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OneDandelion

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Riku literally says that Kairi inspired him to think and act about the outside world. That happens in the first cutscene with the 3 of them. Riku always wanted freedom, the FM cutscenes and Ansem state as such and I only bring that up to refute Face My Fear's claim that anybody besides Sora and Kairi influenced him more than them. Before anyone else assumes anything about my point, I am not denying that Namine, Mickey and Ansem have influenced him, that's foolish, I just do not believe they are as important as Sora's impact. My disagreement focuses only on the Namine/Mickey/Ansem>Sora part.

His goals were always clear and that's why I have an issue with their claim.
Either you've misinterpreted his conversation with Kairi at the beginning or the english translation provides lousy context, but everything about their conversation at the beginning of KH1 makes it sound as if Riku is unsatisfied with Destiny Island simply because Kairi's came from another world, not because of Kairi herself. In other words, it isn't because Kairi herself "inspired him to think and act about the outside world" it's because he learned about the existence of other worlds as a result of her being there. Anyone from the outside world could have played this role for Riku it just happens to be Kairi, so I don't think it's fair to say Kairi (as a character) influenced Riku more than Ansem or Mickey.

Of course it's also made clear that he's her friend but it really isn't ever made clear how close Riku and Kairi are. None of their interactions as far as I'm aware ever show any affection on his part and he doesn't even try looking for Kairi during KH1. Sora on the other hand is clearly demonstrated to be Riku's closest childhood friend since BBS and Riku's motivations are made clear at the end of KH2.
 

Absent

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Either you've misinterpreted his conversation with Kairi at the beginning or the english translation provides lousy context, but everything about their conversation at the beginning of KH1 makes it sound as if Riku is unsatisfied with Destiny Island simply because Kairi's came from another world, not because of Kairi herself. In other words, it isn't because Kairi herself "inspired him to think and act about the outside world" it's because he learned about the existence of other worlds as a result of her being there. Anyone from the outside world could have played this role for Riku it just happens to be Kairi, so I don't think it's fair to say Kairi (as a character) influenced Riku more than Ansem or Mickey.

Of course it's also made clear that he's her friend but it really isn't ever made clear how close Riku and Kairi are. None of their interactions as far as I'm aware ever show any affection on his part and he doesn't even try looking for Kairi during KH1. Sora on the other hand is clearly demonstrated to be Riku's closest childhood friend since BBS and Riku's motivations are made clear at the end of KH2.


Riku literally says that Kairi inspired him to think and act about the outside world. That happens in the first cutscene with the 3 of them. Riku always wanted freedom, the FM cutscenes and Ansem state as such and I only bring that up to refute Face My Fear's claim that anybody besides Sora and Kairi influenced him more than them. Before anyone else assumes anything about my point, I am not denying that Namine, Mickey and Ansem have influenced him, that's foolish, I just do not believe they are as important as Sora's impact. My disagreement focuses only on the Namine/Mickey/Ansem>Sora part.

His goals were always clear and that's why I have an issue with their claim.
 

OneDandelion

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If you don't want to talk about Kairi you could just not respond, but what you implied about her was wrong. The broader point I was making is that Riku's motivation was not entirely driven by Sora or Kairi in KH1 and you're probably underestimating the significance mickey, ansem, and namine played in influencing him. Honestly, Sora has not been shown to directly influence Riku to do much of anything; Riku's development primarily came from the results of his own failures and subsequently comparing himself to Sora's victories.

The only influence Sora has had on Riku was existing as his childhood friend. And at best you might be able to argue Sora 'guided him' to the right path, but that's not exactly true either - they're both playing on the same team but they're mentally at different levels. At this point in time it is not clear to me that Sora or Kairi is necessarily more important to Riku than Mickey is either.

If you're just debating about the faces on his heart station then maybe @Face My Fears is right because Sora has been fairly irrelevant to Riku's development since he was a kid in BBS. But who cares about the faces on the heart station anyway there's no reason to assume that the faces on the heart stations are necessarily the most significant connections the characters have.
 
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OneDandelion

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The entire story of Neverland in KH1 disagrees with you.

you mean after he "sided with the heartless", throws her in the brig, then kidnaps her and brings her to hollow bastion to use her heart? He's clearly using Kairi to provoke Sora here, idk how you're using that as an indicator that he cares about her.
 

Face My Fears

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I'm not saying that Ansem/Mickey/Namine>Sora. My point is simply that they did a lot more during the course of KH1-3 to actually affect change in Riku than Sora did. Ansem brought Riku to his lowest point (and maybe Maleficent should also have been there like someone else mentioned, but she was basically manipulated by Ansem anyway), Mickey showed Riku that he can be saved and deserved a chance to be redeemed, and Namine shared that path with Riku towards redemption as they both were seeking to fix what wrongs they committed (also Riku's connection to her through the Riku Replica).

Aside from that, it would be SO boring to see Sora on EVERYONE's station (which he probably would be). Going back to my other point, I think creatively it's better to show that characters have influences outside of Sora on their station. It's obvious that Sora is in Riku's heart and very (if not the most) important to him. We don't need a picture on the station of awakening to solidify that fact. It's way more effective, in my eyes, to show/remind players of the characters that helped make Riku who he is in KH3 and a tool was the station of awakening with Ansem/Mickey/Namine there. I think it was more powerful imagery to show Ansem/Mickey/Namine there, than the obvious Sora/Kairi/Mickey which is what you probably would have put.
This is a very interesting discussion despite that Nomura basically copied pasta stations made for anniversary merch based on the specific game it adheres to instead of giving actual, original stations to the characters. Which was dumb and some people being there over others makes no sense.

So what exactly is Riku's reason for being in Roxas' heart station? He had absolutely no influence on him, no change on him, other than knocking him out and giving him to Diz.
I know it's a typo, but LOL! It makes me think about pasta being served on plates that have the station of awakening designs.

Anyway, Riku being in Roxas' heart... well I kinda feel like that fight between Riku/Roxas was a pivotal moment for Roxas. He was on the verge of "freedom" and fulfilling Xion's request to stop Xemnas from creating Kingdom Hearts, but the person that stopped him and basically "ruined his life" was Riku. Which is why I think it's the post KHCoM design that's there - Roxas holds a certain anger towards Riku and I think the station shows it. Again, it would have been pointless to have Sora there because WE ALREADY KNOW Roxas' connection to Sora.
 

*TwilightNight*

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you mean after he "sided with the heartless", throws her in the brig, then kidnaps her and brings her to hollow bastion to use her heart? He's clearly using Kairi to provoke Sora here, idk how you're using that as an indicator that he cares about her.

...


6:54 onwards.

Maleficent manipulated him by making him believe that Sora found new friends in Donald and Goofy, and had replaced him. She also states that the only way to find what he's searching for (Kairi) is to ally himself with her. That's why he's acting out in Neverland and throwing it in Sora's face how he abandoned them and that he's basically doing all the work in being concerned for Kairi. Kairi herself was okay, she wasn't a prisoner, just kept there from the rest, and neither was she kidnapped. Riku thought he was protecting her.

Let alone the final thing he says to Sora as they are separated by the door - "Take care of her."

I know it's a typo, but LOL! It makes me think about pasta being served on plates that have the station of awakening designs.

Anyway, Riku being in Roxas' heart... well I kinda feel like that fight between Riku/Roxas was a pivotal moment for Roxas. He was on the verge of "freedom" and fulfilling Xion's request to stop Xemnas from creating Kingdom Hearts, but the person that stopped him and basically "ruined his life" was Riku. Which is why I think it's the post KHCoM design that's there - Roxas holds a certain anger towards Riku and I think the station shows it. Again, it would have been pointless to have Sora there because WE ALREADY KNOW Roxas' connection to Sora.

The entirety of Roxas' heart station is based on the 358/2 Days box art. Including Riku's.

I don't know what anger you're talking about, because like the rushed mess KH3 was, Roxas and Riku were running around in the beach, all cool with each other. By technicalities, in terms of greater influence, connection, and change, Naminé should be there instead of him. Just like Sora (at the least) should be in Riku's heart station.

It doesn't make sense. We're all trying to give in canon reasons to Nomura's laziness, but really, these stations should have blatantly been reworked. None of them are even "sleeping".
 
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Elysium

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I'm not going to really discuss that more because it's obvious Riku's role in KH1, let alone what Sora means to him. I can't believe I'm even arguing over Ansem/Mickey/Namine having influence on Riku's journey and being in his station of awakening. Do I think Sora should be there? Sure! I don't think it's necessary. I also do not think it's wrong that Sora isn't there. To me, Riku's station of awakening showed characters that MADE HIM into who he is at that time in KH3, a person that is redeemed and is able to discard the guilt he previously felt to meet Sora. If Riku never left Destiny Islands and never experienced what he did with those people featured in his station of awakening, he would NOT be anywhere near the person we know in KH3. He would probably still be the arrogant kid we saw in KH1. Sora alone isn't going to change Riku. Riku needed other influences to help him, those influences are seen in his station of awakening. Yes, he worked on himself for Sora, I do not deny that.
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but this is just false. Everything Riku does to redeem himself is because of Sora. Sora didn't have to say or do anything to be the motivator for Riku. At the end of CoM, when Riku decides to protect Sora while he recovers--are we supposed to assume he does this through Namine's influence simply because he spoke the dialogue *about Sora* to her rather than Sora's unconscious body? Even if Sora had been awake, Riku would've never said these things to him. In KH2, he's embarrassed to be around Sora out of guilt and instead helps him from the margins. The characters that influence him inspired emotions in him. Sora--jealousy, later guilt. Mickey--hope. Maleficent and Ansem SOD--fostered his desire for power, escape from the Islands, importance. Namine and DiZ were just a co-worker and employer in his effort to help Sora. They didn't inspire him to do anything.

And I don't think the two of them had much connection to Riku on their side either. Namine was inspired to help Sora because of Sora, DiZ to help Sora out of desire for revenge on Xehanort. If anything, I'd say Riku impacted DiZ more than Namine or DiZ ever impacted him, because Riku changing his form and giving into darkness for Sora's sake inspired DiZ's guilt.

In other words, it isn't because Kairi herself "inspired him to think and act about the outside world" it's because he learned about the existence of other worlds as a result of her being there. Anyone from the outside world could have played this role for Riku it just happens to be Kairi, so I don't think it's fair to say Kairi (as a character) influenced Riku more than Ansem or Mickey.
I do agree with this though. Riku doesn't care about Kairi so much as what her mysterious appearance on Destiny Islands represents--the existence of outside worlds. I don't think Kairi had much impact on him; she didn't seem like anymore than a chess piece to fight with Sora over.
 
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OneDandelion

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...


6:54 onwards.

Maleficent manipulated him by making him believe that Sora found new friends in Donald and Goofy, and had replaced him. She also states that the only way to find what he's searching for (Kairi) is to ally himself with her. That's why he's acting out in Neverland and throwing it in Sora's face how he abandoned them and that he's basically doing all the work in being concerned for Kairi. Kairi herself was okay, she wasn't a prisoner, just kept there from the rest, and neither was she kidnapped. Riku thought he was protecting her.

Let alone the final thing he says to Sora as they are separated by the door - "Take care of her."

I shouldn't have said "Riku never looked for Kairi" during KH1, that was an exaggeration on my part. I have already said that they were friends in multiple posts so of course Riku cared about Kairi and of course he "looked" for her during KH1. Okay? I should have said "Riku cared less about Sora and Kairi than he did about power and the knowledge of other worlds".

It is literally only after Sora defeats Riku in Hollow Bastion that Riku stops putting his quest for power above Sora and Kairi. This is not an exaggeration.

So we clearly have very different interpretations of Riku's character in KH1.

-Riku is the one that coerces Sora and Kairi to leave the islands because he isn't satisfied with being there with them.

-Riku finds Sora soon after arriving in Traverse Town but decides to join Maleficent instead. Imo this was not because Sora met donald and goofy, it's because he had the keyblade and Riku felt like his power/progress was lacking and he was jealous. If Riku put saving Kairi before his desire for power he would not have joined up with maleficent at this point. The idea that Riku felt Sora replaced him as a childhood friend is utterly ridiculous despite Maleficent trying to manipulate Riku this way.

-Riku consistently takes dark power from maleficent despite knowing that it could take over his heart. Riku also continuously mocks Sora and his keyblade throughout the game until he finally takes it from him in Hollow Bastion. All of which directly conflicts with the role he played in Destiny islands as Sora's superior/protector/leader. All indicators of his insecurities in now being inferior to Sora.

-After Sora takes the keyblade back from him and the hooded figure tells him Sora's heart was stronger than his he finally loses it and gives in to Ansem. His heart is taken over by darkness. This obviously signifies that for this moment Riku had abandoned his friends totally in his desire for power. He lets the darkness take over his heart despite Kairi being in a coma.

So you can argue that Riku was "looking for Kairi" throughout Kingdom Hearts 1 and I will say that Riku never put Kairi's or Sora's interests ahead of his own. He acted like a friend insofar as he felt obligated to until Kairi got in the way of his real goal of obtaining power. So sure, he looked for her while it was convenient for him, but he also threw his friendship with Sora and Kairi away at his lowest point because at the end of the day he valued power over them until Sora ends up showing him that simply giving in to darkness would not make him strong. And yes, by the very end of the game, Riku somewhat identifies his flaws and the value of his friendship with Sora and Kairi.
 

Elysium

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So true, especially when they brought up Deku and Kaachan. It's like you're presented with two characters practically obsessing over one another, but then the creators blameshift it onto the fans for having taken it "that way."

Although MHA is different from KH for me in the sense that I really like Ochako; I like almost all the characters in MHA though. Her fight with Bakugou in the class tournament was as much a highlight as all the tension between Deku-Bakugou-Todoroki was.
 

SweetYetSalty

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I just thought of something. Isn't Namine's body like half Riku now? That Replica body was originally housed by Dark Riku, so like if Riku and Namine ever hooked up wouldn't it be like Riku dating half himself now? Re:Connect Kingdom Hearts!
 

Oracle Spockanort

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So true, especially when they brought up Deku and Kaachan. It's like you're presented with two characters practically obsessing over one another, but then the creators blameshift it onto the fans for having taken it "that way."

Although MHA is different from KH for me in the sense that I really like Ochako; I like almost all the characters in MHA though. Her fight with Bakugou in the class tournament was as much a highlight as all the tension between Deku-Bakugou-Todoroki was.

Ochako is definitely great. I don’t think I’ll be happy with her being with Deku in the end, though. There is nothing compelling there to me and it is a more boring aspect of her character. Beyond that, she’s handled really, really well as a character.
 

Face My Fears

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I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but this is just false. Everything Riku does to redeem himself is because of Sora. Sora didn't have to say or do anything to be the motivator for Riku. At the end of CoM, when Riku decides to protect Sora while he recovers--are we supposed to assume he does this through Namine's influence simply because he spoke the dialogue *about Sora* to her rather than Sora's unconscious body? Even if Sora had been awake, Riku would've never said these things to him. In KH2, he's embarrassed to be around Sora out of guilt and instead helps him from the margins. The characters that influence him inspired emotions in him. Sora--jealousy, later guilt. Mickey--hope. Maleficent and Ansem SOD--fostered his desire for power, escape from the Islands, importance. Namine and DiZ were just a co-worker and employer in his effort to help Sora. They didn't inspire him to do anything.

And I don't think the two of them had much connection to Riku on their side either. Namine was inspired to help Sora because of Sora, DiZ to help Sora out of desire for revenge on Xehanort. If anything, I'd say Riku impacted DiZ more than Namine or DiZ ever impacted him, because Riku changing his form and giving into darkness for Sora's sake inspired DiZ's guilt.


I do agree with this though. Riku doesn't care about Kairi so much as what her mysterious appearance on Destiny Islands represents--the existence of outside worlds. I don't think Kairi had much impact on him; she didn't seem like anymore than a chess piece to fight with Sora over.
Sora was the motivation for Riku to change, but Ansem/Mickey/Namine's presence during CoM/KH2 guided him towards that change. I think that Riku/Namine's relationship was built upon them both wanting to redeem themselves, especially in Sora's eyes, so I think that made them closer.

I think that this is getting way off topic, so I'm just going to say that I like the 3 that are on Riku's canon station. Sora should be there, but I don't think he needs to be there.
The entirety of Roxas' heart station is based on the 358/2 Days box art. Including Riku's.

I don't know what anger you're talking about, because like the rushed mess KH3 was, Roxas and Riku were running around in the beach, all cool with each other. By technicalities, in terms of greater influence, connection, and change, Naminé should be there instead of him. Just like Sora (at the least) should be in Riku's heart station.

It doesn't make sense. We're all trying to give in canon reasons to Nomura's laziness, but really, these stations should have blatantly been reworked. None of them are even "sleeping".
Just because KH3 didn't address it, doesn't mean that Roxas didn't feel a certain way about Riku. He openly declared his hatred to DiZ for speaking in riddles, you don't think he would genuinely hate the person that stopped him from being free and fulfilling Xion's last wish? Namine should be there or not... I don't see a major issue with Riku being there.

I don't think it's fair to lash out about the stations needing to be "reworked", let alone calling Nomura lazy. Sora's used the same station since KH1, should that have been "reworked" to include the Final Fantasy characters, Mickey, Namine, Roxas, Xion, Ven... like how many people do you really think should be on the station? Riku and Roxas' own had the necessary characters respectively. Their own would be way more jarring if Ansem/Mickey were missing (for Riku) and Xion/Axel were missing (for Roxas) over Sora missing.
 

Absent

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They ARE lazy because Aqua has Master Xehanort and Vanitas over Eraqus. They ARE lazy because Mickey's has Terra in it, despite never meeting him. They ARE lazy because some of them have three and some of them have 4 like Xion and Aqua when they don't need them.
The only ones that make sense are the ones that are themed around a game, which seems to be case for Riku's. His Station seems to represent Chain of Memories because the Sora Station opposite to his CoM art uses Namine too. How am I supposed to believe this came from the same series that felt the need to explain Mickey's vanishing shirt? They could bother to do that but not put a little effort to modify his Station from an event? I mean there was also the watermark fiasco in Frozen so I shouldn't be surprised.
 

Face My Fears

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They ARE lazy because Aqua has Master Xehanort and Vanitas over Eraqus. They ARE lazy because Mickey's has Terra in it, despite never meeting him. They ARE lazy because some of them have three and some of them have 4 like Xion and Aqua when they don't need them.
The only ones that make sense are the ones that are themed around a game, which seems to be case for Riku's. His Station seems to represent Chain of Memories because the Sora Station opposite to his CoM art uses Namine too. How am I supposed to believe this came from the same series that felt the need to explain Mickey's vanishing shirt? They could bother to do that but not put a little effort to modify his Station from an event? I mean there was also the watermark fiasco in Frozen so I shouldn't be surprised.
So do you need Nomura to come out and say that he WANTED Ansem/Mickey/Namine ONLY to be on Riku's own for you to think it's not lazy? Or for Nomura to say that he didn't want Eraqus on Aqua's own? How is the number of people on the station a sign of laziness? Where was this fit of rage over "laziness" when Sora's station has been the same since KH1?

All of the designs are amazing to me. I don't think Nomura ever came out and explicitly stated that the characters on the station had to be people that the character liked.

Nomura DID modify Riku's station. He got rid of the card designs around the border and removed the cards in Riku's hand. I'm sure if Nomura saw it fit to change anything else (like adding another face to the station), he would have. Like you stated, Nomura is the man who explained Mickey's shirt vanishing. He is definitely the type of person who would adjust the faces on the station. I would have agreed that it was lazy if he copy and pasted the CoM design without changing a thing, but he didn't.

I get that you wanted to use this as a soapbox to vent about your opinion of KH3 being "rushed"/"lazy", but I don't think that Nomura was lazy in this situation. Because if you think it's lazy, then call Nomura out on Sora's station NEVER changing.
 

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So do you need Nomura to come out and say that he WANTED Ansem/Mickey/Namine ONLY to be on Riku's own for you to think it's not lazy? Or for Nomura to say that he didn't want Eraqus on Aqua's own? How is the number of people on the station a sign of laziness? Where was this fit of rage over "laziness" when Sora's station has been the same since KH1?

All of the designs are amazing to me. I don't think Nomura ever came out and explicitly stated that the characters on the station had to be people that the character liked.

Nomura DID modify Riku's station. He got rid of the card designs around the border and removed the cards in Riku's hand. I'm sure if Nomura saw it fit to change anything else (like adding another face to the station), he would have. Like you stated, Nomura is the man who explained Mickey's shirt vanishing. He is definitely the type of person who would adjust the faces on the station. I would have agreed that it was lazy if he copy and pasted the CoM design without changing a thing, but he didn't.

I get that you wanted to use this as a soapbox to vent about your opinion of KH3 being "rushed"/"lazy", but I don't think that Nomura was lazy in this situation. Because if you think it's lazy, then call Nomura out on Sora's station NEVER changing.

It's very unlikely Nomura even touched these stained glass artworks.
 

Absent

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I get that you wanted to use this as a soapbox to vent about your opinion of KH3 being "rushed"/"lazy", but I don't think that Nomura was lazy in this situation. Because if you think it's lazy, then call Nomura out on Sora's station NEVER changing.

I can do both, I am versatile.
 
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The way that I see it is Riku didn't really value Sora or Kairi as much as he did AFTER the events of KH1. I think he had to fall in KH1 to learn what he was losing. If he cared so much about Sora at the very beginning of KH1, I don't think he would have given in to Ansem's manipulation or at least told Sora what was going on.

I'm not saying that Riku doesn't care about Sora/Kairi. He cares about them a lot in KH1. I just think that KH1's narrative for Riku was a boy desperate to escape his island prison and see what's out there - at any cost necessary. This becomes Riku's driving force over Sora/Kairi. He is blinded by his desire to see the worlds out there, but also by the power or - to reduce it to the roles on Destiny Islands - "leader" position. Riku can't stand Sora having the keyblade, let alone journeying to worlds on his own.

I'm not going to really discuss that more because it's obvious Riku's role in KH1, let alone what Sora means to him. I can't believe I'm even arguing over Ansem/Mickey/Namine having influence on Riku's journey and being in his station of awakening. Do I think Sora should be there? Sure! I don't think it's necessary. I also do not think it's wrong that Sora isn't there. To me, Riku's station of awakening showed characters that MADE HIM into who he is at that time in KH3, a person that is redeemed and is able to discard the guilt he previously felt to meet Sora. If Riku never left Destiny Islands and never experienced what he did with those people featured in his station of awakening, he would NOT be anywhere near the person we know in KH3. He would probably still be the arrogant kid we saw in KH1. Sora alone isn't going to change Riku. Riku needed other influences to help him, those influences are seen in his station of awakening. Yes, he worked on himself for Sora, I do not deny that.

Thanks for putting my knowledge of KH on trial.

I wonder if stations of awakening can change. In kh3 we finally see a function of the people on the portraits: via the PoW, one can remotely enter another's heart (sora in scala to riku in KG)

So.... what if one of those people die and stay dead? It's not like anyone will bother time-traveling Ansem-SoD to the present again. He couldn't have gone to the FW since MX was recompleted. Hell, MX himself should be dead for good too.

So either Ansem-SoD and Xehanort fade from Riku's and Aqua's respective SoA's or they remain there as sentimental clutter.
 
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