Political Correctness and Social Justice Warriors



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Tiamod

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Political Correctness:

"the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against."

Social Justice Warrior:

"Disparaging. a person who posts on mainstream websites and advocates left-wing orthodoxy, especially involving the treatment of ethnic, racial, gender, or gender-identity minorities. " (Dictonary.com definition)


Personally, I'm all for equal rights. But I think people in this generation have gone absolutely batshit. Instead of being reasonable, and up for a intelligent discussion, these individuals, for the most part, resort to name-calling and childlike temper tantrums til they get what they want (Kinda like modern feminism - but that's a different topic... actually... Is it really?) . It's sad. It minimizes the actual issues at hand. No longer can you breathe an opinion that differs from what's "politically correct" without being Satan incarnate. I mean, just the other day I was called a "homotransphobic bigot' because I said the whole transgender bathroom thing was pretty much a non-issue. (Simply because of the fact that the majority of transsexuals have been using whatever bathroom they wanted for years - I mean seriously, no one really cared til this whole fiasco popped up.)

What are your thoughts on these subjects?
 

BlackOsprey

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I value the ability to keep a conversation civil and interesting, which requires both some consideration with your words and a thick hide. To be honest, the two extremes are just different sides of the same coin. Switch up the wording, and there's little difference between what either a blunt a-hole or SJW ends up accomplishing: the conversation goes straight to hell as a shouting match of ad hominum attacks. Ugh.

What's worse is, like you pointed out, that sort of thing creates a huge diversion from the actual issue at hand. Rather than addressing the problem or maybe even gaining some insight on others' opinions, you just get bashed over the head with a huge wave of "us vs. them," making it less likely for anyone to gain any sort of understanding, let alone respect, for eachother.
 

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I'm just gonna leave this here, well worth anyone's time. This was also the origin of the Trigglypuff =3
 

Dandelion

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I'm tired, you guys.

I'm tired of the culture here of pretending that people caring about the wellbeing of other people means they have some sort of political agenda. I'm tired of people making fun of survivors of shitty things. I'm tired of people who don't realize what it's like to have these issues say how "for equal rights" they are when in the same breath think that this-

"Disparaging. a person who posts on mainstream websites and advocates left-wing orthodoxy, especially involving the treatment of ethnic, racial, gender, or gender-identity minorities."

Is an insult?
(Simply because of the fact that the majority of transsexuals have been using whatever bathroom they wanted for years - I mean seriously, no one really cared til this whole fiasco popped up.)

Please, people were protesting for gender neutral bathrooms for trans people way before you were born. I mean, come on, these aren't your issues, I don't expect you to understand or care, but god, get out of the fucking way.
 

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can't people just treat people like people and not be little bitches about it. thanks.
 

Audo

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Please, people were protesting for gender neutral bathrooms for trans people way before you were born. I mean, come on, these aren't your issues, I don't expect you to understand or care, but god, get out of the diddlying way.
Not to mention that trans folk, particularly trans women of colour, are perhaps the most marginalized and vulnerable population in North America. The life expectancy of a trans individual is 30. THIRTY. That is insane. That is a real crisis, and it is foolish and ignorant to pretend that the on-going slew of transphobic (and queerphobic) legislation cropping up all over the US is a "non-issue" when it directly harms the livelihood and safety, and contributes even further to the mistreatment, of our most vulnerable citizens.

But here are some quotes on the subject of PC/SJW because I, too, am tired:

“Changing the way we talk is not political correctness run amok. It reflects an admirable willingness to acknowledge others who once were barely visible to the dominant culture, and to recognize that something that may seem innocent to you may be painful to others.”— David Plotz

"White dudes have this thing where they believe your best friend in the world can have opposing political ideas. You’re supposed to be able to have healthy debate and disagreeing shouldn’t harm your friendship. That’s gross and stupid. Its really easy to say that when all your disagreements are theoretical. Its easy to say when none of the laws passed actually effect your life. Fighting with your best friend about corporate regulations, school charters, educational funding, abortion, health care, voting restrictions, drug laws, taxes and all sorts of stuff is cool and lively because none of it is going to actually leave you in a bad spot. Its different for the rest of us. I can’t be friends with you if you think I shouldn’t be allowed to vote. We can’t be friends if you think my friends shouldn’t have the ability to designate whatever gender they want and have that be legally recognized. We can’t be friends if you think I don’t deserve health care. Or if you think native children should be ripped away from their cultures and people. We can’t be friends if you think closing down health care clinics in an attempt to end safe legal abortions is a good thing. All these theoretical political ideas and lively debates effect real people, and I won’t be friends with someone who disagrees with me on them. Because disagreement means you don’t see me or a whole bunch of my friends and family as human beings worthy of rights and respect."-- blacksentai

“Learn to listen. This is especially difficult for members of dominant groups. If someone confronts you with your own behavior that supports privilege, step off the path of least resistance that encourages you to defend and deny. Don’t tell them they’re too sensitive or need a better sense of humor, and don’t try to explain away what you did as something else than what they’re telling you it was. Don’t say you didn’t mean it or that you were only kidding. Don’t tell them what a champion of justice you are or how hurt you feel because of what they’re telling you. Don’t make jokes or try to be cute or charming, since only privilege can lead someone to believe these are acceptable responses to something as serious as privilege and oppression. Listen to what’s being said. Take it seriously. Assume for the time being that it’s true, because given the power of paths of least resistance, it probably is. And then take responsibility to do something about it.”-- Allan G. Johnson

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality." — Desmond Tutu


If you’re a boy writer, it’s a simple rule: you’ve gotta get used to the fact that you suck at writing women and that the worst women writer can write a better man than the best male writer can write a good woman. And it’s just the minimum. Because the thing about the sort of heteronormative masculine privilege, whether it’s in Santo Domingo, or the United States, is you grow up your entire life being told that women aren’t human beings, and that women have no independent subjectivity. And because you grow up with this, it’s this huge surprise when you go to college and realize that, “Oh, women aren’t people who does my shit and diddlys me.”


And I think that this a huge challenge for boys, because they want to pretend they can write girls. Every time I’m teaching boys to write, I read their women to them, and I’m like, “Yo, you think this is good writing?” These motherdiddlyers attack each other over cliche lines but they won’t attack each other over these toxic representations of women that they have inherited… their sexist shorthand, they think that is observation. They think that their sexist distortions are insight. And if you’re in a writing program and you say to a guy that their characters are sexist, this guy, it’s like you said they diddlying love Hitler. They will fight tooth and nail because they want to preserve this really vicious sexism in the art because that is what they have been taught.


And I think the first step is to admit that you, because of your privilege, have a very distorted sense of women’s subjectivity. And without an enormous amount of assistance, you’re not even going to get a D. I think with male writers the most that you can hope for is a D with an occasional C thrown in. Where the average women writer, when she writes men, she gets a B right off the bat, because they spent their whole life being taught that men have a subjectivity. In fact, part of the whole feminism revolution was saying, “Me too, motherdiddlyers.” So women come with it built in because of the society.
It’s the same way when people write about race. If you didn’t grow up being a subaltern person in the United States, you might need help writing about race. Motherdiddlyers are like ‘I got a black boy friend,’ and their shit sounds like Klan Fiction 101.


The most toxic formulas in our cultures are not pass down in political practice, they’re pass down in mundane narratives. It’s our fiction where the toxic virus of sexism, racism, homophobia, where it passes from one generation to the next, and the average artist will kill you before they remove those poisons. And if you want to be a good artist, it means writing, really, about the world. And when you write cliches, whether they are sexist, racist, homophobic, classist, that is a diddlying cliche. And motherdiddlyers will kill you for their cliches about x, but they want their cliches about their race, class, queerness. They want it in there because they feel lost without it. So for me, this has always been the great challenge.


As a writer, if you’re really trying to write something new, you must figure out, with the help of a community, how can you shed these diddlying received formulas. They are received. You didn’t come up with them. And why we need fellow artists is because they help us stay on track. They tell you, “You know what? You’re a bit of a diddlying homophobe.” You can’t write about the world with these simplistic distortions. They are cliches. People know art, always, because they are uncomfortable. Art discomforts. The trangressiveness of art has to deal with confronting people with the real. And sexism is a way to avoid the real, avoiding the reality of women. Homophobia is to avoid the real, the reality of queerness. All these things are the way we hide from encountering the real. But art, art is just about that.”— Junot Diaz speaking at Word Up Bookshop, 2012



“Not ‘feeling offended’ does not mean the material itself was not offensive. The most effective propaganda goes unnoticed. That’s kind of how it works. Neither damage nor ignorance require intent.”
— Jesse Williams


“Disdain for “political correctness” is often positioned as a concern that some important truth is not being spoken for fear of offending someone. But that concern is nothing but smoke and mirrors. To invoke “political correctness” is really to be concerned about loss of power and privilege. It is about disappointment that some “ism” that was ingrained in our society, so much that citizens of privilege could express the bias through word and deed without fear of reprisal, has been shaken loose. Charging “political correctness” generally means this: “I am comfortable with my privilege. I don’t want to have to question it. I don’t want to have to think before I speak or act. I certainly don’t wish to inconvenience myself for the comfort of lesser people (whoever those people may be—women, people of color, people with disabilities, etc.)”— by Tami at whattamisaid.com
 
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Pinwheel

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I hate pretty much any SJWish approach to arguments or discussion because I feel it always sidetracks the actual meat of the discussion and gets too picky about word use and becomes emotionally reliant. I'm not one of those hardcore anti-SJWs who goes out of their way to offend people and be a dick, but I really don't care if somebody is offended by something I've said or my word choices. Being offended in a civil discussion really just boils down to somebody not liking what you've said about something, and that isn't a big deal. I also personally feel like a lot of specific issues people raise (if I may call them SJWs) are complete non-issues.
 

Orion

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bruh you could have at least been intellectually honest in stating what sjws actually are

they're characterised by an authoritarian streak, appeals to emotion over evidence, and a doubling-down on any narratives that are called into question

sjws are the people who adopt bullshit nounself pronouns, encourage hatred and fear of anything to do with whiteness, maleness and straightness, and more, and they don't really help anyone. they should be called out and insulted at every possible opportunity because they endanger the struggle to help those who legitimately face discrimination and oppression

activists are those people trying to actually make a difference in the world where change is necessary, this bathroom situation among such issues. they should be helped and supported wherever possible.

you'd do well to learn the difference between sjws and actual activists
 

ShardofTruth

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Well, as expected, this escalated quickly. Wanting equality before the law and wanting justice are apparently not the same things for everybody.
 

VoidGear.

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(Simply because of the fact that the majority of transsexuals have been using whatever bathroom they wanted for years - I mean seriously, no one really cared til this whole fiasco popped up.)
Ooooh did they? As far as I see it, most transsexuals use the bathroom of their "biologic" gender, if they want it or not - because seriously, if they didn't, shit would be going down like crazy.

The problem is that anyone has his own idea of what's "going too far".
First person says gay people are too much. Next person says he's being a homophobic asshole but then says that he himself thinks transsexuals are too much. Next person joins in screaming "OMG let anyone have any sexuality they like o0 But uuuugggh, a 50-year-old marrying a 20-year-old, THAT is too much".
It's a personal opinion which is okay. That doesn't change the fact that sometimes, it's better to say nothing than something rude.
 

Tartarus

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sjws are the people who adopt bullshit nounself pronouns, encourage hatred and fear of anything to do with whiteness, maleness and straightness, and more, and they don't really help anyone. they should be called out and insulted at every possible opportunity because they endanger the struggle to help those who legitimately face discrimination and oppression
Uh, how do "those people" endanger anyone? lol If what you're trying to say is that people won't pay attention to real discrimination because some people talk about things like the depiction of women on TV, for example, that's BS. Those same people wouldn't pay attention to "real" discrimination anyway.

"White dudes have this thing where they believe your best friend in the world can have opposing political ideas. You’re supposed to be able to have healthy debate and disagreeing shouldn’t harm your friendship. That’s gross and stupid. Its really easy to say that when all your disagreements are theoretical. Its easy to say when none of the laws passed actually effect your life. Fighting with your best friend about corporate regulations, school charters, educational funding, abortion, health care, voting restrictions, drug laws, taxes and all sorts of stuff is cool and lively because none of it is going to actually leave you in a bad spot. Its different for the rest of us. I can’t be friends with you if you think I shouldn’t be allowed to vote. We can’t be friends if you think my friends shouldn’t have the ability to designate whatever gender they want and have that be legally recognized. We can’t be friends if you think I don’t deserve health care. Or if you think native children should be ripped away from their cultures and people. We can’t be friends if you think closing down health care clinics in an attempt to end safe legal abortions is a good thing. All these theoretical political ideas and lively debates effect real people, and I won’t be friends with someone who disagrees with me on them. Because disagreement means you don’t see me or a whole bunch of my friends and family as human beings worthy of rights and respect."-- blacksentai
This is the best one. If you're not gay, female, etc., of course you're going to piss and moan when people talk about issues you don't give two shits about because you don't have to struggle with any of these issues. I find most people that use words like PC Police, SJWs, Feminazis, etc. are usually self-centered (and largely white, straight male--I know, I'm shocked, too). They're just as much a part of the problem.
 

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The problem is that anyone has his own idea of what's "going too far".
First person says gay people are too much. Next person says he's being a homophobic asshole but then says that he himself thinks transsexuals are too much. Next person joins in screaming "OMG let anyone have any sexuality they like o0 But uuuugggh, a 50-year-old marrying a 20-year-old, THAT is too much".
It's a personal opinion which is okay. That doesn't change the fact that sometimes, it's better to say nothing than something rude.
Very well said.
I actually had just recently an example for that during a discussion I overheard in a train when on my way to work where an old lady was complaining to her granddaughter/daughter about "people nowadays being such sissies and so thin-skinned they explode over the tiniest things and neglect the actual important big problems." and went on to rant about why she "should give a crap about some weird people who apparently feel the need to decide every day anew at the breakfast table which gender they want to be today when the economy and society in general is in decline? Back in her days they had to look how to get enough food to survive the day and no time for such stupid mental antics."
Needless to say the granddaughter/daughter was so baffled she couldn't even think of an appropriate response.

It's also somewhat peculiar that apparently many people in the "anti-Political-correctness"-camp feel the need to bitch and whine over topics that do not even concern their own personal lives and mental state, hence why it comes often over as so condescending and discriminating to both activists and the extreme "SJWs" alike.
 

Dandelion

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Uh, how do "those people" endanger anyone? lol If what you're trying to say is that people won't pay attention to real discrimination because some people talk about things like the depiction of women on TV, for example, that's BS. Those same people wouldn't pay attention to "real" discrimination anyway.
I agree. As someone who does face that oppression you say is legitimate (where the fuck do you draw that line anyway) I'm here to tell you that straight white dudes don't need any damn help in being feared or hated, you already are by every minority. Shit, ask girls the lengths they go through to avoid just male attention.

SJWs aren't an actual thing, they're a label people use when an activist crosses a line that makes them feel threatened. Trust me, your straight dude whiteness will never be a problem to you in your entire lifetime.
 

Chuman

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i just think its fucked up how the country's tryna tell trans people where they can shit

how much bathroom sex even goes on? where are the laws enforcing strict penalties for sneaking in a female for some head?

petty bullshit is gonna fuck us over in the long run and it always has
 

BlackOsprey

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Here's something I'm wondering: when you vilify a large group of people (typically white straight males), what exactly is that going to accomplish?

There're a lot of social justice issues out there, but a lot of them revolve around the word "equality." Oh, or "acceptance." I might just be too naive or stupid to understand, but somehow, I can't connect the dots between getting to a state of equality and mutual respect by deepening the rift and encouraging alienation. Attacking others leads to defensiveness. Is that the goal? Make straight white guys feel even more adamant that they're under attack and thus even more narrow-minded? 'Cause shouting at straight white males isn't gonna make them go away.

Someone care to explain how this is supposed to work? It's been confusing me for a while.
 

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Here's something I'm wondering: when you vilify a large group of people (typically white straight males), what exactly is that going to accomplish?
The subject was raised, and I responded. Being mildly disgruntled over a group of people who benefit from the problems we have isn't really the same as derailing those issues in the first place. So much of the frustration comes from people trying to convince oppressed people that they aren't being oppressed.

There're a lot of social justice issues out there, but a lot of them revolve around the word "equality." Oh, or "acceptance." I might just be too naive or stupid to understand, but somehow, I can't connect the dots between getting to a state of equality and mutual respect by deepening the rift and encouraging alienation. Attacking others leads to defensiveness. Is that the goal? Make straight white guys feel even more adamant that they're under attack and thus even more narrow-minded? 'Cause shouting at straight white males isn't gonna make them go away.
Not a word I said in this thread is going to make any of the entitled guys on this forum hate social justice or feminism anymore than they already did when they baited people into getting defensive about it in the first place. It's not my responsibility to care about their feelings when it comes to my own self-defense , especially when there are people who have said outright that they don't actually care about people being offended or hurt.

At the end of the day, I don't actually care about whether a bunch of strangers on the internet understand where I'm coming from, but there's no denying that this site is the main hub for all Kingdom Hearts things. KHI has also been clawing its way out of a very hateful mindset for some time, and I'd rather not have to anticipate some dude afraid of the word feminism dropping an exaggerating hate speech on activism just because we're talking about Aqua's nonsensical armor, or Kairi's lack of spotlight. I mean, I can deal with it, but no I'm not going to care about shouting at dudes who are proud of upsetting people and think empathy is weak or inferior or mutually exclusive to facts when the research and first-hand accounts and studies exist anyway.
 

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Trust me, your straight dude whiteness will never be a problem to you in your entire lifetime.
I'm here to tell you that straight white dudes don't need any damn help in being feared or hated, you already are by every minority. Shit, ask girls the lengths they go through to avoid just male attention.
I don't think I can follow. Do you think that being feared or hated for being a straight white dude isn't a problem for straight white dudes or is "straight dude whiteness" in itself some sort of mindset that automatically justifies prejudices (and worse) against it?
 

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I don't think I can follow. Do you think that being feared or hated for being a straight white dude isn't a problem for straight white dudes or is "straight dude whiteness" in itself some sort of mindset that automatically justifies prejudices (and worse) against it?
Yeah I have to agree with this. Being caucasian doesn't protect you from similar hate crimes minorities and LGBT people are victims of.
 

Dandelion

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Okay, when was the last time someone spray painted cracker on your house?

In any case: I'm not saying it's good to be hated, I'm also not saying that straight white dudes are exempt from being victims of anything, what I am saying is that it's incredibly unlikely, because you're not hated in an impressive way: you're hated because you're feared. It's like telling a mouse it's derailing its own life for hating a cat. The metaphor isn't great.
 
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