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Retcons might (potentially) ruin the Game for many



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Face My Fears

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I always saw it as using him for prequel material like what happened in the spinoff games, not really sequel stuff. But I suppose it all paid off in the end with what they did with him.
I don't think Nomura had KHUX stuff in mind around KH2. I just meant that the interest in Xigbar being more than just a regular Organization member was present in KH2. I assume Nomura ran with it after and when KHUX became a thing, he must have been really inclined to using Xigbar even further. You would think a more shocking reveal would have been Demyx or Luxord, two characters with literally no known backstory and the least expected to have been there at the end, so I guess Xigbar written as Luxu shows how much Nomura was interested with his character.

(which is weird because I find Xigbar's fighting style and fights in general not that interesting, but like he always says... IF HE HAD A KEYBLADE maybe his fights would be cooler)
 

OneDandelion

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A lot of the decisions Nomura made as the series went along make it really hard for me to believe he planned every major detail out from early on.

The amount of inconsistencies and the just plain contrived as hell stuff that happens to explain away these inconsistencies is a testament to that.

Many good examples of this are demonstrated in Charriii5’s video up there.
No one's claiming Nomura planned the entire thing from the start, all im saying is he had an outline. That is how most longer series are written. They have an outline and as they go along they think of things they believe are better or they discover inconsistencies and they change things accordingly. Someone here claimed JK Rowling planned the entirety of Harry Potter from start to finish - I'd be willing to bet a lot of money against that.

Writing is a messy process, all I've ever said was that it was insulting to say Nomura just "makes stuff up as he goes"
 

Tartarus

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Idk if this really counts as a retcon or not, but something I really didn't like is how trivial they made keyblades seem in KH3.

Riku and Mickey's Keyblades broke and they were easily able to get new ones from Yen Sid.

Axel's keyblade just materialized for some reason, and then Xemnas was able to break it with his bare hands.

It's like they are saying a keyblade can form from the strength of a person's heart, but then in the same sentence saying that Keyblades can be weak and expendible. So how you can have a strong heart, but a weak keyblade ? It just doesn't really make much sense imo.
I actually think that's a negative development that started with KH2, too. That's the game where they started handing out Keyblades to everyone and now they don’t really mean anything anymore.
 

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Well thats very different than planning out the entire thing. Its not uncommon for authors to start with an idea of where they want to end up, but like sign said that doesnt necessarily mean the story will be good either.

Maybe nomura has a draft planned of the ending already as well, maybe hes had it for a while. Who knows? Its a creative process. I also favor kh over harry potter and i grew up with both, so your comparison to HP doesnt really matter to me
 

Face My Fears

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I actually think that's a negative development that started with KH2, too. That's the game where they started handing out Keyblades to everyone and now they don’t really mean anything anymore.
I mean only Kairi was handed a keyblade in KH2, which was Nomura's thinly veiled attempt at making Kairi relevant. Roxas having keyblades is understandable. I suppose KH2 can be blamed for the beginning of the Sora clones, and I guess keyblades being handed out to every character (Roxas, Xion, Ven).

Most writers have the end planned out first. Knowing how Harry Potter ends doesn't mean that she knew every single detail of the 7 books. Having the end in mind is good for writers to navigate how they will get there, it sorts of keeps them on track while going from the beginning and middle to get to the end.

Given that JK Rowling expected an end for Harry Potter, it's expected that her ending could be definitive. I'm sure Nomura had an ending for KH1 in mind (since he thought KH would only be one game). Now that KH is well... KH, who knows how many more games he will be accessed to make, let alone how many he has planned. Which means we can't know for sure if he has the ending planned and everything that we're going through now is just his way of building towards it. For all we know, 5 games from now there could be some mindblowing explanation as to how Riku got Kairi's keyblade and it all makes sense and is a major plot point that Nomura was building up to (highly unlikely, but still).
 

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Well, I didn't care about the Star Wars comparison either because I don't like SW. And, from what I've read, there are a lot of people who don't like the writing in that series either. But I will say that Nomura isn't even in Rowling's radius when it comes to writers, SNS.
 
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George Lucas and Nomura share more similarities than Rowling. Funny enough both gained paramount success through the saving grace of others. They're both very passionate men who are driven by ideas and scenarios. George's vision for the OT was constantly changing but he was using the Hero's Journey to guide everything into place. Add to the fact that he was met with resistance by his crew and stars to change things for the better.

Early to mid 2000s Nomura is more like OT George, while late 2000s to 2010s Nomura is more like PT George.

EDIT: I forgot there is a striking similarity between Nomura and Rowling, the incessant need to disclose important details outside their products, i.e Nomura with Ultimanias/interviews and Rowling with Twitter.
 

Face My Fears

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George Lucas and Nomura share more similarities than Rowling. Funny enough both gained paramount success through the saving grace of others. They're both very passionate men who are driven by ideas and scenarios. George's vision for the OT was constantly changing but he was using the Hero's Journey to guide everything into place. Add to the fact that he was met with resistance by his crew and stars to change things for the better.

Early to mid 2000s Nomura is more like OT George, while late 2000s to 2010s Nomura is more like PT George.

EDIT: I forgot there is a striking similarity between Nomura and Rowling, the incessant need to disclose important details outside their products, i.e Nomura with Ultimanias/interviews and Rowling with Twitter.
I feel like the Ultmania interviews are out of Nomura's control. The questions asked are based on the interviewer, so maybe Nomura isn't particularly ready to answer certain questions and wings it/keeps it vague. Rowling comes up with something and posts it on twitter and makes it canon. If Nomura used Rowling's twitter strategy... I can't even imagine the state KH would be in.
 

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The fact that Nomura is asked questions is out of his control. The fact that the story doesn't make sense in-game without referring to something he said in an interview is entirely his fault however. At least the HP books actually stand on their own; anything Rowling says on Twitter is only an addition to background information, like family descriptions, wand types, etc. It's not essential knowledge for understanding the main plot.
 

Face My Fears

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The fact that Nomura is asked questions is out of his control. The fact that the story doesn't make sense in-game without referring to something he said in an interview is entirely his fault however. At least the HP books actually stand on their own; anything Rowling says on Twitter is only an addition to background information, like family descriptions, wand types, etc. It's not essential knowledge for understanding the main plot.
I agree completely. Nomura should use the journal entries to help explain things in more detail. I liked how the KH3D journal entries actually explained how the Kingdom Hearts in KH1 and KH2 were not real. I'm hoping that KH IV has a section in the journal that explains all prior stuff (especially inconsistencies/mysteries). He can even make it fun and have you do side missions/quests to unlock those detailed sections of the journal.
 

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George Lucas and Nomura share more similarities than Rowling. Funny enough both gained paramount success through the saving grace of others. They're both very passionate men who are driven by ideas and scenarios. George's vision for the OT was constantly changing but he was using the Hero's Journey to guide everything into place. Add to the fact that he was met with resistance by his crew and stars to change things for the better.

Early to mid 2000s Nomura is more like OT George, while late 2000s to 2010s Nomura is more like PT George.

EDIT: I forgot there is a striking similarity between Nomura and Rowling, the incessant need to disclose important details outside their products, i.e Nomura with Ultimanias/interviews and Rowling with Twitter.
George Lucas admitted he was a bad writer and was hounded by the actors during 4-6 which is why the writing is marginally better than 1-3. This is a good comparison, although it's hard for me to say whether or not Nomura is actually a bad writer or whether its a pacing issue stemming from finding ways to flesh out what should be a short story into a 30 hour+ game.. I say this because I think there are well written scenes with the series - I love all of the major KHUX cutscenes and I think the cutscenes between Xehanort/MoM, Xigbar/Luxord, and Luxu/Fortellers were all great. I loved the back cover movie as well.

For me it's like the writing isn't the major problem, I think it's the pacing of the games (KH3 being the worst offender) and what amounts to the filler content (darkness darkness darkness light light darkness etc...) until we finally get to the cutscenes that Nomura actually wants to write.

The fact that Nomura is asked questions is out of his control. The fact that the story doesn't make sense in-game without referring to something he said in an interview is entirely his fault however. At least the HP books actually stand on their own; anything Rowling says on Twitter is only an addition to background information, like family descriptions, wand types, etc. It's not essential knowledge for understanding the main plot.
I don't know what point you're talking about but you can't really say the KH series doesn't 'stand on it's own' when it isn't even finished yet.
 

Face My Fears

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George Lucas admitted he was a bad writer and was hounded by the actors during 4-6 which is why the writing is marginally better than 1-3. This is a good comparison, although it's hard for me to say whether or not Nomura is actually a bad writer or whether its a pacing issue stemming from finding ways to flesh out what should be a short story into a 30 hour+ game.. I say this because I think there are well written scenes with the series - I love all of the major KHUX cutscenes and I think the cutscenes between Xehanort/MoM, Xigbar/Luxord, and Luxu/Fortellers were all great. I loved the back cover movie as well.

For me it's like the writing isn't the major problem, I think it's the pacing of the games (KH3 being the worst offender) and what amounts to the filler content (darkness darkness darkness light light darkness etc...) until we finally get to the cutscenes that Nomura actually wants to write.



I don't know what point you're talking about but you can't really say the KH series doesn't 'stand on it's own' when it isn't even finished yet.
I don't think you can really compare KH or the way Nomura writes KH to anything else. KH is unique because the storytelling is unavoidably fragmented. Once you hit a Disney world, it's possibly unrelated/very controlled story that may or may not have a tiny bit to do with the main plot. At least Star Wars is able to continuously stick to the main plot and not just have huge segments where it's totally ignored -- which is a pacing issue. KH1 is the only game that didn't suffer from pacing issues IMO.

You hit the nail on the head - the reason for the pacing issues is that it's a short story that ends up being stretched into 20+ hours. I think Nomura should figure out how to have the game flow as best as possible. What I would do is try to have worlds that are at least thematically related to the plot somehow, that way even if you just experience the film plot there is some feeling of coherence between the Disney world and main plot (like Ariel wanting to see other worlds and Triton's fear of outsiders due to knowledge of the keyblade's potential to destroy). I would also try to get main plot characters in the Disney worlds, even if it's just an appearance and conversation that the film's plot enhances. Then I would have tidbits after you defeat the Disney world that expands on the main plot (NOT Gummi Phone conversations). Also, there would be a clear mid-point that ramps things up as we head towards the climax (KH2's mid-point is great, but it feels like we should have gone straight to The World That Never Was after it instead of several filler Disney worlds).
 

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Retcon is one those words that have lost all meaning to me, alongside Mary Sue and balanced.
Kingdom Hearts is a franchise notorious for retcons, if it's not explicit retcons then it's implied retcons.

And you know what, I can see people calling it quits with some of the retcons. If there's no consistency to the universe that you build, especially if it's an outlandish one like Kingdom Hearts then some folks will just check out.
 

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Since many corrected me before might as well explain my point clearer this time and tell you what I’m trying to say, I hope everyone can understand my point without getting confused (I will try my best!) Here’s what I mean:

“I don’t want them to keep rewriting stuff just for it to tie to the next saga, for example (let’s say) terra and aqua are actually from the past (like ventus) therefore they are relevant to the next saga, that’s what I mean, they keep changing stuff just for it to tie to the next saga, when imo they don’t need to do that, they can still keep the characters relevant and instead of rewriting stuff they can just add new stuff? Like Yozora stuff, see that’s Good and it was added new, now we are in the new saga so please stick with that and just add new stuff that doesn’t involve rewriting or retcon, if they keep doing this then I honestly won’t be surprised if they tell me that
Xion was never a puppet but this whole time her heart was inside a replica blah blah, and Roxas was a real boy this whole time he was his own person but after he died his heart needed refuge inside Sora blah 😑, you seeing my point? I can roll my eyes on the Xigbar/luxu I’m ok with it (obviously wasn’t intentional) since Nomura did take a liking to how mysterious Xigbar was and decided to make him important, anyhow they Can rewrite stuff if they want they have been doing it since kh2 but seriously don’t try to justify every bs you make and want me to believe it, we are in the new saga, don’t need to rewrite anything from the old saga just so it can connect to the new one, next you’ll tell me all the worlds we visited in kingdom hearts 1 to 3 aren’t real but just data made by book of prophecy just so it can tie to the foretellers saga, but please don’t... if you want to rewrite something make it better instead of shoving it down my throat, regardless the xehanort saga ended, I’m happy we get more stuff from xehanort but I don’t want to see them rewrite stuff from the dark seeker saga just to tie it to the next saga... it’s tiring”.

I’m ok with Ventus being from the past we never knew of his past, all we know is xehanort found him and took him in, terra and aqua however we already know they grew up in the land of departure so if you come to with a bs saying their life was fake cause they lost their memory therefore they are actually from the past... then I’m done with this xD (not really I love this stupid franchise) I honestly can handle the confusing plot it’s not the best story telling But it’s interesting to the point I can enjoy it, but don’t do bs in front of me please and thanks you.

Instead of My first comment, I will say this comment here is the real deal of this topic, hope y’all understood my point better Now.
 

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I don't know what point you're talking about but you can't really say the KH series doesn't 'stand on it's own' when it isn't even finished yet.
"Standing on it's own" means you can get all the essential information from reading/playing/watching a single piece of media without having to refer to extra material like interviews, production books, or secret reports... or non-canon comics for quality character writing.
 

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"Standing on it's own" means you can get all the essential information from reading/playing/watching a single piece of media without having to refer to extra material like interviews, production books, or secret reports... or non-canon comics for quality character writing.
series isnt over which means he can add amplifying information found in interviews etc in future games
 

Face My Fears

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"Standing on it's own" means you can get all the essential information from reading/playing/watching a single piece of media without having to refer to extra material like interviews, production books, or secret reports... or non-canon comics for quality character writing.
I also think that the series stands on its own right now as a complete saga. I've recently begun to view the KH series through two different lenses: 1) a step back and looking at the whole story from a distance and 2) a close up with intense observations.

If you take a step back and look at the Xehanort Saga without questioning every detail, the story is cohesive and stands on its own. There isn't anything that actually happens in the games that you NEED outside information to understand, at least nothing that I can think of (perhaps because I'm so enthralled in the KH series, I may have missed something).

However, if you begin to ask questions about specific things like Ven's past, how did the current Xion return to the Organization, what is the Power of Waking etc. you will require Ultimania's and other outside information. Those things should have better explanations, but they don't stop the story from progressing, let alone stop the Xehanort Saga from standing on its own. To use Star Wars as an example again, we don't need to know full details on the force/lightsabers/dark side for the story to stand on its own.

KH's biggest issue is execution, but I really don't think the plot is that complicated that it cannot stand on its own.
 

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I also think that the series stands on its own right now as a complete saga. I've recently begun to view the KH series through two different lenses: 1) a step back and looking at the whole story from a distance and 2) a close up with intense observations.

If you take a step back and look at the Xehanort Saga without questioning every detail, the story is cohesive and stands on its own. There isn't anything that actually happens in the games that you NEED outside information to understand, at least nothing that I can think of (perhaps because I'm so enthralled in the KH series, I may have missed something).

However, if you begin to ask questions about specific things like Ven's past, how did the current Xion return to the Organization, what is the Power of Waking etc. you will require Ultimania's and other outside information. Those things should have better explanations, but they don't stop the story from progressing, let alone stop the Xehanort Saga from standing on its own. To use Star Wars as an example again, we don't need to know full details on the force/lightsabers/dark side for the story to stand on its own.

KH's biggest issue is execution, but I really don't think the plot is that complicated that it cannot stand on its own.
In some cases it really is the execution. There was a part in DDD I never understood for years, then I read the novel where they explained it a little better and now I'm like 'Oh! How did I not understand that from the games?' probably because of the execution...or I just wasn't paying attention lol.

Even though I make fun of it, I don't find KH's lore all that more convoluted then Star Wars, Marvel, DC, or even Harry Potter.
 

Face My Fears

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In some cases it really is the execution. There was a part in DDD I never understood for years, then I read the novel where they explained it a little better and now I'm like 'Oh! How did I not understand that from the games?' probably because of the execution...or I just wasn't paying attention lol.

Even though I make fun of it, I don't find KH's lore all that more convoluted then Star Wars, Marvel, DC, or even Harry Potter.
Which part was that?

And I make fun of KH's lore and the story all the time with other people that like the series and will get it. However I do think that people are just overly critical of KH because the information is spread across so many different games and because of this, it feels like the information took forever to be revealed and/or some people don't have access to certain information. If someone only played KH1 and 2, then played KH3 they would be lost as hell and complain that the series can't stand on its own... which would be true if KH was meant to be experienced like that, but it's not.
 
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