reunites in the world that never was Sora had been looking for his friend for over a year and Sora had known that Kairi was back home safe.
Sora has not been searching for Riku over a year. As far as Sora knew KH1 ended and he woke up after one year of sleep to look for Riku. For him no time has passed because he slept through it. Then he went on his search for Riku.

Its also interesting that he fell down and hit the ground with his fists when he saw that Mickey was gone again and thus his only clue if Riku was fine or not. That shows how hard that hit him and shortly after that Saix talks about having Kairi and Sora just goes on his knees to get to know at least where she is. He deeply cares about both of them in those scenes.

Yet until he saw Kairi again he did not know how she was. She was captured until the end and Hollow Bastion was the middle point of the story, so at least for half the story Sora was not sure if she was save and he knew that the organisation had her.

He then finds out that Riku might be save because he understood that it was Riku in Mulans world. So unlike Kairi who was not save, he had a clue about him.

Then they have the fight where he, Kairi and Riku meet each other again. Sora goes towards her and tells her that she has changed (Strange think to say imo) and then its Kairi that hugs him and Sora being completely serious hugs her back after some time. Of course how Donald and Goofy acted in the background that was probably meant as a more romantic moment. Yet the problem is, that the scene after that blows this out of the water.

First when Sora realised that its Riku music starts to play (which did not happen with the hug before that), he cries, falls on his knees and is completely emotional. This does not mean that its a romantic moment but the problem is that the romantic moment before that with the "person that is the most important to him" feels flat. Soras strange sentence about her changing, him not reacting to her hug at first, no music. Its just feels off.

If she truly had been save the whole game and just came out of a gate to join in the last fight, then maybe that reaction would have been fine but Kairi had been in danger for quite some time so shouldnt he have been a bit happier that she is save? Because Riku could at least fight while Kairi had been with people that are seemingly heartless and ready to do anything.

Its one of the first scenes where imo the pairing started to feel weird. Before that you have Sora thinking about dancing with her (the KH1 version) and being happy and suddenly his first sentence is "you have changed" when he saw her again and being kind of stiff about it.

Again its probably meant to be a bit romantic, but already felt off. And after that SoKai dropped from the games nearly completely.

So for me the best thing would just be all of them staying friends. Make their bonds as friends stronger and have it end that way.

First off, how have you come to the conclusion that Kairi is in love with Sora, exactly? And, how does this confirmation not work itself as part of the narrative between the characters?

Second, I think there's a misconception here.

If the idea behind the scene was to not convey that sharing a Paopu Fruit was romantic explicitly, then that means exactly as it does in what the intention was there. That decision was about the action, not the characters.
(Hopefully I dont come of as mean but I dont have english as my mothertongue and I really have a hard time understanding your part about the fruit scene, so if I misunderstand your points its not on purpose)

Because there had been hints in old games (as I said: KH1, 2 and CoM had romantic hints for both of them). But the problem for me is, that there are barely any in Kh3 or even DDD. Heck it even goes so far that Sora does not even mention or think about her at all until the final battle was near. The same Sora that thougth about others in these worlds.

On the other hand nearly all the scenes that have Kairi in it show how she cares deeply about Sora. She writes letters to him, she wants to protect him, she is the one that started the paopu scene. She holds him together through her power (even if its sadly in a passive way) and seemingly only hoped that Sora would make it. When they see each other in the light tunnel and Sora comments how he feels strong with her she is kinda flustered and then takes his hand. (She is truly the one that most of the time even starts these scenes, not Sora)

Again I am not saying that there were never hints of them in the games. The problem is that Kh3 stopped this from Soras side.

Combine this with Nomura not being sure if he should use the fruit sharing scene between them at all and you suddenly wonder if maybe Sora has grown out of his teenager love.

Because why would Nomura fear how people might see this scene? We have Rikus VA that does say that sharing a fruit is kinda romantic, which is the reason why Soras VA said that its not. So we already have an example where someone sees sharing a fruit as something completely romantic, especially between those two. So if Nomura wanted them to be a couple why not use the scene exactly for this? Why be afraid that it might be taken the wrong way? Even going to so far to nearly taking the whole scene out? The only reason where it would make sense is, if he sees them as only friends and feared that people would take this as romance. (Which quite a few did) Because if SoKai was the endgame then why would that be bad? Wouldnt that work as a great way to show their feelings?
 
Last edited:

Oracle Spockanort

the only villain on staff
Staff member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
32,687
Awards
54
Age
28
Location
California
Website
twitter.com
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • 15th Anniversary
  • Just Short of the Mark
  • Advanced Chain of Memories
  • Beauty Within
  • No Name
Perhaps when I'm not at work I'll try to sit down and respond but I'm gonna drop the novelization here and we can just compare the intent between Sora's reunion with Kairi and his reunion with Riku.

Code:
They defeated more and more Heartless, but wave upon wave replaced them, 
gushing endlessly out from the dark. Swinging her Keyblade, Kairi slashed through them 
until the last one remaining in front of her had dissolved into nothing.

"Wow! Nice work, Kairi!"

At the praise from Donald, she paused, then slowly faced them with a smile spreading on her face.

Sora, Donald, and Goofy were staring at her in undisguised awe.

"Kairi...It's so good to see you." Sora grinned back.

At the sight of his joyful expression, Riku's eyes narrowed as he smiled, too.

"You and Riku never came home, so I went looking for you," said Kairi.

"Sora and Kairi stepped closer to each other in tandem.

"I'm sorry," he murmured. Riku still wasn't back...

Just as he averted his eyes, Kairi launched herself at him.

"You're not a dream..." Her arms wrapped tightly around him.

Sora stalled in confusion for the briefest moment before his own arms returned the hug.

Looking on, Donald and Goofy couldn't help but grin.

But there was one more person—Riku—who turned away and started walking off.

He couldn't linger with them anymore. He didn't want Sora to see him like this and realize it was him.

"Wait—Ansem!" Letting go of Kairi, Sora called after the man in black. "I mean, 
Xehanort's Heartless—I never thought for a second we'd ever see [I]you[/I] again. 
Just thinking about all of the things you did make[s] me so angry..."

Riku's steps came to a halt. 

"But...but you saved Kairi, didn't you?" Sora went on. "I have to be grateful for that. So—thanks."

Instead of looking back, Riku resumed his steps with his head lowered.

Kairi ran up behind him and flung her arms around him. "Riku! Don't go!"

Sora froze. "Kairi...What did you just say?"

She tugged the man's arm and said the name again. "Riku."

"I'm no one. One a dweller of the darkness." He gently brushed Kairi away and tried again to escape.

"Sora, come over here," Kairi pleaded. "Say something to him."

Mystified, Sora approached Riku.

"Here—you'll understand." Kairi took Sora's hand and joined it with Riku's. "Close your eyes."

He did as she said, and in the darkness, he cold feel the warmth of their hands.

An image floated up behind his closed eyes...Riku. It was him.

"...Riku..." Sora looks up, holding tight to his friend's hand. "It's Riku...Riku is [I]here[/I]."

He knew that it was Riku's hand he clasped. It was bigger than the one he'd held a 
thousand times before, but in his heart, Sora felt it.

A knot of something he could barely define swelled in his chest. Clinging to that hand, 
to Riku's hand, Sora fell to his knees.

"I was looking for you...!" Tears spilled over and flowed down his cheeks as he pressed 
Riku's hand against his face.

How long had he been searching? How badly had he wanted to see Riku, to talk to him again?

And Riku was here. Here at last.

[I]I found you. Finally. I missed you. I've missed you for so long...[/I]

They'd been separated on Destiny Island, then they ended up fighting, and then they'd 
gone through that door together from opposite sides...and he'd been searching, searching 
for Riku all the while.

"C'mon, Sora," Riku chided him lightly. "Keep it together."

He looked up, his sight blurred with tears into the face that wasn't Riku's. It was Ansem's—no, 
Xehanort's face. But there was no doubt. He felt Riku's presence through their clasped hands.

"I looked [I]everywhere[/I] for you...!"

Riku stared down at Sora, still kneeling, still clutching his hand. "I didn't want you to find me."

Stung, Sora lowered his eyes again.

"But it was him helpin' us all along, wasn't it?" Goofy said cheerfully.

Baffled, Donald cocked his head. "[I]Quack?![/I]"

"Y'know, all those clues we kept findin'. The photo and the sea-salt ice cream...I bet it was Riku."
Goofy watched him for a reaction.

[I]The photo, the ice cream...And that probably wasn't all[/I], Sora thought. [I]I felt Riku in the Land of
Dragons and in the Beast's castle.[/I]

[I]For so long, I didn't know if he was alive, if I'd get to see him again.[/I]

"I was staring to worry you guys would never catch on, Riku said with a touch of amusement.
"Even with all of my hints, it was still you three, after all..."

"What's [I]that[/I] s'posed to mean?!" Donald protested.

Sora got to his feet and blurted, "But why didn't you let me know you were okay?!"

Riku averted his eyes, unable to meet the demanding stare Sora fixed on him. "...I told you.
I didn't want you to see me. Not...like this." He looked don at his open hands. "I fought
Ansem's—or Xehnort's darkness when it invaded my heart. And I won. But to use 
the power of that darkness, I had to become him myself..."

"Does that mean you can't change back?" Kairi sake cautiously.

"This fight isn't over yet," said Riku. "Until it is, I still need the power of darkness."

"Then let's finish it!" Sora's voice was full of determination. He flashed a smile at 
his friend in a different from. "You're still Riku, no matter what."

[I]It doesn't mater what he looks like. Riku is okay. I'm so glad he's okay. And I
found him again.[/I]

More tears were welling up in his eyes. Trying not to let Riku notice, he turned 
to Donald and Goofy. "So, how 'bout it? Are we ready for one last rumble together?
The king's waiting!"

"Yeah!" Donald agreed a bit louder than necessary. "Let's get going!"
He hugs Kairi in confusion. That about lines up with his reaction in KH2.

(BUY THE NOVELS! SUPPORT THE OFFICIAL RELEASE!)

And this only seems to continue on both in KH2 and KH3. Sora is one of the most emotionally intelligent characters in the series, so his reactions make no sense if he is meant to be in love.
 
Top