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Thanks for explainning it :3
So, you mean the apprentices may get a human-shaped form of Heartless?
Organization Heartless.
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Thanks for explainning it :3
So, you mean the apprentices may get a human-shaped form of Heartless?
I think that's only happen on Xehanort Heartless.
An Sephiroth0812 made a very good point on the heartless and nobody thing
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I think that's only happen on Xehanort Heartless.
An Sephiroth0812 made a very good point on the heartless and nobody thing
Yes, Xehanort's Heartless is a friggin' over-exception that still isn't explained fully. The bit that Sora and Xehanort are similar and special cases as heartless refer to their still intact mind and emotions, not the appearance.
Sora became a normal heartless which was special in that it retained Sora's conscience and will. Xehanort however was special in this regard and on top of it also became not a "normal" heartless.
So no, the apprentices surely don't get "human"-shaped heartless, as human-shaped heartless should not exist...Ansem, Seeker of Darkness is a highly rare exception/abomination.
The stronger a heartless is, the more beastly and monstrous it becomes.
The stronger a nobody is, the more human-like it becomes.
Thanks stars, I try hard to make sense, lol.
But it has also happened with Sora.
We do not know what Apprentice Xehanort's Heartless originally was. We only know that, by the time the game is, he has a humanoid appearance, and by the end of the game, he has a human form.
It is blatantly obvious in Kingdom Hearts 1. Kairi "healed" shadow Sora, and his Heartless retained its shape. Do you think she returned his body and soul to his heart and he became a Somebody? Because Roxas is still Sora's Nobody, and Sora is still a Heartless for the rest of that game, and the entirety of Chain of Memories.
No they can't. A Dusk can not retain its Somebody's shape. A shadow can retain its Somebody's shape. Humanoid Nobodies never loose their Somebody's shape, which means that Nobodies don't "retain" their shape (the humanoid ones never loose them).
You didn't even know that Heartless can retain their shapes, so excuse me for ignoring this.
Apprentice Xehanort wrote that. How does it hint that his future self isn't a Heartless?
Where are we told this? That is what I asked you. Obviously, you think we are told this or shown this, otherwise you would not have said it.
Kingdom Hearts is "the heart of all hearts"; it is where hearts go when they are released of their ties to the Realm of Light.
I wasn't claiming that what I said was true. I was saying that we don't know what makes Heartless boss-level.
See above.
... :| I believe you agree with me.
I said that the Keyblade of People's Hearts does not weaken hearts, but it does release their hearts to the mercy of the darkness around them.
The fact that I don't recall it being canon? This is the most obvious reason, after all.
Um... why did you post that? I've been agreeing with that point this entire thread.
I was talking about: "the amount of darkness dictates the strength of the heartless "
You say "long ago", but I read "magic".
I said "canon", not "did Nomura say that?"
The only thing that is canon is what is shown in the work. When the creator(s) of said work claim something, well, "The Author is Dead," which means that the creator's word is just as significant as the audience's.
Canon =/= Creator's Word
If XH was once a normal Heartless that became the XH we know, how come Xemnas retained his memories? More importantly, how could XH revert back to himself again? I take it that "light" had to do with Sora reverting back.
Sora was a floating heart, not quite a Heartless. A Heartless is a heart enveloped and controlled by darkness.
All Nobodies retain/have a humanoid shape. Any Heartless that reverts back to normal isn't a Heartless anymore.
Floating Hearts =/= Heartless. Case in point, Riku.
The fact that he shouldn't have been able to write that down in the first place.
No clue where we found it, though I feel as if i read it somewhere reliable, like in the game. Really though, why else would Sora turn into a mere Shadow?
Then why does he bother telling us these things at all?
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oe98
respect
dont meet many others who have the same opinion of the author is dead
its overused, but nomura can do what he wants. half the time people say he retcons canon, but nope, half the time he retcons his own interviews, not whats in game.
respect
dont meet many others who have the same opinion of the author is dead
its overused, but nomura can do what he wants. half the time people say he retcons canon, but nope, half the time he retcons his own interviews, not whats in game.
It happened NOT to Sora, Ansem SoD and Sora are not the same case.
Their only similarity is that they both retained their mind and will.
We actually do know it was at least humanoid as he moved around in that brown cloak at the beginning of KH 1.
I will quote it for ya:
Ansem Report 12 said:
Do you get what I mean? Xehanort didn't even transform into a common heartless, he himself takes special note of this, Sora did become a common heartless, a lowly shadow.
Of course a dusk cannot retain the shape of its former human self because the heart that formed it is not strong enough. It's strong enough to form a nobody, but not a human-looking one.
A shadow can retain its somebody's shape...LOL, sorry but I never heard bigger crap, there is no evidence that a heartless ever became human-shaped again.
Human-looking nobodies do indeed have slight changes, they never look exactly like their original somebody, yet they also still remain in one shape and doesn't change it, the same goes for heartless...a shadow can't become a darkball all of a sudden.
I didn't know because it's false, buddy, lol.
Heartless cannot retain or regain their shapes!
So, here we are, now I see what mistake you made and why you think heartless can retain, or rather, regain their shape.
The "shadow" Sora was a heartless, yes, but when Kairi purified Sora he was no longer a heartless!!!
Sora was essentially a floating heart given a physical shape through Kairis light, heartless are beings of darkness!
When Sora regains human shape he's no longer a heartless, yet also not a complete being, Xemnas comments on that too.
As you said, Sora's original body and Soul where occupied by Roxas during the time, yet Sora could still function completely normal because Kairi gave him a new shape.
Would you also describe Riku as a heartless? Because when Riku projected himself from Ansem SoD to protect Kairi, Donald and Goofy and fought and internal battle with him.
Ansem kicked Rikus heart out and it reformed a new shape in the RoD where he met Mickey, Riku was, until Sora defeated Ansem SoD, also a floating heart just like Sora was.
Oh yes, what the Keyblade of People's hearts does we agree, also on the bit what determines the form of a nobody it seems. I didn't notice it at first, so sorry, the fundamental differences really seem to be only in our perceptions how the form of a heartless is determined.
Just because you follow that assumption it doesn't mean everyone has to.
Besides, "The Author is Dead," -approach is normally for works that are already finished...and I have yet to see people who dare to i.e. doubt anything Tolkien said about his world of Arda, and that author really is "dead".
And furthermore, as long as the creator's word is not really contradicted by the work itself, it is fine to assume it's canonical.
Hello? The creator is the one who actually thought out the story itself, it comes from the very mind of that person and if this person clarifies something on the mysteries of the series/the work it has a certain weight to it.
Just like i.e. J.K. Rowling confirmed that Dumbledore was gay or that she knows exactly how the process of creating a horcrux works, yet doesn't reveal it in any of the books themselves and said she will reveal it later in the encyclopedia she is working on.
Yet still, I can't find spoken or written evidence now so on this matter let's just agree to disagree for now. Maybe someone other can find the evidence faster, but if I find it be sure I'll let you know.
I always go with this explanation about the strength rating of heartless because it was nearly universally accepted in the Fandom.
To be honest I never heard about a heartless having multiple hearts...
Just to clarify it, I'm not intending to sound anyhow mean or insulting...so if anything there sounds offensive I'm sorry for that...
Spoiler
To be honest I never heard about a heartless having multiple hearts...
Well, there's XH...Since Xehanort did create a Heartless, even if it was a messed up one.
@Swordsaint:
This is because the heartless absorbs the corrupted data to strengthen itself, and also "devours" the powers of other data heartless slain by Data Sora.
Yet, if I remember correct, when it used up most of that power and is defeated several times it goes back to its original shadow form in the last round of the fight.
@Eraser Rain:
Yeah, but I already excluded Ansem SoD as a real special case. He also had multiple hearts as a full being, and I doubt every heartless boss comes from a being that had multiple hearts.
The big dragon heartless in Land of Dragons in KH 2 is even specifically said to be a dragon turned into a heartless by Xigbar.
This is because the heartless absorbs the corrupted data to strengthen itself, and also "devours" the powers of other data heartless slain by Data Sora.
Yet, if I remember correct, when it used up most of that power and is defeated several times it goes back to its original shadow form in the last round of the fight.
@Eraser Rain:
Yeah, but I already excluded Ansem SoD as a real special case. He also had multiple hearts as a full being, and I doubt every heartless boss comes from a being that had multiple hearts.
The big dragon heartless in Land of Dragons in KH 2 is even specifically said to be a dragon turned into a heartless by Xigbar.
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How does the dragon in Land of Dragon turn into heartless by Xigbar? xD
I'll get this one question at a time:
1) Xemnas went looking for the Chamber of Waking, which is where Ventus was. Ansem, Seeker of Darkness went after Kingdom Hearts. Master Xehanort went after Kingdom Hearts. Terra tried to protect his friends (to Terra, friends is everything).
It makes sense that when Apprentice Xehanort's Heartless became a human form again that not all of the memories went into the Heartless. I say this because with Sora, only one Somebody's amount of memories went back to Sora (which was Sora's memories). I'm saying that it is likely that it is a "one Heartless, one person's amount of memories returns". I doubt it matters which person's memories it was as long as it was one.
But what we are shown is that one person's memories likely returned to the Heartless, which would be the person looking for Kingdom Hearts.
Xemnas was looking for Kingdom Hearts, too, yes, but that was a guise to get the other Nobodies to do what he wanted-- his focus seemed to be with Castle Oblivion and its secrets.
2) We are shown that it is possible for a Heartless to retain its Somebody's shape. Understanding that Heartless can be sentient (as opposed to "are"), and understanding that Apprentice Xehanort's Heartless was sentient, we can understand that his Heartless would likely try anything to get what it wanted-- "If there's a will, there's a way."
It's likely that the Heartless went out in search of a way to change its shape, and it obviously found one. I'm not saying that we (or I) know how the Heartless changed its shape, as we're only shown one way to do that, and that requires a being with a heart without darkness.
Also, I don't understand what you mean by "I take it that 'light' had to do with Sora turning back." Can you please explain?
A floating heart is a heart-shaped intangible/tangible (we don't know which) object that floats to Kingdom Hearts.
A Heartless is a heart made physical that is surrounded by darkness and goes out in search of hearts. The darkness doesn't control it. We are shown with Riku in Reverse/Rebirth that the darkness isn't some malignant creature that tries to destroy everything that isn't darkness.
Darkness is a form of energy that is different from light, which is also a form of energy. We can see this because both light and darkness are everywhere, and both things interact and change things just by the amount of one or the other in an area or a heart.
When I said "Sora Heartless"/"Sora's Heartless", I meant the Heartless that retained its Somebody's shape. I guess we were using different terms with the same meaning? But yeah, Sora wasn't a Nobody or a heart enveloped by darkness or a soul or whatever for the rest of the first game and the entirety of Chain of Memories. He definitely was not a Somebody, which I understand that you agree with.
The Dusks, Creepers, Dancers, Samurai, Berserkers, Sorcerers, Gamblers, Snipers, Dragoons, and Assassins would like to have a word with you.
I'll give you that one, 'cause I was just being lazy and not saying "Sora's Heartless without the darkness around it/Sora's heart with its Somebody's shape". There really should be a name for these things, but so far there have only been two of them, and they appear to be exceptionally rare.
"Case in point"? Riku wasn't a Heartless, nor was he ever a heart with its Somebody's shape.
No, Apprentice Xehanort was obviously literate; he was a student/apprentice of Ansem the Wise.
Unless you mean to suggest that Apprentice Xehanort was a Heartless at the time? I don't get what you are trying to suggest other than he was illiterate and unable to write down the reports...
I remember reading it from somewhere that he has little darkness in his heart; it is the fact that I don't remember whether or not it was in-game or in-interview that I don't find it a reliable statement. Like I said before, The Author is Dead; just 'cause Nomura said it doesn't mean its canon/accurate/infallible/true.
Sora could have become a shadow for any number of reasons. See TVTropes' "Wild Mass Guessing", "Epileptic Trees", and "Word of God" (I guess). Obviously, see TVTropes' "The Author is Dead" as well.
You are asking why a person who has spent hours upon hours upon hours would ever want to tell people the finer things about the thing that he has worked on.
"Why wouldn't he want to tell people these things?" is the better question.
But just because he wants to doesn't mean that his word has more impact than my own, or yours, or Sephiroth0812's, or Lady Gaga's, or Obama's, or your mom's.
Why thank you ^-^. Props to anyone who says The Author is Dead. His interviews are clung to like liferafts for some reason, and fans call them canon. At best, they're fanon.
xD His interviews can never retcon canon. The canon supersedes the interviews.
Emotes because I was being much more laid back ^-^.
On to other replies! =D
Uh, we do not know what case Ansem, Seeker of Darkness fits into exactly, but we have seen a Heartless retain its Somebody's shape before, which means that it can happen, which means that there is no grounds in saying that it didn't happen when we do not know exactly how it happened in Ansem, Seeker of Darkness' case.
They retained their sentience and they also ended up retaining their Somebody's shape. Did you play Kingdom Hearts 1?
I said, "We do not know what Apprentice Xehanort's Heartless originally was. We only know that, by the time the game is, he has a humanoid appearance, and by the end of the game, he has a human form." Your statement agrees with the bolded part.
Hmm, I will have to do more research to keep going on about Apprentice Xehanort's Heartless. It's possible that his memories were with his body... but it's also possible that he truly is a special case because he had two whole hearts within his body (Two at least. I know too little of what happened with Master Eraqus to say otherwise)... Huh...
Well, I'll have to give this more thought, but it's possible that it was Master Xehanort's heart leaving the Xehanort+Terra combination. Like I said, I have to give this more thought, and I'm trying to get through this reply (I have a lot to reply to ;A
.When I said, "A Heartless retained its Somebody's shape," I obviously meant, "A Heartless that had lost its original shape regained it," and I was using the same word ("retain") when I said "A Nobody can't retain its Somebody's shape," which implies "A Nobody that had lost its original shape can't regain its original shape." I'd like to make the correction now. I'll use "regain" from this point onward (I might have used it before in this reply, but I don't remember, and the point is that I'm making the correction now rather than later on).
Sora. Tail-end of Kingdom Hearts 1. He was in his Somebody's shape the entire time through Chain of Memories.
The members of the Organization would be threatened with being turned into a Dusk if they did not obey the Organization. Obviously, you are wrong. And you are obviously wrong with the point about the Heartless, as Sora went from shadow to his Somebody's shape.
Okay. But the canon proves you incorrect.
The point is that a Heartless is in essence a heart, and the Sora-that-retained-his-Somebody's-shape is in essence a heart. You can use all the "lulz" and exclamation marks that you want; they will not convince me that you are correct.
Notsomuch. As I said above, a floating heart is a heart-shaped intangible/tangible (we don't quite know which) thing that floats to Kingdom Hearts. A Heartless is a heart covered in darkness. Sora was a heart that regained its Somebody's shape. Sora was not a floating heart. And in essence, all three of those things are hearts. Just hearts, and nothing more.
Woah, no she didn't. She basically used her Princess of Heart powers to make the darkness go away. The Princesses of Heart of beings with only light in their hearts, and we can assume that it might work something like magnetism when it has to do with darkness as energy. She did not give Sora anything. She took away-- no, she didn't even take; she forced away the darkness over his heart.
Excuse me for not recalling this. And since it is Kingdom Hearts 1 that we are talking about, I do not believe that you know what you are talking about. If you want to convince me of this point after all the things that you mysteriously missed, then please provide some actual evidence instead of just your word.
The only thing that is canon is what is shown in the work. This is not my assumption. What the word "canon" means is "Facts about a work, whether it be the plot or mythology." The only thing that actually gives us that is the work itself. Everything else is "secondary" at best. The interviews are basically fanon. It isn't even like Nomura is the writer of the entire game; what I mean is that Nomura isn't the only one affecting the end product, and other people's interpretations (other people who are working on the piece, that is) will affect the end product.
For example, in the original script, Axel died when he fought Roxas in the Old Mansion. Other people on the team working on the game liked him so much that it was changed so that he lived through that. Their bias changed what Nomura wanted, and we can't trust that what Nomura says about Axel after that point in the plot is accurate, and we can't trust that he isn't saying things just so other people on the team don't get upset with him (he has to work with/for them, after all).
You claimed that what I said was an "assumption", yet you assume that Kingdom Hearts 1, Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories, Kingdom Hearts 2, Kingdom Hearts: 358/2 Days, and Kingdom Hearts: Birth by Sleep are not finished? Last I checked, they are in my collection of games, which means that they have been published and are done.
Last I checked, I didn't say anything about Tolkien. And I also didn't say anything about any "Arda". Didn't Tolkien publish a book or two that told people about the setting of-- no, I'm not changing the subject.
See TVTropes' "Critical Existence Failure" or "Author Existence Failure" or "Writer Existence Failure" or something along those lines. The Author is Dead doesn't mean that the author is literally dead.
1) You complain about me "assuming" about things that I wasn't assuming, and you say that it is fine to assume...
2) Nomura contradicts himself sometimes, while contradicting canon other times.
But he isn't the only one working on it. As I said above: he wanted Axel to die when Axel fought Roxas in the Old Mansion. Obviously, Nomura is not the only one to influence the final product.
1) J.K. Rowling is the only one directly-- oh wait, the publisher also influences the final product.
2) See TVTropes' "Word of Gay" and "Word of God".
3) An encyclopedia would be treated as canonical as long as the original creator approves it or works on it. It's basically revealing the deeper aspects of the piece that was never touched upon by/with the main characters.
4) The Author is Dead means that Dumbledore might be straight, might be gay, might be bi, might be asexual. In fact, I always thought that he was asexual, since the topic of love and sex never occurred with Dumbledore.
5) This thread is about Kingdom Hearts, so let us keep it that way.
Just because the Majority says that hispanics are satanists or that homosexuals are pedophiles does not mean that hispanics are satanists or that homomsexuals are pedophiles. And to connect that with this topic in a clear manner: just because the majority of the fandom agrees with something, that does not necessarily mean that that something is true or accurate or canon.
To be honest I never heard about a heartless having multiple hearts...
... I don't recall saying that a Heartless had multiple hearts.
But I do know that Somebodies can have multiple hearts within them. And because I know that you did not play Kingdom Hearts 1, I shall list it out for you!
In Sora:
Sora's Heart
Kairi's Heart
Ven's Heart (injured/incomplete)
To be clear, a winking smilely face is difficult to believe to not be an attempt to insult or something of that nature.
Crystal said:
It is said in Jiminy's journal that the dragon Heartless in the Land of Dragons was a mountain spirit that became a Heartless and attacked Sora and Co.
I didn't think Xigbar had anything to do with it other than manipulating events.
Both XH and Xemnas retained their "Apprentice Xehanort memories," whoever they belonged to. XH was still the researcher at heart who returned to his reports, and Xemnas was still the Apprentice who hated AtW.
I'll agree with you on the sentience part.
The element of light had to play a part in Sora's rebirth of sorts. I'd discuss it now, but I think we've got our hands full for now.
If going by those definitions, neither Sora nor XH were those.
Ah, kk then.
What I meant is that all Nobodies are a bit humanoid because of their nature; Notice how all lesser Nobodies have arms, legs, bodies, etc., as opposed to the monstrous bodies of Heartless.
You don't recall it probably because the scene that explained this was in Final Mix.
YouTube - Kingdom Hearts: Final Mix - Riku in Darkness (Translated)
This is what I meant.
It's more like fans are interested in his interpretation of the series. That being said, the fact that his interpretation of the series is more synonymous to the outcome of it than anyone else's is good enough reason for me to believe in him.
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