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Retcons might (potentially) ruin the Game for many



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Foxycian

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The saga is made up of multiple arcs; and it doesn't matter if retcons occur within a single arc or multiple ones within the same story. They also haven't been "changing stuff" to suit the narrative. Say what you want about Nomura's ability to write a story but the changes that you've mentioned have been the result of either characters deceiving each other or acting without complete knowledge which are both perfectly reasonable literary devices.
Not really an issue for me tho since this isn’t the first time I see a game or anime that keeps making up stuff as they go on, I knew from the start Nomura writing abilities isn’t the best (not saying it’s the worst either it’s still entertaining to watch) Guess I’m just not fan of the Weak narrative, if they want to rewrite something or retcon then they should make it like the Xigbar situation, I know he wasn’t luxu from the start until they decided that he will be, but still, at least they picked the character with most shady personality and has many secrets, I can buy that he is luxu, as for Vanitas tho if he tunes out to be his own person then (imo) that ruins his character, if you read his novel ofc, he was supposed to be an empty creature born from someone’s darkness, and the fact through bbs kh3D and Kh3 he keeps chasing ventus and claims to be Ventus’s other half, I won’t buy this weak narrative if he turns out to be his own person after making him say all those stuff, ofc knowing Nomura he will make it possible and even that will convince me later on, but as of “now” I’m not convinced (until I have enough time to accept it) if Vanitas turned out to be darkness from khux.

but I see where everyone is coming from, but I won’t deny that I’m not fan of rewriting or retcon stuff in the series just to fit into this or that category, just hope the series won’t get more complicated then it already is😅
 

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Ultimately I feel this thread might end up as another discussion about Nomura’s writing rather than the subject at hand. The writing is the core so it’s impossible not to address it, but the way I see it we’re discussing if we agree with Nomura’s choices.
 
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OneDandelion

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Tbh I thought Xigbar being Luxu was one of the best twists of the series but call it weak if you want. It's pretty insulting to say Nomura and his team are just making this story up as they go, maybe parts of it are weak but shit - if all of this is simply "made up as they go" then they're doing pretty well for themselves despite putting in minimum effort like you're implying.

I have no problem with Vanitas' story either, actually I like where (I think) they're taking it.
 

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The Xigbar/Luxu one still gives me goosebumps every time I view it. The music sounding mysterious and ominous, The Foretellers all looking at him and the hood coming off to reveal it's Xigbar. One of the best moments in KH history, but I seriously doubt Xigbar was meant to be this important when they wrote KH2.

The other one I see talked about is the Ansem reveal. I didn't mind it I just thought it could have been executed better. The way Mickey reveals it "He just went around telling everyone that he was" makes it sound like just some average thug pulling a prank when it was more serious then that. I feel the reveal was better when Xemnas appears and we get the apprentice Xehanort flashback.
 

Foxycian

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Tbh I thought Xigbar being Luxu was one of the best twists of the series but call it weak if you want. It's pretty insulting to say Nomura and his team are just making this story up as they go, maybe parts of it are weak but shit - if all of this is simply "made up as they go" then they're doing pretty well for themselves despite putting in minimum effort like you're implying.

I have no problem with Vanitas' story either, actually I like where (I think) they're taking it.
I don’t mind few things being rewritten, also what i said is (pls pay attention to what I said in my previous comment) that I like the Xigbar/luxu twist, you (kinda) make it sound like I hate it xD not gonna point finger at you tho just letting you know that plot twist was Ok for me I enjoyed it.
 

Ernest-Panda

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IDK what the big fuss is about creators making things up as they go; it's not like planning out a multi-part franchise from the beginning guarantees good results.
Plotting the whole story from the beginning and making it up as they go along are completely counterintuitive to each other.

J.K. Rowling didn’t write each Harry Potter book on the fly and just have the plot go in whatever direction she fancied with no foresight, she pre-planned the entire saga before she even put pen to paper, with only minor details changing along the way.

Nomura came up KH1’s story when he didn’t even think it would continue beyond the one game, with its secret ending being a literal case of throwing random elements at the wall and making sense of it later should a sequel be demanded.
 
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Foxycian

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Guess I made my point clear I’m not a fan of Retcons, and if all of those stuff I listed aren’t Retcons then I apologize for not knowing, either way hope kh doesn’t Retcons stuff that I like, on the other hand I can bare with the rewriting stuff, except the 0.2 Mickey should stop babbling his mouth and not spoil stuff for aqua lol that’s all I have to say.
 
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OneDandelion

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I don’t mind few things being rewritten, also what i said is (pls pay attention to what I said in my previous comment) that I like the Xigbar/luxu twist, you (kinda) make it sound like I hate it xD not gonna point finger at you tho just letting you know that plot twist was Ok for me I enjoyed it.
sorry, misread.

“Plotting the whole story from the beginning” and “making it up as they go along” are completely counterintuitive to each other.

J.K. Rowling didn’t write each Harry Potter book on the fly and just have the plot go in whatever direction she fancied with no foresight, she pre-planned the entire saga before she even put pen to paper, with only minor details changing along the way.

Nomura came up KH1’s story when he didn’t even think it would continue beyond the one game, with its secret ending being a literal case of throwing random elements at the wall and making sense of it later should a sequel be demanded.
that is an utterly ridiculous assertion to make. Even if Nomura didn't completely plan out the story the themes and direction were and sometimes that's all you need. It's like when musicians argue over whether you should write the lyrics for the song before or after the melody. The creative process is different for everyone.

Saying he's "making it up as he goes along" implies he puts zero thought into the future of the series which is bonkers to me. As creative director for something you've spent 18 years putting together, how could anyone even suggest that the man hasn't planned it out? Again, you may not like how it's written but anyone whose dedicated a lot of time to creating anything knows that ideas constantly flow in and out, and Nomuras been sitting on this creation of his for 18 years. Give me a break.
 

Face My Fears

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Guess I made my point clear I’m not a fan of Retcons, and if all of those stuff I listed aren’t Retcons then I apologize for not knowing, either way hope kh doesn’t Retcons stuff that I like, on the other hand I can bare with the rewriting stuff, except the 0.2 Mickey should stop babbling his mouth and not spoil stuff for aqua lol that’s all I have to say.
Not spoil stuff for Aqua? Um... wasn't Mickey attacked and labelled as "stupid" for YEARS because he didn't tell Sora and Riku about Aqua? It would have made no sense for Mickey not to tell Aqua what was going on, let alone not have Aqua at least inquire about the situation. I can understand Mickey not bringing up Aqua to Sora/Riku during the events of KH1-2, but in 0.2 it would have really stood out if Mickey didn't address the situation at hand. It was literally the end of the world.
 

Foxycian

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Not spoil stuff for Aqua? Um... wasn't Mickey attacked and labelled as "stupid" for YEARS because he didn't tell Sora and Riku about Aqua? It would have made no sense for Mickey not to tell Aqua what was going on, let alone not have Aqua at least inquire about the situation. I can understand Mickey not bringing up Aqua to Sora/Riku during the events of KH1-2, but in 0.2 it would have really stood out if Mickey didn't address the situation at hand. It was literally the end of the world.
If anything it’s the developers that I should accuse, they should have made aqua and Mickey get separated before he said anything to her, like let the demon tide take aqua but early before he revels the plan to her, in just not fan of Mickey telling aqua the boys who saved the worlds, I don’t want to discuss this further so I will just leave this video here.

This video explain it better then I am.
 

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The Xigbar/Luxu one still gives me goosebumps every time I view it. The music sounding mysterious and ominous, The Foretellers all looking at him and the hood coming off to reveal it's Xigbar. One of the best moments in KH history, but I seriously doubt Xigbar was meant to be this important when they wrote KH2.
According to Nomura's KH3 Ultimania interview he decided Xigbar would be important while working on KH2.
Nomura: I hear that a lot, but on the inside I meant for Xigbar to be a character with a special position from early on, which is why I had him do suspicious things. During voice recording for KH2, while listening to Hochu Otsuka's voice (Xigbar's voice actor), I felt that there was no way Xigbar was just an ordinary soldier in the system—he definitely had something going on behind the scenes—and midway through production the setup developed into what we have now. That kind of thing does happen sometimes: the setup behind a character transforming as I bounce off a voice actor
 

Ernest-Panda

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that is an utterly ridiculous assertion to make. Even if Nomura didn't completely plan out the story the themes and direction were and sometimes that's all you need. It's like when musicians argue over whether you should write the lyrics for the song before or after the melody. The creative process is different for everyone.

Saying he's "making it up as he goes along" implies he puts zero thought into the future of the series which is bonkers to me. As creative director for something you've spent 18 years putting together, how could anyone even suggest that the man hasn't planned it out? Again, you may not like how it's written but anyone whose dedicated a lot of time to creating anything knows that ideas constantly flow in and out, and Nomuras been sitting on this creation of his for 18 years. Give me a break.
A lot of the decisions Nomura made as the series went along make it really hard for me to believe he planned every major detail out from early on.

The amount of inconsistencies and the just plain contrived as hell stuff that happens to explain away these inconsistencies is a testament to that.

Many good examples of this are demonstrated in Charriii5’s video up there.
 

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At least they eventually acknowledged it in-game. There's a Kingstagram post of Mickey talking about how Yen Sid likes to change the location from time to time, hence Donald being surprised by the tower being so close to Twilight Town.

Or could just use the easier excuse: he doesn't remember every single detail from a decade ago. It's Donald, it doesn't require a huge stretch of the imagination.
When was Donald ever portrayed as absent minded in the series? Hotheaded sure but I cant recall any moments when he showed signs of being forgetful
 

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When was Donald ever portrayed as absent minded in the series? Hotheaded sure but I cant recall any moments when he showed signs of being forgetful
Why are you restricting this to just KH? Donald as a character, in the 80+ years since his creation, hasn't been known to be the sharpest tool in the shed.

Even if you dismiss that, the first point still stands. Whether you buy it or not (I don't really) is another story, but that's what they're going with.
 

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A lot of the decisions Nomura made as the series went along make it really hard for me to believe he planned every major detail out from early on.

The amount of inconsistencies and the just plain contrived as hell stuff that happens to explain away these inconsistencies is a testament to that.

Many good examples of this are demonstrated in Charriii5’s video up there.
Nomura definitely didn't plan things ahead of time. Heck, the only reason Xion even exist is that Kanemaki got her paws in, came up with her concept, and he thought the memory clone aspect was cool. That was it. I need to find that interview.

It's very obvious the man jumps to cool and "great" ideas and puts them in, then thinks about the consequences later. That's why narrative wise KH3 was incredibly mediocre. He had to put all the shit he pulled out from his ass over these post-KH2 side games and close them out while trying to make sense of them.

I feel before he had people that reigned him in from doing this sort of thing, but that has lessened. He's surrounded by yes men now in my opinion.
 

SweetYetSalty

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According to Nomura's KH3 Ultimania interview he decided Xigbar would be important while working on KH2.
I mean sure they used one of his lines applying other Keyblade users, as well as used him for BBS foreshadowing in the final mix, but there is no way they could have planned for him originally to be this big of a villain for the future. That's what really surprises me.
 

Face My Fears

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I mean sure they used one of his lines applying other Keyblade users, as well as used him for BBS foreshadowing in the final mix, but there is no way they could have planned for him originally to be this big of a villain for the future. That's what really surprises me.
If you look at his journal entry in KH2, it implies that Xigbar has a greater role. It's very vague, but I definitely feel like Nomura was planning for Xigbar to be more important. He may not have envisioned Xigbar to be Luxu back in KH2 days, but I think Nomura wanted to use Xigbar more, so he hinted at Xigbar being more than he seemed in KH2. Then when BbS came about, he put Xigbar in there and I guess Xigbar's role just grew from that point.

To all the people saying that Nomura was making it up as he went along, I say... so? George Lucas had only decided to change Darth Vader into Luke's father AFTER Episode IV came out. Leia being Luke's sister was decided later too. If a great trilogy like Star Wars can have the creator "make stuff as he goes", then why is Nomura attacked for it? Don't use Nomura doing what all creators/writers/artists do against him. If you have a problem with the result, then call him out for that, but I think it's weak to use Nomura "making stuff up as he goes" as something detrimental and the reason why you don't like the KH plot.
 

SweetYetSalty

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If you look at his journal entry in KH2, it implies that Xigbar has a greater role. It's very vague, but I definitely feel like Nomura was planning for Xigbar to be more important. He may not have envisioned Xigbar to be Luxu back in KH2 days, but I think Nomura wanted to use Xigbar more, so he hinted at Xigbar being more than he seemed in KH2. Then when BbS came about, he put Xigbar in there and I guess Xigbar's role just grew from that point.
I always saw it as using him for prequel material like what happened in the spinoff games, not really sequel stuff. But I suppose it all paid off in the end with what they did with him.
 
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