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Replaying KH2



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Kimmy1980

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I recently fired up my Playstation 2 (which still works) and replaying some good old Kingdom Hearts 2.

Got to Halloween Town/Christmas Town last night.
With how the new story is shaking out with Union X and everything and knowing that time travel is a part of the KH universe, I am wondering now if Maleficent brought Oogie Boogie back with time travel or just using her sorcery ways?

His memory is very scattered, and the old bag of bugs can't even stand up straight.

Thoughts? or am I over analyzing things?
 

okhi12

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I think it has more to do with Maleficent's sorcery, given Oogie is an unusual being made of bugs, but the same principle that allowed her return could apply to him. I'm not talking about time travel, but the fact -first implied in KH2 by the three fairies, later confirmed by Darkness in Union X- that as long as someone is remembered they'll be able to come back because that creates some kind of connection, meaning the memories of others kept what remained of Oogie anchored to the world.

I wouldn't say time travel was involved this time because unlike Maleficent who went to the past before returning to her own time a year after she was defeated by Sora, Oogie was brought back without time traveling at all, his return took a year only because Maleficent wasn't there until she returned and it was her who brought him back. The memory loss thing may be just for the sake of comic relief, or it could imply that somehow Oogie wasn't fully reconstructed. I think that's the case, like he didn't recover all his original bugs or something like that.
 

AR829038

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I think it has more to do with Maleficent's sorcery, given Oogie is an unusual being made of bugs, but the same principle that allowed her return could apply to him. I'm not talking about time travel, but the fact -first implied in KH2 by the three fairies, later confirmed by Darkness in Union X- that as long as someone is remembered they'll be able to come back because that creates some kind of connection, meaning the memories of others kept what remained of Oogie anchored to the world.

I wouldn't say time travel was involved this time because unlike Maleficent who went to the past before returning to her own time a year after she was defeated by Sora, Oogie was brought back without time traveling at all, his return took a year only because Maleficent wasn't there until she returned and it was her who brought him back. The memory loss thing may be just for the sake of comic relief, or it could imply that somehow Oogie wasn't fully reconstructed. I think that's the case, like he didn't recover all his original bugs or something like that.
But being revived through memory is only possible if one has travelled forward in time as a disembodied heart using the ark, and we know Oogie couldn't have done that. Without that method, the person's heart would not still be around in order to regain its corporeal form.
What Maleficent did was just pure witchery, necromancy technically. And keep in mind, KH2 still had a more relaxed attitude about rules governing things like time travel and bringing people back from the dead. This is the same game where a magic door just comes out of nowhere and lets Pete travel back in time, which according to later entries in the series should be all kinds of impossible.
 

okhi12

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But being revived through memory is only possible if one has travelled forward in time as a disembodied heart using the ark, and we know Oogie couldn't have done that. Without that method, the person's heart would not still be around in order to regain its corporeal form.
What Maleficent did was just pure witchery, necromancy technically. And keep in mind, KH2 still had a more relaxed attitude about rules governing things like time travel and bringing people back from the dead. This is the same game where a magic door just comes out of nowhere and lets Pete travel back in time, which according to later entries in the series should be all kinds of impossible.
You're right about the ark but we don't know for sure if that's exclusive to hearts that time traveled through it. Kairi restored Sora's corporeal form after he became a heartless even though Sora's body already existed as Roxas (and Naminé). Kairi may be a princess of heart and all, but I don't find that to be very different to the ''as long as you're remembered, your body can be restored'' nonsense.
Actually I don't think that's Oogie's case but I wouldn't rule it out, it's still a possibility. If the time travel rules are wacky, the body recovering instances are even more random through the series and there are no established rules.
Oogie is not a ''normal'' being, anyway, and that could mean restoring him is as simple as filling a bag with bugs and resentment, that's kinda how he came into existence in the first place (not unlike how Vanitas's heart was reconstructed).

With the existing info, Maleficent's necromancy is by far the most likely explanation. Also explains why Oogie Zoombie became the brainless amnesiac joke he was, haha.
 

Raz

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Oogie's return feels like an isolated incident and a result of Maleficent's own powers rather than having anything to do with broader KH lore. Halloween Town in KHII is one of the more filler-heavy worlds. I wouldn't look too much into it.
 

AR829038

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You're right about the ark but we don't know for sure if that's exclusive to hearts that time traveled through it. Kairi restored Sora's corporeal form after he became a heartless even though Sora's body already existed as Roxas (and Naminé). Kairi may be a princess of heart and all, but I don't find that to be very different to the ''as long as you're remembered, your body can be restored'' nonsense.
Actually I don't think that's Oogie's case but I wouldn't rule it out, it's still a possibility. If the time travel rules are wacky, the body recovering instances are even more random through the series and there are no established rules.
Oogie is not a ''normal'' being, anyway, and that could mean restoring him is as simple as filling a bag with bugs and resentment, that's kinda how he came into existence in the first place (not unlike how Vanitas's heart was reconstructed).

With the existing info, Maleficent's necromancy is by far the most likely explanation. Also explains why Oogie Zoombie became the brainless amnesiac joke he was, haha.
The reason I go so hard on the ark as a requirement is because it's been explicitly stated in KH3 that when a person dies (as in, dies dies, like most of the Disney villains do), their body AND their heart perish, leaving only their soul to go to the Final World, and ultimately disappear as well.
As for Kairi reviving Sora, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that the official cause is her princess powers, not the memory resurrection.
All in all, everything we've been given to believe suggests that being revived by memory is NOT a normal or natural workaround for somebody dying—as far as we know, it is only possible when a person has shed their body but their heart remains in the realm of the living, and the only three ways to do that are A) being turned into a Heartless, B) releasing one's own heart by using the Keyblade, and C) traveling forward in time using the ark. Other than those three situations, eradication of the body results in concurrent eradication of one's heart as well, at which point revival becomes impossible.
Not to mention that, even if I were wrong and you COULD just revive people by remembering them, do you have any idea what kind of can of worms that will open for the series going forward? We already have the bs power of waking, but at least that comes with a hefty price. If people just start resurrecting the dead by having flashbacks, there'll never be any weight or stakes to the story anymore.
 

Elysium

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Several of the Disney villains don't really die normal in KH1. Oogie is infused with darkness before he dies. Same with Ursula, she disappears in a black pool (although she dies a real, certifiable death in 2 and still appears in 3D somehow?). Maleficent, of course, was pumped full of darkness just before we fight her dragon form, too. So I'm not 100% certain their hearts perish in KH1?
 

AR829038

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Several of the Disney villains don't really die normal in KH1. Oogie is infused with darkness before he dies. Same with Ursula, she disappears in a black pool (although she dies a real, certifiable death in 2 and still appears in 3D somehow?). Maleficent, of course, was pumped full of darkness just before we fight her dragon form, too. So I'm not 100% certain their hearts perish in KH1?
Just because someone is "pumped full of darkness" doesn't preclude a normal death. There's a difference between falling to darkness and becoming a Heartless.
Also, Ursula did die in KH1. She got revived like Oogie in KH2, though we have no idea how (her appearance in KH2 Atlantica continues to be one of the most confounding and frustratingly perplexing mysteries in the series to me), and in 3D, you're basically fighting a projection of her (hence her being called Phantom Ursula in-game) that Young Xehanort brought into the Sleeping Realm version of Destiny Islands, similar to how he brought forth all the other Xehanorts in that game, who were able to exist in the Sleeping Realm without bodies, unlike in KH3. Think of her as just Ursula from KH2 being astral projected into the past by YX.
 

Face My Fears

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But being revived through memory is only possible if one has travelled forward in time as a disembodied heart using the ark, and we know Oogie couldn't have done that. Without that method, the person's heart would not still be around in order to regain its corporeal form.
What Maleficent did was just pure witchery, necromancy technically. And keep in mind, KH2 still had a more relaxed attitude about rules governing things like time travel and bringing people back from the dead. This is the same game where a magic door just comes out of nowhere and lets Pete travel back in time, which according to later entries in the series should be all kinds of impossible.
The other interesting thing about the magical door that appears for Pete is that it appears in Hollow Bastion, but sends him back in time to Disney Castle... which seems random. I could understand if a time travel door appeared to Pete in Disney Castle, but it's just odd connecting the worlds (although Disney Castle may be special, as it also had a portal to the Keyblade Graveyard just appear).

I think Oogie's return was solely the result of Maleficent's powers. I think it comes down to the nature of Oogie, compared to the other villains. Oogie is made of bugs, so presumably once you get his bag and fill it with bugs you will get Oogie? At least Oogie had an explanation, Ursula died twice and came back after with no explanation.
 
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The other interesting thing about the magical door that appears for Pete is that it appears in Hollow Bastion, but sends him back in time to Disney Castle... which seems random. I could understand if a time travel door appeared to Pete in Disney Castle, but it's just odd connecting the worlds (although Disney Castle may be special, as it also had a portal to the Keyblade Graveyard just appear).

I think Oogie's return was solely the result of Maleficent's powers. I think it comes down to the nature of Oogie, compared to the other villains. Oogie is made of bugs, so presumably once you get his bag and fill it with bugs you will get Oogie? At least Oogie had an explanation, Ursula died twice and came back after with no explanation.

The magic door that appears in Hollow Bastion and leads to Disney Castle has always puzzled me too. It's something I don't think we got an explanation for in KH2. I think it's just something they decided not to explain, for whatever reason. I could be wrong, though. Maybe someone else picked up on more details than I did. I personally don't remember an explanation for that, though.

Oogie Boogie's return does make more sense than Ursula's. Although, if I remember correctly, there was something in Jiminy's Journal that said Ursula simply used her magic to come back, similar to Maleficent. I could be wrong; maybe I'm just not remembering it correctly, but I thought there was at least that small explanation in Jiminy's Journal. If so, it's not a very detailed explanation, but it's better than nothing.
 

Face My Fears

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The magic door that appears in Hollow Bastion and leads to Disney Castle has always puzzled me too. It's something I don't think we got an explanation for in KH2. I think it's just something they decided not to explain, for whatever reason. I could be wrong, though. Maybe someone else picked up on more details than I did. I personally don't remember an explanation for that, though.

Oogie Boogie's return does make more sense than Ursula's. Although, if I remember correctly, there was something in Jiminy's Journal that said Ursula simply used her magic to come back, similar to Maleficent. I could be wrong; maybe I'm just not remembering it correctly, but I thought there was at least that small explanation in Jiminy's Journal. If so, it's not a very detailed explanation, but it's better than nothing.
They didn't address the door linking from Hollow Bastion to Disney Castle in KH2. I don't think they ever even mentioned the time travel door after KH2.

I can kind of understand Ursula returning in KH2, I attribute it to her surviving the battle in KH1. How she returns in KH3D is a mystery because she was clearly killed in KH2. She is described as "Phantom Ursula" so maybe it's not really her?
 
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