Organization XIII's hearts

[Niha]

nope that's why they r called heartless lol

 

[Smile]

That wouldn't make sense, though. The one that escapes and floats is the one that holds the feelings, spirit, memories [and the fact that the actual characters refer to this in the video, as proven with "kokoro", makes it permanent]. The real organ stays where it's suppose to be: inside.

Them pulling this sort of thing would certainly be something KH-appropriate. Nobodies aren't human beings, after all. Their basic demand is to have the Body be ravaged by the Darkness - hence why Kairi dearest couldn't cast off one on her own.
Nobodies don't 'die' when you beat them up though. The Soul doesn't leave the Body when it should've for a normal human being. They instead fade into Darkness, not have the heart stop beating. They're hardly functioning as normal human bodies; why should their anatomy be the same as humans', especially when you consider the other types of Nobodies roaming around?
And can you say that Sora, as the Heart, would also need to have organs? He has the outside appearance of a human being, but he has no Body to 'back it up'.

If Nomura wanted it to be the organ-al heart, he would have used the correct Japanese character, shinzou. But no, we're talking of the metaphorical heart here. And this is what KH centers on.

KH uses metaphors for its reality and logic. You can't just say 'ok so we have the metaphor, and then we have the stuff that works like in our reality'.

Yeah, but there's a limit. Sora's human. Not some alien. A body cannot exist without blood.

A body also doesn't fade to Darkness when you beat it up, like I said before. It breaks up and dies. Nobodies don't follow that. How would you explain that if you say they're the human body as we know it?

 

[Silent hero_]

Pretty good answer


As far as we know they have all the organs a normal human has, but lack the ability to have emotions for the "KH heart".
In a sense they do have hearts, just not the ones that will let them have feelings.

So, Demyx didn't lie then?

 

[WilliamTheWise]

So, Demyx didn't lie then?

He did lie, He was still talking about the emotional heart. He did it as a saving grace to protect the act he and the other Organization members are trying to pull in order to decieve there enemies by showing emotions. Which failed since we knew that they don't have emotion since they don't have hearts.

 

[Silent hero_]

He did lie, He was still talking about the emotional heart. He did it as a saving grace to protect the act he and the other Organization members are trying to pull in order to decieve there enemies by showing emotions. Which failed since we knew that they don't have emotion since they don't have hearts.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I was a little bit confused about the "organ heart" and the "emotional heart".

 

[*TwilightNight*]

Them pulling this sort of thing would certainly be something KH-appropriate. Nobodies aren't human beings, after all. Their basic demand is to have the Body be ravaged by the Darkness - hence why Kairi dearest couldn't cast off one on her own.
Nobodies don't 'die' when you beat them up though. The Soul doesn't leave the Body when it should've for a normal human being. They instead fade into Darkness, not have the heart stop beating. They're hardly functioning as normal human bodies; why should their anatomy be the same as humans', especially when you consider the other types of Nobodies roaming around?
And can you say that Sora, as the Heart, would also need to have organs? He has the outside appearance of a human being, but he has no Body to 'back it up'.

It's not like it's apparent to us, or were shown a lesson, on how a Nobodies' build-up is. This is mostly explained below.

KH uses metaphors for its reality and logic. You can't just say 'ok so we have the metaphor, and then we have the stuff that works like in our reality'.

Then pray tell, what is Sora made of? Gas? Where do tears come from? How do limbs move? Where do the muscles come from? The hair? Eyes? How did he grow?

A body also doesn't fade to Darkness when you beat it up, like I said before. It breaks up and dies. Nobodies don't follow that. How would you explain that if you say they're the human body as we know it?

How would you explain why Nomura didn't use the "organ heart" Japanese character, shinzou, to describe it then? If the pink floating heart was indeed the organ, then it could be easily be placed as shinzou, and will have the same meaning as the English heart: which means everything. He didn't. The character used, instead, is "kokoro", which in Japenese is used to describe only the "feelings, emotions, spirit" of the heart. Nomura diddn't condense it to just that for the lulz, you know. Case in point - Axel and Roxas eat, so they have to put the ice cream somewhere, which would be the stomach. In the Novels, it is described that Axel's ribs hurt. And hurt equals to nerves. Larxene and Naminé have boobs. They sleep.

Perhaps when they turn into Nobodies, a bit of their make-up changes, and that's why they fade they do [I think in the Ansem Reports, it is report they have weaker skin? I forget where I heard this]. There might be some minor differences for a Nobody compared to a human's, to explain the outcome. It's not like we know the statistics of everything yet, or the transition that it goes through [we were only explained the simplistic stuff of when the "metaphorical heart" leaves. And I doubt that unless Nomura wants to get scientifical, we ever will get deeper into this]. But, we can safely say that they have human anatomy, which is what it's leading up to with all of this rounded.

Unless you can sort all that as something else?

 

[KHNigratoe]

So I have a question for you guys? Do the members of Organization XIII actally have hearts meaning the actual organ that pumps blood and circulates through out the body or do they not have one what so ever meaning no organ and no pulsating?

I know they don't have hearts when it comes to feelings and emotions, but what about pain and nerves and the actual human parts of the body such as all of the organs? So in otherwords is the anatomy of an organization member the same as a human or does it have some exceptions due to them being nobodies but with human appearance?
Please feel free to share.

Well, I'm sure they have actual organ hearts, or the would die, sientifically speaking,.

 

[Smile]

Then pray tell, what is Sora made of? Gas? Where do tears come from? How do limbs move? Where do the muscles come from? The hair? Eyes? How did he grow?

As a Heart? How'd I know. But I don't see why, when we know that the Heart Unlocker is such a special weapon thingie that doesn't really work on the Body so much as on the Heart, you'd expect it to break Sora's ribs.

How would you explain why Nomura didn't use the "organ heart" Japanese character, shinzou, to describe it then?

Because of the double meaning.

Case in point - Axel and Roxas eat, so they have to put the ice cream somewhere, which would be the stomach. In the Novels, it is described that Axel's ribs hurt. And hurt equals to nerves. Larxene and Naminé have boobs. They sleep.

I'd like to see a Creeper Nobody sleep and eat. Or a Dusk enjoying a good sea salt ice cream. Then we can properly have this debate seriously.

But, we can safely say that they have human anatomy, which is what it's leading up to with all of this rounded.

Not really, no, we can't really know that :\

Unless you can sort all that as something else?

Yeah, old habits kicking in from when they were Somebodies, and having Hearts strong enough to leave those imprints on them.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

As a Heart? How'd I know. But I don't see why, when we know that the Heart Unlocker is such a special weapon thingie that doesn't really work on the Body so much as on the Heart, you'd expect it to break Sora's ribs.

Didn't you answer that with the Heart Unlocker focusing more on the magical aspect to it, and the (metaphorical)Heart? Which would make sense, considering Sora didn't cry out in pain as well. Last time I checked, a stab doesn't usually render people to get their ribs broken either, if you want to get physical.

Because of the double meaning.

Three characters in Japanese to use for certain aspects of the heart, and he gives a double meaning?

I'd like to see a Creeper Nobody sleep and eat. Or a Dusk enjoying a good sea salt ice cream. Then we can properly have this debate seriously.

As I said, different make-up. We've seen it in heroes , shows, movies. They can stretch like rubber. Do the impossible. Does that make them less human and not have human anatomy even if they are from Earth? No. They just have a sort of change that allows what they already have to push the limits of reality.

Not really, no, we can't really know that :\

In my opinion, we do.

Yeah, old habits kicking in from when they were Somebodies, and having Hearts strong enough to leave those imprints on them.

And that has to do with them having Organs how?

 

[Smile]

Three characters in Japanese to use for certain aspects of the heart, and he gives a double meaning?

Yes.

As I said, different make-up. We've seen it in heroes , shows, movies. They can stretch like rubber. Do the impossible. Does that make them less human and not have human anatomy even if they are from Earth? No. They just have a sort of change that allows what they already have to push the limits of reality.

Yes, but they are human when it all comes down to it. Nobodies aren't.

In my opinion, we do.

So long as we have the basic understanding this is what this is all about.

And that has to do with them having Organs how?

That them eating isn't any indication whatsoever towards them having stomachs or a digestion system.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

Yes.

Faulty.

He would have used it shinzou, and have it be in the game that this means the exact thing as our English heart.

He didn't.

Yes, but they are human when it all comes down to it. Nobodies aren't.

Fish aren't refer to as humans. Cats aren't refer to as humans. Dogs. Lions. And they are all creatures that have the same type of anatomy to a large extent.

Not to mention, I'd like to find out how Organization XIII functions without brains. Even that is pushing it.

So long as we have the basic understanding this is what this is all about.

Not if it's made somewhat clear that this is the metaphorical heart they speak of instead of the organ.

That them eating isn't any indication whatsoever towards them having stomachs or a digestion system.

Then where does it go? The ribs? The nerves that gives pain that I described? I mean, if I was eating something that didn't go anywhere, it would take much more than getting used to than not having a Heart, I'd say.

 

[Smile]

Faulty.

He would have used it shinzou, and have it be in the game that this means the exact thing as our English heart.

He didn't.

Well hello Nomura. Care to explain what went on through his mind for the rest of the series, too?

Not to mention, I'd like to find out how Organization XIII functions without brains. Even that is pushing it.

I'd like to know how Heartless function. Oh wait, they don't go by that sort of logic, I forgot.

Not if it's made somewhat clear that this is the metaphorical heart they speak of instead of the organ.

To you. Which leads back to the matter of opinion.

Then where does it go? The ribs? The nerves that gives pain that I described? I mean, if I was eating something that didn't go anywhere, it would take much more than getting used to than not having a Heart, I'd say.

Uh, the Darkness ate it?

 

[*TwilightNight*]

Well hello Nomura. Care to explain what went on through his mind for the rest of the series, too?

Granted, I agree.

But I don't think is as far as Nomura screwing up and not knowing his own native language, and what to do with it.

I'd like to know how Heartless function. Oh wait, they don't go by that sort of logic, I forgot.

Heartless are different.

Because they are made of nothing, all Darkness. They will be the exact "gas" part, only in form and shape.

Nobody is the Body and Soul.

To you. Which leads back to the matter of opinion.

Not only to me. Because it looks like the most probable as of the moment given what we've got.

Uh, the Darkness ate it?

-_-

 

[IDX Rider]

I always thought that when they're talking about the heart, they didn't mean the organ. The way they make it seem that they call what gives us emotions is our hearts.

A Nobody (using Org. XIII's members) is just a body with no heart. Devoid of emotion. They don't feel happiness or sorrow (I think Axel says this). You guys are talking about the human anatomy and are trying to place it IN A WORLD THAT IS INSIDE A VIDEO GAME. If you want to talk about nature and such, every living thing has some kind of a brain or "control center". Without this, they can't do anything. They can't even rely on instincts (in a Heartless's sense, their natural instinct is to capture hearts) because it all deals with their brain or a "control center" of some kind. Now because we are talking about a video game, maybe a Heartless's control center is elsewhere; not inside their bodies.

Now Org. XIII is supposed to be made up of an advanced form of a Nobody. If I remember correctly, their original selves must have a strong heart before turning into a Heartless in order to simultaneously create a Nobody that is pretty much "self aware". They can act on their own, do what they want, etc. BUT! They can't feel emotion due to them losing their heart; the thing that makes them feel, not the organ. And when they die, they don't decompose or anything because technically they weren't supposed to exist or because they are called "Nobodies", they truly are an empty shell. There is literally nothing inside them. Instead, because the of the KH universe, they are only able to "be" because of some kind of magic. So they just disappear.

 

[Smile]

Granted, I agree.

But I don't think is as far as Nomura screwing up and not knowing his own native language, and what to do with it.

See, that's the fun part
1) unless you wanna correct me, it's not your native language.
2) because it's his native language, he might not use it in the sense you'd expect him to. Japanese in particular love messing around with languages.

Heartless are different.

Because they are made of nothing, all Darkness. They will be the exact "gas" part, only in form and shape.

No, they're made from the Hearts. They're not nothing.

Nobody is the Body and Soul.

And a hell lot of Darkness.

Not only to me. Because it looks like the most probable as of the moment given what we've got.

Yet it's still debatable.

-_-

That's an intelligent counter-argument. You can't ignore that the Darkness can really mess things up in this matter.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

See, that's the fun part
1) unless you wanna correct me, it's not your native language.
2) because it's his native language, he might not use it in the sense you'd expect him to. Japanese in particular love messing around with languages.

Not my native language, but unless you can find some other written characters that takes away from what a Heart in Japanese is, then point still stands. I don't see why Nomura would go out of his way to confuse us with language if he didn't mean that what they spoke of is the emotional Heart. Personally, it seems stupid. And this isn't even worth defending anymore.

No, they're made from the Hearts. They're not nothing.

They're not nothing, but they are definitely Darkness personified in every, possible, aspect. The only thing they have is the metaphorical Hearts. Otherwise, that's all they hold.

And a hell lot of Darkness.

Not complete darkness.

You still never answered how their make-up can be different, but still retain their vital organs. As I said, super heroes go through it every time. Does that make them less human?

No.

Yet it's still debatable.

To you, perhaps. You're the one that keeps disagreeing. Without much basis in countering most of what I said, on top of that.

That's an intelligent counter-argument. You can't ignore that the Darkness can really mess things up in this matter.

Because there is no counter-argument. Saying that a Nobody is completely made out of Darkness is fruitless. They have human anatomy. Axel has been described to have ribs, he feels pain. Him and Roxas eat. They spill tears.

Seriously. You can't disprove this whatsoever. Which in turn, again, makes this utterly pointless. Hence, why you get the, "-_-".

 

[Smile]

I never said Nobodies were made only of Darkness. Just that I find it hard to believe they truly hold the same make-up as human beings, especially when you see the various types of Nobodies, and them breaking basic human-physiology laws.

To me, them not dying but fading away is basis enough they're not just the bodies as were left behind when the Heart left them.
That goes to KH1 Kairi, not to Roxas.

 

[Key of Valor]

I think there are reasons supporting both sides of the
argument concerning whether Nobodies have some
sort of anatomy or not. I prefer the idea that they
do have similar elements of the human anatomy,
if only just because how some Nobodies seem to
be able to age, grow, and physically develop.

 

[Smile]

The only Nobodies who truly seem to have aged however are Roxas and Namine, two Nobodies whose Hearts weren't in the form of Heartless. We can't say what applies to them applies to the rest, even if we do say they aged, and not that the programmers were lazy with making the sprites.

I'm probably wrong about this, but I do remember thinking that Sora looked like KH1 Roxas in the cut scene he wakes up in and when he gets up from bed, it's Sora we partially see (the pants reached his knees as opposed to mid-thigh as befitting a grown up KH1 Sora). If that's right, Roxas didn't age, so the only Nobody that remotely had that possibly apply to him - didn't live up to it.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

As I said, they can hold the human anatomy, but their make-up can have some differences that can have them disintegrate the way they do. You see this all the time when seeing people with powers. You seemed to go for that, and yet, we're still in the whole "they have organs" debate. I think they have organs, or Axel wouldn't have anything else unless he's imagining he has ribs and pain that don't exist.

Growing physically to use is not liable on both sides, since we haven't seen any Nobody grow as of yet except those who are of special birth.