Riku's Keyblade - Where from, really?

[Smile]

As is always the case with my terms of hermithood, I bring in a theory that possibly was raised before.
I do not care for that. Suffer.

And please - no Coded/Re:Coded spoilers and 3D info without it being properly marked. :v let's keep this on topic.

So. Up to today we've all known that Riku was the chosen one of the Keyblade and that Sora, going by Nomura's earlier scenarios, reached into Riku's very Heart and pulled the KK from there.
This had some light shed on it as early on as the FM+ and Another Report where Nomura basically said without actually saying it that Terra chose Riku to be a Keyblade Wielder (The Lingering Sentiment acting as Terra proxy telling Sora he did not choose Sora for the Keyblade + Nomura saying the FM+ had a scene talking about Riku being a chosen Wielder + the KK originating from Riku = logical conclusion...).

Of course, if Riku was chosen by Terra, he'd have had a Keyblade inside his Heart only waiting for him to become worthy of it. Only then, Sora intervened, snatching the KK and eventually being chosen by it.
As the KK was originally Riku's, we'd get the Tug-O-War that we did in KH1 until the Keyblade decided Terra's decision wasn't such a good one and went with Sora instead.

BBS shed some more light on this matter. For instance, how could Sora who was not chosen by anyone, Wield to begin with? Well, having Ven's Heart inside his Body could've helped - utilizing Ven's Wielding abilities, he kept using the KK until he was chosen by it, thus becoming a proper Wielder himself. Riku lost the Keyblade, but eventually became worthy of the WttD on his own.

This raises several interesting questions, however.

1. Where did the WttD come from? Is it possible for everyone to be chosen by several Keyblades assuming they for some reason lost their previous ones, and if not, what makes Riku so special?
2. Where did the Kingdom Key come from? We know that Aqua sensed Riku was chosen by Terra, but did it mean he already had the KK in his Heart by then and was only not worthy? And does this mean Kairi has one too, but it's just dormant?
   
   Here's an interesting twist on stuff that hopefully, not too many people thought of.
   There is, in fact, another Keyblade in play here that depending on the truth behind the matter, might explain where the KK came from while leaving Riku "available" to be picked by the WttD and Kairi Keybladeless so as to explain why in BBS, only Riku and Sora were mentioned as the children to save the universe.

Yes yes, you're looking at another Smile wildcard theory (for those of you who even remember me orz).

I'm talking about Vanitas's Keyblade.

Let's face it, there has to be something there.

• The battle stance Re:CoM showed us Riku shared with Vanitas already from when he was an infant (seeing as how Namine'd have no reason to change Riku's fighting stance in Sora's Memories). And Roxas and Xion showed us just what the fighting stances mean.
• The Dark suit - sure it can come from Darkness but Xehanort's Heartless wore the same thing that Master Xehanort did. On somewhat lower scales, Roxas, Sora and Ven all wear variations of each other's clothes, and even KH2 Kairi got a dress with some white in it to match Namine, indicating that character design reflects relations. So now you want me to shrug off Riku and Vanitas wearing the same Darkness suit as a coincidence? Puh-lease.
• The KK itself. Sora got the KK Keychain from having Ven's Heart inside him. Now, one possibility would be that Riku just "used" that Keychain, possibly based on his Memories of Sora. But... if for Sora the KK came from Ven relations and it already looks like Riku and Vanitas have some unexplored relations... who's to say the KK Keychain didn't come from Vanitas as well?

Well, why not say the Keyblade itself came from Vanitas, too?
This is where the 'wildcard' part of this theory comes into play. And by that I mean, naturally, exactly how Vanitas and Riku are related to each other. For the time being I don't really care about that, mostly because I don't have enough info to go on.
But let's see why such an existential bond makes sense to give Riku the Keyblade.

To begin with, the Tug-O-War suddenly makes a lot more sense. If the KK came from Vanitas who's related to Ven who's inside Sora, suddenly Sora reaching into Riku's Heart to snatch the Keyblade from there becomes a lot less Deus Ex Machina and a lot more plot-established since they're both related to one another on a deep enough level through Ven and Vanitas.

The Keychain itself also makes sense since both Sora and Riku'd use the X-Blade as basis, Sora through Ven and Riku through Vanitas.

And of course, the entire "where did Riku get the KK to begin with for Sora to take". We pretty much know that Ven's Keyblade was dormant until Roxas absorbed Xion and woke it up. That means that Sora as well already had a Keyblade inside him - it just wasn't his own. Riku'd be in a similar situation until Sora, utilizing the Ven-Vanitas relation, pulled it out.
That leaves Riku as a Keybladeless Wielder, one who can be chosen by the WttD in the second half of KH2.

Also, if by some way Vanitas pulled off with Riku something similar to what Ven and Sora did, that would explain why later, when Sora feels Ven's pain, Riku knows what to tell him to do - he might've done the same with Vanitas or had Vanitas guide him to do that.
After all, kid-Riku was such an adorable, caring, Light-filled kid...

Another fun thing to take into consideration:

The Keyblade is not his to bear

I wonder exactly how much he was lying when he told Terra this. He'd have, basically, no reason to lie seeing how he already went as far as to tell Terra the truth about what Vanitas is (though of course not how he was created...). Implying in some way that Vanitas was more of a fake or worse, taking something from Ven will no doubt get Terra even more determined to go after Vanitas.
Well... what if it really wasn't his, but... ya know, not quite Ven's, either? I know timeline wise this specific part might not add up, but... what if the looks weren't the only thing he got from Sora? What if he was, in fact, using Sora's Heart to Wield another Keyblade? I know Sora and Roxas shared a Keyblade and that was how, using Ven's Keyblade, Roxas managed to Duel Wield, but... what if this wasn't the case here? What if Vanitas couldn't tap into Ven's Wielding? Or another possibility - what if he could, but that depended on Ven's own state of Heart. Which meant that he couldn't use the Keyblade until he merged his Heart with Sora's - in which case Vanitas'd have access to Sora's own Heart to use the Keyblade through.
Then, seeing how in a way this was Sora's own Keyblade to begin with - we get the entire messy Tug-O-War in KH1 between Sora and Riku that resulted in Sora being chosen by the Keyblade.

ThisalsoexplainsXion'sblackhairthroughherownRikurelations

Yeah iono. I sat with Theater Mode and the Xehanort Reports right now. Go ahead - rip this apart xD; I had my fun.

 

[Nayru's Love]

Well, having Ven's Heart inside his Body could've helped - utilizing Ven's Wielding abilities, he kept using the KK until he was chosen by it, thus becoming a proper Wielder himself. Riku lost the Keyblade, but eventually became worthy of the WttD on his own.

The only perk that Sora gained from Ven was the dual-wielding one. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been just a normal boy.

Where did the WttD come from? Is it possible for everyone to be chosen by several Keyblades assuming they for some reason lost their previous ones, and if not, what makes Riku so special?

If my Nomura quotes serve me right, WttD was created from Soul Eater.

And of course, the entire "where did Riku get the KK to begin with for Sora to take". We pretty much know that Ven's Keyblade was dormant until Roxas absorbed Xion and waked it up.

Ven's keyblade was activated by Roxas' will not to forget Xion.

Kinda in a hurry, I'll dissect this more later.

 

[Smile]

The only perk that Sora gained from Ven was the dual-wielding one.

And yet he Wielded the KK despite never being chosen and had the KK move to him to begin with. I think that WITHOUT this theory, he stops being a normal boy.
I know Nomura said Sora's a proper Wielder but he was chosen by the KK so we're all good. The question is - how did he manage until Hollow Bastion.

If my Nomura quotes serve me right, WttD was created from Soul Eater.

I am well aware of that. And I believe that the Soul Eater itself was utilizing Riku's abilities as a Wielder. We still get another Keyblade seemingly from nowhere though.
And you'll note that those are the questions I raised to NOT really answer, as I suggested a different explanation altogether.

Ven's keyblade was activated by Roxas' will not to forget Xion.

Ok, and?

Kinda in a hurry, I'll dissect this more later.

Please have it be more relevant then.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

-comes back to thread-

As is always the case with my terms of hermithood, I bring in a theory that possibly was raised before.
I do not care for that. Suffer.

-suffering-

And please - no Coded/Re:Coded spoilers and 3D info without it being properly marked. :v let's keep this on topic.

You know me. That will be hard. Good thing I have no idea what recoded and 3D is about.

I'm talking about Vanitas's Keyblade.

Oh lordy lord~

The battle stance Re:CoM showed us Riku shared with Vanitas already from when he was an infant (seeing as how Namine'd have no reason to change Riku's fighting stance in Sora's Memories). And Roxas and Xion showed us just what the fighting stances mean.

This is true. But I have also believed the connection to be made to show the relationship between Riku and Xehanort. Since Vanitas was under MX's "tutelage", it would seem as if he taught Vanitas those stances.

The Dark suit - sure it can come from Darkness but Xehanort's Heartless wore the same thing that Master Xehanort did. On somewhat lower scales, Roxas, Sora and Ven all wear variations of each other's clothes, and even KH2 Kairi got a dress with some white in it to match Namine, indicating that character design reflects relations. So now you want me to shrug off Riku and Vanitas wearing the same Darkness suit as a coincidence? Puh-lease.

No, don't shrug it off. Rather, see it as another connection between Riku and Xehanort. Xehanort, in a sense, created Vanitas. I would imagine he even created the suit. It comes off to me as something that he'd have his apprentices wear.

The KK itself. Sora got the KK Keychain from having Ven's Heart inside him. Now, one possibility would be that Riku just "used" that Keychain, possibly based on his Memories of Sora. But... if for Sora the KK came from Ven relations and it already looks like Riku and Vanitas have some unexplored relations... who's to say the KK Keychain didn't come from Vanitas as well?

Easily it couldn't have. The Keyblade is a Light Realm weapon. Vanitas is pure Darkness.

And now I have to go. I'll finish responding later.

 

[Smile]

This is true. But I have also believed the connection to be made to show the relationship between Riku and Xehanort. Since Vanitas was under MX's "tutelage", it would seem as if he taught Vanitas those stances.

Granted, but their stances are far too similar. And with the Darkness outfit it's two dots turning it from a coincidence to a pattern.
Who'd have taught Riku the stance? Xehanort? Highly unlikely.

No, don't shrug it off. Rather, see it as another connection between Riku and Xehanort. Xehanort, in a sense, created Vanitas. I would imagine he even created the suit. It comes off to me as something that he'd have his apprentices wear.

Then I have to wonder about Riku and XH's interaction (Re:Coded turf from what I heard but still, without it - we know little). Riku had the Darkness suit before XH went inside him, so unless they established a link prior, this falls on Vanitas's shoulders.
Then we have the fighting stance showing a pre-established link from when Riku was a toddler and the Vanitas-Riku relation gets my vote rather than the Xehanort-Riku one.

Easily it couldn't have. The Keyblade is a Light Realm weapon. Vanitas is pure Darkness.

That's not what I meant. Vanitas already had a Keyblade in BBS. So the KK that Sora snatched from Riku was, in fact, Vanitas's Keyblade. D: Vanitas, despite being a being of Pure Darkness, originated from the Realm of Light. He came from Ven and then had strong existential ties to Sora. Seeing how I'm pointing Sora out here to be the true source of the Keyblade, no problem here~

And now I have to go. I'll finish responding later.

:C oh, poo.

 

[Relix]

And please - no Coded/Re:Coded spoilers and 3D info without it being properly marked. :v let's keep this on topic.

Trying not to spoil too much myself.

Of course, if Riku was chosen by Terra, he'd have had a Keyblade inside his Heart only waiting for him to become worthy of it. Only then, Sora intervened, snatching the KK and eventually being chosen by it.
As the KK was originally Riku's, we'd get the Tug-O-War that we did in KH1 until the Keyblade decided Terra's decision wasn't such a good one and went with Sora instead.

Well this is how I always saw it: Riku is entitled to a keyblade no matter what because of the rite that Terra performed on him. The keyblade that Riku was supposed to have was ripped away from him by Sora, but this didn't strip him of his ability to wield a keyblade (him being able to hold Roxas's Oblivion and Xion's KK). What I'm trying to say is even though Sora took KK, Riku is still entitled to a keyblade of his own. What Sora did was not done before, even Nomura said that Sora's case is an exception since the keyblade chose him, making the keyblade under Sora's name as if the keyblade itself did the rite, making it so that technically Riku's keyblade has yet to come. Hence the reason why he can et WttD.

Where did the WttD come from? Is it possible for everyone to be chosen by several Keyblades assuming they for some reason lost their previous ones, and if not, what makes Riku so special?

This is kinda what I was saying above, but instead of Riku getting numerous keyblades it's as if he never got his in the first place. Basically the KK overrides itself in being Riku's keyblade so Riku would wait longer. It's like Riku was standing in line waiting for KK and Sora not only hoped in line but cut him, forcing Riku to get another keyblade. I'm just emphasizing that this whole situation is one huge exception because Sora made it that the keyblade chose him without a rite being performed.

Where did the Kingdom Key come from? We know that Aqua sensed Riku was chosen by Terra, but did it mean he already had the KK in his Heart by then and was only not worthy? And does this mean Kairi has one too, but it's just dormant?

I think after the rite was performed a "keyblade" was within Riku so Aqua could see it but it's shape wasn't defined (whether it would have been KK or anything else) same goes for Kairi. But there was never anyone around to sense it in her like Aqua did for Riku.

I'm talking about Vanitas's Keyblade.

I don't see when Vanitas would have migrated into Riku. I know there is something there but for Riku to have access to his keyblade, he'd have to harbor Vanitas, and there's already the assumption that Riku is holding a part of terra inside him or something. adding vanitas to the mix would be incredibly crowded but I see where you are coming from.

Let's face it, there has to be something there.
The battle stance Re:CoM showed us Riku shared with Vanitas already from when he was an infant (seeing as how Namine'd have no reason to change Riku's fighting stance in Sora's Memories). And Roxas and Xion showed us just what the fighting stances mean.

Xehanort has a similar fighting stance when Terra fights him in the Keyblade Graveyard. I don't know what that means for Riku, Vanitas, and Xehanort but the common factor seems to be Xehanort.

The Dark suit - sure it can come from Darkness but Xehanort's Heartless wore the same thing that Master Xehanort did. On somewhat lower scales, Roxas, Sora and Ven all wear variations of each other's clothes, and even KH2 Kairi got a dress with some white in it to match Namine, indicating that character design reflects relations. So now you want me to shrug off Riku and Vanitas wearing the same Darkness suit as a coincidence? Puh-lease.

This stumps me too. At first I thought there was a connection, then I thought it was a way for Nomura to sike people out on Vanitas' identity, and then I thought it had to do when a heart was being engulfed in Darkness (or in Vanitas case just darkness). Riku has yet to use the Dark suit recently and when he did in CoM it was because of his "tempered Darkness" further implying the suit is linked to Darkness which Vanitas is pure being of.

The KK itself. Sora got the KK Keychain from having Ven's Heart inside him. Now, one possibility would be that Riku just "used" that Keychain, possibly based on his Memories of Sora. But... if for Sora the KK came from Ven relations and it already looks like Riku and Vanitas have some unexplored relations... who's to say the KK Keychain didn't come from Vanitas as well?[/list]

Vanitas influence on the keyblade would reflect KK?

Well, why not say the Keyblade itself came from Vanitas, too?

Cuz then Riku would have to be harboring Vanitas, and Sora harbored Ven in the most unorthodox of ways that even Nomura and DiZ called "special", Riku doing it would downplay this imo. And would kinda take the originality out of Riku imo anyways. saying that Riku didn't influence it but Vanitas did.

To begin with, the Tug-O-War suddenly makes a lot more sense. If the KK came from Vanitas who's related to Ven who's inside Sora, suddenly Sora reaching into Riku's Heart to snatch the Keyblade from there becomes a lot less Deus Ex Machina and a lot more plot-established since they're both related to one another on a deep enough level through Ven and Vanitas.

The Tug-O-War as is makes perfect sense because it is the Keyblade Riku was entitled to. He was given the Rite of Succession, "passed down the power". He rightfully should have held the keyblade but the keyblade itself was resisting and Sora was pulling at it too. The only influence Ven has on Sora is dual-wielding. the KK is Sora's own doing. Two opposing natural forces were at work already, Riku's official rite and Sora's heart, eventually the keyblade decided to choose Sora, which is a major exception.

And of course, the entire "where did Riku get the KK to begin with for Sora to take". We pretty much know that Ven's Keyblade was dormant until Roxas absorbed Xion and waked it up. That means that Sora as well already had a Keyblade inside him - it just wasn't his own. Riku'd be in a similar situation until Sora, utilizing the Ven-Vanitas relation, pulled it out.

Ven helping Sora strip KK from Riku is a major "Ven" influence when it's been confirmed that the only "ven" influence is the second keyblade. It all goes back to Sora being the "exception to everything" ordeal. The heart that can connect to others, the one who had a keyblade choose him instead of a keyblade master, etc.

That leaves Riku as a Keybladeless Wielder, one who can be chosen by the WttD in the second half of KH2.

which would still make sense if Sora just swiped Riku's keyblade on his own accord and Riku being forced to wait for another one as if KK wasn't his in the first place.

I actually like your theory it's just that the imfamous Tug-o-War makes Sora more of an exception rather than Havin Ven reclaim what was his sort of speak, seeing how he'd be reaching for a keyblade belonging to Vanitas when Vanitas in a sense comes from him. I could also be biased cuz I hate the thought of Vanitas returning through Riku, or effecting Riku's growth, flaws, darkness in anyway.

 

[Smile]

Riku is entitled to a keyblade no matter what because of the rite that Terra performed on him. The keyblade that Riku was supposed to have was ripped away from him by Sora

The first part itself is kind of debatable since we know the Rite of Succession makes you into a Wielder but it never really explained when the Keyblade itself comes into play. Like I said, with how Nomura treats Kairi so far it seems more logical for me that the Keyblade choosing a Wielder is detached from being a Wielder. Like, just because Kairi and Riku had Aqua and Terra perform, intentionally or not, the Rite of Succession ritual with them, doesn't mean they'll end up with Keyblades, just that they're likelier to get ones and can use other people's Keyblade as is the case with Riku and in KH2, Kairi.
It's also somewhat easier for me to accept that the KK wasn't Riku's intended Keyblade since it keeps things simpler with him getting another Keyblade later on.

I'm just emphasizing that this whole situation is one huge exception because Sora made it that the keyblade chose him without a rite being performed.

Nothing about my theory makes Sora be less of an exception in that regards. He was still originally a non-Wielder that - I prefer to think thanks to Ven's Wielding - got a Keyblade to pick him as a rightful Master. That doesn't change as even if it was Vanitas's Keyblade, and even if it originated as Sora's Keyblade, Sora'd still have to be picked by it.
Riku having the KK and even Sora Wielding the KK didn't make the KK truly be either one's. And Sora getting the KK to pick him doesn't change.
It just makes him a tiny bit less exceptional in how he got the KK to begin with, which doesn't make him less exceptional so much as less of a Deus Ex Machina. With all due respect to JesuSora, it's one thing having everyone and their mother believe you'll save them; it's another pulling such plot shenanigans.

I think after the rite was performed a "keyblade" was within Riku so Aqua could see it but it's shape wasn't defined (whether it would have been KK or anything else) same goes for Kairi. But there was never anyone around to sense it in her like Aqua did for Riku.

And it's the uncertainy about this issue that I'm using in my favor here.
And this makes me wonder why Yen Sid, if he went as far as to accept Mickey as a Master at the end of BBS, didn't awaken the Keyblade that by this logic should've been inside Mickey. Instead, he gave him his very own StarSeeker which we now know was originally Yen Sid and Mickey, like Aqua at the end of BBS, took his Master's Keyblade.
If Sora was the only exception, that means that Mickey had the Rite performed on him. Meaning that instead of giving him the StarSeeker, Yen Sid could've trained Mickey better so he could awaken his own Keyblade. But this didn't happen until Mickey went to the Dark Realm to find the KK's Match.
So yeah. The more I think about it the less likely I think it is for Riku and Kairi to had Keyblades simply because Aqua and Terra Wielderfied them. Meaning, for there to already be a Keyblade inside unworthy Riku's Heart - it had to have came from somewhere else.

I don't see when Vanitas would have migrated into Riku. I know there is something there but for Riku to have access to his keyblade, he'd have to harbor Vanitas

Grass actually raised an interesting theory a while ago that's growing on me. When Terra threw Ven to DI, Vanitas was already there. What did he do, then? One likely conclusion is that he was checking up on Sora, the boy who gave him his face and that is connected to him. A somewhat less logical scenario is that he knew where Ven was going and teleported there in advance. Otherwise that they predicted Terra's movements to such a degree.
What Grass suggested was that not only Aqua sensed Terra Wielderfied Riku. Timeline wise, Ven's visit to DI was the latest, thus giving Vanitas enough time to visit Riku before Ven showed up.
Riku's Heart was filled with Light at the time of BBS. While I do believe Kairi showing up and Aqua making Sora promise her to protect Riku no doubt played a part in his descent into Darkness, Riku seemed like a bright, trusting, naive boy with just a bit more bravado than Sora. Vanitas showing up at that point in time, so convenient after Riku became a Wielder, might also explain Riku's descent into Darkness.
And I mean, Aqua would've been substitute for Ven. Whoever said MX didn't make sure there'd be substitutes for Vanitas, even if by keeping him alive?
The X-Blade being broken showed us that Ven and Vanitas's fusion wasn't complete. Even the reports state this clearly. So maybe once Ven smashed his own Heart, Vanitas went into a different Heart than Ven did.

but I see where you are coming from.

The situation itself is crowded enough as it is. And let's see, in worst case scenarios, counting EVERYONE
Riku - Xehanort, Eraqus, Terra, Vanitas
Sora - Roxas, Ven, Xion
Riku's had it worse since KH1 where Sora became his own lone Heart. Then Sora got not one person back, but THREE. But... eh. What's one more Heart that isn't even a Heart but a Sense of Self riding on a lot of Darkness?

I don't know what that means for Riku, Vanitas, and Xehanort but the common factor seems to be Xehanort.

Xehanort teaches Vanitas.
Vanitas fuses with Riku in some manner.
5 year old Riku who never met Xehanort fights just like Vanitas.
While Xehanort is the source, Vanitas would be how it got to Riku.

This stumps me too. At first I thought there was a connection, then I thought it was a way for Nomura to sike people out on Vanitas' identity, and then I thought it had to do when a heart was being engulfed in Darkness (or in Vanitas case just darkness). Riku has yet to use the Dark suit recently and when he did in CoM it was because of his "tempered Darkness" further implying the suit is linked to Darkness which Vanitas is pure being of.

Way I see it, it's just that post CoM, Riku's using his Darkness willingly and differently. Despite XH tampering with his Darkness, Riku did use his Darkness willingly starting from the Zexion fight thanks to Namine's encouragement. So rather than him being unable to do so, I'd sooner say that he chose not to do so, as part of his battle with the Darkness.
And of course at the end of KH2, Nomura only knows what stayed behind inside him and what got kicked out. So, more wildcards. Yey. Not.

Vanitas influence on the keyblade would reflect KK?

In the same way that Sora got the KK Keychain from Ven, Riku would from Vanitas. In a nutshell.

Cuz then Riku would have to be harboring Vanitas, and Sora harbored Ven in the most unorthodox of ways that even Nomura and DiZ called "special", Riku doing it would downplay this imo. And would kinda take the originality out of Riku imo anyways. saying that Riku didn't influence it but Vanitas did.

Oh yes, because having Terra say "c'mon, Ven, I thought you were stronger than this" leaves Riku as very original. BBS pretty much retconned Sora and to a lesser extent, Riku out of being their own people.
And to be precise Vanitas isn't quite like Ven. Ven's a broken Heart while Vanitas is Darkness. To me he's more like Namine, lacking too much to call his own. He was just stronger than her so Ven had to beat him up before they fused whereas just coming close to Kairi made Namine disappear.
And it's still gonna be special. It's just that for better or worse, those two special boys are our leading protagonists. So of course we're gonna see lots of special things like special Nobodies and Heartless and Replicas when those two are involved.
And way I see it, Nomura talks a lot about Sora but little about Riku. Instead, he leaves that to the games, like with Re:Coded showing suddenly Riku-only Memories in Sora's Journal that lo and behold, makes one recall Snarl of Memories.
So just because Nomura said that Sora was special, doesn't make Riku less so; it just makes Nomura smart for once with keeping his mouth shut.

The Tug-O-War as is makes perfect sense because it is the Keyblade Riku was entitled to. He was given the Rite of Succession, "passed down the power". He rightfully should have held the keyblade but the keyblade itself was resisting and Sora was pulling at it too.

And it's the whole "Sora, the regular, non-Wielder boy tugging on someone else's Keyblade long before the Keyblade chose him" that makes the entire thing not make sense to me. Reaching into someone's Heart? Wielding a Keyblade without being a Wielder and before being chosen by it? How does any of that make sense?
It's just that up to now, we didn't have an explanation. Well, now we just might've gotten it.

The only influence Ven has on Sora is dual-wielding. the KK is Sora's own doing. Two opposing natural forces were at work already, Riku's official rite and Sora's heart, eventually the keyblade decided to choose Sora, which is a major exception.

And again, that's only true in Hollow Bastion where the true fight took place. Up to then Riku seemed to have let Sora keep the Keyblade as though to taunt him and it's in Hollow Bastion that the KK did what Riku asked it to do and chose its rightful Master.
But again, I ask - if Sora was NOT chosen up to Hollow Bastion by the KK, and you say Ven had nothing to do with it - I'd love to hear an explanation. Because Sora being special doesn't cut it anymore, not when you have Ven in play.

Ven helping Sora strip KK from Riku is a major "Ven" influence when it's been confirmed that the only "ven" influence is the second keyblade.

I'd love the quote then because as far as I know, what was said is that Ven = Duel Wielding and that Sora's a proper Wielder because the KK chose him.
But I'll repeat this until my knuckles fall off - Sora was only properly chosen by the Keyblade in Hollow Bastion. The Tug-O-War shows as much that before it, it was still Riku's.
Without Ven helping Sora out until the Keyblade really chose him, this doesn't make that much sense to me. Especially with Sora's exceptionality stemming from him becoming a Wielder thanks to the Keyblade choosing him, not Wielding it prior to it. Something we now have a likely explanation for.

It all goes back to Sora being the "exception to everything" ordeal.

He's not an exception to everything. He didn't have the Rite of Succession ritual performed on him. That's about as far as it goes. You're free to bring quotes and prove me otherwise.

the imfamous Tug-o-War makes Sora more of an exception rather than Havin Ven reclaim what was his sort of speak, seeing how he'd be reaching for a keyblade belonging to Vanitas when Vanitas in a sense comes from him.

But Sora having Ven's Heart inside him and being chosen by the KK without being Wielderfied by anyone are already two insane exceptions, you admitted to as much yourself. Why throw in a Dues Ex Machina element being that Sora just did all these weird, magical things, when there're likely explanations?
Granted, this all rises and falls on if and how Riku and Vanitas are related, I'm well aware of that. But assume for a minute they are - and it all falls into place without Sora being God, but only Jesus.

I could also be biased cuz I hate the thought of Vanitas returning through Riku, or effecting Riku's growth, flaws, darkness in anyway.

I actually like your theory

I think it's the bias xD; thanks for at least keeping an open mind though.
Personally I'd like for characters to stay gone in KH too. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
I mean, at this point? Sora's a tanned Ven. And that's true on a plot level, not only personality wise :c

 

[rac7d]

i think being the weilder of light is a specila calling thatthe universer had picked riku but later changed there mind to sara
riku however was still a keyblade weilder and he summoned his keyblade as any other weilder would as soon as he cpuld

 

[Smile]

i think being the weilder of light is a specila calling thatthe universer had picked riku but later changed there mind to sara

The "universe" doesn't seem to play much of a role here as much as Terra picking Riku to be a Wielder and the KK itself picking Sora over Riku :v

riku however was still a keyblade weilder and he summoned his keyblade as any other weilder would as soon as he cpuld

I love how half the replies I got so far have nothing to do with the theory o_x

 

[Radar]

The theory is really good, and really complicated for my head to comprehend due to the complexit of it.

But I do believe there could be ties between Riku and Vanitas. The suit is definatly some kind of evidence that it is worn by someone under extreme darkness, and I too wonder where Riku got that keyblade.

 

[Smile]

The theory is really good, and really complicated for my head to comprehend due to the complexit of it.

tl;dr Riku is somehow connected to Vanitas and the KK is actually Vanitas's Keyblade. The Tug-O-War in KH1 was due to the Ven-Vanitas bond Sora and Riku utilized.
That's the very basic gist of it.

and I too wonder where Riku got that keyblade.

Inorite? I'm not ruling out people getting Keyblades when they undergo the Rite of Succession ritual, but it just doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Relix]

I don't know I guess I always thought that if one was performed the rite on that they were guaranteed a keyblade in the future. I mean when Terra did it on Riku he expected Riku to go look for him once he got the keyblade (or am I just mixing up the speech that came with the rite? meh) and Aqua was pretty sure that Riku having the rite performed on him would guarantee him a keyblade which is why she didn't perform it on Sora. It could also be that she was just considering the possibility that he'd wield. :/

The more I read your theory the more I find it possible but I really really hate the thought of Vanitas being inside Riku. But biased is biased I guess. Can't fight what's in front of me...but I still don't like the thought. I always loved Riku's character I just hate how BBS downplayed his character (by having Terra say his line) saying that Riku and terra were alike (i know they are but they kinda forced it. idk). And now with this Vanitas thing :/ or am I worrying over nothing?

 

[Smile]

I don't know I guess I always thought that if one was performed the rite on that they were guaranteed a keyblade in the future.

Guaranteed having a Keyblade in the future =\= having a Keyblade dormant inside you from the get-go. It just means that Riku got the WttD eventually, not that he had the KK inside him from 10 years ago.

I mean when Terra did it on Riku he expected Riku to go look for him once he got the keyblade (or am I just mixing up the speech that came with the rite? meh)

It was part of the speech he gave Riku. I'd sooner blame it on Riku's wanting to see the World rather than any true promises. Regardless, he might've felt Riku's potential and knew that one day he'd be worthy rather than make sure he had a Keyblade from the get go.

and Aqua was pretty sure that Riku having the rite performed on him would guarantee him a keyblade which is why she didn't perform it on Sora. It could also be that she was just considering the possibility that he'd wield. :/

I'm more down with the bolded part. Being Wielders, her becoming a Master while Terra didn't, and Ven's insecurities as a whole was what tore the three apart. At that point I think the very chance Riku'd end up Wielding was too much to risk, especially since with all my disdain of Aqua, she's not still the kind of person to risk ruining the lives of two children. Also, there's the whole IF Riku should ever stray, Sora should save him bit, which could also imply Riku might not end up being a Wielder who'd stray if one at all.

The more I read your theory the more I find it possible but I really really hate the thought of Vanitas being inside Riku.

After what they did with Ven and Sora? I find it hard to think that anything's holy anymore. And a Vanitas-Riku relation simply explains far too ridiculously much in the series, like the KK fiasco and even Xion, what with Riku's Memories leaking into Sora.

but I still don't like the thought

Neither do I, but it just seems that's the direction the series is heading. Just being BFFs isn't good enough it seems and even Sora and Riku are likely to be tied together in a low-level, existential way.
I'm just glad that despite the Namine fiasco, Kairi wasn't thrown into the mess too yet.

I always loved Riku's character I just hate how BBS downplayed his character (by having Terra say his line) saying that Riku and terra were alike (i know they are but they kinda forced it. idk). And now with this Vanitas thing :/ or am I worrying over nothing?

The Terra-Riku think I can remotely forgive because if Wielderfying anyone made them a copy of yourself, Eraqus would've had two mini-hims running around but that's not the case. Though who knows, what with the whole Xehanort fiasco >_>; I mean, the "I thought you were stronger than that" WAS said post-possession, after all x.x; thus, relating this to SoVen's "my friends are my power".
And a Riku-Vanitas relation, again, would explain a lot of plot elements as well as, sadly, chibiKuu's eventual growth into a spoiled, bitchy bratty teen rather than someone closer to Terra in KH1.

tl;dr Nomura stopped reusing only character designs and has now upped the ante with creating personality clones.

 

[Relix]

.After what they did with Ven and Sora? I find it hard to think that anything's holy anymore. And a Vanitas-Riku relation simply explains far too ridiculously much in the series, like the KK fiasco and even Xion, what with Riku's Memories leaking into Sora.

Yeah. Idk. I guess after seeing Roxas and than having Ven as an explanation to him was more accepting of a thought than Riku-Vanitas connection. But you're right in saying it would make sense if it is true.

Neither do I, but it just seems that's the direction the series is heading. Just being BFFs isn't good enough it seems and even Sora and Riku are likely to be tied together in a low-level, existential way.
I'm just glad that despite the Namine fiasco, Kairi wasn't thrown into the mess too yet.

I liked it better when in KH being someone's friend meant something, now there's a deep meaning in all this connections and harboring. Then again this compliments the "fate/destiny nothing is left to chance" bull crap I guess.

The Terra-Riku think I can remotely forgive because if Wielderfying anyone made them a copy of yourself, Eraqus would've had two mini-hims running around but that's not the case. Though who knows, what with the whole Xehanort fiasco >_>; I mean, the "I thought you were stronger than that" WAS said post-possession, after all x.x; thus, relating this to SoVen's "my friends are my power".
And a Riku-Vanitas relation, again, would explain a lot of plot elements as well as, sadly, chibiKuu's eventual growth into a spoiled, bitchy bratty teen rather than someone closer to Terra in KH1.

Oh gosh. Riku turned into a watered down Vanitas xD

tl;dr Nomura stopped reusing only character designs and has now upped the ante with creating personality clones.

it wouldn't have been a bad thing if they were similar in a less conspicuous, but the relation is like right there in your face. Thankfully Terra and Riku aren't entirely similar. I like both of their personalties equally. Where as Riku was kind of a douche, Terra's the all work and no play. :/ -shrugs-

 

[Smile]

I guess after seeing Roxas and than having Ven as an explanation to him was more accepting of a thought than Riku-Vanitas connection.

I blame that on Nomura liking to keep quiet about Riku (at least until recently), and the fact that ironically, Riku had more plot than Sora did so he didn't need lookalikes or replicas. Repliku ended up being more character development for Riku and basis for Xion than anything truly meaningful in the long run so far.
But as much of a plot curve-ball as this'll be, he has the time-skip needed for it and the logical conclusions to such an act that in fact, as I said before, will de-Deus-Ex-Machina one of the most meaningful elements in the series, being how a non-Wielder managed to reach into a Wielder's Heart and pull a freaking Keyblade out from there.

I liked it better when in KH being someone's friend meant something, now there's a deep meaning in all this connections and harboring. Then again this compliments the "fate/destiny nothing is left to chance" bull crap I guess.

I hate the fate/destiny thing. I wish the series would've ended after KH2 xD;;; but seeing how that's the theme they're going with, it seems that NOTHING is left for chance. I guess they're aiming at the Deus Ex Machina elements.
Hell, they even gave a "plot" explanation to Kairi reaching the islands, even though it made sense before - what with Terra choosing Riku and Kairi, being a PoH, following his powers as Xehanort predicted when he kicked her out to begin with.
So, yeah. What's such a minor detail like Riku's personality and individuality to them?

Oh gosh. Riku turned into a watered down Vanitas xD

Better than Sora being a slightly less clingy Ven :C

it wouldn't have been a bad thing if they were similar in a less conspicuous, but the relation is like right there in your face.

All that's missing is the say-so.

Thankfully Terra and Riku aren't entirely similar.

Until I remembered the "c'mon, Sora/Ven, I thought you were stronger than this" comment came post-possession :C

I like both of their personalties equally. Where as Riku was kind of a douche, Terra's the all work and no play. :/ -shrugs-

I can see Riku as more playful than Terra post-KH2. Though they are kind of similar, both really caring for their friends and acting as older-brother figures.

 

[Relix]

I blame that on Nomura liking to keep quiet about Riku (at least until recently), and the fact that ironically, Riku had more plot than Sora did so he didn't need lookalikes or replicas. Repliku ended up being more character development for Riku and basis for Xion than anything truly meaningful in the long run so far.

Surprisingly Repliku is, to this day, my favorite "clone" in anyway shape or form.

But as much of a plot curve-ball as this'll be, he has the time-skip needed for it and the logical conclusions to such an act that in fact, as I said before, will de-Deus-Ex-Machina one of the most meaningful elements in the series, being how a non-Wielder managed to reach into a Wielder's Heart and pull a freaking Keyblade out from there.

I still don't see how Nomura plans to explain Riku's time away from everything. Better worded: what exactly does Nomura have in mind during that time?
Days barely explained anything in my opinion (i guess because it wasn't supposed to xD). But there is time and space for Riku to find out about Vanitas in this time frame. Or catch a hint of him.

I hate the fate/destiny thing. I wish the series would've ended after KH2 xD;;; but seeing how that's the theme they're going with, it seems that NOTHING is left for chance. I guess they're aiming at the Deus Ex Machina elements.
Hell, they even gave a "plot" explanation to Kairi reaching the islands, even though it made sense before - what with Terra choosing Riku and Kairi, being a PoH, following his powers as Xehanort predicted when he kicked her out to begin with.
So, yeah. What's such a minor detail like Riku's personality and individuality to them?

I know, they aren't leaving it to the character's growth or anything. It's like from the beginning the were meant to go through this and over come it in such and such way. Okay not so much that last part but still. They're taking the control of their lives out of their hands. For all we know Aqua jinxed Riku when she said he may stray onto a dark path xD

Better than Sora being a slightly less clingy Ven :C

Yeah I suppose so. I liked it better when Sora was chipper and fun-going because he just was. Now we got Ven with the exact same personality. Well Sora's more independent in my opinion. And less of a baby and less insecure.

Until I remembered the "c'mon, Sora/Ven, I thought you were stronger than this" comment came post-possession :C

I try to pretend that never happened xD

I can see Riku as more playful than Terra post-KH2. Though they are kind of similar, both really caring for their friends and acting as older-brother figures.

And actually fighting tooth and nail with their inner struggles.

 

[Smile]

Surprisingly Repliku is, to this day, my favorite "clone" in anyway shape or form.

I think he is to many regardless of liking Xion or anyone else. He just messed things up the least. He came, made his mess, and left, never to be seen or heard from again.

I still don't see how Nomura plans to explain Riku's time away from everything. Better worded: what exactly does Nomura have in mind during that time?
Days barely explained anything in my opinion (i guess because it wasn't supposed to xD). But there is time and space for Riku to find out about Vanitas in this time frame. Or catch a hint of him.

I was talking more about the 'time-skip' between when Aqua was in DI and met Sora and Riku, and between when Terra threw Ven into DI. Vanitas could've met with Riku then, and that's also why he was there when Ven showed up.
The rest I could care less about at the moment.

For all we know Aqua jinxed Riku when she said he may stray onto a dark path xD

Setting aside how I do think that character-wise, Aqua telling Sora to look after Riku right after Terra promised him everything he ever wanted made him grow to be a bit bitter, I'd sooner say that plot-wise, Aqua jinxed Riku by making Kairi reach the islands. We already know the poor boy has jealousy issues...

Well Sora's more independent in my opinion. And less of a baby and less insecure.

I blame that a lot more on environment rather than them being different people at their cores. Ven had rather a traumatic life and then he forgot it to boot while Sora grew up, having a basically perfect childhood up to the age of 14. It's like identical twins who grew up differently based on their environment.

And actually fighting tooth and nail with their inner struggles.

At least Xehanort as a 'whole' seems to have been less of a bastard than MX was to Terra.
Though he seemed to be more of a rapist than MX was with Terra >A>;;;

 

[Relix]

I was talking more about the 'time-skip' between when Aqua was in DI and met Sora and Riku, and between when Terra threw Ven into DI. Vanitas could've met with Riku then, and that's also why he was there when Ven showed up.
The rest I could care less about at the moment.

Lol ah. that's interesting, but i'd still like to know what went on with him during his time away from everything, like when and how exactly WttD showed up.

Setting aside how I do think that character-wise, Aqua telling Sora to look after Riku right after Terra promised him everything he ever wanted made him grow to be a bit bitter, I'd sooner say that plot-wise, Aqua jinxed Riku by making Kairi reach the islands. We already know the poor boy has jealousy issues...

xD

I blame that a lot more on environment rather than them being different people at their cores. Ven had rather a traumatic life and then he forgot it to boot while Sora grew up, having a basically perfect childhood up to the age of 14. It's like identical twins who grew up differently based on their environment.

Yeah but even twins raised in different environments can completely different personalities. Despite what the drama they've been through (or lack of in Sora's case) they still manage to have practically identical personalties.

At least Xehanort as a 'whole' seems to have been less of a bastard than MX was to Terra.
Though he seemed to be more of a rapist than MX was with Terra >A>;;;

which is ridiculously creepy...

 

[Smile]

that's interesting, but i'd still like to know what went on with him during his time away from everything, like when and how exactly WttD showed up.

One can only hope they'll show that bit :\ Riku and Sora's Keyblades both seem to be kind of special cases (Riku's if only because he had the SE prior) and lord knows they went on about Sora's... now it's Riku's turn. I'm just glad he's gradually getting more screen time.

Yeah but even twins raised in different environments can completely different personalities. Despite what the drama they've been through (or lack of in Sora's case) they still manage to have practically identical personalties.

Well identical twins don't have the elder's Self shoved into the younger's vessel at the tender age of 4 >_>

ok we're straying now. Let's sum it up as :
You don't like it but can't debunk it.
K?

 

[Relix]

ok we're straying now. Let's sum it up as :
You don't like it but can't debunk it.
K?

Fair enough.