roxas' tears

[alex=axel]

hey
im wondering, whats the deal with roxas crying? i thought nobody's couldnt feel, meaning they cant cry, so wtf?

:O crazy theories!

 

[Orion]

It seems that Roxas' borrows Sora's emotional capacity while the latter is asleep, which is how his 'emotions' seem so real.

 

[Smile]

I'd hardly go as far as that.
There's all but nothing really hinting such a 'borrowing'. I'd sooner blame it on the Memories Roxas had or him having a Heart of his own than him using Sora's Heart (even though that would tie in nicely with Namine as well as far as being capable of feeling goes. However - theory only for now).
Roxas cried at points in time in the game where it was called for. Like when he dreamed about Riku snatching the Keyblade from Sora. The Memory carried with it how to cry, and Roxas went along with it.
By the end of the game with Xion disappearing, he just about had all the Memories of Sora that went on between him and Xion. I'd say he was pretty damn capable of pulling it off on his own, without needing Sora's Heart.

 

[Chaos_Riku]

he also was capable to gain friend, to love and hate, sadness, and many different aspects of having a heart. Roxas was a special Nobody and could even cry when he felt sad...but then did not understand what the wetness was (I would have loved a 'why am I leaking?')

 

[Zemnas]

Or perhaps it was just another event that we are meant to speculate because Nomura just loves doing that to us...

 

[XYZ]

Roxas shows emotion before Sora is put to sleep. Like when Axel leaves for Castle Oblivion. Although Roxas does not cry, he has a 'lump' in his throat and cannot stop worrying about Axel, and at the same time does not understand what he is feeling and why. And then when he hears that all of the members sent to Castle Oblivion were eliminated, he is deeply depressed. Upon Axel's return, Roxas is relieved and happy to see his friend again. Not to mention his throat lump goes away.

I feel that there is sufficient evidence to support that Roxas and Sora share Sora's heart because they are the same person, but no one wants to agree.

There's a scene in Kingdom Hearts II: Final Mix+ in which Axel and Naminé come the an agreement that Roxas has a heart.

 

[Smile]

Or perhaps it was just another event that we are meant to speculate because Nomura just loves doing that to us...

He doesn't do it without reason. If he wants us to speculate it's on something he has an answer to, as half assed as it can be.

Roxas shows emotion before Sora is put to sleep. Like when Axel leaves for Castle Oblivion. Although Roxas does not cry, he has a 'lump' in his throat and cannot stop worrying about Axel, and at the same time does not understand what he is feeling and why. And then when he hears that all of the members sent to Castle Oblivion were eliminated, he is deeply depressed. Upon Axel's return, Roxas is relieved and happy to see his friend again. Not to mention his throat lump goes away.

I feel that there is sufficient evidence to support that Roxas and Sora share Sora's heart because they are the same person, but no one wants to agree.

That's sufficient evidence Roxas can feel :\ Sora still being awake during that time could possibly actually be counter evidence to Roxas using his Heart as when they did 'share' a Heart in KH2, Sora was feeling it well enough but nothing of that sort up to then.

There's a scene in Kingdom Hearts II: Final Mix+ in which Axel and Naminé come the an agreement that Roxas has a heart.

Uh, no. There's a scene in the FM+ where Axel asks Roxas if he has a Heart, and if whether or not he himself and Namine truly lack it.

 

[XYZ]

Uh, no. There's a scene in the FM+ where Axel asks Roxas if he has a Heart, and if whether or not he himself and Namine truly lack it.

Yeah, I mixed two scenes together, my bad.

Or did I? Isn't there a scene, maybe a talk bubble scene, with just Axel and Naminé and they talk about what a wonder Roxas was. And I think one of them mentions his heart. I might just want to remember it. I don't really know.

 

[Allister Rose]

i'm guessing Roxas is connected to sora's heart. therefore he can feel all the emotions even though they arent really "inside' him.

easy to explain and very possible

 

[Igshar]

My question is this:

When and where was it officially confirmed that one needs a Heart in the KH Universe to have feelings?

Axel also had feelings towards Roxas throughout the game. Saix clearly felt betrayed by Axel. Xigbar cares about Roxas' future. Demyx seems to feel afraid of fighting particularly tough Heartless.

I've never bought the idea of them needing Hearts to feel. A being with absolutely no emotion would be completely different than the Organization members.

Xemnas even shows emotions at the end of Kingdom Hearts II. He has joy over Kingdom Hearts, for example.

Envy would factor into emotions, too, I feel, and Marluxia clearly envies the Keyblade.

Can you be pissed off and angry all the time without feelings? (Larxene)


Tch, to say that a Heart is required to feel is to be ignorant to the Organization and how they act. I agree that Roxas' emotions are oftentimes more potent than the other Members', but that could simply be because he's such a new being that he has yet to be conditioned under the ruse of "Nobodies cannot feel."

 

[Mister E]

In regards to how the other members act, I recall hearing that they were only acting upon emotions as they remembered them, and weren't actually "feeling" them, so to speak. I always though it was kinda odd though, because Axel seems genuinely emotional at points in KH2, as well as other points mentioned above.

As for Roxas, I guess he somehow retains some semblance of a heart due to the way he was created.

 

[Igshar]

In regards to how the other members act, I recall hearing that they were only acting upon emotions as they remembered them, and weren't actually "feeling" them, so to speak. I always though it was kinda odd though, because Axel seems genuinely emotional at points in KH2, as well as other points mentioned above.

As for Roxas, I guess he somehow retains some semblance of a heart due to the way he was created.

Chain of Memories states that the Memories are directly connected to the Heart. If we are to take this at face value, then the fact the Org Members can remember their human selves means that they have Hearts.

This all leads to lots of inconsistencies, meaning the characters in the games really seem to have no idea what a Heart actually is and what it is responsible for. Nobodies, who lack Hearts, can feel and remember (or even simply remember how to feel) without the base object which has been said to be necessary for either of those two actions by multiple in-game people.

I think I remember a scene where Axel explained why/how they were able to have Memories, but I don't remember what exactly he said. No matter what it was, if it didn't imply that they had Hearts, it effectively retconned CoM, no?

 

[Zero Sora]

When and where was it officially confirmed that one needs a Heart in the KH Universe to have feelings?

Yen Sid - "Nobodies may seem to have feelings, but this is a ruse---they only pretend to have hearts. You must not be deceived!"

This all leads to lots of inconsistencies, meaning the characters in the games really seem to have no idea what a Heart actually is and what it is responsible for. Nobodies, who lack Hearts, can feel and remember (or even simply remember how to feel) without the base object which has been said to be necessary for either of those two actions by multiple in-game people.

When a person becomes a Heartless, the memories disappear into darkness and are transferred over to the Nobody. Just because the memories are connected to the Heart doesn't mean they aren't connected to the rest of a person's being.

 

[Smile]

When a person becomes a Heartless, the memories disappear into darkness and are transferred over to the Nobody. Just because the memories are connected to the Heart doesn't mean they aren't connected to the rest of a person's being.

This in a nutshell. Think about a massive piece of play-dough. You can shape it in whichever way you like.
Think of the Chains of Memories as what shapes the lump of play-dough that is your Heart. Remove the chains and your Heart loses its shape, resulting in Repliku "breaking apart" until Namine pieced him back together, and Zombie Nobodies like Roxas and Xion who had nothing to go by, lacking Memories.
That is not to say that having Memories is the equivalent of having a Heart, however. They have the same shape as what shaped their play-dough, but without the play-dough itself. They go by how they're 'used to'.

 

[Mister E]

If it is the case that Nobodies are just acting on emotions upon what they recall from their past lives, they can be compared to philosophical zombies. Beings who act as if they possess genuine emotion, but truly experience no such things. Of course, the Organisation members have the difference of being able to act on what they've "felt" in their past lives.

Xion and Roxas, as has been said above, didn't have any memories of emotion to act on, so simply didn't express anything at all.

 

[Key of Valor]

I think Roxas was able to shed those tears because he might possess a heart that was gradually developing the ability to feel emotions throughout Roxas' time in the Organization.

Hearts without memories can't feel emotion, as Marluxia explained in CoM. Roxas had no memories in the beginning of KH'Days, thus even if he had a heart he would still start out as an expressionless and emotionless zombie who could barely feel a thing. Even though Roxas lacked memories from before his creation, there is a scene in KH'Days that makes a point of saying that Roxas during his time in the Organization gained memories of his own of that time. Thus if Roxas did have a heart, then these memories Roxas accumulated would enable that heart to progressively feel emotion as the story continued.

 

[Smile]

Hearts without memories can't feel emotion, as Marluxia explained in CoM. Roxas had no memories in the beginning of KH'Days, thus even if he had a heart he would still start out as an expressionless and emotionless zombie who could barely feel a thing. Even though Roxas lacked memories from before his creation, there is a scene in KH'Days that makes a point of saying that Roxas during his time in the Organization gained memories of his own of that time. Thus if Roxas did have a heart, then these memories Roxas accumulated would enable that heart to progressively feel emotion as the story continued.

A Heart without Memories is unusable. See, Repliku. See, what Marluxia said about Sora when he wanted Namine to mind-wipe him. That's what they described in CoM. However, you need Memories to operate whether or not you have a Heart. Hence you're gonna need something better than 'he developed it over time to add to his Heart' to say he really did had a Heart - that seems to be the case for both Nobodies as well as whole beings.
The thing is, you're saying he became able to "feel" due to gaining Memories. However that can be used to explain his behavior well enough whether or not he has a Heart. Memories are what shapes how a Nobody acts. Of course Roxas would be a zombie from the get-go, he hadn't Memories. And once he did get the Memories that truly made him seem emotional, they can be traced back to Sora - whose Memories also made Roxas cry for the first time, and that Roxas had at the points he was most emotional.

 

[AxelRoxasFan223]

Since nobodies act on memories and they lack no heart so whatever they do they do it based on memories that they remember. Maybe Roxas "remembered" how to cry in his memories and that's why he can cry. Idk :/

 

[Igshar]

This in a nutshell. Think about a massive piece of play-dough. You can shape it in whichever way you like.
Think of the Chains of Memories as what shapes the lump of play-dough that is your Heart. Remove the chains and your Heart loses its shape, resulting in Repliku "breaking apart" until Namine pieced him back together, and Zombie Nobodies like Roxas and Xion who had nothing to go by, lacking Memories.
That is not to say that having Memories is the equivalent of having a Heart, however. They have the same shape as what shaped their play-dough, but without the play-dough itself. They go by how they're 'used to'.

So the memories would be the skeleton to the Heart's body? Nobodies have the bones, but lack the muscle and flesh. That makes sense to me. Thanks for the clarification. :3

The thing is, you're saying he became able to "feel" due to gaining Memories. However that can be used to explain his behavior well enough whether or not he has a Heart. Memories are what shapes how a Nobody acts. Of course Roxas would be a zombie from the get-go, he hadn't Memories. And once he did get the Memories that truly made him seem emotional, they can be traced back to Sora - whose Memories also made Roxas cry for the first time, and that Roxas had at the points he was most emotional.

And this makes a lot of sense as to why Roxas cried at the end. If you take it as (don't kill me, Smile D a massive Sora+Kairi scene, Roxas (Sora) was watching Xion (Kairi) die. Sora's memories of losing Kairi (beginning and end of KH1) flood into Roxas, thus causing him to cry. Roxas was snagging the memories of Sora all through Days (after Sora was podded), right? Makes sense he'd cry when a particularly sad memory of Sora's entered his chain, especially at the end during the massive flood of memories from Xion to Roxas.


By this same token, remembering how to feel an emotion is about 75-80% identical to actually feeling it. >_> Because you can have Memories without a Heart, I'd say the Organization Members, because they can remember their original selves, actually DO feel things. Again, it's never really been stated by an authority that you require a Heart to feel things. Ansem himself said in his reports that the Heart was far too complex to understand. Yen Sid also made an indirect correlation between Hearts and Feelings, which can be disproven by the facts of the Org Members clearly having emotions while lacking Hearts. :|

 

[Gram]

Maybe Roxas "remembered" how to cry in his memories and that's why he can cry.

I'm gonna agree with this^
it makes the most sense (to me anyway).