Rebirth

[SmilingMuse35]

This theory is amazing! I would not be surprised if this theory is explored during the course of the events of KH3.

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

Even if the concept of actual reincarnation doesn't come into play, there's a LOT of symbolism in this series already dealing with successors and history repeating itself.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm also curious about the concept of the seven pure lights. We've seen the princesses age, there's no way they've been around for all that time. I think that this could go hand-in-hand with this concept. Whatever it turns out being.

Also, you bring up an interesting point:

Most of the animals on the hilts have been symbolic of evil at some point or another in Christian literature--The goat as the sinner, the leopard for cruelty, the snake for the Devil, the bear for the persecution of Persia, the fox for deception. Just about the only one that can’t be traditionally seen through a negative lens is the Unicorn, or at least that I’m aware.

Unicorns are almost always seen as symbols for purity, virginity, nobility, etc etc etc. Riku's purity regained makes it a really cool symbol for him, but as far as Christian imagery? Well, there is a lot actually but as far as ominous goes there is the term that appears as "re'em" which sometimes got translated as unicorn in the bible. It made for some ominous passages.

"And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness." Isaiah 34

 

[ImpZ]

Even if the concept of actual reincarnation doesn't come into play, there's a LOT of symbolism in this series already dealing with successors and history repeating itself.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm also curious about the concept of the seven pure lights. We've seen the princesses age, there's no way they've been around for all that time. I think that this could go hand-in-hand with this concept. Whatever it turns out being.

I have been thinking this for a while now. I agree, it appears the 7 PoH's have been reincarnated over and over since the Keyblade War. If it isn't reincarnation I hope Nomura explains it all in KH3, and not in more spinoffs and prequels spread across five consoles to explain it.

 

[des97]

1. MX
2. Xemnas
3. Ansem
4. Xigbar
5. Saix
6. YX
7. Terranort
8. Vanitas
9. Anguis
10. Leopardos
11. Unicornis
12. Ursus
13. Vulpeus

Re-reading your theory, I thought something about the New Org XIII. At the and of KH 3D, Sora was supposed to be the 13th vessel, thus there were 12 assured members, 12 versions of Xehanort (or whatever you're gonna call them). This obviously means we must expect some kind of surprise as far as the 13th vessel is concerned. In your list there is no actual surprise (provided the five foretellers are really going to be the lacking members, thing that I support though), that's why I was wondering who could actually be placed at the 13th seat. Perhaps Vanitas wasn't originally meant to be a SoD? Strongly unlikely imho; maybe Vanitas is not even gonna be a member, leaving one place empty to fill with a suitable host. This is when things get complicated. If not him, then who? We can assume Terranort is definetely gonna be there (in Xehanort's image or in Terra's, who knows - Anagram's theory surely influenced me here), owing to MX's statement at Where Nothing Gathers, in KH 3D, when he implicitly said Terra was by his side. What other possible options? Let's remember they must be unexpected. What about No Heart? Would this astonish you? I mean, you have already considered the possibility of his appearence, but wouldn't it be a little bit strange? Two identical Keyblades in one place? Well, I know there is this time travel thing, but it'd kill the plot if not well explained. The fact is that I'm the one making suppositions, without any clue, and you are the one providing amazingly grounded proofs. Still, I'd like to hear what you have to say in merit. Any opinion is accepted, so you guys don't hesitate please!
I hope I've been clear and comprehensible!

 

[Zebedy]

My thoughts on the vessels part of the theory is that it doesn't really match up with what we know about them thus far. It's suggested that the placement of the vessels is deliberate, and this gives the players clues as to who is in which seat. We can see that this is true given by the placement of the vessels in KH3D. In your list, for example, you have all the known and likely members listed simply as 1-8, but that isn't how they are placed in KH3D. In KH3D they are placed like this:

1. Master Xehanort
2. Xemnas
3. Ansem/Xehanort's Heartless
4. Xigbar
5. ???
6. ???
7. Isa
8. ???
9. ???
10. ???
11. ???
12. Young Xehanort
13. Sora/???

This shows that there is a deliberate reasoning behind their positioning. The gap between Xigbar and Isa, for example, is what originally led a lot of people to believe Vanitas and Terra were vessels, because they would've been made vessels chronologically between those two people. Having Young Xehanort at the end, in Seat Twelve, also supports there being a deliberateness to their positioning, otherwise wouldn't he have just been sitting with MX/Xemnas/Ansem? Isa is also sitting in his original chair, which could suggest something as well.

But if the Foretellers were fleshing out the seats that means there would be an unnecessary break in their positions. Four of them, would be next to each other, but then the fifth would randomly be tagged onto the end (or alternatively two of them would be together to be broken up by Xigbar/Isa). This doesn't really make sense. Sora was also fully intended to be the last vessel meaning by KH3D they had already claimed the other ones, meaning only four out of five Foretellers would have been originally chosen. Why leave just one of them out? Also how would their positioning make sense with the seemingly chronological order of the seats?

I do think there is more to the Foretellers than meets the eye, and the similarities between the Keyblades and the character designs is interesting. I'm just a little doubtful about it being in service of being the remaining vessels and not for some other story purpose/reason. After all, if they had gone this route, they wouldn't have needed Sora at all, would they?

 

[des97]

My thoughts on the vessels part of the theory is that it doesn't really match up with what we know about them thus far. It's suggested that the placement of the vessels is deliberate, and this gives the players clues as to who is in which seat. We can see that this is true given by the placement of the vessels in KH3D. In your list, for example, you have all the known and likely members listed simply as 1-8, but that isn't how they are placed in KH3D. In KH3D they are placed like this:

1. Master Xehanort
2. Xemnas
3. Ansem/Xehanort's Heartless
4. Xigbar
5. ???
6. ???
7. Isa
8. ???
9. ???
10. ???
11. ???
12. Young Xehanort
13. Sora/???

This shows that there is a deliberate reasoning behind their positioning. The gap between Xigbar and Isa, for example, is what originally led a lot of people to believe Vanitas and Terra were vessels, because they would've been made vessels chronologically between those two people. Having Young Xehanort at the end, in Seat Twelve, also supports there being a deliberateness to their positioning, otherwise wouldn't he have just been sitting with MX/Xemnas/Ansem? Isa is also sitting in his original chair, which could suggest something as well.

But if the Foretellers were fleshing out the seats that means there would be an unnecessary break in their positions. Four of them, would be next to each other, but then the fifth would randomly be tagged onto the end (or alternatively two of them would be together to be broken up by Xigbar/Isa). This doesn't really make sense. Sora was also fully intended to be the last vessel meaning by KH3D they had already claimed the other ones, meaning only four out of five Foretellers would have been originally chosen. Why leave just one of them out? Also how would their positioning make sense with the seemingly chronological order of the seats?

I do think there is more to the Foretellers than meets the eye, and the similarities between the Keyblades and the character designs is interesting. I'm just a little doubtful about it being in service of being the remaining vessels and not for some other story purpose/reason. After all, if they had gone this route, they wouldn't have needed Sora at all, would they?

If their positioning has a substancial importance is something we are not aware of. If that were the case, then we should completely change our view about the unknown members. As for Sora, there were (or still, are?) good reasons for choosing him, being the youngest and therefore the most suitable one (let's remember MX is a lil bit old), but also the only vessel (as far as we know) that doesn't have to come back to his era. Thinking about this, we can notice that all the SoD's disappeared, returning to where they were taken. Does this mean they all belong to the past? What about Terra, then? There is a mess going on my head right now, and I seem I can't solve this puzzle yet. Oh, before I forget, I do believe the 7th is not Isa, but Saïx (and the reason because Lea calls him that way is probably because he considers him a traitor, since they used to be friends in the past); I'm not 100% sure, I'm trusting the wikia honestly, I hope it's not wrong, otherwise I would have to reconsiderate a couple of aspects of my thoughts.

 

[Zebedy]

If their positioning has a substancial importance is something we are not aware of. If that were the case, then we should completely change our view about the unknown members. As for Sora, there were (or still, are?) good reasons for choosing him, being the youngest and therefore the most suitable one (let's remember MX is a lil bit old), but also the only vessel (as far as we know) that doesn't have to come back to his era. Thinking about this, we can notice that all the SoD's disappeared, returning to where they were taken. Does this mean they all belong to the past? What about Terra, then? There is a mess going on my head right now, and I seem I can't solve this puzzle yet.

Well according to Nomura not all of the vessels were there by transcending time (MX, Sora, Xigbar and Isa at the very least clearly weren't), and judging by his comment, the positioning is important:

—We’re intrigued as to who the Xehanorts will use to replace Sora as the 13th Darkness.
Nomura: I left that a mystery in order to intrigue you all, of course. It’s unclear who about half of the other twelve are too, seeing as they didn’t come out from under their black coats, so I would love for you to try thinking about their true identities. It’s all set up properly who is sitting in each seat, even regarding people who didn’t show up in the scenario of this title.

So I think it's safe to say there is significance there.

Oh, before I forget, I do believe the 7th is not Isa, but Saïx (and the reason because Lea calls him that way is probably because he considers him a traitor, since they used to be friends in the past); I'm not 100% sure, I'm trusting the wikia honestly, I hope it's not wrong, otherwise I would have to reconsiderate a couple of aspects of my thoughts.

If Lea considered him a traitor he would call him Saix, not Isa?
Anyway, both Xigbar and Saix were recompleted, so they are both technically Braig and Isa. Xigbar just goes by his new name because he is still in allegiance with Xehanort. Regardless of what one calls them though, they're both the human forms of them.

 

[des97]

Woah, you seem to know way more than me about these interviews. Mea culpa, then. I still don't know if they're Saïx and Xigbar or Isa and Braig, but now I can reassemble my thoughts. Sooo, if I remember correctly, Xigbar/Braig was kinda worried because they where running out of time. Would this have been a metter if he had been a "somebody"? I don't think so, perhaps there are other reasons for this, but atm I can't think of any unfortunately. Things are that the 13th vessel really is a mystery and the five foretellers can no longer be put "in order". Could one of them be missing, like Vulpeus, for instance? (For the reasons gelandporn provided). Sorry again for the mistake!

 

[The Toketsukage]

In regards to this discussion on the original concept of the "Unbirths", it does make it seem like the original idea was for them to be the past memories or darkness of the past lives of hearts. In other words they could have originally be thought of as the shadows of past lives. Which would tie them more into the possible connection between characters of the present and characters of the Keyblade War. It also sounds a lot cooler than just Vanitas' negative emotions given form. The question would arise though as to why they would have suddenly appeared in BBS had Nomura gone with the original idea of "Unbirths" and why they don't show up after BBS. Now I wish we could have seen the Unversed be the Unbirths and how that would have played out. BBS may have been a lot different had that been one of the central themes in the game.

 

[Zebedy]

Sooo, if I remember correctly, Xigbar/Braig was kinda worried because they where running out of time. Would this have been a metter if he had been a "somebody"? I don't think so

I'm pretty sure he was worried they were running out of time in regards to the members that had transcended time, not really for himself.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I'm pretty sure he was worried they were running out of time in regards to the members that had transcended time, not really for himself.

Exactly.
We do not know the specifics, but it appears that those "Xehanorts" who originate from different time periods can only stay for a limited duration in the present.

 

[Gram]

Exactly.
We do not know the specifics, but it appears that those "Xehanorts" who originate from different time periods can only stay for a limited duration in the present.

Plus it would seem they need TWTNW played a role for all 13 to be present in one place given this:

— In other words, Ansem and Xemnas were, at the same time, existing in the time and space of KH3D as well as having returned to their true human form after being destroyed?

Nomura: Yes, it does turn out that way. However, as I said before, ‘The World That Never Was’, where the thirteen all met, is a special space. The mechanics behind how they were all able to exist at the same time is a mystery.

Though there are likely other such "special spaces" in which they can all gather. (like the Keyblade Graveyard or such)

 

[gelandporn]

But if the Foretellers were fleshing out the seats that means there would be an unnecessary break in their positions. Four of them, would be next to each other, but then the fifth would randomly be tagged onto the end (or alternatively two of them would be together to be broken up by Xigbar/Isa). This doesn't really make sense. Sora was also fully intended to be the last vessel meaning by KH3D they had already claimed the other ones, meaning only four out of five Foretellers would have been originally chosen. Why leave just one of them out? Also how would their positioning make sense with the seemingly chronological order of the seats?

I think it bears noting that the Organization tried coercing Riku again, right up until the fight with Chernabog. The roster is pretty fluid despite the sentiment that this is the “true” Organization XIII. So I don't think they necessarily claimed all the other spots by 3D, but that they were probably in the process of nabbing up other vessels during the course of the game. And I believe that will be a continual factor throughout KH3 as well. For instance, the possibility of Terra defecting would require that someone take his place, and while I’m sure Vanitas will end up being a fully realized Nort, I’m not sure he is at this time. Basically, the final roster isn’t set in stone.

That said, even if they were blasting off to the ancient past and swiping up the Foretellers during 3D, I agree that there’s no discernible reason for why they would be split in the roster. So, at the most, it would be four, which could actually play into the whole idea of Vulpeus becoming a Princess of Heart. I had actually just been talking about this with someone—That say, for example, the darkness in her heart was removed a la Ven, which would make her impervious to Xehanort’s influence. While Ven didn’t have the fortitude for having his heart torn, we see through Xehanort that it is possible to endure. Still, I think speculating any further would start to stray too far into baseless fan-fic territory.

And I also want to make it clear that my intent in creating this theory was not to explain the remaining gaps in the Organization roster. That was tacked on in anticipation of it being brought up since, as I mentioned, others have been suggesting it recently. I’ve actually got my own roster safely tucked away in an “Unfinished Theory Graveyard” on my desktop lol.

But yeah I definitely agree that at most it would be four then, not five.

As for "chronological order," while I agree that most of the seats probably have relevance in their arrangement, I wouldn't chalk it all up to that, especially with time travel in play lol. I mean, Xemnas and Ansem are clearly number 2 and 3 because they're a part of the big-bad trifecta, not because they were literally the 2nd and 3rd vessel.

 

[JustSnilloc]

This theory's pretty solid, I could see it as actually being cannon too! As per reincarnation though, I believe the princesses of heart speak for that fairly well. There's supposed to always be seven of them, right? That can only happen if the hearts are reincarnated after people die - not to mention they had to be born princesses of heart in the first place, lol.

Other than that, looks like you did your research! I enjoyed reading it ^_^

 

[TheXVthMember]

I think this theory is awesome. This guy may have just figured out part of the plot of KHIII. The biggest thing to me is how Xehanort's Keyblade matches the Foretellers, and the similarities that TVA and Riku and Kairi have with the Foretellers. It lines up perfect, almost. The only thing I have wrong with it is that this a HUGE plot device that they're pulling from Chi. I don't think they should pull something this big from a Japanese browser game. I would have much rather waited for another "side-game." That's not fair to the non-Japanese audiences (and yes I know about the Final Mix's, but I think Nomura has tried to stop putting so much separation between us now). But this is a good theory, it took a lot of thinking.

 

[Joker'sHeartless]

I've been in this fandom (and have used this very site) for almost ten years, but this thread made me make an account just so I could a) say that this is a fantastic theory and b) add a little.

Also, what if instead of time in the kh universe being a linear concept, it is cyclical. It's not exactly reincarnation, but rather the current Keyblade wielders are the Foretellers, and the story of the Foretellers is both what happened a thousand+ years before the current games and the story of the current games. It would also add slightly more sense to the time travel mechanic:

Instead of skipping over points in timeline, a 'timecircle' seems to make it a tad easier? (Sorry, I'm probably not making sense.)

This of course means that the worlds would have to be rejoined before the end of KH3 for this to be true, so that they could break apart again. Maybe the rest of the KH-series (post Xehanort Saga) would be about trying to prevent it from happening on the next go-around.

Also, FYI someone posted a link to this thread on tumblr, which is how I found it. So you might be getting some more traffic in the next few days.

Speaking of Tumblr and nonlinear wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff, someone else reblogged the link and added (aside from their admiration of the theory and its thread) that Sora should be the wild card that breaks the chain.

Basically, if this happened every 1000+ years, maybe (and this is me throwing in a Legend of Korra spin) it's like Harmonic Convergence. Every blah-thousand years the forces of order and chaos, Raava and Vaatu, have fought for the outcome of the universe since the beginning of time, except this one time, Wan shows up and tips the scale, changing the course of history forever.

That's Sora. Like the original theory said, he's the one GoL that wasn't a Forteller. He wasn't destined to be a part of this war, but he was chosen by the keyblade in the intended Guardian's moment of weakness. Now we've got this new kid with a keyblade, the power of friendship, and no predestined path. He could be the one to break the chain and bring balance to the force, so to speak.

 

[Gram]

Just a random question but if this is just a cycle of reincarnation of the foretellers, Xehanort among them, what's to stop him from eventually coming back again?

Will the unknown factor that is Sora break the cycle or only tip it in the reborn foretellers scale this round only?

 

[Ballad of Caius]

Just a random question but if this is just a cycle of reincarnation of the foretellers, Xehanort among them, what's to stop him from eventually coming back again?

Will the unknown factor that is Sora break the cycle or only tip it in the reborn foretellers scale this round only?

That's a very interesting question, but this is assuming the Foretellers won't just wage war against each other again and repeat the cycle without a Xehanort.

 

[rawpower]

Just a random question but if this is just a cycle of reincarnation of the foretellers, Xehanort among them, what's to stop him from eventually coming back again?

Will the unknown factor that is Sora break the cycle or only tip it in the reborn foretellers scale this round only?

If it's anything like what Korra did during Harmonic Convergence, I would assume that Sora would simply change the way light and darkness coexist in the world and how the many worlds interact with one another. In LoK, Korra couldn't destroy Vatuu in the same way that Unalaq couldn't destroy Ravaa. They would always be reborn inside each other to keep the balance of light and darkness. I don't think Sora will be capable of preventing any cosmic battles battles between light and darkness from happening in the future, but he might bring on a new age of keyblade wielders and light and dark will be brought to a more balanced state. It's really hard to say what might happen because Nomura is just going to come up with some crazy new plot device that completely changes how we think.

 

[Gram]

That's a very interesting question, but this is assuming the Foretellers won't just wage war against each other again and repeat the cycle without a Xehanort.

But that brings up the question would they ever have reason to fight one another without someone like Xehanort to set them apart?

If it's anything like what Korra did during Harmonic Convergence, I would assume that Sora would simply change the way light and darkness coexist in the world and how the many worlds interact with one another. In LoK, Korra couldn't destroy Vatuu in the same way that Unalaq couldn't destroy Ravaa. They would always be reborn inside each other to keep the balance of light and darkness. I don't think Sora will be capable of preventing any cosmic battles battles between light and darkness from happening in the future, but he might bring on a new age of keyblade wielders and light and dark will be brought to a more balanced state. It's really hard to say what might happen because Nomura is just going to come up with some crazy new plot device that completely changes how we think.

haha Oddly enough I had Korra in mind when asking the question~
That's a good point though, he may change the set up but not it's repetition later.