Whichever is not straight.
Relationships
- Thread starter Hexxagone
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Ven being somewhat center can come because of his direct connection but that does not automatically mean Terra or Aqua will just become his "sidekicks". On the contrary, now that all the convoluted Xehanort-crap and characters trapped with half-destroyed hearts plot devices is dealt with there is a good chance to finally portray the whole TAV as a trio dynamic better than BBS itself ever did.
At the end of the day even if Ven takes center stage story wise, Terra's much bigger physical strength and Aqua's expertise in Magic and defense can come in handy, not to mention that both of them certainly haven't abandoned their protective streak for Ven at all.
Which would mean
3. Naminé and Xion, Riku and Roxas
I suppose?
Well yeah to the first part, second part...how do I feel about Riku dating Sora's other self?? I've honestly never even considered this possibility. Kinda funky, kinda cute.
Personally I'd prefer they'd avoid coupling the characters. I feel like Sora and Kairi are enough. Especially seeing those two are kind of an example of how poorly the series would handle couples, if they did end up going that route. For now let's leave the coupling to fanfics.
Before they entertain the thought of making more, I think they need to develop the implied couple first. Oddly enough the scene in Carona show they can actually showcase chemistry between characters, even if it's the wrong ones.
I don't think every girl in this Series needs a boyfriend and our media is lacking solid intergender friendships. So often a show or series will couple up male-female best friends, especially towards the finale. (I'm still salty they made Ron and Kim a couple in Kim Possible.)
I'm personally not a fan of Terra and Aqua hooking up. For me those TAV are like siblings. Terra the over-confident older brother, Aqua the level headed middle child and Ven the lovable little brother.
So having Terra and Aqua hookup would feel weird.
Regarding TAV and RAX returning, i feel like both groups have been tied in with future plotlines pretty well. Namine is a bit of a question mark, but I'm hopeful she'll continue to be part of the series. But this convo feels like it should probably have it's own thread.
So can Riku be our aro-ace representation?
Before they entertain the thought of making more, I think they need to develop the implied couple first. Oddly enough the scene in Carona show they can actually showcase chemistry between characters, even if it's the wrong ones.
I don't think every girl in this Series needs a boyfriend and our media is lacking solid intergender friendships. So often a show or series will couple up male-female best friends, especially towards the finale. (I'm still salty they made Ron and Kim a couple in Kim Possible.)
I'm personally not a fan of Terra and Aqua hooking up. For me those TAV are like siblings. Terra the over-confident older brother, Aqua the level headed middle child and Ven the lovable little brother.
So having Terra and Aqua hookup would feel weird.
Regarding TAV and RAX returning, i feel like both groups have been tied in with future plotlines pretty well. Namine is a bit of a question mark, but I'm hopeful she'll continue to be part of the series. But this convo feels like it should probably have it's own thread.
So can Riku be our aro-ace representation?
It doesn't really seem to be in the agenda of Nomura's writing scheme anyway. The only thing I'd worry about is him simply doing it and it not being done well.
As for Terra and Aqua, it'd be fine, though I seriously don't think Nomura will approach that either. Terra and Aqua, in specific relation to each other, haven't shown anything of significant sibling-like behavior outside of the group+Eraqus familial dynamic. I really wish we learned more about their history before Ven came into the picture. Maybe the BBS novella might approach it.
The fact that stuff like Terra/Aqua and Riku/Namine didn't really even seem like remote possibilities prior to KH3 in that they were mostly relegated to the realm of fanfiction, and now they've got potential roots in the actual story, is just so aggravating. KH doesn't need this, it never needed this, KH3 literally just ruins everything it touches. </3 </3 </3
Nomura really Naruto'd the fuck out of this game.
I guess it's true that Terra and Aqua don't have as much sibling like behavior towards each other. Still the group as a whole does give me that vibe.
I'd love there to be a new BBS game that explores their past and coonection to Scala ad Caelum a bit more.
Hm i personal see people blowing small interactions a bit out of proportion.
People could always see Shippings in any interaction especially if the characters played well of each other.
As long as it remains in the fandom and fanfics, I'm fine with it.
I mean, Terra and Aqua's two moments in KH3 were great and all, but it hardly was anything more significant than what we were supposed to assume about their friendship anyway. Nomura just didn't emphasize it in previous installments—notably in the same effectiveness to how other relationships have, including their own with the young Ven. Any root for a relationship holds about the same ground of possibility as it did before, though I doubt it'll turn in the official writing though. Fanfiction will still have its fun.
Riku and Namine though, I still think its funny. It's like a blast from the past when CoM came out, people were pairing them together with little resistance, with a dash of Riku Replica specifically as well. Then "BHK" came along and took the torch, and now people are all about Riku and Namine again—this too with Xion. Oh, wait, Repliku has returned as well! Goodness. I will go ahead and place my bets it'll change once again in the fandom when Namine interacts with any other character in KHIV lol
That's honestly why I'm slightly annoyed with how 0.2 was handled. If there was a time to learn more about Aqua's past, specific ambitions for her dream, and so on—that was definitely the moment. It wasn't a complete whiff—not to mention it was meant to be a short game—but man, significant missed opportunities are hard to ignore. Still was doable.
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Wasn't it part of KH III's aim that by having Roxas (and others) return as their own people this whole "other self" stuff can be finally buried?
Roxas is Roxas, no one else.
Exactly my stance as well.
To be honest this stuff happening now was exactly what I expected to happen if they decide to go through with SoKai, no matter of contrived, cringeworthy and dumb it is ultimately displayed.
Once you get one canon pairing there is this rush to "pair up the spares" and as feared everything that is not romantic love will be treated as an afterthought or "not enough" by large swaths of the fandom.
What I don't get about the sudden spiel about Terra and Aqua is that when it comes to actions or statements they do nothing seems to be exclusively for each other alone.
Aqua worrying, caring and being affectionate is shown in KH III to be towards both Terra and Ventus and when it comes to the whole "lighting my way back" Terra explicitly points out that it were both Aqua and Ventus who did it.
Like in several other cases shippers only see what they want to see and ignore/blend out the rest.
Riku and Naminé is both funny and facepalm worthy at the same time because it is grounded in only two feeble things: a single scene and that they're of opposite sexes.
The first reasoning can be blasted to the next worldline easily because as with the example I brought up about the seashell collecting scene between her and Xion in the ending, you can construct a pairing from any single scene where two people are affectionate with each other.
Spinning it further from the ending alone when observing closely you could make a claim for
- Aqua & Mickey
- Lea & Isa
- Terra & Roxas
- Ventus & Donald
The second reasoning on the other hand is just subconscious bias and mental conditioning by wider society to always see a relationship between two people of opposite sex who are somewhat close to evolve into a romance, hence why I posted that quote from Hayao Miyazaki earlier in this thread.
Well, the "lighting my way back" was still directed at Aqua specifically, but the overall scene was about the importance of both Ventus and Aqua in his journey. It still effectively molds to the group mentality, though. Their second interaction I believe sticks out a bit more for the two specifically. Overall, Nomura just doesn't emphasize their particular friendship exclusively.
It's honestly a whole thing, but one of many reasons I feel this has happened is because Ventus is very much so the centerpiece of the BBS trio. It'd be fine, really, if it didn't then expose the imbalance within the TAV trio concerning the showing of Aqua and Terra specifically. The affinity of the group falls onto him in the overall storytelling, though Aqua's hopeful belief in Terra's tango with the darkness in BBS adds some weight to their individual friendship, mainly from her view alone. (The 2nd interaction is in Scala, which is pretty much a callback to this) Both Aqua and Terra have shown/told an emotional depth towards the young Ven that really defines what their relationship is towards him on an individual level, this in reverse as well. We can't say the same for Terra and Aqua—mostly in the same degree of presentation. This seems sort of ridiculous considering we know they've known each other before Ventus even arrived—this fact doesn't present itself in the writing of their dynamic at all. I'd almost assume they had just met the same day Ventus came into their lives. At the very least, we know they're best friends—this at the expense of "telling" more than "showing", but thankfully, there are key moments that can be taken into account. This is really the reason why people ship them—there's still a fundamental foundation to go on (friendship, age, etc), and perhaps, it's also because of the mystery of their past. (As you say, subconscious bias can be a factor, but even this can be diverted in context and for the audience by how storytelling is handled)
It's still incredibly imbalanced, however. The most day and night revelation of the imbalance is most apparent in 0.2 when she first "encounters" them both back to back. It's almost hilarious once you see it.
Perhaps Nomura deems emphasizing the aspects of their specific friendship unnecessary to tell the story. This could be true, and at a certain point for them specifically, I wouldn't necessarily disagree that what we do/don't know about them detracts from the agenda of the narrative. But as we know, an approach to a writing style that doesn't focus on fully optimizing its own storytelling elements can lead to some troubling results. The lack of Axel/Kairi's training and Kairi's general role in KH3 speaks for itself. I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but that's why I wish we got a bit of knowledge about Terra and Aqua's past, which we know is connected for a period of time. Concerning their friendship, it is noticeably lacking on an individual scale in comparison to the rest. Riku and Kairi's friendship suffers a bit from this as well, but with the interactions they do have—and knowing the full context of their background in relation to each other, they're better off than Terra and Aqua in this department. I'm pretty convinced that overall, the RAX trio is the most balanced.
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Now i kind of want to switch my PS4 and play that scene amd see if they use the plural or sigular "you".
Yeah RAX has the most balanced friendship portrail so far.
I think Terra and Aqua's underdeveloped relationship hasnt bothered me as much. They at least think of each other and only had one full game together. Considering their limited screen time in kh3, they did get a decent amount of interactions.
Still i can see myself having similar issues, i have with Riku and Kairi's friendship portrail, if it continues to fall to gloss over it.
You mean the Japanese release right? Would be interesting, though it seems pretty straight forward in presentation. Interact with "A" and then "B", then "AB" for snuggly group hug time.
Overall, I do like what KH3 presented for them. Part of my expectation was that they wouldn't have that type of interaction at all outside of the inevitable group hug reunion. Expectation partially met, but either way, KH3 for Terra and Aqua still did more good than harm for their friendship.
Spoiler Show
Actually I meant German, not the original but still interesting to see that translation.
You're rather bald assuming the next game is KH4, haha
I do hope that what ever the plot of the alluded to game is, that it's not just the Sora and Riku show again. I'd love for Kairi and Riku to go on an adventure together.
At the moment I am scared it'll be Riku on a quest and Kairi again on the islands being sad and waiting for Sora, so he has someone to come home to.
I meam sure the dialog in this game said she was done with that, but I'll not truely believe it until I see it.
I do think the other characters will factor into the next Saga's story, but not sure about the next game.
Remember how they made a whole game dedicated to a simple unimportant question fans had: "what was in the letter a the end of KH2". This could end up being the same.
The wording is different and the part involving Ven is a specific callback to the promise made in BBS itself when Terra and Ven have a conversation at the Outer Gardens in Radiant Garden, but the core meaning is the same.
Terra owes his return and freedom to the efforts of both Aqua and Ventus, not just some super-special supposed romantic connection with Aqua alone.
As you already stated, there isn't really something groundbreaking new that warrants an "aha, now romance" epiphany.
I'm not sure if the BBS Trio even has a center piece since when counting BBS, 0.2 and KH III together there are multiple instances where each side of the triangle is given a bit of attention.
I agree it isn't as equally presented as in the Days-Trio's case but it is certainly better in every way than the Destiny Trio since Riku & Kairi get almost no attention at all past KH 1 (which also plays into Kairi not being allowed to be truly a character of her own at all).
I wouldn't exactly call Terra & Aqua having as much of a neglect of their friendship portrayal as Riku & Kairi have simply because they do at least get a few glimpses.
That it gets immediately painted as romantic in nature again is the jarring and unwarranted part, especially when both show the same amount of affection and care to Ventus they show to each other.
Not to mention that two characters of opposite sexes being close without having romantic entanglements is really something that should be normalized alongside with stopping the whole "romance is the highest and most important form of love"-mantra.
Yea a logical setup for the next game is Kairi feeling terrible that she believes she is the reason Sora is not there and is determined to fight to get him back. So she trains up or w/e and actually means it when she says this time she will protect Sora. What will probably happen is Riku does all the heavy lifting and Kairi stays on the island just saying she believes Sora will be ok.
Yeah it's not so bad now, but i think it's something we'd probably have to keep an eye on. Kairi and Riku's firendship started out being shown stronger than it has been since KH1.
I 100% agree. I always found it frustrating when people assumed that the friend I was hanging out with was my girlfriend.
If we can denormalize that assumption that'd be great.
I like how the relationships so far, besides Sora and Kairi, have mostly been framed as platonic.
I just hope that moving forwaed they take a page drom Frozen and treat "true love" as the highest form of love, regardless if platonic, familial or romantic
Oh gosh, you nailed my fear perfectly.
Ehh, that's not necessarily true. (we largely agree, just throwing some stuff out really) If it was displayed on the same magnitude there wouldn't be any question of the amount of emphasis Terra and Aqua's friendship has gotten in all of BBS, 0.2, and KH3. As you said, most of Terra and Aqua's actions or statements are usually supplied for the group mentality rather than explicitly to each other, but if we're regarding them on an individual level, there has been more emphasis put on their separate relationship with Ventus than each other. Their history for what we know starts with Ventus and continues to be told in way of them taking care of him, rather than where they started off together as apprentices. This time together is not even shown or referenced between them. Between Aqua and Ven, Terra and Ven—Aqua and Terra haven't gotten the same treatment in terms of the "showing" aspect.
Its not horrible though, I don't mean to make this seem like my intention. There are key moments to point out, most notably from Aqua's point of view in BBS. Overall, we do know what we need to know, which is that they're best friends and that they do care about each other. But, simply knowing it and showing it though can come in contention if not enough is expressed as to support it. If it didn't, Riku and Kairi wouldn't be considered something to work on either.
I only say Riku and Kairi would be ahead mainly because of the context of knowing their childhood friendship and we do see this relfection in certain moments. Yet, other than the small showings in KH, CoM, KH2, and the end of 0.2, there isn't anything significant in comparison to other individuals—to say its not balanced with what has been shown between Sora and Riku or Sora and Kairi. I'm not even sure Riku and Kairi really interact in KH3 outside of Riku worrying over her death. Really, they all just need improvement. A part of me wonders if Nomura has averted emphasizing certain relationships because of the fears of people shipping them.
Or his writing is just low at times.
I don't know.
Certain relationships just need work in general.
To add, the idea of friendships turning into romance isn't inherently a bad notion. Seeing that open potential between characters like Aqua and Terra can be reasonably mandated by what has been supplied by the context. However, this means something different when people try to change the actual context to befit their notions. Someone would have a hard time objectively explaining that every interaction between Aqua and Terra up to this point was fueled by romantic intention, whether from a character or writer perspective.
"BUT BUT, no one would EVER sacrifice themselves like that for a friend!"
...It can be frustrating when people do that. But, I don't try to let that erode what has been presented. Terra and Aqua are best friends, I just wish the overall presentation supported this more, especially in comparison with how it has with others in the narrative. It's good to show strong relationships outside of romance, this is very important to emphasize and recognize, but I don't want to cross a line in stigmatizing romance in storytelling either. (Not that anyone is here, I think. Just saying in general)
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Does Nomaura look like Kishimoto to you? The guy actually made a ship, canon, wtf lmao.
Lets keep it all friends here, like that old Nick show "All That" from the 90s.
Having said this, I am not against the idea of having a romantic relationship in these games, but when so much emphasis is put on friendship, darkness, light, heart, etc. Leads you to sway more towards love being a central theme. Anyone who's sleeping on the definition, should understand friendship at it's base, is an extremely formidable form of love which is represented through out the string of the games.
If you need an idea of what I am trying to explain here, please listen to the first 60 seconds of the song "BLACK EFFECT" by The Carters.
I mean unless the end game is to have some babies hang around the trios I am not too bothered having no clear love pairings confirmed by the game.
How is Naruto's ending and Kingdom Hearts even comparable? The former is a far more blantant example of pairing up every single character than KH will ever be.
After seventeen years we only have one possibly confirmed ship and that's it.
After seventeen years we only have one possibly confirmed ship and that's it.