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Screenshots From KH3 And KH3: RE MIND That Give Good Interpretative Evidence That Kairi And the Princesses Of Heart Possess Darkness



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Lacan Valeth

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Blarg. I should've responded to the arguments about Kairi sooner.

That didn't turn the Thread into a romantic relationship Topic, though. I was arguing that, *if* Anna has any romantic feelings for Sora - and that's an *if* - they're one-sided.

Still, I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

Before reading further, I recommend that anyone who wishes to further participate, or newly participate, in this Thread read the previous Thread at https://www.khinsider.com/forums/in...-princesses-of-heart-possess-darkness.223776/ . The pictures of Kairi are in the first Post.

That out of the way:

Astertide:
I'm not arguing that Kairi and Vanitas possessing darkness and light has anything to do with their ethereal origins and/or biological origins, though even if it *did,* they could still possess darkness and light, since your ethereal origins and/or biological origins have nothing whatsoever to do with your ability to choose, feel, and/or think.

They can choose and experience darkness and light. They have the same freedom to choose as anyone.

I'm not stating my Yozora/Vanitas theory as fact. But, though you can fight fire with fire - Riku does this with darkness repeatedly - you're correct, the coats are a bad example. I concede that point.

I didn't once say Nomura isn't in charge of what happens in KINGDOM HEARTS. However, yet once more, the Glossary Entry is general, not specific. And 'pure light' =\= 'no darkness whatsoever.' Lastly, I didn't say that Maleficent not gaining Aurora's heart or Kairi having so much darkness a dark corridor wouldn't make matters worse were facts. I said that those were possibilities. I'm saying that Kairi's and Anna's *facial expressions and body language* are the facts.

I don't care how 'everyone else' - which isn't true, because just because a lot of people say or do one thing doesn't mean that another person or everyone else says or does the same thing - refers to John Ronald Reuel Tolkien and Clive Staples Lewis. I'm not someone else. And I didn't say I was smarter than anyone. - Nor have I read THE ILIAD. - I'm applying their writing as proof of my points about how the creative process works.

You're *wholly wrong* about how 'pure' can be used artistically. Most published professional writers would strongly disagree with you. It doesn't just mean 'only one component' and there's not literally just one meaning to it. I recommend that you learn about the creative writing process.

Thirdly, I *do* know that Nomura isn't using the term in a technical way, because he's a creative writer and I know how creating literary art works.

Eraqus is a very bad example. He himself said that he'd fallen to darkness by attempting to murder Ven and Terra. So Eraqus is further proof that 'the closer you get to the light, the greater your shadow becomes.'

I'm arguing over a metaphor because, in literary art, metaphors *are* the writing that you should take partially, if not fully, literally.

Then we're agreeing about Ven. Ven can experience emotions of darkness and/or light, but he has no big darkness within him. I didn't say Ven has any *big darkness* - though he is capable of choosing to create it - just that he can experience emotions of darkness and/or light. Kairi and the Princesses of Heart are different. They possess so much darkness Kairi can create Demon Tides and the Lich and Demon Towers.

I agree with your other three points about Ven; I didn't disagree with them before.

I didn't say that everything Ansem the Wise says is false, or that we should disregard everything in the Secret Reports. Just the part about the Princesses of Heart possessing no darkness - and Ansem said that Xehanort's Heartless had written the non-Secret Ansem Reports. However, now that you reminded me of it, that Ansem said Sora retained his self-hood after becoming a Heartless because he willingly gave up his heart is another example of Ansem being wrong, since we know for a fact, from Sora's own words, that he *was* losing his self-hood.

Ansem putting the Princesses of Heart on a pedestal and the Nobodies in a pit are related. Ansem thinks too little of darkness and too much of light.

I'd be skeptical because Mickey isn't Sora or Riku, the two people who know Kairi the best. And even *Sora and Riku* are still learning to understand Kairi.

As for Ansem the Wise, if it's proven that Kairi is her daughter, I'll concede my point about him not knowing her well *before* she left Radiant Garden/Hollow Bastion. But not afterwards. - But even then, Ansem didn't realize that he didn't truly understand the heart until he attempted to transfigure an artificial Kingdom Hearts into data, so anything he believed about Kairi earlier is still doubtful. - And are you saying that this speculation is proof, as you've accused me of doing? Because, if you are, as with my speculation about Kairi having so much darkness that a dark corridor wouldn't give her more, this is just speculation.

Nomura included the Secret Reports because the majority of the Secret Reports weren't wrong. I'm not saying that most of the matters in them are wrong, just a minority.

Yet again, 'pure' is used figuratively.

In KINGDOM HEARTS, the Gameplay is a vehicle for the plot and the plot is a vehicle for the characterization. Nomura isn't going to include a difficult linear Boss for no purpose, and even a lot of his optional super Bosses in KINGDOM HEARTS have at least a little story surrounding them.

I'm sorry for being unclear.

Kairi didn't turn Aqua into Anti-Aqua intentionally. Her darkness acted on its own without her say so, as darkness sometimes does. Kairi was aware that, since learning Aqua had sacrificed herself for Riku caused Riku a lot of pain, so her darkness foolishly believed that, if it prevented Riku from saving Aqua, Riku wouldn't go through any more, or as much, pain. And Aqua became Anti-Aqua because she gave up after she lost the battle to protect Ansem the Wise, thereby failing to love and to protect someone for the fourth time in her life, after she'd failed to love and to protect Eraqus and Ven and Terra. Recall that, after Aqua learns, in A FRAGMENTARY PASSAGE, that Xehanort is still inside of Terra, when Terra-Xehanort's shadow casts her into the darkness, she smiles exhaustedly and says, 'Now I can be... one with darkness...' and starts to let her Wayfinder go. Learning that Aqua's sacrifice to love and to protect Terra had failed caused her to be on the verge of giving up before Mickey saved her. The same thing happened with Ansem the Wise.

I'm not saying that Kairi's motive is praiseworthy. I'm saying that the Demon Towers were born from the darkness in Kairi's heart without her say-so due to the misguided motives of the darkness Kairi's heart possesses.

Thank you for the video reminder about the glitch.

But someone else already proved me wrong with this.

Thank you anyway.

Ava says nothing, huh? I doubt that she doesn't regret it, perhaps even if it *is* after she might have broken. She loves Ephemer, as a friend or romantically, too much for that.

Thank you for elaborating on when Luxu might have broken Ava. - Yes, 'the traitor who bears the sigil' was stated in BACK COVER. I recall that. -

Thank you for the CHI finale script and the video Links.

I might look at the CHI finale script, but I doubt that I'll look at the videos. Spoiling myself for Games that I might not play, or won't play at all in the foreseeable future, with scripts are one thing. Spoiling myself for Games that I might not play, or won't play at all in the foreseeable future, with videos of the scenes themselves, are another thing entirely, and I don't do that.

I'm not stating my Yozora/Vanitas/the Master theory as fact. All I'm stating as fact are that Kairi and the Princesses of Heart and Ven possess darkness; Ava and Ephemer are beginning to fall in love, falling in love, or have fallen in love; the guardians of light are pure lights; that Anna and Sora have a strong bond of friendship that, on Anna's side, might involve romantic feelings, weak or medium or strong; and that Sora doesn't care about appearance or other physical issues in relationship to romantic love and recognizes that they're different issues. - I didn't once say that Sora doesn't care about appearance in other ways unrelated to romantic love. - The rest of my arguments are speculation.

But I see what you mean about how I keep coming across as though *all* of my points are fact. I'll be clearer about that in the future.

Am I clear now about which of my points are fact and how the rest are just theories?

I concede. I don't know Kairi as well as Sora or Riku. Yes, it's possible that I'm misinterpreting her facial expressions and body language, and - though I, too, doubt it - that she makes upset faces when she's happy. Very well, unless and until we see her say or think in her own words, that she's vengeful or hateful or angry, et cetera, it's not a fact that she or the Princesses of Heart possess darkness, just a theory.

Thank you very much for reminding me of that.

I still believe that Kairi and the Princesses of Heart possess darkness, but it is no more a fact that they do based on their facial expressions and body language than it is a fact that they don't based on a general Glossary definition.

I took a screenshot by pausing the movie at a place that best suited showing Anna's facial expression. But yes, her facial expressions are open to interpretation as well, as is her body language. I'll stop saying *these* are facts, as well; or, for that matter, anything than that Ven possesses darkness, the guardians of light are pure lights, and that Anna and Sora have a strong bond of friendship. *These* three matters are unarguable, for reasons that should be clear.

I doubt that Anna's facial expressions and body language are as untrustworthy as Kairi's, though, since Anna shows a lot that she doesn't keep her feelings and thoughts hidden. But I'm not Elsa, so I don't know Anna well enough to say for sure. You aren't Elsa yourself, though, so you can't say for sure otherwise.

Arendelle wasn't rushed, though. Nomura spent around four years to five years after FROZEN was released developing Arendelle.

I understand now that you're not dismissing facial expressions and body language as glitches. You did sound like you were saying that earlier, though. If I was wrong, I'm sorry for misunderstanding you.

What, specifically, don't you understand in the three quotes that you used, so I can better clarify?

You have no more proof that the Princesses of Heart possess darkness than I have proof that they do.

Though Sora's and Ven's lines to Vanitas about how any heart can choose light or darkness *is* proof that Princesses of Heart can *choose* darkness as anyone else can. But, for all we know, if a Princess of Heart chooses darkness, she immediately stops being a Princess of Heart and passes on her power. As Elrena/Larxene said, Elsa didn't become a Princess of Heart until she chose light over darkness. So you might be correct.

I have a hard time believing that, once you become a Princess of Heart, the darkness goes away unless you choose it again and thusly stop being a Princess, though. Darkness doesn't work that way. I believe it's more likely that, once you choose the light and become a Seven Heart, you bury the darkness, but it's still there. That, however, is not fact, just speculation.

I was going to ignore your pictures, et cetera, but now that I saw your point about how I don't know Kairi as well as Sora and Riku, I'll respond to them.

Can you please replace Donald with Luxu/Braig/Xigbar in the first two pictures; and Riku with Yozora/Vanitas/the Master, Sora with Xehanort, and Kairi with Anna in the second picture? ~_^ :) :p That would suit my garbage nonsense about how I know Kairi as well as Sora and Riku, and Anna as well as Elsa, et cetera, much better. ~_^ :) :p

Piccolo Sky lost interest in KINGDOM HEARTS.

The group doesn't go to Arendelle itself, but you explore the North Mountain around as much as you explore the areas in other worlds save for Twilight Town, the Keyblade Graveyard, The Final World, Scala ad Caelum, Radiant Garden, and Yozora's warped Station of Awakening. That's not a good counterargument.

The characterization and the plot are far different. Does Anna develop a strong friendship - or another form of bond - with someone else other than Kristoff in the FROZEN movie?

Actually, while the rest is up to interpretation - though your perspective is interpretation as well - Anna and Sora *do* spend a small but sizeable period of time in each other's personal spaces looking into each other's eyes. What this means is open to interpretation, but that they do isn't. I recommend that you re-watch the scene where Anna meets Sora.

And I'd argue that - While I'm not arguing for Sora/Anna. Once more, if there's any romantic feelings involved, they're one-sided on Anna's part. Can you please not use a ridiculous pairing combination word? It reminds me of the popular culture pulp Fanfiction writers on Fanfiction.Net. - since there is the *possibility* Anna, who wears her heart on her sleeve, looks at Sora and smiles at Sora romantically, that is a hint, even though it's up to interpretation whether or not she does so. If you disagree, can you please tell me why you believe that this isn't a hint?

Good. We agree here. Why is this one of your least favorite parts of KINGDOM HEARTS III?

Once more, I didn't say there are any romantic feelings on Sora's part. But if Sora doesn't care about Anna more than most of his friends, why does he feel Anna's pain in his heart when he feels no one else's he isn't merged with or touching, not even Kairi's or Riku's or Goofy's or Donald's; why does he - I'm not saying this is *fact,* just my *interpretation* of Sora's words, facial expressions, and body language - look and sound far more defeated and dispirited than usual when something bad happens after Marshmallow sends him down the North Mountain for the third time; why doesn't he regain his confidence until he teams up with Marshmallow; why is he as desperate to protect and to be there for Anna and Elsa from this point on as Xion, Roxas, and Lea/Axel are desperate to love and to protect each other; why do - *this is my interpretation, not fact* - Goofy and Donald themselves believe that Sora should dump Kairi for Anna as evidenced by them saying that Kristoff and Anna, and Donald and Daisy, are supposedly 'perfect together' when Goofy and Donald rarely talk about romance in KINGDOM HEARTS - they're not talking about Kristoff and Anna or Donald and Daisy, they're indirectly referencing Sora and Anna - why does Sora look as defeated as he does after Anna freezes before he gets up to battle Hans/Skoell; why is Anna looking directly at Sora - *my interpretation, not fact* - when Elrena/Larxene separates them with the darkness dome; and why does Sora sound *extremely terrified and furious, far more so than usual* - *my interpretation, not fact* - about Elrena/Larxene, Xehanort, and company being a danger to Anna and Elsa?

Sora hurt because Anna felt horrific over having failed to be there for Elsa. Sora and Goofy specifically use the same terms that Data-Sora uses to refer to Xion, Roxas, and Lea/Axel when he feels their pain - what Namine calls 'hurt' - in the ending to RE: CODED.

"Something terrible happened, didn't it?"-Data-Sora

"Are ya' hurt?"-Goofy
"No. But... I think something terrible must have happened."-Sora

It had nothing to do with Anna's physical pain. It had to do with Sora understanding how much Anna loves Elsa, far more than anyone else he's met in his life loves another person save perhaps Xion, Roxas, and Lea/Axel, and Sora feeling Anna's pain herself when Anna was horrified and devastated and more, that she'd turned Elsa against her by attempting to love and to protect and to cherish and to be there for her sister.

Apocalyptic, dark attacks = character, thematic, philosophical, plot, and/or setting value.

Sora might not have recognized his love for Kairi was different than friendship love until they reunited after they saved each other from the gigantic Demon Tide and the Lich, but that's further interpretation. What - Though this is further interpretation, too. Do I need to keep saying this now, even with my track record? - Sora learned when he flashed back was that his bond with Kairi is as deep and strong as Anna's and Elsa's bond.

Disney putting restrictions on Arendelle =/= Nomura had no freedom at all. I'm not arguing there weren't restrictions. And that's a separate matter from Disney telling Nomura *to* do something.

There were no genuine FINAL FANTASY characters in the first KINGDOM HEARTS III because Nomura believed that they were unnecessary, but fans took issue with that, so Nomura included them in KINGDOM HEARTS III: RE MIND. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'll agree to disagree about Woody and Buzz - Though I love their characterization as well. And don't forget Hiroshi. - and Anna and Elsa. But Anna's and Elsa's characterization had much more to do with their songs. See my example of why Anna sang 'Do You Wanna' Build A Snowman?' to Sora.

I was under the impression that Hans is similar to characters such as Delita Heiral and Folmarv Tengille. An immoral person who hides his true personality behind a mask. Am I wrong? - If I am, that Hans' ultimate ability is so apocalyptic could be a reference to how Hans is torn between light and darkness. -

Where's your proof that Nomura wants to make money? - He needs money, but he can get that through shoot-em'-ups without a story if necessary. He's not going to sacrifice creativity for Yen. Skilled authors *don't do that.* - I don't know Nomura personally, but this isn't interpretation. This is about believing in someone else whose writings are proof that he values the creative process. Nomura *does* cater to popular culture at times with his drawings, et cetera, but more often than not, he *does not sell out.*

Money isn't important to an author who values the creative process. *Yoshinori Kitase, Tetsuya Nomura, and Kazushige Nojima refused to make money by extending the FINAL FANTASY Games beyond their numbered titles if they couldn't do so with valid storytelling.* This *is* fact from interviews. I'm not being naive. Money *isn't* important to them; storytelling and good Gameplay *are.* Stop degrading Square ENiX's writers, and other writers who value the creative process.

What's 'bold' about saying what we've known since the first KINGDOM HEARTS? KINGDOM HEARTS was *never* about the Square ENiX Games. The Square ENiX Game characters are just cameos, no matter how much role their alternate KINGDOM HEARTS versions have in the story.

And I don't recall KINGDOM HEARTS being marketed as a FINAL FANTASY Game *once.*

I'm not looking up to Nomura too much. I recognize that he makes mistakes. His lack of including a movie version of the scene where Lea/Axel stops Xion and Roxas from murdering each other in the movie version of KINGDOM HEARTS: THREE HUNDRED FIFTY-EIGHT DAYS OVER TWO is perhaps my biggest gripe with Nomura at this point.

Sora gets extremely upset in KINGDOM HEARTS III where he didn't in earlier Games because, as Namine warned in RE: CODED, if he felt Xion's, Roxas', Lea's/Axel's, Aqua's, Terra's, and Ven's pain, he might break, and - *this is all interpretation, not fact* - that began to happen once he did. First he comes close to giving up after battling Xemnas in DREAM DROP DISTANCE. He shouldn't have fallen into darkness after battling Xemnas. Become physically exhausted by defeating replica Xemnas on his own, yes. Fall into darkness, no. This happened because the pain of Xion's, Roxas', Lea's/Axel's, Aqua's, Ven's, and Terra's that he felt is now getting to him badly. Riku pulls Sora out of this darkness, but in KINGDOM HEARTS III, things increasingly get worse for Sora, and he's more and more helpless and powerless to be there for the friends, old and new, that he loves.

When Sora leaves to learn how to regain his strength from Hercules, he can't stop Hades from capturing Zeus and the other Gods. By the time Xehanort's Heartless/Ansem and Xemnas tell Sora that he needs to give into the darkness to bring Roxas back, Sora *actually considers doing so,* even though Sora attempts to justify it by saying 'it's not darkness if it helps someone.' Riku and Terra know better than *that.* *Then* Sora fails to stop Young Xehanort from corrupting Buzz, and he's on the verge of losing his faith in his essential belief that 'friends are connected even when apart' until Woody backs him up. *Then* Sora can't protect Rapunzel and Flynn from Gothel and Lauriam/Marluxia and Gothel stabs and nearly murders Eugene, or return Boo home soon enough to keep her from going through a number of traumatizing experiences that threaten to turn her laughter into tears, even though this doesn't happen. *Then* Sora is completely and wholly helpless and powerless to do anything to fall down the mountain three times while Anna and Elsa, two people he has connected with more than most anyone else, suffer horrifically and nearly die or lose their hearts. *Then* Davy Jones stabs William before Sora's very eyes while he's right there, and Sora finally snaps partially and attacks Davy Jones out of anger and hate. *Then* the Darkubes endanger two-thirds of Big Hero Six, though this time Sora protects the new friends that he loves.

But it's too late at this point. Sora has gone through failure after failure, helplessness after helplessness, powerlessness after powerlessness, defeat after defeat. By the time the gigantic Demon Tide takes everyone's hearts, Sora is *falling apart.* Riku and Kairi and Namine and the Nameless Star restore Sora's confidence, but then Xemnas captures Kairi and Xehanort murders her before Sora's eyes, and this time Sora is so wrecked that he can't even emphatically express his pain and despair. He just cries, shots, "Kairi! Why her!? Why!?" and gives up.

At the end of RE MIND, when Sora says, for the third time in the series, 'My friends are my power.' when defeating Xehanort's Keyblade Armor, he does so trailing off: "My friends... are my power." Sora is so damaged at this point, in so much pain, in so much despair, and has lost so much faith in himself that Sora is no longer sure that he believes in his most central value. He still believes in his *friends,* yes. But he's no longer sure that he believes in *himself.*

Roxas *does* react to seeing Ven, and vice versa. Re-watch the scene where Xehanort re-forges the Kye-Blade.

Kairi is *not* different from her KINGDOM HEARTS personality in any sense other than that she's grown up and takes things more seriously now, and that she, like Sora, feels far more frustrated and helpless and powerless and incapable of loving and protecting her friends, both old and new.

Aqua is still very emotionally exhausted from just having left the realm of darkness, and 'good morning Ven' is an explicit reference to the first time Ven was asleep when she met him, so that phrase means *a lot* to Aqua's bond with Ven and to Aqua herself. But I might agree with this one. Nomura said at the beginning of the Artbook to the Limited Edition of KINGDOM HEARTS III, that I own, that he rewrote the finale to KINGDOM HEARTS III multiple times because he was unsure how to do it right and at last came to believe that 'simple is best.' I have mixed feelings about whether that was a good creative choice.

Partially conceded, but Nomura still had plenty of time to do FROZEN Arendelle correctly.

I conceded that most of my theories aren't facts above.

Where's the Luxu/Braig/Xigbar version of the first Meme, and the Yozora/Vanitas/the Master, Xehanort, and Anna version of the second? ~_^ :) :p

Anna maybe having romantic feelings for Sora - that might not yet be true romantic love - doesn't mean that Sora returns her feelings - And even if he *did,* that doesn't mean that he's lost interest in Kairi at all. There's such a thing as a love triangle. - I *do* see that Sora's romantic love relationship is with Kairi - Can you *please* dispense with the combined names? They're degrading to romantic bonds. - and has been such since the first Game.

Factual proof yourself that Anna *isn't* beginning to fall in love with Sora, isn't falling in love with Sora, or isn't in love with Sora, please. Otherwise, this time, you *are* being a hypocrite.

I don't 'ship anyone. I don't do that. I back up romances when I see them as *potentially valid.*

Nomura hasn't commented on why because it should be clear from the context.

Your interpretation of why Sora says 'love' is one that I agree with, but I'm not sure that that's the sole reason that he says the word 'love.' Another reason is likely that he hasn't *encountered* anyone who loves another as purely - I'm still using this word in the figurative sense even though I've conceded that most of my supposed 'facts' are interpretations - and as much as Anna loves Elsa, so this *taught Sora in a very powerful, very emotionally powerful way,* what love is.

We agree on something even with my idiocy. Hooray! ~_^ :) :p

For the eleventh time, *I haven't once said that Sora returns Anna's feelings.* Nor did I say that I believe Rapunzel feels any matters romantic for Sora. I'm just acknowledging Face My Fears' words.

I see nothing wrong with friendship. You don't know who you're talking to. I *loathe* popular culture pulp 'Fanfiction' writers' tendencies to distort friendship love into romance. I've *loathed* it since Fanfiction.Net was created. A number of friends and acquaintances of mine from IcyBrian's and I attempted to put an end to it when Fanfiction.Net had its initial Message Boards around the time CHRONO CROSS came out and to convince the people there to value art and be creative, and our response was usually:

'We cn rite wat we wnt!!!!11111 B cretiv!!!!!!111111111'

I recall one, at least partial, success, however. One idiot, who used the Fanfiction.Net Name Lit3Bolt, got very angry, and my friend Jeremy - he doesn't mind his real name being used Online - Jerm. Jerm is *very good* at parodying idiots - You should see the portions of his Site where he Posted his response to an idiot attempting to convince him to look at pictures of naked girls or women. He *had a blast* making her look like the *complete, total idiot that she was.* I should tell Jerm about your Memes and ask *him* to improve them, but I dropped out of touch with him years ago and I don't know if he's played KINGDOM HEARTS, so he might not be able to parody or snark me as well as he usually does. - so he parodied and snarked *the heck out of* Lit3Bolt with the Thread Title "What I Learned From Lit3Bolt." He sarcastically parodied and snarked *every single one* of Lit3Bolt's angry, narrow-minded sentences in hilarious ways. Though, regrettably, the sole line of Jerm's that I remember was, "I apologize for being intelligent. I hear it's contagious."

This convinced Lit3Bolt that he was wrong. Lit3Bolt responded to Jerm's Thread title with a title, "What I Learned From Jerm," apologized for his attitude, and grew up.

If I feel like seeing if Jerm still has one or more of his parodies and snarkings of idiots up on his Site - if his Site is still up - would you be willing to attempt to do what he did to them to me, please? ~_^ :) :p

Though I'm not sure that I'll do that. I don't want to find out that Jerm has taken among the best Fanfiction and earliest Fanfiction that I've read - from as far back as at least 1996 and/or 1997 and/or 1998, if not sooner; I can't remember, regrettably - down from his Site.

Once again, can you *please* stop using degrading combined names for romantic bonds and thus belittling them?

A third Meme. - Is this a Meme? - You included Xehanort this time. Hooray! ~_^ :) :p

Can you please improve that one, too? ~_^ :) :p

Yes, I have no proof. But I have evidence. They're two different issues. Evidence is interpretation. Proof is fact.

Nor do you have proof yourself that Anna *doesn't* have any romantic feelings for Sora.

For the eleventh time, I'm not saying that Sora returns Anna's feelings, just that he - *an interpretation, not fact* - would if Kairi rejected him.

And for the fourth time, *can you please stop using distorting compound names for romantic bonds?*

SentimentOfTruth:
Okay, you didn't say that facial expressions and/or body language were glitches. I'm sorry for misunderstanding you.

I *did not say I was right about the majority of my points. Just a minority.* And those - with three sets of exceptions - I recently conceded are just interpretations as well.

The Glossary Entry is third-person omniscient, yes, but third-person omniscient can still use language figuratively. And *you yourself* have no proof that the Glossary Entry is meant literally and not figuratively.

Thank you for the screenshot, but I didn't forget the Glossary Entry.

Anna doesn't begin singing 'I Wanna' Build A Snowman' out of nowhere. She - *this is interpretation, not fact, I'm not saying otherwise* - sang it because it expresses Elsa's and her situation and her feelings about her past and present with Elsa, such as her terror that she can't be there for Elsa, and Anna needs support about this and is looking to Sora for that support because, when Anna looked in Sora's eyes, she recognized how much he loves the people he cares about herself and she knows that she can trust him with Elsa's situation and her pain. But, even if my interpretation of why Anna sang it is wrong, - the following is *not* interpretation, this is faith in Nomura's skill and experience with the creative writing process - Anna would *not* sing it for no reason. Nomura is a *far better* writer than that.

I didn't once say that fiction doesn't need proof. I said that fiction is figurative, not literal. There's a distinct difference.

And it *is* most likely fact - though it's possible that Ansem the Wise was lying, at least partially, or that he was mistaken about how he felt and thought when he said this to Mickey; but I doubt it, given Ansem's other characterization at this point and afterwards - that Ansem the Wise no longer cares about vengeance before he unleashes his contraption on Xemnas' artificial Kingdom Hearts. Ansem says so himself when he reunites with Mickey.

'Literature* *sure as heck* refers to Video Games. Any medium that tells a story, unless it's popular culture garbage like much of what United States society publishes and Fanfiction fandoms 'put out' as 'unpublished writing,' is literary art.

Characters in good literary art are realistic, and therefore should be treated as realistically as real people. How I'm talking about the characters is how you're supposed to approach good literary art. KINGDOM HEARTS' characters aren't caricatures, one-dimensional, or two-dimensional. They're fully realized in-depth three-dimensional characters.

I disagree about Rose, but I don't know what your issues are with her, so I won't argue this.

Face My Fears:
Astertide
proved that *I* have no proof about Anna - though I doubt that more than with Kairi, as Anna wears her heart on her sleeve - but joking about how two people who are friends love each other romantically isn't funny, given society's tendency to distort friendship love into romantic love.

I'm not asking you to improve *this* one. It's offensive to friendship and friendship love.

Zip:
I'm not talking about Sora paying attention to appearance at all, just in 'connection' to romantic love.

However, though I'm not attempting to force my mindset onto Sora, I *am* being an idiot about it. See my above response to Astertide.

Oracle Spockanort:
Can you please give Astertide permission to Post his or her initial three 'Memes' - or what they are - on Page Four and Page Six of the initial version of this Thread, and improved versions of them if he or she is willing to improve them, on Reddit as well?

I'd like him or her to just do so, but I don't know if that's against the rules and if he or she needs your permission.

***

Astertide:
Thank you further for pointing out that I was treating Kairi's facial expressions and body language as fact without knowing her that well. Now that I'm considering that the Princesses of Heart *might* need to be bereft of darkness to be Princesses, and that if they use darkness even a single time they cease being Princesses, I'm thinking of using that in my Fanfiction series.

I'm not certain I can, though. My current plan is for the Princesses of Heart to become capable of wielding both light and darkness, in charge of their darkness as Riku is in charge of his, and I spent a number of hours in two recent days developing their original and Square ENiX Game movesets, with a small amount of input from Piccolo Sky. - I didn't think that Namine and Minnie are the last two New Seven Hearts until yesterday; I was using Giselle and Morgan.

I haven't irrevocably set a lot their Square ENiX Game moves yet save for the ones that they've already used in the Chapters that I've Posted, but Elsa *needs* Giga Gaia's Water Surge, Gaia Magnade, Doublehand Blaster, and Dark Plasma, Zeal's Starburst, and Lavos' Dark Flame's Embrace and Diabolic Whisper; Anna *needs* Zeal's Halation, Lavos' Heavenly Tears, Demon Star, Unholy Light, and Dreamreaver as well as Ultima's Eschaton and Zodiark's Final Eclipse; and Kairi *needs* Zeal's Heavenly Gate, Gears of Darkness, and the Dream Devourer's Devours Dreams From a Distant Dimension, Starfall, Heavenly Peal, and An End To All And Nothing and Ultima's Eschaton and Zodiark's Final Eclipse as well as an original Alpha and Omega Eschaton - or Alpha and Omega Ultima - dual tech with Anna and an original Umbral Eclipse dual tech with Anna.

Kairi also possesses a Knight of the Swan body, clothes, and/or Keyblade - I haven't decided which yet - Formchange, since Elsa can't wield a Keyblade, even though Elsa herself, obviously, is the reference to Wagner's Knight of the Swan.

And all three of them might have the Arc Impulse triple tech, the Dark Eternal triple tech - I prefer Ted Woolsey's translation of this over Tom Slattery's 'Eternal Darkness' - and the Grand Dream triple tech - once more, I prefer Ted Woolsey's translation of this over Tom Slattery's 'Mastermune.'

So they can't stop being Princesses of Heart and lose their powers over light once they begin wielding darkness. They need to wield both at equal capacities.

Still, you gave me ideas that I might be able to work into my Fanfiction series somehow. Perhaps Kairi, Anna, Elsa, Rapunzel, and Vanellope keep their light through a completely original set of plot points that don't exist within KINGDOM HEARTS, and Namine and Minnie are regular New Seven Hearts without any Fanfiction-exclusive sets of plot points and just valid interpretations of the established canon who lose their identities as Princesses of Heart once they start wielding darkness as well as light and pass on their powers to Giselle and Morgan, who wield just light. Or vice versa for Namine and Minnie and Giselle and Morgan.

So thank you very much for that.

If I go the route that I'm now considering - though that's still an 'if;' my interpretation that you can be a Princess of Heart or a New Seven Heart even when you wield darkness, intentionally or the darkness acting on it's own, is as valid as yours - how does my 'original plot points for the first five New Seven Hearts wielding both light and darkness, use interpretations of just the established canon for Giselle and Morgan and Namine and Minnie' sound to you?

Kairi *absolutely must* retain her powers over both darkness and light without them decreasing at all, though I won't spoil why. If you read KINGDOM HEARTS: THE GIRL WHO STOLE THE STAR to the end of Chapter Two you'll know why.

***

Does anyone know whether, though Sega published SANDS OF DESTRUCTION, Masato Kato produced it under Square ENiX? If so, then I can take moves from that Game. So long as it's a Role-Playing Game produced or published under Square ENiX - I'm taking moves from Tri-Ace's STAR OCEAN series and from tri-Ace's VALKYRIE PROFILE series for the New Seven Hearts - I consider it a Square ENiX Game and a source for one or more of a New Seven Heart's move or moves.

Which Nomura himself might have done. KINGDOM HEARTS III's Grand Magic concept is *extremely* similar, in name and concept, to the VALKYRIE PROFILE series' Great Magic concept.

***

One last issue for now, and then I'm done with the Edits for now.

This is an interpretative belief, not fact.

If Kairi becomes playable more often, it wouldn't make sense for her to just wield light. Sora does that. If Kairi just wields light their trinity would be unbalanced. As the third member of their trinity, it would make more sense for her to wield both light *and* darkness, as Sora wields light and Riku wields darkness.

***

The following quote is a reference to myself.

I'm moving it up before my name because I don't want to miss this chance to use another quote.

"But boy, did it pick a dud this time."-Luxu/Braig/Xigbar
KINGDOM HEARTS II

Paul

"Ye of detestable name and virtue, false apostle... Thou art bade back to the abyss!! Seraphic Law!!"-Seraphic Law Great Magic Incantation
VALKYRIE PROFILE

P.S.: I'm considering giving that one to Anna and Celestial Star to Kairi.
 
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astertide

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Ok, wow, so now we have a part 2.

I'll reply to both the "Princess of Hearts Darkness Screenshot" thread and "The Foretellers And The Sins" thread in the next message.
I'd read the Foretellers thread first and got super confused, and then I realised there was a new thread lmao



But I'll just ask first, why is using the ship names degrading?

"SoKai," "Soriku," "Sorapunzel" and "Soranna" are literally what they're called on the shipping wiki. It's what the fandom decided to call them, not me.
 

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Astertide:
Just because a portion of a fandom said idiotic things on a Wikipedia that they shouldn't say doesn't mean that you're not insulting and degrading literary art by using their terminology yourself.

You'll be pleased to know that, when you read my response to your Posts in the last version of this Thread, that you've convinced me that I was wrong to call facial expressions and body language factual proof, or to call a lot of other matters factual proof.

Paul

". . . . . . ???"-Shion Uzuki
XENOSAGA: Episode 3:
ALSO SPRACH ZARATHUSTRA
 

Trapinchmon

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Ship name portmanteaus have been a thing forever on the internet, they're not degrading or insulting, they literally exist to express a concept in a cutesy shorthand.

"I ship Terraqua."

vs.

"I'm deeply invested in the (likely or unlikely) romantic relationship of the two characters Terra and Aqua based on my interpretation of canon."

It's benign fandom jargon.
 

Lacan Valeth

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Trapinchmon:
They've been *far* from around forever Online. They didn't exist on Nintendo Power's Official Website in its Fanfiction section, or on GARGOYLES Fanfiction archives, or on the numerous Role-Playing Game Fanfiction Archives such as Guardia or IcyBrian's. They didn't show up until Fanfiction.Net came around.

A number of acquaintances and friends of mine from IcyBrian's, and I myself, attempted to put an end to the name combinations, among other methods a lot of Fanfiction writers on Fanfiction.Net used to distort and warp Fanfiction, but it was to no avail, for th most part.

It's not benign, it trivializes romantic bonds, and it's *sure as heck* not 'fandom jargon.' It's not, in any way, representative of Fanfiction fandom, or any fandom. Most of Fanfiction.Net's stories *are not, in any way whatsoever,* Fanfiction, nor are the practices of most of the people on Fanfiction.Net.

Paul

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SUIKODEN III
 

astertide

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... You know what I said about replying to the other stuff in this message?
That can wait.

It... is fandom jargon if people understand it that way... Saying "I ship SoKai" makes sense. What do you consider fandom jargon and not fandom jargon? Ship, Pairing, OTP? Yuri, Yaoi, Slash, Femslash, Het, M/M, F/F, M/F? MCD? Dead Dove? Smut, Lemon, PWP? (sorry kids)

It doesn't... trivialize romantic bonds. It's just quicker than saying "Sora and Kairi." You're saving three syllables of speech, there.

If you believe it does "trivialize romantic bonds," then sure. But these are fictional characters. A writer can choose whether to put them together romantically, as a friendship, whatever they choose. Just writing fanfiction about someone is already making something up about them. They're not... real people.

You said "To each his or her own choices and beliefs, so long as you don't hurt someone with them." in the other thread. How is this hurting you?
 
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Trapinchmon

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"Forever" is hyperbole. I could go investigate the actual date and time that they first came around, but FFnet is very old in internet terms. Y'know, like how most memes age out in mere weeks. FFnet is a veritable dinosaur.

Heck, I could argue back that it likely did exist in obscure certain fandom circles, mostly because your examples of Nintendo Power and Gargoyles are hardly representative of the entire internet, especially when email groups, instant messengers and personal websites were also vehicles for fandom and were microcosms of what we have today. Most of those vanished when Geocities went down, however -- if I recall correctly -- so finding a good timeline is a gargantuan effort and I am too tired for that lol.

Also it may be because I am exhausted, but am I reading you right? Are you saying, er, fanfics on Ye Olde Fanfiction dot Net are not...they're not fanfiction?

Gonna be honest. That's wild.

Am I like, Riku talking to the Repliku representative of fanfiction?

Anyways, how do ship names trivialize romantic bonds when they're merely just shorthand for character relationships? Asking for a friend.
 

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Nintendo Power isn't the end all of fandom history.

Popslash popularized ship portmanteaus in the early 2000s, which carried over into other larger fandoms and popular culture overall.

Even then, portmanteaus of ship names existed long before then. I'm fairly certain you can go back as far as Star Trek fanzines in the late 1960s to find the use of portmanteaus, although not as commonly used back then, but still used in certain zine circles.

This has been a fandom thing across the board for 20 years and has existed for nearly 60 years in fandom culture.
 

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Astertide:
It's not hurting me, it's hurting literary art and the creative process. - I have no idea what 'OTP' and two of your other terms mean, and I don't *want* to know what the two other terms I'm unfamiliar with mean.

I consider 'pairing' fandom jargon. The rest I find insulting to literary art, save for the three terms that I don't know, though since the last two are written around the same places that you refer to idiotic Fanfictions that deal with physical issues, I'm pretty sure that they're insulting to literary art. Perhaps 'OTP' isn't, but I'm unfamiliar with it.

Fictional characters are art, and good art treats characters realistically, so characterization should be referred to realistically.

Trapinchmon:
Fanfiction.Net is hardly a dinosaur. It came around in 1999, I believe. I can't recall. Most Fanfiction writers ignored it in its initial years, including me. If you want old, try the Gargoyles Fan WebSite, The Phantasy Star Pages, The Shrine to Ghaleon - the first two Role-Playing Game Fanfiction archive WebSites that I encountered save for Nintendo Power's Fanfiction archive, but it didn't use the term 'Fanfiction' so I didn't know the fan stories on it were Fanfiction - and Guardia. They've been around since 1996 or sooner, maybe - I didn't find out when they first came Online or don't remember.

Yes, I'm saying that most of the Fanfictions on Fanfiction.Net aren't Fanfiction. They're popular culture pulp garbage that don't treat literature as art and just care about catering to the masses for popularity. Do you call popular culture pulp garbage books or movies 'books' or 'movies?' You call them 'turkeys.'

Pairing names trivialize romantic bonds because they make light of them and don't treat them seriously. They treat them as something 'cute,' not something genuine. It's akin to, as an old close friend of mine who I lost touch with years ago who used, or uses, the Online Name Mieu, put it, 'taking the darkest and most beautiful depths of the human soul and trivializing them by calling it "angst."' 'Angst' is another term that I don't like, and I refuse to use it in regards to suffering and dark emotions.

Oracle Spockanort:
It doesn't matter who or what popularized combined names, or how long they've been 'across the board.' They're wrong and degrading to literature, in the same ways movies with senseless violence and flashy explosions are wrong and degrading to literature, and they're not representative of Fanfiction or any fandoms.

Even if they *did* predate Fanfiction.Net since the 1,960s, that doesn't make them any more okay. Writing is an art, not a means of making money and/or attaining popularity.

Paul

"Enough with you and your stories!"-Tidus
FINAL FANTASY X
 

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It doesn't matter who or what popularized combined names, or how long they've been 'across the board.' They're wrong and degrading to literature, in the same ways movies with senseless violence and flashy explosions are wrong and degrading to literature, and they're not representative of Fanfiction or any fandoms.

Even if they *did* predate Fanfiction.Net since the 1,960s, that doesn't make them any more okay. Writing is an art, not a means of making money and/or attaining popularity.
What do ship portmanteaus have to do with making money or attaining popularity?

You really shouldn't engage in any fandom, then. If you can't operate within the regular confines of fandom culture and any subset that these things fall under, you are just talking to yourself and will never enjoy any piece of fandom media you consume. Everybody else is having a good time while you are deconstructing things that do not need to be deconstructed, criticizing things with erroneous data because you feel your incorrect "facts" matter above all else, or you ignore actual facts because you have no desire to actually engage in media as it was meant to be understood and just feel like you need to galaxy brain yourself and others into your madness.
 

Face My Fears

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Face My Fears:
Astertide
proved that *I* have no proof about Anna - though I doubt that more than with Kairi, as Anna wears her heart on her sleeve - but joking about how two people who are friends love each other romantically isn't funny, given society's tendency to distort friendship love into romantic love.

I'm not asking you to improve *this* one. It's offensive to friendship and friendship love.
So it's offensive when I JOKE that Ariel is Sora's type because she has red hair and his canon love interest - Kairi - has red hair too? It's offensive because of society's tendency to distort friendship into romantic love... YET YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE AND ARE ACTUALLY DISTORTING SORA/ANNA'S "FRIENDSHIP LOVE" INTO "ROMANTIC LOVE".

Either you're a hypocrite or you need to take the advice you gave me and "improve on this one". Your distortion of Sora/Anna's friendship and friendship love into romantic love offends me.
 

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Paul, I'm turning to dust as I type this, but...1999 was twenty one years ago. People who wrote fanfic back in 1999 have kids old enough to post there.

Also you emphasize Spockanort's point more with your examples. All those individual websites likely had their own "practices" for lack of a better term and existed prior to big sites like FFnet.

Okay, I laughed at "turkeys", but otherwise I really don't agree. FFnet is at most a vehicle for amateur writers and hobbyists to write for fun. People can certainly write some beautiful works, but I don't expect nor want fourteen year olds to feel obligated to pump out master works to lofty standards. Nor any peers of mine who are just goofing off while their real passion exists elsewhere.

Also the whole argument about quality versus trashy fun in fandom is definitely making me feel old because FFnet had those "fan wars" in spades. Different people want different things out of fandom, the end.

Also also, I thought Shiki wanted Riku? LMAO Can't believe Spockanort is mischaracterizing Shiki so severely. Unconscionable.
 

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Also also, I thought Shiki wanted Riku? LMAO Can't believe Spockanort is mischaracterizing Shiki so severely. Unconscionable.
It's why I added the question marks because honestly she is the only outlier besides Strelitzia (y'know since she hasn't met Sora...yet...?)

Even Strelitzia is referred to as a redhead on the wiki. 👀
Her time will come soon enough
 

Face My Fears

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All the redheads want Sora.

Ariel. Kairi. Anna. Lea. Quasimodo. Shiki???
LOL! Amid all this madness and screenshots and facial analysis... I didn't even notice/remember that Anna was a red head.

And OMG Sora/Shiki could work... although I really wanted Riku/Shiki. But does she count as a red head because her real life form has black hair. I'm hoping the OP weighs in on this dilemma.
 
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