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Roxas's appearance and connections



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Wonderful

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Yes, but not everyone reads those interviews. Let's be honest now. You can even see that with the questions about KH being asked lately..
do... you not understand what we're talking about here right now?

Played the DS or watched the HD movie?
both? it's just not a well written game. and leans on nomura's worst habits with game-interview segregation.

Played the DS or watched the HD movie? I mean c'mon if you don't like Days that's fine, no one is going to hold it against ya, but to say that DDD was more coherent than Days?
we're talking about the issue of crucial plot information being left only in interviews, and yeah, i definitely think in that regard ddd was better.
 

BlackOsprey

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Days makes sense as long as you play KH1, CoM, KHII and maaaybe BBS in advance. Otherwise, it wasn't much worse than any of the other games when it came to "interview-exclusive answers." (Though that may not be saying much...)
 

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Like a part of me thinks you're trolling us but I'll drop it. We're derailing the convo.
 

Keyblade Meister

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He couldn't naturally dual wield because Ven's heart was sleeping. Xion's death triggered it but she never took dual wielding from him in the beginning.
Roxas was not born dual wielding but he could have if some conditions were met.

I believe the video will explain the explanation better. Roxas was a combination of two keybladers hearts which is why he can duel blade but as you can see in 358 Xion was making him weak and taking apart of him, soras memories etc, with Xion's death Roxas became whole and with Roxas's death sora became whole.

https://youtu.be/yKFVsv0-X30
 

Keyblade Meister

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Also to add during Roxas fight with Riku he barley remembered who Xion was. if grief unleashed that power it wouldn't it slowly leave him as they battle went on and he forgot
 

Wander

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The video is wrong. Xion's Keyblade is a replica, or as Riku puts it, "a sham". Roxas could not summon two Keyblades originally because Ventus' heart was dormant until Xion's death stirred him and awakened Ven'd Keyblade. There's an interview about this posted on the previous page, silly to not believe it. Xion was leeching power from Roxas, but it didn't affect his ability to wield the Keyblade. Sora also didn't need Roxas to die to be whole originally, but since Naminè diddlied with his memories and Roxas just happens to have the memories he's missing they decided to capture him.

Anyway, it's not like any of these details matter in the grand scheme of things. Roxas can wield two Keyblades, woo.
 

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I believe the video will explain the explanation better. Roxas was a combination of two keybladers hearts which is why he can duel blade but as you can see in 358 Xion was making him weak and taking apart of him, soras memories etc, with Xion's death Roxas became whole and with Roxas's death sora became whole.

https://youtu.be/yKFVsv0-X30

Since it was missed last page:

Q4: Why can Roxas dual-wield?
A: Because he can use both Sora’s and Ventus’ keyblades.

Sora can wield two keyblades at once because he has Ventus’ as well as his own. As Roxas is a part of Sora, he also can use two. In Days Roxas awakened his ability to dual wield after fighting Xion. In KHII once Sora absorbs him, he can also dual-wield.

[picture: Roxas and Riku fighting]

Roxas awakens his ability to dual-wield with his will to not forget Xion who also wielded a keyblade.
link: BBS Ultimania - 20 Mysteries Solved! - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider

Also her keyblade wasn't even real

- Namine tells Riku that in order for Sora's memories to be restored, both Sora's Nobody and Xion must no longer exist. So he takes it on himself to defeat them, but when he and Roxas fought, was that the first time he had realized that Roxas was that Nobody?

Nomura: Riku only realizes it when Roxas takes off his hood and he can see his face, and he responds to his call. Until then he only half believed. When he first met Xion, he didn't think that she was Sora or Kairi's Nobody, and it was the same with Roxas. When he first saw Roxas, he had no proof of who he was. So that's why he lost to Roxas, he was surprised at him using a real keyblade rather than an imitation like Xion's, and he called out to him. Part of Riku didn't really want to believe that his best friend really had a Nobody.
Link: 358/2 Days Scenario Interview - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider

---
You'd be wise not to put much faith in youtube or the wiki if your gonna keep up with and argue lore. In the end both are usually very wrong and full of personal interruption. You'd do better to comb through the interview section on the main page.
 

Wonderful

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maybe someone should try proving it without nomura interviews

remember how in the game, when roxas first dual wields he is holding two kingdom keys and then he turns them into oblivion and oathkeeper? that was the dumbest thing nomura could've done if he wanted it to be clear that roxas was using ven's keyblade and not xion's "keyblade". like why isn't he holding the kingdom key and ventus' keyblade there? that would have made everything so much more clear for every player.
 

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maybe someone should try proving it without nomura interviews

remember how in the game, when roxas first dual wields he is holding two kingdom keys and then he turns them into oblivion and oathkeeper? that was the dumbest thing nomura could've done if he wanted it to be clear that roxas was using ven's keyblade and not xion's "keyblade". like why isn't he holding the kingdom key and ventus' keyblade there? that would have made everything so much more clear for every player.

It can be done. Back before the fanbase reached this point (when people still theorized or debated big) many theories were proven true with interviews. With the right interruption you can get the same answers the problem is it's interruption. Interviews became so vital and debate killing because you didn't need to argue anymore since Nomura's own words are hard to argue unless the game contradicts.

So much could've been easier and explained better man. The keyblade thing was just one of them. T_T I've seen so many ideas like yours there that would've been a far simpler story but having the same results with game-established lore only.....*sighs* What a mess this story is now.....

I remember older days when Nomura wanted ambiguity like that. Now you just get the game then the info dumb that should've been IN THE game in magazines.
 

Wonderful

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someone should make a nomura-free thread and see how many of the big mysteries can be answered using just the games. it'd be interesting to see what ones you can reasonably come up with and what ones you definitely need the interviews for.
 

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someone should make a nomura-free thread and see how many of the big mysteries can be answered using just the games. it'd be interesting to see what ones you can reasonably come up with and what ones you definitely need the interviews for.
A user called Audo tried to do something like that, but promptly gave up on it.
 

Audo

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A user called Audo tried to do something like that, but promptly gave up on it.
My ears are ringing.

Mysteries of Kingdom Hearts

I gave it another attempt. Very slow going however. I'm only partway through Chain of Memories.

EDIT:
I think it could be fun if we did a thread tho. Like Wonderful suggested. My project is going to take forever to actually get anywhere, if, in the mean time, you guys worked together to come up with answers to the mysteries, it could be neat. You'd just have to say, you know, no Interviews or Ultimanias. Just use the actual games for once, lol.
 
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BlackOsprey

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Did I just temporarily summon this guy out of his hiatus? o_o

This does sound interesting, though. I'm used to keeping track of KH lore without the help of interviews (I learned of their existence only about five months ago), and I wonder just how coherent and solid this all can be without em.
 

Audo

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Did I just temporarily summon this guy out of his hiatus? o_o
What can I say? I'm an attention whore.
All it takes is the utterance of my name and my hand shoots out of the grave.

(In actuality, I've been considering coming back but only hanging out in the Creative Writing section to avoid spoilers and have been eyeing the new Writing Contest so I was already hanging around this past day or two, lol)

This does sound interesting, though. I'm used to keeping track of KH lore without the help of interviews (I learned of their existence only about five months ago), and I wonder just how coherent and solid this all can be without em.
Yeah I think it could be good. Just a little something to keep the forum active for a bit. Could even be more of a collaborative effort instead of the endless "trying to prove people/theories wrong" sort of thing that is the typical mode of engagement in the FoKH. You'd have to go in with the right mindset and be very focused on hard textual evidence and questioning what you know from the games and what you know from Nomura but it could be really cool if people were up for it.
 

BlackOsprey

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Yeah I think it could be good. Just a little something to keep the forum active for a bit. Could even be more of a collaborative effort instead of the endless "trying to prove people/theories wrong" sort of thing that is the typical mode of engagement in the FoKH. You'd have to go in with the right mindset and be very focused on hard textual evidence and questioning what you know from the games and what you know from Nomura but it could be really cool if people were up for it.
*strokes non-existent beard*

I wonder... just how many questions from the Nomura interviews could be answered using in-game sources only?
This sounds almost like a research assignment from school, except I'm actually interested in the topic.
 

Sephiroth0812

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remember how in the game, when roxas first dual wields he is holding two kingdom keys and then he turns them into oblivion and oathkeeper? that was the dumbest thing nomura could've done if he wanted it to be clear that roxas was using ven's keyblade and not xion's "keyblade". like why isn't he holding the kingdom key and ventus' keyblade there? that would have made everything so much more clear for every player.

That's the point though, Nomura did not WANT to be clear YET.
You have to remember that Days was released before Birth by Sleep and having Roxas pull out Wayward Wind would thus have been already a huge spoiler.
Nomura also was not clear in the Days-Interviews either, as there he only spoke about Xion's disappearance "awakening" the second Keyblade within Roxas, and not that Rox was using Xions:
-- In the end Roxas is able use two keyblades. Is this because he now has Xion's?
Nomura: Well, it isn't that Roxas has physically inherited Xion's keyblade, but more that Xion has awakened it within Roxas. In the KH series there are a lot of complex reasons why someone can use a keyblade, but basically you need a "heart" to be able to wield one. So strictly speaking, they are being influenced by Sora. At the present I can't say more than that, since it would go into whether or not Roxas has a heart. And there is also a part that has to do with Xehanort's memories. This time there were connections to the Kingdom Hearts I secret movie, and the time will come when this will have a clear connection as well. You'll just have to ask me then.

Here as usual Nomura is dancing around the subject because he didn't want to spoil anything regarding BBS. In the second part of the answer I bolded he's actually talking about BBS as "Xehanort's memories" were an early synonym for BBS.
In that light we may have also to keep in mind that BBS was originally the only part of the story Nomura and Square Enix planned in advance (while he was working on KH 2, he already had concepts for BBS), as Days was the result of Nintendo requesting another game for their consoles while Coded was requested by Disney if I remember correctly.

The interview snippet Anagram posted about whereit is made clear that Roxas dual-wields Sora's and Ventus' keyblade and that Xion's demise awakened Ven's Keyblade is from the BBS Ultimania, thus from an information source after the release of BBS. Beating around the bush like in the Days-interviews was thus no longer needed and the reasoning could be clarified directly, which is where the third bolded part of the above snippet comes in.
In the Days-interview Nomura says that the time will come when this has a clear connection as well, and by the time of the BBS Ultimania that time is there.

With both Days and BBS released, Nomura was most likely expecting players to reach the conclusion that Roxas was wielding both Sora's and Ven's Keyblades by themselves, as this is indeed possible with the games alone as it is made clear in Days that Xion's Keyblade is a "sham" as by Riku's own words, a mere copy and thus not real just like she is.
Xemnas also confirmed within Days that Xion is copying the powers of the Keyblade from Sora by siphoning his unchained loose memories through Roxas, who thanks to his close connection to Sora acts as a catalyst, again implying that Xion's Keyblade isn't a real one despite copying its effects and powers.
Then there are also the "Secret Reports" of Days written by several Organisation members, in which both Xemnas and Xigbar drop obscure hints towards "him" and "his" possible relation to Roxas and Sora. One report is even called "Him and Roxas" and is written by Xigbar who refers in it to his time where he was still human (which confirms he's talking about Ven because Sora never met Braig so far).
Ven is only ever referred to as "him" of course yet again to avoid too blatant BBS spoilers.
Add on top of this BBS and its revelations of how Ventus is connected to Sora and his heart coming to rest within him in the finale, and you can put two and two together that if a) Xion's Keyblade is a sham, b) Ventus' heart resides in Sora and c) Roxas looks just like Ven most likely due to the close connection between Ven and Sora, who is Roxas' origin, the second Keyblade is most likely Ven's.

You have to collect all these little things from different sources (there are more within the Secret Reports and dialogue bits, but I don't have the time right now to search for them all) and string them together, but you can reach the same answer as the interviews give eventually.

The interviews only underline with more emphasis what can be reasonably deduced by combining things learnt from both Days and BBS.
The statement that Xion awakened the second Keyblade within Roxas in the Days interview is already a hint at the fact that Roxas is carrying Ventus' heart, which got more implications in the finale of BBS when young Sora allowed Ven's heart to stay with him AND when BBS showed us that foreign hearts entering a body influences its appearance as shown with Terra-Xehanort.
You need a "heart" to wield a Keyblade at all, so Roxas carrying one from the start was a prerequisite for him to be able to physically wield one. The Keyblade itself of course belongs to Sora and that Roxas was able to call on it (and the Keyblade itself allowing Roxas to keep holding it) was due to Roxas' own connection with Sora's heart and him being Sora's Nobody.
Roxas being Ven's "twin-in-appearance" just give more credence to Ven's heart being somehow involved and providing an explanation for the second Keyblade.
It's just that there were also many people who actually overinterpreted the whole issue coming to the wrong conclusion that Roxas and Ventus are actually one and the same entity, forgetting that Ven's heart was inactive most of the time and didn't influence Roxas one bit beyond the appearance.

The BBS Ultimania interview then just spills out word for word what could be only deduced beforehand.

I wonder... just how many questions from the Nomura interviews could be answered using in-game sources only?
This sounds almost like a research assignment from school, except I'm actually interested in the topic.

It can definitely be done with many (but not all) of the mysteries. However it requires very deep digging and dot-connecting with only hints and implications across multiple games in many cases.
Solving one mystery alone on that can already yield an essay-like post and would be long-winded, which is why using the interview-"Hammer" as a shortcut is most often easier and brings the point across faster since nowadays many people are not keen on having to read a long essay with references made to multiple games of the series in order to answer one mystery.

For example the whole "Nobodies can grow new hearts"-fact that so many who don't bother to look into it decry as "retcon" can be derivated with hints and implications from all games starting with Chain of Memories making the "revelation" in DDD nothing but a confirmation of what was kept ambigious and could nonetheless be already suspected.
For someone who saw the implications and hints earlier, this was not a "surprise" in DDD at all and it can be done without referring to a single interview line, but it requires cross-game attention span (and some memory of both dialogue pieces and visual cues) and possibly one or two references to in-game reports.
This is one of the reasons why I have bookmarks for every game-script of the KH games as those include all dialogue for reference searching.

The thing about the dual-wielding Roxas and which the second Keyblade is above also qualifies, although I already shortened that one as much as I possibly could...<__<

Searching for and collecting all those bits across multiple games requires quite some extra work though, especially since the number of games only continues to increase, so resorting to quote a three-line interview paragraph which spills out the facts is also often used as a "shortcut" to give an answer rather than lay out the whole long road to explain it all with the games alone.
 

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Sephiroth0812 said:
The interview snippet Anagram posted about whereit is made clear that Roxas dual-wields Sora's and Ventus' keyblade and that Xion's demise awakened Ven's Keyblade is from the BBS Ultimania

With both Days and BBS released, Nomura was most likely expecting players to reach the conclusion that Roxas was wielding both Sora's and Ven's Keyblades by themselves, as this is indeed possible with the games alone as it is made clear in Days that Xion's Keyblade is a "sham" as by Riku's own words, a mere copy and thus not real just like she is.
In my defense the quote was meant for someone arguing the after-fact. Still not sure if they seen it or just ignore it in favor of their faulty youtube videos but meh.

And THAT just shows Nomura doesn't see how confusing he is. He obviously doesn't know the difference between flatout ambiguous and clues. Granted people as well should pay more attention to the characters referencing her keyblade as a sham. BUUUUUTTTT in their defense you can't expect every fan to remember a single line and piece it together 10hrs later while Roxas is balling, Riku is emo and keyblades are flying. Just a mess. =w=
 

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That's the point though, Nomura did not WANT to be clear YET.
You have to remember that Days was released before Birth by Sleep and having Roxas pull out Wayward Wind would thus have been already a huge spoiler.
would it though? i mean roxas looking like ven is already showing that connection deeply. having him wield the wayward wind, for an unsuspecting player, would likely have just further intrigued them as to their connection which wouldn't be fully revealed until bbs.

and that's another thing, if they still didn't want to use the wayward wind to avoid spoiling it or whatever, why show that scene at all? why have roxas whip out two kingdom keys and then turn them into oblivion/oathkeeper instead of just having him whip out oblivion/oathkeeper from the start? having it be two KKs to start is so clearly deliberate and yet it undercuts the actual game by not having it be the right keyblade for ven, muddling the intended reading further. bleh.

they should've focused on making the game coherent instead of muddling it in service of bbs, imo.

i am sure nomura did want it to be hazy, but i don't think that's a good enough reason to do it the way that they did lol. it just ends up confusing the player, and even if they player has beat both games, due to things like that detail, i still see lots of players confused and believing roxas is using xion's keyblade.

honestly, everything points to the fact that days should've been made/released after bbs. maybe even after ddd so it could really flesh out all the ideas revealed in those games fully.

Nomura also was not clear in the Days-Interviews either, as there he only spoke about Xion's disappearance "awakening" the second Keyblade within Roxas, and not that Rox was using Xions
thing is, even with your explanation that does point out how someone could get there with the games, i have to wonder, like... it's easy to look back over the games after knowing the right-intended answer and then finding the stuff that points to it. but for the average player, is there enough in the games to make it clear to them that xion merely awakened the keyblade in roxas? like nomura clarifies that point in the interview, and once you know that distinction, it's easy to figure out why it would be ven's and not xion's, etc. but is there anything in the game that suggests to the player that xion merely awakened the keyblade in roxas instead of him inheriting it?

we can point to the "sham" line of course, but a player could easily explain that as riku being butthurt about losing the keyblade or whatever (for lack of a better word) and just being wrong (characters are allowed to be incorrect on things after all. and riku is hardly an authority on the keyblade). you can point to the fact that xion is copying powers/abilities as further evidence of her keyblade being a sham, but if it's a sham, then why does it work just like a normal keyblade? why does it allow her to release hearts? why does it allow the formation of Kingdom Hearts if it is fake? and if it is fake and can still do all of those things, why couldn't it also be passed onto Roxas? i mean it appears to work just fine going by everything else in the story.

i just really don't think they did a good enough job with this lol
 
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