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Other then The voice actors, Xehanort character truly died before kh3 and here is why



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Keyblade07

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Xehanort character was ruined in (my opinion) kh3, this guy have always been one step ahead in planing and can control time and many other OP magic, like that one time he destroyed TAV bbs Trio with one hand behind his back, but the problem here he wasn’t the smart old coat we knew back in khbbs and kh3D,

1) he let his guard down after getting kingdom hearts and the X blade, like why? Why would you turn your back on 9 people that can wield the keyblade? That’s not a smart move

2) this guy was said to be the strongest keyblade master in history (yes yes I’m aware his old age effects him plus the old generic Good always beats evil cause the Good guy has strong heart) but even after getting kingdom hearts and the X-blade he still loses to Young kid (with less experience then him) and Donald and Goofy... why? He should be unstoppable and at least have all the warriors of light gang up on him that would make more sense

3) why Xehanort changed his Goal all of a sudden? Just like riku he uses both light and darkness in balance (even tho He rely on darkness more) but now he wants to eradicate the darkness? What? But why? balance is the only way there can be peace and suddenly he wants to destroy the darkness?

4) the guy is always one step ahead so why does it feel like he stopped thinking? His mind (other then his power) was the most dangerous thing about him so why suddenly his getting outsmarted by bunch of kids when this guy been planing for 13 years for back up plans and yet in kh3 just like that he gave up

This is all my opinion I just didn’t like how they handled xehanort here but eh guess we can’t have everything, overall I can cope up with it.
 

AR829038

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Xehanort character was ruined in (my opinion) kh3, this guy have always been one step ahead in planing and can control time and many other OP magic, like that one time he destroyed TAV bbs Trio with one hand behind his back, but the problem here he wasn’t the smart old coat we knew back in khbbs and kh3D,

1) he let his guard down after getting kingdom hearts and the X blade, like why? Why would you turn your back on 9 people that can wield the keyblade? That’s not a smart move

2) this guy was said to be the strongest keyblade master in history (yes yes I’m aware his old age effects him plus the old generic Good always beats evil cause the Good guy has strong heart) but even after getting kingdom hearts and the X-blade he still loses to Young kid (with less experience then him) and Donald and Goofy... why? He should be unstoppable and at least have all the warriors of light gang up on him that would make more sense

3) why Xehanort changed his Goal all of a sudden? Just like riku he uses both light and darkness in balance (even tho He rely on darkness more) but now he wants to eradicate the darkness? What? But why? balance is the only way there can be peace and suddenly he wants to destroy the darkness?

4) the guy is always one step ahead so why does it feel like he stopped thinking? His mind (other then his power) was the most dangerous thing about him so why suddenly his getting outsmarted by bunch of kids when this guy been planing for 13 years for back up plans and yet in kh3 just like that he gave up

This is all my opinion I just didn’t like how they handled xehanort here but eh guess we can’t have everything, overall I can cope up with it.
I don't think KH3 ruined Xehanort. He's always been this way; it's just you're only now seeing the flaws in his writing for the first time.
Xehanort is the archetypical genius-who's-supposed-to-be-way-smarter-than-the-person-writing-him. Xehanort is a constant case of tell-don't-show when it comes to his supposed tactical brilliance. Nomura always has characters like Yen Sid and so on TELL us how smart he is, and claim how he planned twenty different schemes decades in the making, but in actuality, Xehanort doesn't actually exhibit that much of an intellect. His entire plan in BBS, though partly foiled by TAV, was doomed from the start because apparently he had no idea how to actually forge the X-Blade. But in DDD, it's revealed he actually DID know how to do it the right way, but was just too impatient and wanted to get it done using only Ventus and Vanitas. This goes completely counter to the idea of him being an infinitely patient forethinker with long-term planning capabilities. Yet, ironically, it fits in perfectly with the idea of him blundering at the finish line in KH3 with allowing the Guardians to get the better of him—arrogance, hubris, and impatience.
And as for his supposed mastery of the Keyblade—I don't doubt that in his prime, he was a force to be reckoned with (No Heart serves as probably the only example of what he was like in his adult years, and I found him to be the most troublesome boss in the series)—but frankly, his technique with the Keyblade in combat was nothing special either in BBS or KH3. In terms of wielding the X-Blade, I personally found BBS Vanitas more of a threat with that thing than Xehanort was. You could chalk it up to old age (who could be expected to still be a fighter at age 80 for pete's sake?), but nonetheless, all evidence points to both Xehanort's skills and intellect being at best highly overrated, or at worst patched over with bad writing excuses and/or exposition.
As for the change in goals, I've made several posts about this before. I'm not entirely certain that Xehanort DID change his ultimate goal, I just think bad translation and insufficient storytelling have left us with a lot of gaps on how A connects with B. It's clear to me that Nomura wanted Xehanort to be more prominent in this series, and he had an entire story about him that he never got the opportunity to tell, likely due to all the time that the series is obligated to spend focusing on the Disney properties. I think that Xehanort's mindset is similar to that of Thanos or any number of real-life tyrants who want to use the thing they claim to despise as a means of annihilating that very thing's influence from the world. Thanos, for instance, wants to end suffering, but decides to cause suffering by killing half the universe for that very end. It's a contradiction, but it's a contradiction that's actually very true to the inner logic of most despots both in fiction and in real life. So, while the logic may not connect to us, it does fit the mindset of a tyrant to a T, and that fits in perfectly with Xehanort's character. But the gap is nevertheless hard to ignore, and I think Nomura is going to try and use ReMIND as a vehicle to help connect those dots a little better, because he seems interested in finally delving into Xehanort's story more.
 

Keyblade07

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I don't think KH3 ruined Xehanort. He's always been this way; it's just you're only now seeing the flaws in his writing for the first time.
Xehanort is the archetypical genius-who's-supposed-to-be-way-smarter-than-the-person-writing-him. Xehanort is a constant case of tell-don't-show when it comes to his supposed tactical brilliance. Nomura always has characters like Yen Sid and so on TELL us how smart he is, and claim how he planned twenty different schemes decades in the making, but in actuality, Xehanort doesn't actually exhibit that much of an intellect. His entire plan in BBS, though partly foiled by TAV, was doomed from the start because apparently he had no idea how to actually forge the X-Blade. But in DDD, it's revealed he actually DID know how to do it the right way, but was just too impatient and wanted to get it done using only Ventus and Vanitas. This goes completely counter to the idea of him being an infinitely patient forethinker with long-term planning capabilities. Yet, ironically, it fits in perfectly with the idea of him blundering at the finish line in KH3 with allowing the Guardians to get the better of him—arrogance, hubris, and impatience.
And as for his supposed mastery of the Keyblade—I don't doubt that in his prime, he was a force to be reckoned with (No Heart serves as probably the only example of what he was like in his adult years, and I found him to be the most troublesome boss in the series)—but frankly, his technique with the Keyblade in combat was nothing special either in BBS or KH3. In terms of wielding the X-Blade, I personally found BBS Vanitas more of a threat with that thing than Xehanort was. You could chalk it up to old age (who could be expected to still be a fighter at age 80 for pete's sake?), but nonetheless, all evidence points to both Xehanort's skills and intellect being at best highly overrated, or at worst patched over with bad writing excuses and/or exposition.
As for the change in goals, I've made several posts about this before. I'm not entirely certain that Xehanort DID change his ultimate goal, I just think bad translation and insufficient storytelling have left us with a lot of gaps on how A connects with B. It's clear to me that Nomura wanted Xehanort to be more prominent in this series, and he had an entire story about him that he never got the opportunity to tell, likely due to all the time that the series is obligated to spend focusing on the Disney properties. I think that Xehanort's mindset is similar to that of Thanos or any number of real-life tyrants who want to use the thing they claim to despise as a means of annihilating that very thing's influence from the world. Thanos, for instance, wants to end suffering, but decides to cause suffering by killing half the universe for that very end. It's a contradiction, but it's a contradiction that's actually very true to the inner logic of most despots both in fiction and in real life. So, while the logic may not connect to us, it does fit the mindset of a tyrant to a T, and that fits in perfectly with Xehanort's character. But the gap is nevertheless hard to ignore, and I think Nomura is going to try and use ReMIND as a vehicle to help connect those dots a little better, because he seems interested in finally delving into Xehanort's story more.
No not really everyone has flaws even xehanort who failed his plan many times I’m just not liking how easy we beat him plus his the type to always one step ahead and have back up clan and think of every eventuality but kh3 didn’t give the impression he was one step ahead anymore and feels like relying on his luck now but I see where you’re coming from but overall this all just my opinion not a fact.
 
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Absent

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What ruined him is the lack of proper consequences and how Nomura and the cast, overlooked everything he did.
His intentions no matter how just or poetic, still brought so much pain and ruin. The lack of repercussions in the final installment is what ruined him.
 

Tartarus

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I've never been crazy about most KH villains anyway, even before Xehanort was unveiled in BbS. That said, I was surprised by how little Master Xehanort was even in KH3--and how little he got to talk. I know the original voice actors passed, another reason KH3 shouldn't have taken so long, but even so, they should have cut their losses and wrote him like nothing had changed. The fact that he was so quiet in KH3 was just weird considering he never shuts up in any other game.

But, as has been mentioned before, the original content / characters getting the shaft was an unfortunate surprise of KH3. At least we got the old SDG magic and Larxene got some great quips, but Riku, Aqua, Namine, Roxas, Lea, even Xehanort got very little screentime to make any impression. I know others are reading that and thinking "What about Kairi???," but her screentime in KH3 isn't noticeably different from any other game she's in. *shrug*
 
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SweetYetSalty

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When it comes to Xehanort I wish they just stayed with his plot from BBS. At least in BBS and DDD he was interesting enough. I'm not a fan of what they did with the character in KH3, especially since he kills Kairi right before the finale and he doesn't even address it as he's about to ascend with Eraqus to the great heart in the sky or whatever.
 

darknessofheart

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I think the problem with Xehanort's character in KH3 for me personally was that Nomura literally waited until the character's final scene to show his other intentions for his actions. The reports in BBS gave us a glimpse of this, but everything else we read and seen this guy, and his various incarnations, do was just pure horror. I mean in KH3 alone, the reports confirm his experiments literally drove people insane and were the source of the wailing moans Isa and Lea heard in Radiant Garden. It's even implied children were among the victims of those experiments.

There is no question that Xehanort deserved to die and he was indeed killed by Sora, but I do have to agree with the notion that Xehanort simply attempting to justify his actions during his last breaths was very abrupt. I don't want Nomura to romanticize everything Xehanort did, so I hope this character's arc is closed for good after the DLC. He committed horrible acts and died for and because of them; that's good enough for me. Leave him dead, please. I don't trust Nomura enough as a writer to handle Xehanort's backstory for full-fledged games. I am even somewhat cautious about what will be established in the DLC with regard to his character.

With the character of Xehanort, we went from a fallen ruler obsessed with darkness to a traitorous apprentice who stole the name of the actual ruler (the name stealing is still not explained), to a keyblade master possessing the body of another wielder. None of it planned out. Nomura just loves retcon after retcon. Xigbar is another example; Nomura just thought the voice actor sounded like he was hiding something. Even the title of "ReMind" was born from Nomura getting emails; someone please stop this man lol. Rant over.
 
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AR829038

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I think the problem with Xehanort's character in KH3 for me personally was that Nomura literally waited until the character's final scene to show his other intentions for his actions. The reports in BBS gave us a glimpse of this, but everything else we read and seen this guy, and his various incarnations, do was just pure horror. I mean in KH3 alone, the reports confirm his experiments literally drove people insane and were the source of the wailing moans Isa and Lea heard in Radiant Garden. It's even implied children were among the victims of those experiments.

There is no question that Xehanort deserved to die and he was indeed killed by Sora, but I do have to agree with the notion that Xehanort simply attempting to justify his actions during his last breaths was very abrupt. I don't want Nomura to romanticize everything Xehanort did, so I hope this character's arc is closed for good after the DLC. He committed horrible acts and died for and because of them; that's good enough for me. Leave him dead, please. I don't trust Nomura enough as a writer to handle Xehanort's backstory for full-fledged games. I am even somewhat cautious about what will be established in the DLC with regard to his character.

With the character of Xehanort, we went from a fallen ruler obsessed with darkness to a traitorous apprentice who stole the name of the actual ruler (the name stealing is still not explained), to a keyblade master possessing the body of another wielder. None of it planned out. Nomura just loves retcon after retcon. Xigbar is another example; Nomura just thought the voice actor sounded like he was hiding something. Even the title of "ReMind" was born from Nomura getting emails; someone please stop this man lol. Rant over.
I agree. I tend to view KH3 Xehanort in a somewhat kinder light because I can see the general idea that Nomura was going for. He just didn't do an adequate job in getting us to understand him. It reminds me of the Star Wars prequels—most reasonable people agree they were TERRIBLE movies, but a lot of people who nonetheless enjoy them do so for the general vision and idea that George Lucas was going for, even if he didn't have the talent as a storyteller to deliver that vision well.
 

OneDandelion

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What ruined him is the lack of proper consequences and how Nomura and the cast, overlooked everything he did.
His intentions no matter how just or poetic, still brought so much pain and ruin. The lack of repercussions in the final installment is what ruined him.
Japanese do not have the same concept of "hell" and "consequences" as the west does and good and evil is not viewed as something that is necessarily so black and white. Japan is highly influenced by Bushido and part of that involves respecting and forgiving the dead.

In addition to that, Xehanort was not necessarily wrong in what he was doing. The master of masters even agrees with him insofar as it does not matter when the keyblade war happens, all that matters is what comes after. What he was doing he was doing for the greater good - and in Japan according with Bushido the effort he put into his goals is worthy of respect despite the casualties along the way.

I don't really expect most people from the west to be able to grasp this because the crime - punishment paradigm of Christianity is highly embedded with our culture. But if you look into Bushido and some of the underlying philosophies of Japan you will find there are valid explanations behind the way villains are redeemed in games and anime that are more nuanced than how the west reduces them down to mere shounen tropes.
 

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Japanese do not have the same concept of "hell" and "consequences" as the west does and good and evil is not viewed as something that is necessarily so black and white. Japan is highly influenced by Bushido and part of that involves respecting and forgiving the dead.

In addition to that, Xehanort was not necessarily wrong in what he was doing. The master of masters even agrees with him insofar as it does not matter when the keyblade war happens, all that matters is what comes after. What he was doing he was doing for the greater good - and in Japan according with Bushido the effort he put into his goals is worthy of respect despite the casualties along the way.

I don't really expect most people from the west to be able to grasp this because the crime - punishment paradigm of Christianity is highly embedded with our culture. But if you look into Bushido and some of the underlying philosophies of Japan you will find there are valid explanations behind the way villains are redeemed in games and anime that are more nuanced than how the west reduces them down to mere shounen tropes.
I refuse to let that slide for the same series that gave us a Riku bettering himself and Ansem the Wise atoning for his actions.
 

OneDandelion

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I refuse to let that slide for the same series that gave us a Riku bettering himself and Ansem the Wise atoning for his actions.
Im not exactly sure about what scenes you're referring to. As far as I can remember Riku was a good kid that was manipulated and Ansem researched the darkness to protect Radiant Garden. Are you implying that either of them were ever truly villains that were undeserving of redemption?
 

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This is off-topic, but stop spamming new threads, man.
It's fine, they get people talking which is encouraged so long as the topic has actual worth.

However, any duplicate threads of ongoing discussions will be locked, and if it wasn't already clear to OP, saying "it's just my opinion" after making bold or incorrect claims is not going to stop anyone from criticizing so there's no need to keep repeating it lol
 

darknessofheart

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Japanese do not have the same concept of "hell" and "consequences" as the west does and good and evil is not viewed as something that is necessarily so black and white. Japan is highly influenced by Bushido and part of that involves respecting and forgiving the dead.

In addition to that, Xehanort was not necessarily wrong in what he was doing. The master of masters even agrees with him insofar as it does not matter when the keyblade war happens, all that matters is what comes after. What he was doing he was doing for the greater good - and in Japan according with Bushido the effort he put into his goals is worthy of respect despite the casualties along the way.

I don't really expect most people from the west to be able to grasp this because the crime - punishment paradigm of Christianity is highly embedded with our culture. But if you look into Bushido and some of the underlying philosophies of Japan you will find there are valid explanations behind the way villains are redeemed in games and anime that are more nuanced than how the west reduces them down to mere shounen tropes.
I agree with this. The only thing I would add is that Xehanort himself wasn't really redeemed. Not saying you were saying that, but there are plenty of fans who think that scene acted as his redemption or was meant to be. For me, it was just Xehanort realizing he finally lost and was surrendering now that he was dying, outnumbered, and Kingdom Hearts was closing.

I also think that since many of the games before KH3 had that agonizing final villain death (Ansem in KH1, Marluxia in CoM, and Xemnas in KH2), Xehanort's death was a bit uncharted territory that many fans were not expecting.
 
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Tartarus

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Riku was definitely a villain in KH1. He destroyed Destiny Islands for the sake of power / personal dreams, kidnapped Jasmine, nearly got Pinocchio killed just to mess with Sora and then planned to take him to use as an experiment to save Kairi, and then he ended on all that by trying to kill Sora in his effort to help Maleficent (and Xehanort's Heartless) to destroy the universe.

Ansem the Wise was also a villain, to a much lesser degree. He was overpowered with a desire for revenge--itself not a horrible thing since it was righteous anger--but he treated Namine and Roxas as a means to an end and didn't care if they suffered or died.
 

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I just think its silly bringing all that cultural context when the series has two prominent characters fulfilling antagonistic/villain roles and then repenting for them. Of course KH is a product of its time and environment, but that doesn't excuse it.


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OneDandelion

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I just think its silly bringing all that cultural context when the series has two prominent characters fulfilling antagonistic/villain roles and then repenting for them. Of course KH is a product of its time and environment, but that doesn't excuse it.
Spoiler Spoiler Show
Aren't all stories variations of struggles brought about by human weakness and their subsequent redemption? I mean its not like these characters are even close to being the same - they have varying degrees of weaknesses that make them turn to "darkness" and varying degrees of redemption.

I would probably be on the side that argues Xehanort wasn't even really redemeed in the truest sense of the word, but If you want a another unapologetic villain you have maleficent, and at an even further extreme you have Vanitas - but being a villain because thats who you are (as if you have no other choice) doesn't really make an interesting antagonist either.
 
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