Should characters that got their happy ending be relevant to the new plot or stuck to cameos?



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*TwilightNight*

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One has to ask themselves if it's really a testament of Nomura forgetting his own series or just him wanting to have everyone be happy happy joy joy without any real closure to the issues between them because he simply wants to get it over with.

- I want a scene with Diz and Naminé
- I want a scene with Riku and Roxas
- I want a scene with Isa and Roxas and Xion

I want all to apologize for their actions in hurting other people. Watching Roxas and Riku run around like nothing left a bad taste in my mouth. Isa being on the clock tower too, all because he whined about retconned in Subject X. Who's basically Xion 2.0. by being a girl forced into a trio when it was a duo, except worse. At least Days made sure to clean up plot messes with having no one remember this replica...Isa and Lea remember this girl but never mentioned her this entire time. It's the same thing with Riku Replica. Oh, suddenly Naminé cares. The basis for all of this is either not set up well or not set up whatsoever. Bad storytelling is Nomura just throwing anything in there without the substance required.

Anyway, in terms of benching, both Roxas and Aqua are too popular to put aside, especially with someone as strong as Roxas who still has potential.

The rest of the characters don't have that absurd popularity power except Axel/Lea, so it's up to the director and staff's discretion as to what they decide to pursue or not pursue with them.
 

Rodin

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Hm.

That’s what buzz-killed me about the resolutions. There’s always a threat or problem to their resolutions. Like dang, can we have one happy resolution without the character being harmed in the situation.
Tbf I could pitch a story for Xion and Roxas, it just wouldn't take place right after 3. Im cool with them figuring out what they wanna do. They're just being the support for Isa/Lea.
 
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Twilight Lumiair

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I'd probably need to rewatch the scenes, but I remember it as not Mickey and Riku forgetting, but that they just never told anyone. Which would be even worse...
Honestly, it's a sucky situation either way, but yeah, that'd jus make it all the frustrating.
Oh, they weren't doing nothing. They talked about sequel bait!
Oh, right, DUH!! How could I forget the all encompassing, and ever unnecessary sequel bait.
I had to stop reading the "Aqua addicted to darkness" thread at some point cuz the sheer amount of RoD's inconsistencies and Mickey's less then stellar 10-year rescue mission hurt my brain.

Also, everyone should just stop listening to Yen Sid. I don't know one situation where he made the right call.
I don't blame ya. Like I said, when I started trying to reason out some level of logic and apply it to that whole situation (working out what might've happened with Mickey, exactly HOW dangerous the RoD is, etc.), I got burned out pretty hard. It's much easier just explaining the reasons for why it doesn't make sense than it is to scrape for answers the writers didn't care enough to give us.
I seriously thought I missed something when this happened.
Me too. I remember staring at the screen waiting for some kind of explanation, because it was so contrived and out of nowhere one would naturally assume "ok, now they have to explain this", only to never even get addressed.

You wanna know what else is never explained? What exactly did SoD do? The implication from the diologue is that he was the one to anti-fy her, but are seriously telling me he had the ability to strong-arm people into the darkness THAT easily this whole time? It's never once shown, said, or implied that he had this ability. And if he always did, why then did he, at no point, ever use that on Riku, or even Sora? HOW does he do that in the first place? Or was it just a combination of... whatever the hell he did, and the darkness of the abyss? Like.. we don't know; we're never told. And this wouldn't necessarily be as big of an issue if it weren't the catalyst for everything in that subplot. All the more reason I can't take specifically that scene even remotely seriously. And to think that such a nonsensical mess ended up destroying the ONE thing Blank Points achieved: the bond between Aqua and AtW, which doesn't even get addressed either.
And Lea already knew how to fight with his chakrams, which he still has.

What's even the point of having them in a place they can spend years in if they're gonna be made weak? Ah, yes. Fake drama.
Pretty much. It's honestly embarrassing for a highly trained assassin who used to be the Organization's Hitman to be a significantly less effective fighter when A) he literally had all time in the world train with a more versatile and powerful weapon, and B) he can just whip out his Chakrams at any time anyway.

On that note, is no one going to talk about how Lea seems to still retain his Nobody powers, yet the apprentices somehow don't? Not just in KH3 now (since he's still capable of summoning Axel's weapons), but also in DDD. It was literally the entire reason he was able to save Mickey, Donald, and Goofy from Maleficent. Why be so selective? Can't we have some more non Keyblade Weilders with awesome powers? I don't see why it'd hurt.
It's scenes like this where my only reaction is "you deserved this."

How am I supposed to feel bad for these characters when they go out of their way to have bad stuff happen to them?
Right?! That entire cutscene had all but a few of the characters just allowing themselves or their comrades to get beaten to a pulp. And for what? Donald (of all people) gets rid of Terranort anyway. The Union X Keyblades that Sora rides the second time around could've and should've appeared the first time as well, since nothing the main cast actually does triggers their arrival in the first place. It's all just fake tension, and it definitely doesn't help that the Guardians go right back to being surrounded and encircled by heartless for the THIRD time, immediately afterward, anyway (I suppose they just really wanted Yen Sid to be a deus ex machina, since the previous two [PoW & Ux] just weren't "cool" enough :confused:).
Sometimes I wonder if that's what Nomura was even thinking about.
If not, I'm really curious what the hell that moment was supposed to be in reference to since Roxas and Lexeaus barely had time to interact, and I'm not even sure why they would have a falling out to begin with, or over what. Especially since Roxas didn't really have much personality back then... Which, now that I think about it, should've made it easier for the two to get along, lol.
The bit was so random I forgot how random it was. Lea bringing up how he always wants everyone to remember him would have been a better way into segueing about Ven instead of...not segueing it at all. Like it turns out despite how much he wants others to remember him, he doesn't remember everyone he meets and this leads to him mentioning a kid he met once, but that he can't remember his name or face, which he feels bad about.
I like that direction a lot better. Giving Lea some introspection on that personal philosophy (if you can call it that) could potentially help to further show more layers of the character, since we never did get much insight on exactly why it was so important to him that he be remembered forever, or how he himself felt about remembering others. Then, later on you could have speaking to Ven jog his memory; resulting in Lea giving a light-hearted but sincere apology. Something simple like: "Sorry I didn't get it memorized. 😅😓"
 

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If not, I'm really curious what the hell that moment was supposed to be in reference to since Roxas and Lexeaus barely had time to interact, and I'm not even sure why they would have a falling out to begin with, or over what. Especially since Roxas didn't really have much personality back then... Which, now that I think about it, should've made it easier for the two to get along, lol.
That smack Lexaeus gave Roxas was fueled by something. It was so hard, Sora, Xion, Ventus, and Vanitas all felt it and shared Roxas's pain during that training mission. There was certainly a grudge on Lexaeus part. Maybe Roxas ate some food on his seat and left crumbs on it, angering the big man.

Being real for a sec, I somehow think that line was meant for Riku, as there would be a legit reason for Lexaeus to despise Riku. He is the one who slayed him after all, right?
 

Twilight Lumiair

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That smack Lexaeus gave Roxas was fueled by something. It was so hard, Sora, Xion, Ventus, and Vanitas all felt it and shared Roxas's pain during that training mission. There was certainly a grudge on Lexaeus part. Maybe Roxas ate some food on his seat and left crumbs on it, angering the big man.

Being real for a sec, I somehow think that line was meant for Riku, as there would be a legit reason for Lexaeus to despise Riku. He is the one who slayed him after all, right?
Mmmm..... I mean, Lexeaus was pretty apologetic for trying to use Riku while he was dying, and if you go back and watch that scene, it's implied Lexeaus new Ansem SoD was possessing Riku. That, coupled with the fact the he himself instigated the fight, kinda makes it seem like he wouldn't personally blame Riku for what happened either (though that still makes more sense than Roxas). He also seemed to have pretty decent morals compared to much of the Organization too (hence being named the "Silent Hero"), and I imagine that's in order to juxtapose him with Xaldin's character.
 

SweetYetSalty

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Mmmm..... I mean, Lexeaus was pretty apologetic for trying to use Riku while he was dying, and if you go back and watch that scene, it's implied Lexeaus new Ansem SoD was possessing Riku. That, coupled with the fact the he himself instigated the fight, kinda makes it seem like he wouldn't personally blame Riku for what happened either (though that still makes more sense than Roxas). He also seemed to have pretty decent morals compared to much of the Organization too (hence being named the "Silent Hero"), and I imagine that's in order to juxtapose him with Xaldin's character.
I always took it as Lexaeus being more apologetic for letting Zexion down. But I haven't seen COM in ages so what do I know?
 

Twilight Lumiair

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I always took it as Lexaeus being more apologetic for letting Zexion down. But I haven't seen COM in ages so what do I know?
You're actually not wrong.

From what I understand, it was a mix of both. He was regretful over having started that fight with Riku due to underestimating, or at the very least not fully understanding, the true nature of Riku's power (i.e. Ansem SoD), and since he was faded away before he could get back to Zexion, who isn't the kind of person to be perturbed so easily, he knew that his comrade was going to see it through till the end (likely getting himself killed). So he was essentially apologizing for inadvertently sealing Zexion's fate.

In that sense, I could see him having issue with Riku, but I'm not sure how much since he was the one trying to trick him into attacking the traitors. There's also SoD to consider as well.
 

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Yeah I'm fine with them being cameos. I'd actually prefer if the game focuses on a select few characters. The side games will still exist and I guess could flesh out
 

FudgemintGuardian

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One has to ask themselves if it's really a testament of Nomura forgetting his own series or just him wanting to have everyone be happy happy joy joy without any real closure to the issues between them because he simply wants to get it over with.
Both. Definitely both. But as much as I like to blame Nomura, a lot of blame should also goes towards Disney and Square Enix. The constant back-and-forth with Disney and appeasing their ridiculous rules probably wastes a lot of time, and Square Enix made Nomura depressed thanks to the Versus XIII/FFVX development train wreck and possibly more (learning you're the director to VIIRemake from checking an internal presentation instead of being told from the get-go doesn't sound like fun to me.)

Me too. I remember staring at the screen waiting for some kind of explanation, because it was so contrived and out of nowhere one would naturally assume "ok, now they have to explain this", only to never even get addressed.
And then there's how this scene would have had to take place before or at the very beginning of KH3. Which is another headache.

You wanna know what else is never explained? What exactly did SoD do? The implication from the diologue is that he was the one to anti-fy her, but are seriously telling me he had the ability to strong-arm people into the darkness THAT easily this whole time? It's never once shown, said, or implied that he had this ability. And if he always did, why then did he, at no point, ever use that on Riku, or even Sora? HOW does he do that in the first place? Or was it just a combination of... whatever the hell he did, and the darkness of the abyss? Like.. we don't know; we're never told. And this wouldn't necessarily be as big of an issue if it weren't the catalyst for everything in that subplot. All the more reason I can't take specifically that scene even remotely seriously. And to think that such a nonsensical mess ended up destroying the ONE thing Blank Points achieved: the bond between Aqua and AtW, which doesn't even get addressed either.
I need to sit back and laugh from the insanity of it all for a sec, because of how short this scene is. In 2 minutes a whole subplot comes crashing down, introduces a retcon (Subject X), powers out of nowhere, questions on where did Ansem put Ansem the Wise this whole time and why did he wait so late in the game to take him to the old mansion, and possibly more (like how come Terra never reacted in any way if he's the Guardian?) When you take the whole story in, this scene doesn't just mess up the Aqua subplot but reverberates throughout.

On that note, is no one going to talk about how Lea seems to still retain his Nobody powers, yet the apprentices somehow don't? Not just in KH3 now (since he's still capable of summoning Axel's weapons), but also in DDD. It was literally the entire reason he was able to save Mickey, Donald, and Goofy from Maleficent. Why be so selective? Can't we have some more non Keyblade Weilders with awesome powers? I don't see why it'd hurt.
I know, right? There's no reason to de-power the apprentices except for one dude. I'm trying to find what reason Nomura could have had for doing so but can't.

I wish there was at least an in-story reason given for why they lost their Nobody powers but not Lea.

Right?! That entire cutscene had all but a few of the characters just allowing themselves or their comrades to get beaten to a pulp. And for what? Donald (of all people) gets rid of Terranort anyway. The Union X Keyblades that Sora rides the second time around could've and should've appeared the first time as well, since nothing the main cast actually does triggers their arrival in the first place. It's all just fake tension, and it definitely doesn't help that the Guardians go right back to being surrounded and encircled by heartless for the THIRD time, immediately afterward, anyway (I suppose they just really wanted Yen Sid to be a deus ex machina, since the previous two [PoW & Ux] just weren't "cool" enough :confused:).
It's like Nomura was indecisive for how he wanted it to go down so picked "all of the above".

If not, I'm really curious what the hell that moment was supposed to be in reference to since Roxas and Lexeaus barely had time to interact, and I'm not even sure why they would have a falling out to begin with, or over what. Especially since Roxas didn't really have much personality back then... Which, now that I think about it, should've made it easier for the two to get along, lol.
I'm like, 70% sure that the intention was the epic slap, but I'm 5% mystery incident like Donald apologizing to Goofy about the ice cream, and 25% it was just something for Ienzo to give reason why he's being good boys now.

Ienzo: "Aeleus, whatever's between you and Roxas, it's in the past."

Of course, my 25% doesn't dismiss my 70%, but it's possible Nomura wasn't thinking of the slap scene when writing this and just got lucky.
 

Twilight Lumiair

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And then there's how this scene would have had to take place before or at the very beginning of KH3. Which is another headache.
Yep. Chronologically speaking, it could only really take place shortly before KH3, meaning she was thrown into the darkness at the eleventh hour right before here rescue. After all the struggle the character went through, the victory that she had already earned was undermined by a last minute twist that was clearly thrown in for the sake of shoehorning somekind of unnatural conflict. And why? Is there really any compelling drama in having Aqua's arc litterally fall through the floor again? I mean... I guess one could find drama in that, but it just feels like drama for the sake of drama that has no actual place inside the narrative of the character (especially when you look at the end of 0.2, Blank Points, and the secret ending of DDD).

Remember when we all thought Aqua was gonna come back as this badass, level 9000 Keyblade Master that would actually be able to follow through with all the promises she made leading up to KH3? Weeelllll, nope!

Despite doing her doing damnedest to survive and overcome the myriad of obstacles thrown in her way, at the last second she gets her Keyblade stripped away, her magic stripped away, her intellect stripped away (otherwise she would've dodged SoD's attack, stopped Vanitas' attack, and fought back against the Heartless Tornado), and then gets flicked away as an afterthought by someone who had absolutely no buissness being there in the first place....

Like.. I can only imagine Aqua's frustration when Nomura stuck his hand into the RoD and swiped away all of her stuff off-screen. Guess she was just getting so strong, and so popular that only the writer himself could go in there and knock her down a few pegs. The biggest problem with being in the RoD is that it prevented her from getting the memo that this was supposed to be Sora's story. HE was gonna save everyone whether they liked it or not! That includes her, Ventus, Terra, Kairi, Riku, Mickey, Donald, Goofy, Roxas, Namine, Xion, Emphemer, Skuld, Ava, Strelitzia, and hell, even redeem Xehanort while he's at it! Who cares if he's dead? "Death" doesn't mean anything in this world. The Lich can drag you down into the darkest abyss and it won't mean a thing. No one can escape their fate of being Sora's damsel! Eventually, everyone, everywhere WILL succumb... And the universe will worship him like a GOD! HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha..... Ugh.

I need to sit back and laugh from the insanity of it all for a sec, because of how short this scene is. In 2 minutes a whole subplot comes crashing down, introduces a retcon (Subject X), powers out of nowhere, questions on where did Ansem put Ansem the Wise this whole time and why did he wait so late in the game to take him to the old mansion, and possibly more (like how come Terra never reacted in any way if he's the Guardian?) When you take the whole story in, this scene doesn't just mess up the Aqua subplot but reverberates throughout.
Oh you have NO idea how bad it actually gets once you start looking at it from a broader perspective. Remember how I kept saying a while back that I wanted to post a really long critique of the Anti-Aqua subplot? Though I never got around to totally finishing it, after KH3 came out, I analyzed the whole thing (including all it's connected scenes and characters) for WEEKS, and that's how I ultimately came to the conclusion that the entire concept was just fundamentally broken. When looked at closely enough, NOTHING about it actually works.

Now I won't go into every issue it creates, but I will list off a few more narrative problems.

Ansem SoD appears out of nowhere, spouting about some retcon girl that was never once mentioned before, knocks Aqua (who's stripped bare at this point and can no longer be useful) into the abyss, and takes AtW hostage for most of the game. This contrived BS is what they use to justify:
  • Humiliating Aqua and forcing her to fail in achieving any part of the promise she made at the end of 0.2. Said promise pretty much extends to, and I'm paraphrasing: "I'll survive and keep my light shining bright so my friends can find me when the time comes, and in the mean time, I'll help however I can from here. The next time someone ends up in the RoD, I'll be here to help them. I'm Master Aqua, and this is my promise." In the original Japanese version, she actually ends that last line off by saying "there's no need to worry." This all bassically gets thrown right out the window with this ONE scene (though it's just as much Anti-Aqua as a whole that does the damage).
  • Despite beating the crap out of Aqua in his last scene, SoD somehow gets outmaneuvered by three powerless teenagers (who he doesn't kill), and once they manage to get AtW away to safety, SoD recognizes that there must be a traitor in the Organization. However, rather than sick some heartless on them, since he knows they can't have gotten very far and the heartless can sweep over every inch of a world in no time at all, or even simply inform his fellow members, he instead opts to do nothing because he (by his own admission) doesn't care about any of it anymore. AtW, Subject X, his own life, none of it matters to him after that. So essentially, he attacked them in the RoD over a retcon that he didn't actually care that much about in the first place (despite the writers trying to frame it as something important), and as soon as it somehow slips through his fingers, he loses all interest entirely. That WHOLE intrusion that destroyed Aqua's arc was for absolutely nothing (beyond shamelessly trying to padd out the story and shove in more sequel bait that is).
  • But then what about Ansem the Wise? Well, after being kept in a box for most of the game (off screen:cautious:), he goes on to operate in the background (off screen 😀) for the remainder of the story, and doesn't once get mentioned by any of the protagonist. Not even Aqua, despite the fact that she brought up arriving at the Dark Margin during her rant to Riku and Mickey while she was anti-fied, and somehow still immediately followed that up by saying "Do you have any idea how lonely it is to have no one?" Remind me why I should take anything Anti-Aqua said seriously again?
  • And just when you think they couldn't damage Aqua's character and her arc anymore than they already have, the writers had the audacity to use this whole poorly constructed mess an excuse to humiliate her even further. Rather than give her the victory she EARNED, they instead decide to make it so that she's somehow "weaker" than usual (because I guess all those levels she gained in the secret episode of BBS & 0.2 don't matter anymore, even though Sora, who loses his power all the time, can go from being weaker than Pete & Maleficent to at times soloing MX over the course of ONE game), and have her lose Vanitas in the stupidest way possible. I guess she just can't be the one to save Ven or Terra anymore (despite that being her end goal as a character since the end of BBS), and has to, ironically, be saved by them herself. Like... How embarrassing. This is the reward she gets for fighting over ten years in the RoD.
Now, I could easily go on about several other issues this scene, and really the concept as a whole brought to KH3, but I'm not trying to rewrite my whole analysis in this one post, lol.

I know, right? There's no reason to de-power the apprentices except for one dude. I'm trying to find what reason Nomura could have had for doing so but can't.

I wish there was at least an in-story reason given for why they lost their Nobody powers but not Lea.
Same. There's no legitimate reason I can think of, in or out of universe, for that to be the case. That kind of selectiveness goes past just being convenient, contrived, or biased. It's one of those things that's just flat out inconsistent.

I'm like, 70% sure that the intention was the epic slap, but I'm 5% mystery incident like Donald apologizing to Goofy about the ice cream, and 25% it was just something for Ienzo to give reason why he's being good boys now.

Ienzo: "Aeleus, whatever's between you and Roxas, it's in the past."

Of course, my 25% doesn't dismiss my 70%, but it's possible Nomura wasn't thinking of the slap scene when writing this and just got lucky.
Knowing Nomura, he probably just got lucky. If he couldn't even remember that Sora and Zexion never met, then I have trouble believing he'd remember that brutal backhand scene (for as memorable as it was, lol).

Honestly, that explanation feels perfectly in line with the way he seemed to write the game off of memory. Some things hit. Some things miss. And everything else comes out of nowhere.
 

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This conversation reminded me that a lot of us have high expectations for the KH3 manga.
 
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