Returning to the Command Menu

[KH2Rulz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUZteAoN3ew

This video by Bizkit047 (one of the best, if not the best, KH players in the world) perfectly illustrates why I'm glad we are returning to the Command Menu.

It's also a reason why I'm slightly worried that Team Osaka is helming KH3. However, I'd like to point out that the E3 trailer showed:
1. An aerial Fire finisher - much more KH2 than BBS/DDD
2. Enemies being staggered on each hit (though we didn't see long enough combat to determine if they had proper revenge counters)

Hopefully, these two examples indicate that Team Osaka are following the mould of KH2FM's successful combat while adding in balanced new options.

What do you think? Do you agree with the video?


TL;DW of the Video:
1. Higher leveled commands have enormous startup times and potential cooldown times that lead to vulnerability due to the lack of invincibility frames. This makes them fairly useless in fights, and thus diminishes the actual variety of moves in a fight.

2. KH2FM progresses magic throughout the game, making it so you're not overpowered during the early game. For example, Reflect shatters in one attack, but Reflega absorbs all enemy attacks.

3. BBS/DDD lack a 'revenge counter' system that punishes players predictably for trying to infinite combo an enemy. This leads to fights like Vanitas where you have no idea if you'll get attacked or not, and also diminishes the variety of moves you'll use in a fight. This makes you more likely to stick to moves that are single hit, with lots of i-frames and you can pull off quickly.

4. DDD in particular has a horrible staggering system that's almost random. This means pulling off a full combo is a matter of chance rather than skill.

5. BBS dodging is severely broken. Aqua and Ven's dodges have no startup or end time, meaning you can roll forever and never take damage. KH2FM rewards players for successful timing, and punishes those who make a mistake.

6. BBS' mobility is severely lacking in fluidity and utility. DDD's flowmotion was a great idea that was somewhat hampered by it's implementation.

7. BBS/DDD essentially make the physical combo useless.

 

[Morgenstern]

I agree on all points, though I hope that some of the higher leveled commands (Salvation, Faith, Mega Flare etc.) do return in some shape of form, but KH having a simplistic elemental system with the command menu (one magic per element, and new new spells are upgrades to previous ones) make this pretty unlikely, At the very least they could be combo finishers to counter point 7

Ideally want to see the following Spells

• Fire
• Blizzard
• Thunder
• Aero
• Cure
• Reflect
• Gravity
• Zero Gravity
• Spark
• Balloon (with some nerfs)
• Mega Flare
• Faith
• Fission Firaga and other spells that share elements
• Meteor
• And the En-Spells, at least to explain the fire finishers

Outside of Magnet Splash and the Magnet Physical commands of BBS, I don't think it should return as a spell since it was kinda useless in KH2 IMO (to MP intensive) and apparently too Broken in BBS (I just mostly used it for Prize Pods)

As a fix to both the Surge and the Physical command issues I'd reccomend making the Surges finishers under the En-Element effects that trigger when the target is far away (and actually include Ice and Wind variants)

Since reaction commands are apparently gone, I see no hope for Limits making a return but I think Strike Raid and Ragnarok could return as normal attacks (plus they haven't ruled Shotlocks out AFAIK)

I have no comments on the dodging since I haven't played the games on higher difficulty besides the one where the problem lies (then again I am doing Terra on Proud)

 

[AlbertJ]

I agree with this completely and I cannot be happier that it looks like we are returning to the old battle system. KH2 nearly perfected it and then they went in a different direction with the command deck. What made me miss it the most was playing 2.5 and going back and forth between KH2 and Birth by Sleep. BbS just feels so slow and clunky in comparison.

 

[Vanitas666]

You could tell when the enemies would strike back when locked in a combo in KH II???
I thought BBS did a much, much, much better work on that because you could break out of combos much faster so it never bothered me that much in comparison to KH II and that god damn 3D (totally on all the flaws he pointed out and they seam to bother me even more) where you started a string of combos and sometimes it could take 2 second or more to break out and probably up to 4 seconds if not even longer when using Final Form.
Kinda agree about the dodging though and a few combo variations could be fun even if I barely ever used them in KH II what so ever other then by mistake when I was trying to break out from a combo and dodge away to avoid being hit but NO! WTF?

I much prefer functioning combos over flashy ones but it is also rather true that the command deck made normal fighting quite weak and unnecessary, that is true. (Much like 3D made you die all the time because they had to overpower the enemies to keep up with you being so powerful.)

Btw, I'm not saying that BBS's combo system was perfect or anything because I would prefer it if you could keep the combo up and unleash a finisher before the enemy manage to attack back or at least in Vanitas case he could freeze in the air like he does and then you should be able to dodge him before he strike back no matter where you are in your combos but you can beat him anyway by just doing one attack and then dodge (I believe 2 strikes work as well if you see what he's doing because you can dodge quickly after that).

PS. KH III look like it might have perfected the exploration but we'll have to wait and see, so far so good though.

 

[Antar]

Glad to see someone else who shares the same opinion as me on KH2fm combat. It feels and functions so much better than any of the other kh games. Movement in KH2fm was also amazing. We'll probably get to see some more combat at D23 so I won't judge it now.

 

[Anagram]

I'm all for the command menu returning. The deck system has long overstayed it's welcome without doing much to stay fun. I'd rather have my menu back when I enjoyed playing the games most. Which is as recent as this year thanks to remixes.
Give me less options with a wider variety of effects over a large "variety" of moves with no differences in affects any day.

 

[Org14Kurix(Riku)]

Warning: I haven't played KHBBS in since 2011, KHDDD since 2012 or KH2 since 2006 or 2007. I just finished KH1FM and am making my way through KHReCoM


[video=youtube;b0p_JS0cG40]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0p_JS0cG40[/video]
I just want to be able to fluidly use a diverse set of magic commands. If KH3 captures that and I use magic besides cure often. I'll consider it a win. Hopefully since they aren't going with the command deck they have multiple quick commands. So you have access to 8-12 different spells instead of just 4.

 

[Vanitas666]

I just want to be able to fluidly use a diverse set of magic commands. If KH3 captures that and I use magic besides cure often. I'll consider it a win. Hopefully since they aren't going with the command deck they have multiple quick commands. So you have access to 8-12 different spells instead of just 4.

Not sure how they would pull of that though, I'd say 8 at most if they don't use the L2 button for anything else (which they don't always do I think). They could also have more powerful versions of spells so if you have Firaga on Square you might shot a Crawling Fire by holding that button down a second and hold it down 2-3 second for a even more powerful attack like meteor or what not.

 

[Launchpad]

Command Menu is truly the best. The deck was novel, but hasn't stood the test of time, and created severe grinding and balance issues in KH BBS/DDD.

Command Menu is jesus

 

[Anagram]

Command Menu is truly the best. The deck was novel, but hasn't stood the test of time, and created severe grinding and balance issues in KH BBS/DDD.

Command Menu is jesus

Menu Jesus .

 

[Launchpad]

I'm so damn excited about being able to use the command menu again. Magic in KH1 and KH2 just felt so well integrated, and now items can go back to being useful again..

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

I kind of find the magic in the command menu harder to use. If it wasn't the three I put in shortcuts, I didn't use them. Which is sad because there's some cool stuff to be had. Maybe that'll be different this time around.

 

[Launchpad]

I kind of find the magic in the command menu harder to use. If it wasn't the three I put in shortcuts, I didn't use them. Which is sad because there's some cool stuff to be had. Maybe that'll be different this time around.

That was an issue, but it also forced you to be strategically selective for certain fights... Was it a feature or a mistake? Who knows.

 

[jahob000]

I agree on everything. Even though I love Kingdom Hearts, I've never been a skilled player. I would always button mash. I know, lol. A shameful way to play. I did notice that on KHIIFM on Critical that none of my epic button mashing skills would work. As a result, I've never beaten any of the optional bosses. In fact, I've never beaten any of the optional bosses in any KH game.

The problem here is that it seems like they were trying to make the games a lot easier for casual players like myself despite having multiple difficulty settings. On Critical mode it seems like to rectify the easy playability due to spamming powerful commands on was to throw in random counters as if saying "It's still hard right?". I think they were in general trying to reach out for casual players. Seeing as how even some of them would like to try against the secret bosses, they fixed it so that they are easily beaten with big attacks once you figure out their mechanics.

All of his points made sense, but maybe when I replay all of the games, I'll get a true understanding by playing seriously and challenging myself so I can see what he's talking about.

 

[Precursor Mar]

About time someone pointed out how badly designed the handheld games are. A lot of people like to bash KH2 for it's button mashy combat but even vanilla KH2 had better gameplay than any of the handheld games.

I wanna have fun. KH2 was fun. Ergo, I want KH3 to be like KH2FM but better.

 

[Zephyr]

What makes Kingdom Hearts II very successful is that it has a staggering system and rewards players for figuring how to time your attacks as well as the introduction of combos. Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep and Kingdom Hearts 3D however is unbalanced in this aspect and rarely any of the bosses stagger.

Actually I believe the reason why fans complained about KH2's combat is because magic was implemented differently in the field and combat. There were fewer enemies that needed certain magic for elemental weaknesses and the sort.

 

[RoomKey]

I never had any issues with KHII system. And I actually did use magic such as lightning and reflect.

But it was too easy sometimes, for sure.

(Btw, love your profile picture)

 

[Muke]

I'm so damn excited about being able to use the command menu again. Magic in KH1 and KH2 just felt so well integrated, and now items can go back to being useful again..

This. And only this.
lolololololololololololololol

 

[Anagram]

That was an issue, but it also forced you to be strategically selective for certain fights... Was it a feature or a mistake? Who knows.

This man right here ^ he truly gets it.

About time someone pointed out how badly designed the handheld games are. A lot of people like to bash KH2 for it's button mashy combat but even vanilla KH2 had better gameplay than any of the handheld games.

I wanna have fun. KH2 was fun. Ergo, I want KH3 to be like KH2FM but better.

Oh lord the handhelds were definitely button mashy. The only difference was you wasn't mashing X but triangle to spam your command deck. It was honestly no different than KH2 in the regard that it was mashing a button. People talk about "variety" but the only variety is visuals. In the end it's all just spamming to do damage like KH1 or 2.

So few commands actually had strategic value which is sad given the number of titles using the deck system.

What makes Kingdom Hearts II very successful is that it has a staggering system and rewards players for figuring how to time your attacks as well as the introduction of combos. Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep and Kingdom Hearts 3D however is unbalanced in this aspect and rarely any of the bosses stagger.

Actually I believe the reason why fans complained about KH2's combat is because magic was implemented differently in the field and combat. There were fewer enemies that needed certain magic for elemental weaknesses and the sort.

This man also gets it.

That was definitely a gripe of mine. Sure you could find uses for magic but you weren't inclined to do so. In KH1 magic had unique affects on enemies. Fire heartless were weak to ice, ice to fire, heavy or big heartless were weak to gravity, aero was a life saver, etc.
It was the combination of unique affect and the tech point system that made KH1's magic standout over KH2's.

KH1 also threw in little things like certain chests only being available to you after you lower it with gravity, using fire to open merlins door, thunder to restore power to a section of Traverse Town. It was truly interactive with little things to find.