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Pocahontas In Future KH Games?



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Face My Fears

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You don't have to see or understand why it's offensive, but listen to those it offends, Native Americans. If there's a constant in US history, is the continuous and blatant exploitation of Native Americans. Disney wanted those woke bucks and dipped their fingers into a sensitive topic by it making historically inaccurate. And yes, you are completely right that they still market her, but don't think that people are ok with that.
I loved Pocahontas growing up, I thought it was a beautiful movie, but this movie whitewashes history to appeal a mass audience and I don't vibe with that.
I get that the FILM is problematic, but why can't Kingdom Hearts be an opportunity for Disney to fix things? I mean, for starters KH only ever has 1 female Disney party member in each game (KH1 - Ariel, KH2 - Mulan, KH3 - Rapunzel), so having Pocahontas as a party member would be great to add to the diversity of the party members (granted that there is another female Disney party member in the game as well). Next, there's only been one POC party member in all of KH - Aladdin. Why deny Pocahontas and Native Americans representation in a vastly popular video game just because the film's plot was problematic?

In my eyes, it's the plot of the film that is the issue. Kingdom Hearts can easily be a medium where the film's plot is dumped, but the character of Pocahontas is used better - a "do over" in a sense. If they just use Pocahontas, Meeko, Flit, and Grandmother Willow with an original plot set years before the film - what would be wrong with that? Or even if they don't have a world for Pocahontas, could she be a princess of heart and at least appear?
 

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Disney can fix things by apologizing and acknowledging what they did wrong, which was making the movie. Also don't use her at all, especially don't make profit of her. Pocahontas will still be a part of Disney's history, a testament to their legacy that no matter how much time passes they can still do evil through good intentions.

Also if they really wanted to fix things they can easily donate a pretty penny towards any reservation, especially now more than ever. Because adding her to a videogame will not fix anything.

EDIT: Maybe she means a lot to you, but try to imagine what she represents to a community that has been exploited throughout this nation's history. I mean just read anything about their history, it's so gruesome and cruel. Why keep tormenting them when our government keeps doing it?
 
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MrFranklin95

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As a POC, I just think it would leave a bad taste is a lot of people mouths, including myself given everything I know about it. Especially in the political climate we are in right now, I don't think Disney wants to risk it since it's very apparent the story of Pocahontas is way more f--ked up then most people realize, which is why a lot of people were pissed off about it at the time because the film Disney-fied a story that does not have happy ending for its main lead, a lot of which I won't discuss because all of it's just so... bad. It also presented the typical white savior narrative that I don't think any POC is fond of at all. Also, out of all the remakes that Disney has announced, Pochantas is not one of them.

It's pretty much like Disney putting in Song of the South in a KH game. That may seem extreme but you have to understand why Song of the South is as bad as it is and why people reacted the same way to Pochantas; even though at face value it seems harmless and Uncle Remus is presented as a very positive character, there were a lot of elements of the film that felt like they were rewriting history in a way that feels very insulting to the history of African-American in this country. It's pretty much the same with Pochantas and if anyone were to disagree with that, I'd assume they didn't really know much about Native American history and why Pochantas, even though it has a positive messenge of equality, is surprisingly insulting to that community.

Obviously this didn't stop Disney from promoting the films, which kind of shows that Disney really only panders to social issues when it suits them. Pochantas is still apart of the Disney Princess lineup, they shamelessly made a sequel (which if you know the story of Pocahontas, is even more f--ked up) and Song of South not only had one of the most famous rides in Disneyland but also they were selling copies of the film to countries on the downlow, meaning that they were still profiting off it because obviously can't promote it in America.

So clearly Disney doesn't really care since all they do is pander when it suits them. I mean, they made such a big deal out of Josh Gad being gay in Beauty and the Beast and all that happen was that he looked at a dude flirtly... sort of. Bravo Disney. You can make entire film about Elsa finding herself and feeling that part of her would never be accepted by others but god forbid they make her gay lol

Either way, yeah, KH should stay far from this franchise. It just isn't worth it and Disney is already on thin ice with this sort of stuff anyway.
 

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I get that the FILM is problematic, but why can't Kingdom Hearts be an opportunity for Disney to fix things? I mean, for starters KH only ever has 1 female Disney party member in each game (KH1 - Ariel, KH2 - Mulan, KH3 - Rapunzel), so having Pocahontas as a party member would be great to add to the diversity of the party members (granted that there is another female Disney party member in the game as well). Next, there's only been one POC party member in all of KH - Aladdin. Why deny Pocahontas and Native Americans representation in a vastly popular video game just because the film's plot was problematic?

In my eyes, it's the plot of the film that is the issue. Kingdom Hearts can easily be a medium where the film's plot is dumped, but the character of Pocahontas is used better - a "do over" in a sense. If they just use Pocahontas, Meeko, Flit, and Grandmother Willow with an original plot set years before the film - what would be wrong with that? Or even if they don't have a world for Pocahontas, could she be a princess of heart and at least appear?
There is no fixing it. The problem isn’t just the story but the entire character herself who was a real person who was mistreated and died tragically in real life.

Pocahontas only made it into WIR2 because she is still an official Disney Princess. They market her as far as her status in that line goes. That doesn’t make it okay but people accept it because Pocahontas as a character is still well-loved despite everything.

I know I loved Pocahontas. I had two posters on my wall of her, I went and saw the special theatrical release of the film at those pop-up IMAX theaters with the “If I Never Knew You” song that wasn’t officially released on any home release until the mid-2000s. I was her for Halloween as a child. I had all of the toys. I loved that film.

It’s problematic as hell, though. Throughout the films entire development, Native Americans protested against the film. People who thought they could reason with Disney reached out and tried to work on the project as cultural historians. Disney ignored all of it and didn’t consult anybody. A bunch of white men decided they knew what was best to depict the story of a historical figure.
 

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As a POC, I just think it would leave a bad taste is a lot of people mouths, including myself given everything I know about it. Especially in the political climate we are in right now, I don't think Disney wants to risk it since it's very apparent the story of Pocahontas is way more f--ked up then most people realize, which is why a lot of people were pissed off about it at the time because the film Disney-fied a story that does not have happy ending for its main lead, a lot of which I won't discuss because all of it's just so... bad. It also presented the typical white savior narrative that I don't think any POC is fond of at all. Also, out of all the remakes that Disney has announced, Pochantas is not one of them.

It's pretty much like Disney putting in Song of the South in a KH game. That may seem extreme but you have to understand why Song of the South is as bad as it is and why people reacted the same way to Pochantas; even though at face value it seems harmless and Uncle Remus is presented as a very positive character, there were a lot of elements of the film that felt like they were rewriting history in a way that feels very insulting to the history of African-American in this country. It's pretty much the same with Pochantas and if anyone were to disagree with that, I'd assume they didn't really know much about Native American history and why Pochantas, even though it has a positive messenge of equality, is surprisingly insulting to that community.

Obviously this didn't stop Disney from promoting the films, which kind of shows that Disney really only panders to social issues when it suits them. Pochantas is still apart of the Disney Princess lineup, they shamelessly made a sequel (which if you know the story of Pocahontas, is even more f--ked up) and Song of South not only had one of the most famous rides in Disneyland but also they were selling copies of the film to countries on the downlow, meaning that they were still profiting off it because obviously can't promote it in America.

So clearly Disney doesn't really care since all they do is pander when it suits them. I mean, they made such a big deal out of Josh Gad being gay in Beauty and the Beast and all that happen was that he looked at a dude flirtly... sort of. Bravo Disney. You can make entire film about Elsa finding herself and feeling that part of her would never be accepted by others but god forbid they make her gay lol

Either way, yeah, KH should stay far from this franchise. It just isn't worth it and Disney is already on thin ice with this sort of stuff anyway.
Great post. I understand that fans of the movie would enjoy to see it in KH. And at first glance it doesn't look super problematic with just the Disney movie, but once you dive into the real story of Pocahontas it would never work. I previously said if they used a Pocahontas world they should just use her and the animals. But upon further thinking about it, would that be any different from Splash Mountain, which is now being changed? It's still profiting off a sketchy movie whether they put John Smith in or not.

I know Pocahontas was in Ralph Breaks the Internet, but a lot of things have now changed since then. Truthfully I don't think this movie was ever going to appear as a world in Kingdom Hearts regardless. Don't know about about the original, but I would not be surprised if Pocahontas 2 got the Song of the South treatment...if it hasn't already.
 

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Unlikely as it seems, some sort of inclusion in KH isn't entirely impossible. The Disney machine really doesn't care about native people. Or humanity in general... I just looked it up and the Disney Store has a bunch of newly added pieces of Pocahontas merch up in their store, including mock-Powhatan jewelry so the brand is too valuable to them not to abandon or apologize for. I don't actually think Pocahontas in KH is gonna happen, but it's worth noting that Peter Pan has. There was even a totem pole Unversed.

I think Pocahontas, and specifically Colors of the Wind, was probably the visual inspiration for that Young Xehanort scene in The Pastoral Symphony, and also thematically for Ansem the Wise's speech to Riku on Destiny Island later in that game. I bet you Nomura likes the movie. It is a very beautiful production, and in a vacuum, would make for a gorgeous forest world. There should be more forest/nature worlds in general, though of course there are many other options. Frozen 2 seems especially likely, and covers similar spiritual thematic territory (with arguably similar problems, to a lesser extent). It also has the same production designer, so it would be very pretty at least.

I see Flit, and Meeko as the most likely elements to make it into KH, if anything were to. Maybe as Union Cross tokens. A surprise Grandmother Willow cameo, maybe in a surreal End of the World-like setting, would be a fitting JRPG magical tree moment, since they somehow haven't had one of those yet.
 

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Plus we could get Denahai as a boss, who is one of my favorite Disney antagonists. He could be cursed by Darkness due to his desire to avenge his brother and attract heartless.
I could very well see that happening, And it would likely be the first disney boss to use primitive weapons like spears and whalebone knifes. We had a party member use those in the form of Tarzan, but never on the opposing side.
 

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And yes, you are completely right that they still market her, but don't think that people are ok with that.
Well, that's really the ultimate point here, isn't it? What certain gamers think and what Disney or SE do have very little correlation with one another. (I've learned that the hard way with this series, on many other subjects...) I doubt there would be any meaningful "controversy" that would materialize if the property appeared in KH. I'm referring to the real world, not pockets of the Internet or Twitter.

It's pretty much like Disney putting in Song of the South in a KH game.
I'm sorry, but no it absolutely is not. While there are problems with Pocahontas, it doesn't glorify the denigration of Native Americans whatever you think about it the way that SOTS shows a Black person happy and content with his enslavement. Let's be real, that is also an offensive comparison. While the film had issues--the same kind you would find in Avatar or Dances With Wolves--it doesn't glorify what was done to Native Americans; the film was even made with consultation from Native Americans during its creation. That doesn't make the film less problematic, but it does make it enormously different from SOTS. You can criticize things while also recognizing the different weight they hold. Pocahontas and SOTS are not the same. Peter Pan is more offensive than Pocahontas is, imo, in its portrayal of both Native Americans and women.

Btw, for those holding up Moana as a better example--you do know that there has been huge controversy over Maui's portrayal in that movie right? And it began before the film was even released. And then there are controversies with Frozen II, TP&TF, Mulan, The Lion King, Fantasia, Dumbo, etc. And those are just on race. Nearly all the Disney princess films are controversial in regards to gender portrayal.
 
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MrFranklin95

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Well, that's really the ultimate point here, isn't it? What certain gamers think and what Disney or SE do have very little correlation with one another. (I've learned that the hard way with this series, on many other subjects...) I doubt there would be any meaningful "controversy" that would materialize if the property appeared in KH. I'm referring to the real world, not pockets of the Internet or Twitter.

I'm sorry, but no it absolutely is not. While there are problems with Pocahontas, it doesn't glorify the denigration of Native Americans whatever you think about it the way that SOTS shows a Black person happy and content with his enslavement. Let's be real, that is also an offensive comparison. While the film had issues--the same kind you would find in Avatar or Dances With Wolves--it doesn't glorify what was done to Native Americans; the film was even made with consultation from Native Americans during its creation. That doesn't make the film less problematic, but it does make it enormously different from SOTS. You can criticize things while also recognizing the different weight they hold. Pocahontas and SOTS are not the same. Peter Pan is more offensive than Pocahontas is, imo, in its portrayal of both Native Americans and women.

Btw, for those holding up Moana as a better example--you do know that there has been huge controversy over Maui's portrayal in that movie right? And it began before the film was even released. And then there are controversies with Frozen II, TP&TF, Mulan, The Lion King, Fantasia, Dumbo, etc. And those are just on race. Nearly all the Disney princess films are controversial in regards to gender portrayal.
It's not though... how is the entire story of Pochantas being twisted into this cliche, white savior, we can all just get altogether if we all stop fighting each other is not just as insulting to the history of Native Americans as Song of the South is to Black Americans like myself? I made the comparison because its Disney twisting real history to fit an agenda that makes white people feel better about themselves and not have to think about the mistreatment of Native Americans in this country that still goes on to this day, thinking it can or was solved in they it was in the film when its not that simple. As I said, both are kind of on the same boat regardless of if you think one is less offensive or not. That's still a pretty strawman argument that pretty much said "well, I mean, it's not as racist as it could've been, so it's okay it's just a slightly racist with poorly thought-out messenge" yes, even a positive messenge of equality can be poorly thought if you don't know the history of that racial group. It can make you look super ignorant and its something a lot of people don't understand when it comes presentations of minorities. I don't know if you are a minority yourself, so you may not have the same qualms. But that doesnt matter, because to the majority, and culturally, it's a problem.

If you know the story of Pochantas, then yes, despite its messenge of equality, the entire film is still pretty offensive because it's pretty much rewriting history the same way a typical Thanksgiving story does, which shows the level of depth Disney actually cared to go too. The typically White man and the Natives fought but eventually learn to get along and the white man have respected their land and culture since then, which isn't the history that should be taught because that isn't what happened. Not only is it incredibly cliche but it doesn't tell the real history of Native Americans relationship to the white man in America and how all of them pretty much got f--ked in so many ways. And then presented the conflict in the end as if both parties are in wrong, when the reality is not as simple as Disney is trying to make it. And btw, I'm pretty sure even the Natives they consulted weren't happy with the way the film turned out in the end and even if were, that doesn't excuse the film either. That's like saying that just because a black person feels systemic racism isn't as bad as everyone thinks, doesnt mean it isn't and just futher excuses mistreatment or poor representation.

If you want to a modern story that represented the suffering of Native Americans by the white man while also challenging the moral grey notion of continuing that same violence they inflicted on them to protect your people and heritage and what's left of it, play Red Dead Redemption 2. Because while it presents the Natives going after the American government as wrong (because violence begets violence), the game never makes them feel as if they are entirely in the wrong in doing so because you understand why people as innocence as Native Americans would be pushed to do those things because human beings can only take so much suffering for so long.


You can just say something is less offensive just because they made a few pandering, poorly written, low hanging fruit nods to equality but poor representation is just as bad ss no representation. Again, same thing with Song of the South but only reason people find that more problematic is because there is such a lack of care to Native American suffering that still continues to this day. And even then, it presents the exact same problem Disney has had with racial history for years. Its the twisting the history to make it seems like all this injustice to POC can simply be solved with typical Disney lesson of holding hands and singing kumbaya. Its insulting, no matter how more or less offensive you think it is.

It shouldn't exist and it shouldn't be promoted.

The fact that you don't think that taking the story of a little girl that was raped, taken advantage of, and eventually died in one of the most heartbreaking ways you can imagine because of the injustices and mistreatment of white people of that time and having that story twisted for years and years into this positive thing to make them look less bad and Disney still decided to make that story knowing how offensive it is to Native Americans or the fact that just because a select few were possibly okay with the story (which I find extremely hard to believe) means that it's all totally justified, pretty shows me your flawed mindset on the whole thing.

And speaking of Moana and all the rest you just mentioned, all try my best to make it short

Moana: yeah that was a problem and it should be addressed, even if the rest of film is pretty respectful to the culture, more then most Disney film so that's already a positive, though Maui is one aspect you can't overlook. So yeah, I'm all for that.

Peter Pan: yeah no, that's still a problem but only because of the way the Natives are designed besides the main girl (I'm blanking on her name) and "what makes the red man red" being a pretty offensive song that even Disney is smart enough not to promote (at least I hope don't but if they still are... yikes) But despite all that, I excuse it in KH because the things that made it problematic in that film are not in the game at all and it's pretty easy to do, which is why no one made a big deal out of it. The same can't be said for Pochantas because again, Pochantas as a character is problematic herself. It's just not the same thing.

Frozen: I honestly have no idea what you are talking about in this regard since Frozen is mostly based on a fictional, fantasy novel. Maybe because of the culture it was written from but I didnt see many people of that culture complaining about it.

Mulan: Again, I dont know where you are going with this since Mulan is fictional Chinese folklore and the film pretty much stays true to the story and its representation of Chinese culture of that time is pretty accurate.

Dumbo: I dont know exactly where you are going with this but as far as I know, Dumbo was only ever a summon in KH and that was about it. Dumbo as a character is not the problem with that film, it was crows themselves. All that was completely out of the remake; so Disney, despite still making a bland film, made the right call.

Fantasia: Again, I dont know why you are bringing up another racially offensive scene of Fantasia as if that makes the film of Pochanatas okay or justified. Again, its the same thing as Dumbo, the film itself isn't the problem, it was that scene and it was been taken out of the film since. So again, I dont know what point you are trying to make here.

The Lion King: ... what? Again... what? What was racially insensitive about the The Lion King at all? If anything, The Lion King is incredibly respectful to African culture. Why do you think the braodeay musical is widely praised? And even taking that out, The Lion King itself isn't offensive either and uses African music and art in a incredibly creative and respectful way. I mean... if you are talking the voice actors being white, then you are kind if just splitting hairs at that point since they're all lions anyway.

Disney Princress: I don't think anyone here is going to deny the misogyny of past Disney princess but like I said before, the characters themselves are not the problem, its the films and how it frames them. It's this weird mix they did back in the day of making the female characters likeable and represented pretty postively personality wise but since the film is still written by a man in the 20th century, it didn't stop them from putting them in situations where they have to be saved by a man or there whole plight revolving around a man. That is a problem but the reason why little girls still love them because if you take them out of the film they are not misogynistic at all and they're pretty great characters in their own right (except for Aurora. Shes as bland as dry almond milk), with Cinderella being one of my favorites if you really understand who her character is and why the remake is way more offensive to her character, which is pretty ironic. And even taking that out, Disney has gone to great lengths to improve the roles of female characters in their films. They are not always successful but they at least try and more often then not are successful at doing so. But also keep in mind, I am a man. So take that with what you will.

Again, I understand your mindset but I honestly thinkin it's pretty flawed and not presenting the bigger picture of it at all. Song of the South when you look at it at face value doesnt seem offensive because its not outright saying Black people were okay with everything that happened in history and even portrays the relationships between Uncle Remus and the white kids and their parents as pretty positive. They even have a few racist lines in the film that certain characters are against. Hell the entire messenge of the film is a messenge of equality. But the film language definately makes it seems that way, as if the suffering of African Americans was completely solved and we're all just happy go lucky and fee racism acts that happen are a rarity. It confuses itself with its messenge of supposed equality. And it's the same with Pochantas. It takes the plight of Native Americans relationship to the white man of America and makes it seems like the racial issue was solved or can solved this easy and the white man was completely respectful to their land and culture and just left.

So how are they both not committing the same flaws of twisting history to fit some psuedo narrative of equality that doesn't make any sense?

That's a legit question.
 
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Face My Fears

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Well, that's really the ultimate point here, isn't it? What certain gamers think and what Disney or SE do have very little correlation with one another. (I've learned that the hard way with this series, on many other subjects...) I doubt there would be any meaningful "controversy" that would materialize if the property appeared in KH. I'm referring to the real world, not pockets of the Internet or Twitter.

I'm sorry, but no it absolutely is not. While there are problems with Pocahontas, it doesn't glorify the denigration of Native Americans whatever you think about it the way that SOTS shows a Black person happy and content with his enslavement. Let's be real, that is also an offensive comparison. While the film had issues--the same kind you would find in Avatar or Dances With Wolves--it doesn't glorify what was done to Native Americans; the film was even made with consultation from Native Americans during its creation. That doesn't make the film less problematic, but it does make it enormously different from SOTS. You can criticize things while also recognizing the different weight they hold. Pocahontas and SOTS are not the same. Peter Pan is more offensive than Pocahontas is, imo, in its portrayal of both Native Americans and women.

Btw, for those holding up Moana as a better example--you do know that there has been huge controversy over Maui's portrayal in that movie right? And it began before the film was even released. And then there are controversies with Frozen II, TP&TF, Mulan, The Lion King, Fantasia, Dumbo, etc. And those are just on race. Nearly all the Disney princess films are controversial in regards to gender portrayal.
I mean I was thinking the same thing about other films with controversies. Disney has so many films that offended people or created some sort of controversy. Are all those other properties excused because they're fictional, but Pocahontas is essentially inspired by a real person? Not only that, but the Native American response to Pocahontas isn't as clear cut as the outright racist Song of the South. If Native Americans despised Pocahontas, then why did so many actually work on the project and get consulted on it?

I don't want to dismiss people's feelings about the film, but if Pocahontas being a character is so offensive and wrong, then why hasn't Disney pulled her from everything? She's still in the parks, still being referenced, still has merchandise. Why haven't people demanded that Pocahontas be removed from everything? Peter Pan was included in Kingdom Hearts, where it seemed like they would gloss over the offensive parts, but then go ahead and include reference to them in KHBbS (the tent area).

Honestly, I think it would be empowering to have Pocahontas be featured in Kingdom Hearts. Consult Native American leaders and ask them how she can be portrayed in a positive light with an informative story. Why deny representation in the game? The main reason I even thought of Pocahontas in KH is because I always wanted more female party members from Disney worlds and I always thought she would be an amazing one with wind magic. I didn't even know Pocahontas was deemed offensive until a few years ago when I mentioned I hoped the world would be in KH3.
 

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I'm seeing a lot of hesitation from the vast majority of everyone on this thread especially from posts from the likes of @Zettaflare, @Absent, @MrFranklin95, and especially @Oracle Spockanort on not wanting Pocahontas to appear in Kingdom Hearts and I don't blame most of you on your opinions, but I have to side with @Face My Fears to a degree.

As to my opinion on the film Pocahontas, I considered it to be one of my least favorite films from the Disney renaissance era for many different factors such as the characters not being interesting and literally the plot is just the same plot told before and after (e.g. Dancing with Wolves, Ferngully, Avatar).

I can agree from the majority of you from your previous posts on this thread that the real story of Pocahontas is sad and more heartbreaking than Disney's version of the character which is why the film has drawn controversy and criticism from Native Americans and Historians not in the level as Song of the South but you get the idea.

However, I have to disagree with the majority of you especially YOU @Oracle Spockanort to disregard her completely in the KH series. Personally, there are three routes/options they can take the film and its characters in the Kingdom Hearts series in my opinion:
  • Option 1 - Go the Halloween Town" route: The world of Halloween Town (The Nightmare Before Christmas) in Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II is one of the most interesting Disney worlds in the series as the stories in both games are unrelated to the original movie with the former taking place before the movie's events and the latter set after the events of Nightmare Before Christmas. They can follow the template of Halloween Town for the story of a potential Pocahontas world but it might face roadblocks on what conflict the world will have and how will it resonate to Sora's character development and the themes for that KH game.

  • Option 2 - Follow an original story set before or after the events of the movie: Similar to the Halloween Town route, the first KH game and most notably in KH3, has some of the Disney worlds had original storylines that are either connected to the plot of the game or set after/before the events' of their respective films as shown with the worlds based on Toy Story (Toy Box), Monster's Inc. (Monstropolis) and Big Hero 6 (San Fransokyo). While it would be the right option for Pocahontas represented as a world, when compared to Toy Box, Monstropolis and San Fransokyo which had a lot of input from the people who worked on these respective films, as said before like the first option there would be roadblocks on how they would handle the story, but it could just be a simple self-contained original story set before or after the events of the film (while ignoring the events of Journey to the New World) with just only Pocahontas her animal Friends (Meeko, Flit, and Percy) and Grandmother Willow and the conflict being either the Heartless or one of the Foretellers causing some sort of trouble in the world just like they did it with the stories of Toy Box and San Fransokyo.

  • Option 3 - Have Pocahontas, her animal friends (Meeko and Flit), and Grandmother Willow in some shape or form outside of their homeworld: The last option is to have Pocahontas appear only as a summon be it a physical character (similar to KH2 summons) or as an elemental link summon (similar to KH3's summons) and as everyone mentioned they can have Meeko and Flit as Tokens or badges while Grandmother Willow can follow the same route as Merlin (another Disney character who we have yet to visit his original homeworld) and be a guide to Sora and Kairi.
Agree to Disagree with the options I put down, but I would rather if Pocahontas is implemented in some form in the Kingdom Hearts series instead of just ignoring her completely and jump into a world based on Moana and/or Brave and eventually later Wreck-It Raph (following the events of Ralph Breaks the Internet) where Pocahontas appears with the other Disney Heroines, but ONLY Sora recognized all the heroines and not know her. Besides, at least they still use Pocahontas in the Disney princess material.
 
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Face My Fears

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I'm seeing a lot of hesitation from the vast majority of everyone on this thread especially from posts from the likes of @Zettaflare, @Absent, @MrFranklin95, and especially @Oracle Spockanort on not wanting Pocahontas to appear in Kingdom Hearts and I don't blame most of you on your opinions, but I have to side with @Face My Fears to a degree.

As to my opinion on the film Pocahontas, I considered it to be one of my least favorite films from the Disney renaissance era for many different factors such as the characters not being interesting and literally the plot is just the same plot told before and after (e.g. Dancing with Wolves, Ferngully, Avatar).

I can agree from the majority of you from your previous posts on this thread that the real story of Pocahontas is sad and more heartbreaking than Disney's version of the character which is why the film has drawn controversy and criticism from Native Americans and Historians not in the level as Song of the South but you get the idea.

However, have to disagree with most of you including you @Oracle Spockanort to disregard her completely in the KH series. Personally, there are three routes/options they can take the film and its characters in Kingdom Hearts in my opinion:
  • Option 1 - Go the Halloween Town" route: The world of Halloween Town (The Nightmare Before Christmas) in Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II is one of the most interesting Disney worlds in the series as the stories in both games are unrelated to the original movie with the former taking place before the movie's events and the latter set after the events of Nightmare Before Christmas. They can follow the template of Halloween Town for the story of a potential Pocahontas world but it might face roadblocks on what conflict the world will have and how will it resonate to Sora's character development and the themes for that KH game.

  • Option 2 - Follow an original story set before or after the events of the movie: Similar to the Halloween Town route, the first KH game and most notably in KH3, has some of the Disney worlds had original storylines that are either connected to the plot of the game or set after/before the events' of their respective films as shown with the worlds based on Toy Story (Toy Box), Monster's Inc. (Monstropolis) and Big Hero 6 (San Fransokyo). While it would be the right option for Pocahontas represented as a world, when compared to Toy Box, Monstropolis and San Fransokyo which had a lot of input from the people who worked on these respective films, as said before like the first option there would be roadblocks on how they would handle the story, but it could just be a simple self-contained original story set after the events of the film (while ignoring the events of Journey to the New World) with just Pocahontas her animal Friends (Meeko, Flit and Percy) and Grandmother Willow just like they did it with Toy Box and San Fransokyo.

  • Option 3 - Have Pocahontas, her animal friends (Meeko and Flit), and Grandmother Willow in some shape or form outside of their homeworld: The last option is to have Pocahontas appear only as a summon be it a physical character (similar to KH2 summons) or as an elemental link summon (similar to KH3's summons) and as everyone mentioned they can have Meeko and Flit as Tokens or badges while Grandmother Willow can follow the same route as Merlin (another Disney character who we have yet to visit his homeworld) and be a guide to Sora and Kairi.
Agree to Disagree with the options I put down, but I would rather if Pocahontas be implemented in some form in Kingdom Hearts instead of just ignoring her completely and jump into a world based on Moana and/or Brave and eventually later Wreck-It Raph (following the events of Ralph Breaks the Internet) where Pocahontas appears with the other Disney Heroines. Besides, at least they still use Pocahontas in the Disney princess material.
I would love an original story for the world WAY BEFORE the events of the film. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I would use the new "reconstructed worlds" plot elements as the basis for the world. It can be called "The New World" and be a world that Sora visits that was just literally reconstructed, even have Chip and Dale mention that it's a strange energy on the map, make it something special. Then the story of the world would be whoever is the villain visiting it to understand the nature of darkness in a newly reconstructed world. Pocahontas' understanding of nature can show the light side of things in the world.

If they won't do a world, I can see Pocahontas being an elemental summon for wind. I think there can be really beautiful wind animations for her attacks and they can even do a battle version of "Colours of the Wind" when you summon her. Or maybe Grandmother Willow can appear in a forest in an original world - maybe Twilight Town? Although it'd be funny that everyone missed a giant talking tree after all these years lol.
 

DizneyXBirds95

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I would love an original story for the world WAY BEFORE the events of the film. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I would use the new "reconstructed worlds" plot elements as the basis for the world. It can be called "The New World" and be a world that Sora visits that was just literally reconstructed, even have Chip and Dale mention that it's a strange energy on the map, make it something special. Then the story of the world would be whoever is the villain visiting it to understand the nature of darkness in a newly reconstructed world. Pocahontas' understanding of nature can show the light side of things in the world.

If they won't do a world, I can see Pocahontas being an elemental summon for wind. I think there can be really beautiful wind animations for her attacks and they can even do a battle version of "Colours of the Wind" when you summon her. Or maybe Grandmother Willow can appear in a forest in an original world - maybe Twilight Town? Although it'd be funny that everyone missed a giant talking tree after all these years lol.
Actually having the original story for the Pocahontas world be set before the events of the movie isn't a bad idea and one I wouldn't rule out, as you said it yourself it could follow the "reconstructed worlds" plot element for the basis of the world.
 

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There is no way to do a pre or post film story with Pocahontas because, again, the problem isn't the story but the fact that it is a bastardization of a historical figure whose history has been white-washed throughout time and modern misconceptions are definitely in part to Disney's depiction of Pocahontas. Pocahontas lived a tragic life and died a tragic death. John Smith was an adult and Pocahontas was a young girl and he wrote awful lies about his interactions with the Powhatans.

They can get away with a summon. Anything else and it'd just be disgusting.
 

Face My Fears

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There is no way to do a pre or post film story with Pocahontas because, again, the problem isn't the story but the fact that it is a bastardization of a historical figure whose history has been white-washed throughout time and modern misconceptions are definitely in part to Disney's depiction of Pocahontas. Pocahontas lived a tragic life and died a tragic death. John Smith was an adult and Pocahontas was a young girl and he wrote awful lies about his interactions with the Powhatans.

They can get away with a summon. Anything else and it'd just be disgusting.
This will probably open a can of worms, but I have a question.

If there can be so many media portrayals of someone like Hitler in comical roles - intended to make fun of Hitler and present him in a negative light - why can't there be media portrayals of historical figures that suffered tragedy in a positive light? It's not like Disney stated that Pocahontas was an animated documentary, it's based on/inspired by the real Pocahontas. The film "The Greatest Showman" took PT Barnum, who ran minstrel shows, and made a positive story of diversity inspired by the actual person's life. Unlike "Song of the South" which is unanimously agreed upon to be racist and offensive and shouldn't exist, there isn't a unanimous opinion by Native Americans on "Pocahontas". Some like it, some are offended. Same with "The Greatest Showman", some black people love it, others not so much.

Circling back to the topic of this thread, I suppose it would be easier for Kingdom Hearts to ignore Pocahontas altogether... but should it? I never even knew about the film "Pocahontas" being offensive until I mentioned years ago before KH3 that I hoped it would be in the game. Even after I discovered the negative reception to the film, I viewed the film as a positive message - in a sense, what should have happened when the English arrived in America and what we can learn from that horrible, historical fact to not make that same mistake again as people. I know people will think it's revising history, but how can it be revising history when we can easily Google Pocahontas and find the true story that will always - no matter what media is released related to Pocahontas - be factual and the truth. No TV show or movie can revise Pocahontas' history.
 

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This will probably open a can of worms, but I have a question.

If there can be so many media portrayals of someone like Hitler in comical roles - intended to make fun of Hitler and present him in a negative light - why can't there be media portrayals of historical figures that suffered tragedy in a positive light? It's not like Disney stated that Pocahontas was an animated documentary, it's based on/inspired by the real Pocahontas. The film "The Greatest Showman" took PT Barnum, who ran minstrel shows, and made a positive story of diversity inspired by the actual person's life. Unlike "Song of the South" which is unanimously agreed upon to be racist and offensive and shouldn't exist, there isn't a unanimous opinion by Native Americans on "Pocahontas". Some like it, some are offended. Same with "The Greatest Showman", some black people love it, others not so much.

Circling back to the topic of this thread, I suppose it would be easier for Kingdom Hearts to ignore Pocahontas altogether... but should it? I never even knew about the film "Pocahontas" being offensive until I mentioned years ago before KH3 that I hoped it would be in the game. Even after I discovered the negative reception to the film, I viewed the film as a positive message - in a sense, what should have happened when the English arrived in America and what we can learn from that horrible, historical fact to not make that same mistake again as people. I know people will think it's revising history, but how can it be revising history when we can easily Google Pocahontas and find the true story that will always - no matter what media is released related to Pocahontas - be factual and the truth. No TV show or movie can revise Pocahontas' history.
Because one should be shown the least amount of respect possible and made into a mockery while the other should be highly respected and given the true recognition it deserves.

We get taught about WWII and Hitler (mostly) without his history being sanitized (though with the state of the world right now, we have certain right-wing groups who wish to depict Hitler in a positive light which is disgusting as well), whereas Pocahontas' history is rarely taught in American history and when you generally ask people about it, they will usually mention the Disney film as their first exposure to Pocahontas.

We aren't comparing apples to apples here.
 

Face My Fears

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Because one should be shown the least amount of respect possible and made into a mockery while the other should be highly respected and given the true recognition it deserves.

We get taught about WWII and Hitler (mostly) without his history being sanitized (though with the state of the world right now, we have certain right-wing groups who wish to depict Hitler in a positive light which is disgusting as well), whereas Pocahontas' history is rarely taught in American history and when you generally ask people about it, they will usually mention the Disney film as their first exposure to Pocahontas.

We aren't comparing apples to apples here.
I completely agree with you.

Which is why I don't think it would be an issue using Pocahontas in KH BEFORE the events of the film or even mentioning the film's plot. The tragedy of Pocahontas' life came from the colonists arriving in America, before that she was the daughter of the chief and living life normally. I think having her represented as a fighter for good, let alone representing Native Americans in a popular video game series, would count as highly respecting her. The whitewashing stems from the plot of the Disney film which encroaches on history and erases/doesn't explain the true events - which I understand why people are offended by that. But what is offensive about featuring Pocahontas disconnected from those events and BEFORE those events happened? Is her value as a historical figure only dependent on her suffering by the colonists? Why can't her life BEFORE the tragedy and suffering be explored? The only change that would come from Pocahontas appearing in KH before the events of the film would be her age being different than historically recorded.
 

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In all honesty having Pocahontas in any fashion in a KH game would be both disrespectful and cringe worthy. She was a real life person instead of being from a movie based around fantasy or myths or fairy tales. Sure, Moana has had its fair share of controversy for its portrayal of Maui. But Pocahontas literally took the history of a young girl, made her older and sexier, and tried to romantically pair her with her kidnapper who wrote his own stories glorifying his "heroics."

Kingdom Hearts,and especially Disney should not touch historical figures, if they are going to sanitize what they did to the story of a young native american girl taken from her home and forcibly converted before dying tragically young.
 
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